#72: Dr. Reshma Shah - Food and Family
Reshma Shah, MD
Last week, we spoke with registered dietitian and author, Brenda Davis, about her latest work called, Nourish: The Definitive Plant-Based Nutrition Guide for Families--With Tips & Recipes for Bringing Health, Joy, & Connection to Your Dinner Table.
This week, we continue with part two of this important topic with co-author, Dr. Reshma Shah. Dr. Shah is a board-certified pediatrician, mother, plant-based home-cook, teacher, and student. She has nearly two decades of experience caring for children and families, and currently sees patients at the Santa Clara Valley Medical Center, and serves as an affiliate clinical instructor at Stanford University School of Medicine.
We know it’s hard to bring an entire family on board the plant-based journey with you because there is a real fear around community, judgment, and nutrition requirements. We also know that you want what’s best for your families and it’s time we have positive conversations around food — with your doctors, friends, and especially your family.
Dr. Shah reveals some of the tools, resources, and recipes from the book that will bring joy, abundance, and nutrition back to the family table. It will also instill confidence in knowing that you’re making powerful and positive decisions for the benefit of your entire family for years to come. It's never too late to make changes and bring the family along the adventure with you.
Episode and PLANTSTRONG Resources:
Nourish: The Definitive Plant-Based Nutrition Guide for Families
PLANTSTRONG Rescue 10x - Hop on the waitlist for our next session.
PLANTSTRONG Meal Planner - Save $10 off the annual plan with code: PLANTSTRONG
PLANTSTRONG Foods - Pizza Crust is Back in Stock. Bookmark this page for upcoming food announcements!
Dr. Reshma Shah:
When we label foods as good or bad, it's not such a far leap to saying, "I was good or bad for eating that food." Obviously, we want to optimize health and we want our kids to thrive, but we also want to nurture the relationship around feeding, and I think that piece is critical. And when you label foods as good or bad, you do two things. One, there's a lot of judgment. So am I a bad parent for giving my child these foods? Is my child bad for eating these foods?
Dr. Reshma Shah:
The other thing that we do that might not be as obvious is, is we actually set up this hierarchy around food where children believe that well, broccoli or kale should not be eaten because those don't taste good. I just have to eat those foods in order to get the good foods that I really want.
Rip Esselstyn:
Season three of the Plantstrong Podcast explores those Galileo moments where you seek to understand the real truth around your health, and dare to see the world through a different lens. This season we honor those courageous seekers who are paving the way for you and me. So grab your telescope, point it towards your future and let's get plant-strong together.
Rip Esselstyn:
Hello and thanks for tuning to the Plantstrong Podcast where I proudly introduce you to the truth seekers and the change makers, those who are unafraid to dive deep into the waters of plant-based nutrition and share the results with the world. Last week, I interviewed the godmother of plant-based nutrition, Brenda Davis about her new book Nourish: The Definitive Plant-Based nutrition guide for families.
Rip Esselstyn:
This week I continue with part two of this important topic with co-author and pediatrician Dr. Reshma Shah. I know it's hard and sometimes seemingly impossible to bring an entire family on board the plant-based journey with you. There can be a lot of fear around community, judgment, nutrition, requirements. I understand. I also know that you want what's best for your families and it's time we have positive conversations around food with your doctors, friends, and especially your family.
Rip Esselstyn:
The book gives families, the tools, resources and even fun recipes that will bring joy, abundance and most importantly nutrition back to the family table. It will also instill confidence that you're making great decisions for the benefit of your family. Enjoy.
Rip Esselstyn:
Welcome to the Plantstrong Podcast. Today, I have the pleasure of speaking with Dr. Reshma Shah. She is the co-author of this fantastic book Nourish. As you know last week, we had Brenda Davis on the podcast. Brenda was telling us Reshma that you two met on an airplane, just happened to sit next to each other and then this kind of magic connection happened. How did that happen for you?
Dr. Reshma Shah:
As Brenda mentioned, we were both flying down to Southern California for the Plantrition Conference and she happened to be sitting in the same row with me. I mean, I felt like I was sitting next to a celebrity. There was Brenda Davis, she was one of the speakers of the conference. She's so humble and just so down to earth. She sort of introduced herself and she said, "Oh, I'm Brenda Davis. I'm actually one of the speakers of the conference and I thought..." "I know exactly who you are. You don't have to introduce yourself."
Dr. Reshma Shah:
We ended up just chatting like old friends the entire flight down and then she offered me a ride in her car to the conference. So we continued talking. I think we just immediately took to one another and stayed in touch through the course of that year. And then the following year we met at the same conference. I remember the last day of the conference, we were having breakfast together and I was just asking her for professional advice because she's such a pioneer in the movement.
Dr. Reshma Shah:
She's been doing this for longer than... I feel like I'm such a newbie compared to her and I was just asking her for some professional advice and how she made her way. She just said, "Well, we could work on something together." My heart was just beating so fast. And on the plane ride back, I started drafting the notes for the book. So that's how it happened.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right. Is Nourish your first book?
Dr. Reshma Shah:
It's my first and only book.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. And how was that process for you of writing the book? Was it arduous? Was it fantastic? Just a combination of everything?
Dr. Reshma Shah:
Yeah. I mean, I think there were definitely moments of stress with certain deadlines and page counts and all those things, but I have to tell you that as a first-time writer, having a partner like Brenda was just so comforting and reassuring. I think we each had our ideas of what we wanted to sort of bring to the project. And I think because Brenda's written so many books and been so successful, she was really willing to let me contribute the ideas in terms of our kids are at different ages and we have different sets of experiences.
Dr. Reshma Shah:
So it was just such a wonderful partnership. I felt so comforted knowing that I had Brenda right next to me because she's just such a wealth of knowledge, and I feel like there's not a single question that I could have, that she is not going to know the answer to.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. She's like the human version of Google, right? When it comes to this.
Dr. Reshma Shah:
When it comes to plant-based nutrition, she absolutely is. It was such a collaborative effort. We each definitely had sections that we sort of took ownership of and that were predominantly ours, but the process was just a lot of back and forth and back and forth. I mean, of course it was stressful at moments, but it was really a labor of love and was such an honor and a joy and a pleasure to write it with her.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Well, I know that the book has been broken up into four main sections. What I really love to delve into with you today from Nourish is let's talk about Confidence, part three, because I think that to me is a place where I think a lot of families could use a lot of help especially with everything that's going on right now in the world. You've got all these amazing documentaries that are out there. You've got a climate emergency that is really threatening I think potentially our species.
Rip Esselstyn:
I think you have the continuing evolution of us as a species where we're kind of realizing eating animals isn't really in alignment with my values. So I think you have more and more families that are trying to come on board trying to figure it out and they're having a hard time doing it. So I'd love to talk with you about families and getting families on board, some of the struggles and all that stuff.
Rip Esselstyn:
Maybe we should start with this. As people are making the transition, I think that we sometimes classify certain foods as bad foods and good foods. And I think you guys are like we shouldn't do that. That's not good. So you want to talk about that?
Dr. Reshma Shah:
Yeah. I think it's such a critical conversation because when we label foods as good or bad, it's not such a far leap to saying, "I was good or bad for eating that food." Obviously, we want to optimize health and we want our kids to thrive, but we also want to nurture the relationship around feeding, and I think that piece is critical. And when you label foods as good or bad, you do two things. One, there's a lot of judgment. So am I a bad parent for giving my child these foods? Is my child bad for eating these foods?
Dr. Reshma Shah:
The other thing that we do that might not be as obvious is, is we actually set up this hierarchy around food where children believe that well broccoli or kale should not be eaten because those don't taste good. I just have to eat those foods in order to get the good foods that I really want.
Dr. Reshma Shah:
So I think every family is going to have their sort of own words and terminology that they use around these foods. Some people call it fun food. Some people call... And I think the more that we can sort of take these labels away and just encourage our children to eat a variety of nutritious foods without labeling them or without judging them, ultimately first they're going to eat more of the foods that we're sort of offering and secondly they're going to have a long long-lasting relationship that's grounded in joy and abundance around food.
Rip Esselstyn:
I want to dive into family meals because that to me, I look back on my childhood and that to me was really the cornerstone and the foundation of us as a family was every dinner we made that a huge priority and you are a huge advocate for that. And before I let you lose to talk about that, I just want to read a little passage from your book and this is why family meals matter, and you guys say, "In fact, some researcher researchers suggest that quote family meals have more to do with an adolescent's positive outcomes than socioeconomic status, family structure, after school activities, tutors or church. I couldn't agree more.
Dr. Reshma Shah:
Yeah. It's pretty powerful and just like you, I grew up in a very traditional Indian household. We had family dinner every single night together. I mean, the only exception was if somebody was at a friend's house or something like that. But it was every single night. And I think that, that is the foundation. You just set the expectation. I think today parents definitely face more challenges. I remember one time when my kids were a little bit younger, my parents were visiting you know before COVID-19 and my mom was sort of overwhelmed at the busyness of their schedules.
Dr. Reshma Shah:
She's like, "I don't understand how you do this. This one's got soccer practice and this one's got after school this and after school that." I think she was exhausted just looking at her schedule. So I think it's important to acknowledge that families are busy and it requires prioritizing things. And just as with when we talk about good food, bad food, I think passing judgment in terms of whether you're a family that has family meals and therefore you're a good parent or a good family versus a family that doesn't, it's all about sort of just making steps to incorporate this into your life.
Dr. Reshma Shah:
It's going to look different for different families and when we look at the research on families meals and some of the statistics that we cite, the meals that they sort of cite for research purposes is five or more meals eaten together as a family. But that doesn't mean you're not going to benefit from just starting at one and sort of gradually moving your way up. And I think it's the same way as when we talk about plant-based foods.
Dr. Reshma Shah:
Start where you are and gradually add in. There's also been research to show that it doesn't necessarily have to be the dinner time meal. I mean, I think for a lot of families it's the easiest time of day to come together, but it could be breakfast or even if you've got a kid that's got late night practice. When they come home and if they're eating a meal at home, sit with them at the table with a cup of tea.
Dr. Reshma Shah:
It's definitely about the food that's being served, but it's also about the time that you take to connect with one another and sort of slow down. We also talk a lot about strategies about what you should and try to avoid to do at the dinner table as well.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah so what are some what are some simple things. So I can tee you off because you have some stuff in your book, but you have something like set the table. Something as simple as set the table.
Dr. Reshma Shah:
Sometimes people will sort of construe that as like, "Oh, you want me to get flowers and fancy plates." It's not about that. I think it's just when you clear the table, just move all the papers and the schoolwork or whatever. Set the plates. We like using cloth napkins because it's better for the environment. It sort of signals to your family this is important and this is precious. So let's just sit together and it doesn't have to be about fancy plate wear or anything like that, but it's just about sort of setting an intention and saying, "This is important. I value this. Let's come together."
Rip Esselstyn:
Literally, we love dinner time. It's a 20, 30 minutes when we are all around that dinner table. We have a lazy Susan so it's a table.
Dr. Reshma Shah:
I love that.
Rip Esselstyn:
Then I'd say not every dinner, but typically maybe two or three dinners a week we go around and we do gratitudes and we talk about what we're grateful for. And as you guys so eloquently point out in the book, it also allows you to develop like some of your skills like just in speaking and putting your thoughts together, and just a lot of basic things that are going to help you out in life where you can do that every day.
Dr. Reshma Shah:
I think sometimes we can put a lot of pressure on ourselves like, "Okay, you're saying this is precious. I have to set the table. Now, we have to have these really meaningful conversations."
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, right.
Dr. Reshma Shah:
And that's not the idea. The idea is it's just a time for you to share about your day and studies have also looked at the idea of the conversations that we have. They allow kids to have a greater sense of family connectedness. So even stories about grandparents or when you were younger, it just makes them feel more resilient and provides them with a greater sense of family connectedness. It's an opportunity to sort of share your values, to share your traditions.
Dr. Reshma Shah:
It's one of those things where you nurture over time. It's not going to be these mind-blowing conversations every time, but it's a habit that you develop and I can tell you that in our family everyone sort of come... There's no there's no battle or fight against family members because it's just been... I sort of describe it like when you get into a car and you put your seatbelt on. It's just something you do. It's not something you argue over or you negotiate, it's just something that your family does. So for us family dinner has just become something that our family does.
Rip Esselstyn:
And how many children do you have and what are their ages?
Dr. Reshma Shah:
Yeah. So we have two kids. I've got a 15 year, almost 16 year old. Gosh, she's going to be 16 in just a few short weeks, and then an 18 year old.
Rip Esselstyn:
16 and 18. Wow. So they're almost out of the house.
Dr. Reshma Shah:
Yeah. My daughter was actually supposed to go all the way to college on the East Coast this fall. And with COVID and everything, she decided to sort of take some classes closer to home and we'll head off next year. So we get her for another year.
Rip Esselstyn:
So they're 16 and 18 and when did you start in earnest trying to get your family on board with the plant-based lifestyle?
Dr. Reshma Shah:
I think this is one of them this has been one of the interesting things in writing this book with Brenda. Her family started this way from like... I don't think her kids could remember really another way of eating. And that wasn't the case for our family. I grew up in a vegetarian household so it wasn't really foreign to me this idea of eating... We didn't call it this at the time, plant-based, plant-centered meals. That's kind of what I grew up on. Then I wasn't plant-based for a really long time especially in medical school and residency training.
Dr. Reshma Shah:
I ate all the hospital, cafeteria, fast food kind of things for a period of time. And then when I started having kids at the end of my training, I really started to become much more interested in terms of what I was feeling because we went through a lot of those struggles. My husband and I were both finishing our training and it was just about getting meals on the table quickly and I wanted to minimize the sort of arguing and fighting over food. So we did all the things like the tofu nuggets for the kids that they would be happy and separate meals. I would say when my kids became more school age, I really became interested in... I mean, we always cooked a lot at home. We always ate a lot of plant-centered plant-focused meals, but then in earnest, I would say it's been about 10-12 years.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh, wow.
Dr. Reshma Shah:
And it was a very gradual process for us. So first it was just about cooking more at home and doing all those things. And then the more I started to learn, I came to understand that what my parents sort of raised us on was actually the way we were supposed to be eating. So gradually came back to more of a plant-based, plant-centered diet and brought my family along on the journey. I've been fully vegan now for, I don't know... Vegetarian for a long time and vegan for about five or six years. It was very slow going process for my family too. They weren't fully on board right away. So I can definitely relate to parents who find it challenging to help their family make the transition. [crosstalk 00:17:14]
Rip Esselstyn:
I know that in the book you mentioned how you were mentally there. You were in and you were trying to bring your family on board because they were playing catch-up. You didn't want to be impatient with them, and you mentioned how you know another one of the reasons for eating this way is it's around compassion. So you want to be compassionate for those that you're trying to bring on board too and not not stress them out with it as well.
Dr. Reshma Shah:
My husband is also a physician and for him, I mean he definitely... He eats a healthy diet, but for him it was the animal issues that finally said, "Okay, I'm in." So I think it's important to meet people where they're at and really just celebrate the food as much as possible because that's really the best way to bring people on board.
Rip Esselstyn:
I like that you have a quote in the book too where you say that you finally jumped in and this was probably five or six years ago when you decided to go all in. You said that it wasn't about being perfect, but rather being centered in my values.
Dr. Reshma Shah:
Yes.
Rip Esselstyn:
Which I really liked. Can you expand on that?
Dr. Reshma Shah:
Yeah. I mean, I think as a pediatrician and a healthcare professional, I was definitely drawn into this way of eating by the health aspects. I mean, there's no doubt in my mind that eating a plant-centered predominantly, plant diet is really good for our health in terms of all the prevention of chronic diseases and reducing our risk of heart disease, all these things that we know of.
Dr. Reshma Shah:
It's sort of like when you go down this rabbit hole then you're like, "Oh wait a minute. Now that I'm willing to look at this, it's also good for our planet." And then the last little piece for me was actually the piece around factory farm, because I knew this. I grew up in a vegetarian household. My parents taught me this, but somehow I was able to put it out of my mind during the years where I ate animals. When you begin to realize that there is no need for that amount of suffering, there's just no way to, I think deny that this is really the most compassionate way to eat.
Dr. Reshma Shah:
And for me in terms of being centered in my values, I think it's really important to even if your family isn't fully on board because I get this question a lot. If you're in a loving, kind, supportive relationship, you can ask for their respect. So what that looked like in our family is when I really jumped in and I said this is it. I've drawn the line. I'm not going to cross it. Even though you know my family wasn't fully on board, they gave me a ton of support and respect in terms of the shopping and what we brought in the house and what we didn't.
Dr. Reshma Shah:
And then I, in a very kind living way offered them flexibility outside of their home. So when they weren't fully ready to make the plunge, I tried to decrease the amount of conflict that it caused in the household.
Rip Esselstyn:
That's really important. And I know for example, just I experienced it myself at the firehouse and with a lot of firefighters that contact me that are trying to get on board with this. Just the amount of tension and friction that they're experiencing at the firehouse with typically with the other guys. And I tell them, "Listen, you don't have to have them... In the most loving caring way with these other male firefighters, you have to let them know. Listen, all I'm asking is for you to support me, not sabotage me."
Dr. Reshma Shah:
Yes.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right?
Dr. Reshma Shah:
I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more.
Rip Esselstyn:
So many of these firefighters unfortunately will just continue to just belittle and nitpick and not leave it alone to the point to where a lot of these firefighters they just want to get along and so they're going to do anything that it takes to go along with the flow here. Almost, if it means the expense of their health a long way which is kind of unfortunate. You just framed it up. It's so important to have that conversation and have it the right way.
Dr. Reshma Shah:
Yeah. I was just having this conversation with a good friend of mine and she's vegan. She's plant-based. And it's amazing like she's just trying to eat her lunch. And other people are commenting about like all the questions, the protein, and this, and that. It can be sometimes challenging because I think people feel like when you're eating a vegan diet, when you're eating a plant-based diet that somehow you are judging them for not doing the same. And it couldn't be further from the truth. I always think about it as an invitation rather than an expectation or an imposition. Whether it's with your friends, with your family, with perfect strangers even sometimes, you can just approach it from a place of inviting them.
Rip Esselstyn:
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Rip Esselstyn:
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Rip Esselstyn:
Let me ask you this, so as a pediatrician what are you seeing in children or have you seen over the last decade or so? Is it pretty unfortunate, the state of most children's health or what's it like?
Dr. Reshma Shah:
I think I've seen it from both perspectives. I definitely see children who don't have access to a variety of healthy foods. Our school lunch programs don't necessarily prioritize that. I think that families are really busy with both parents working or multiple jobs and they definitely face a lot of challenges. And in all my years of clinical practice, I've never met a parent that doesn't want the very best for their child. I think usually it's either a lack of availability of foods or finances or time or any number of things that sort of get in the way.
Dr. Reshma Shah:
So I think parents do need support in terms of knowing what a healthy diet is. They really are looking for some practical tips and strategies that can help them to get there and I think that parents want to feel supported and not judged about their food choices. So that's one thing. And then the other thing that I've been seeing more I think over the last several years is one of the things that we've been targeting is pediatric obesity, and I think it's definitely a concern and a problem, but I think that we need to be very careful with how we have these conversations with kids and with families because it can affect their self-esteem. It can affect the way that they see themselves in the world and I think we have to be much more protective of our children when we have these conversations.
Dr. Reshma Shah:
We want them to be healthy. We want them to thrive. We want them to eat a healthy diet. All these things are very true, but at the end of the day, I think that when we focus exclusively on the weight, we just completely miss the most important conversations that we should be having. Focusing on family meals. Focusing on providing a variety of healthy foods. A then sometimes I think what happens is if that child sort of falls in the normal range of the BMI, we think we don't have to talk about diet at all. And I think we should be having the same conversations about food with each and every family.
Rip Esselstyn:
What are you seeing as far as pre-diabetes and type 2 diabetes in some of your patients?
Dr. Reshma Shah:
As a pediatrician, when we move to California, I don't have my own clinical practice. I work more sort of in urgent care setting. So over the last several years, I haven't been seeing too much of that, but I certainly do see kids coming with a variety of health related problems that are based in nutrition, whether it's hypertension or I think one of the most common things I see is chronic constipation and a lot of that is directly related to diet. But we know that kids are getting diagnoses of type 2 diabetes and elevated cholesterol and hypertension and providing support for families so that they can offer the foods that can help with these conditions is really essential.
Dr. Reshma Shah:
But again, I think that all kids, not the ones that are just pre-diabetic or borderline hypertensive, all kids deserve the same information because BMI is just sort of one marker or one indicator and it doesn't go into the sort of relationship that that family has with food. The focus on family meals and enjoyment, and the same things I think are true for all of these families. I had this one child, I'll never forget who had seen a pediatrician and then came in about six months later because the mom said that she just wasn't eating anymore, and she was having problems with her appetite. And initially, I thought it might be reflux or something like that.
Dr. Reshma Shah:
I dug a little deeper and I found out that at her well-child care six months ago, her BMI had plotted in the you abnormal range, and in the higher range and it was recommended that they modify their diet. I think she was 11 or 12. What that child heard was there is something wrong with my body and she started restricting her food intake. She would have a small breakfast and then she wouldn't eat the rest of the day and it just sort of set up this dynamic because the conversation focused on the BMI instead of what does your family eat.
Dr. Reshma Shah:
Oftentimes when I ask these families, the parents are really trying to create family meals and they're having difficulty getting the kids on board. So I think what parents and children need from healthcare providers is positive conversations around food and empowering them with things that they can do that will improve their health instead of just focusing on the BMI.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Well, speaking of that... Maybe you're not seeing this because you're working in emergency medicine but I'm wondering how many if your average pediatrician is seeing eating disorders in children, let's say maybe ages eight to 18 and how frequent that is becoming if it's becoming more and more kind of a thing?
Dr. Reshma Shah:
Yeah. I think it's definitely becoming more and more of a thing. I think there's a lot of focus on weight and BMI, and I think the messages that we give our kids are very complicated that you have to sort of look and be a certain way and that comes from restricting your food intake, which is the last thing we want our children to be doing. So I think that the conversations that we have with kids and families is really, really important and how and what we say matters a great deal. Just in sort of researching this book and talking to other mothers and stuff, I can't tell you the number of people that have told me that a negative comment at their pediatrician's office resulted in some sort of... Even if it's not a full-blown diagnosable eating disorder, but disordered eating patterns.
Dr. Reshma Shah:
I think we have to be really careful with how we have those conversations. A lot of people think that vegan diets and vegetarian diets contribute to eating disorders. And in researching the book, what Brenda and I came to realize is, it's not the vegan or vegetarian diet that in itself is concerning, but it's sort of the motivation, the why. Are you looking to save the planet? Are you looking to protect animals? Are you looking to take care of your health? Or is it a diet? Because studies have shown one of the greatest risk factors for developing eating disorder is dieting.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right. And to that point, how many Americans are on a diet because they're trying to lose weight? It seems like the vast majority of them, right?
Dr. Reshma Shah:
Yeah. So the whole thing is that we want to set our kids up to have a positive relationship with food from the very beginning, which brings us back to the point that we were talking about at the beginning of our conversation, good food, bad food. Those conversations can really matter.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yep. In the book, you also reference how the single most important thing that you did to get your personal family on board was to cook really good delicious food.
Dr. Reshma Shah:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Can you let the listeners know how delicious and how tasty this food can be?
Dr. Reshma Shah:
Oh, it's so fantastically delicious and I actually think that it can broaden and open up your culinary adventures when you begin to explore new foods from ethnic cuisines and trying out different things. For me, when people talk about vegan vegetarian plant-based diets, sometimes the word restrictive comes up in the conversation. And that couldn't be farther from the truth for us. It does not feel restricted in any way. I think the flavors are really delicious. One of the things that I did when I sort of went full in, in terms of the plant-based journey was I took a six-month long plant-based professional cooking course through Ruby.
Dr. Reshma Shah:
It was such a phenomenal experience. And my kids who were quite a bit younger at the time. They were so intrigued by the fact that I had homework and they would critique the meals and they would tell me, "Oh, I think this needs a touch of more seasoning or you need a little more acid in this." So getting the kids involved and making it a fun and joyful process. I think for those people that are not comfortable with cooking, my message would be just start. Don't start with complicated recipes, start with simple things. Make family favorites and then just try to make them more plant-based. It doesn't have to be complicated. It doesn't have to be gourmet. It really is just experimenting, trying, seeing what your family likes, get the kids involved, make it as fun as possible.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, I think you're exactly right. I mean, look at this as an adventure.
Dr. Reshma Shah:
Yes.
Rip Esselstyn:
An adventure where you're exploring all these. I mean, literally, 99% of the food on the planet comes from plants. And yet most people, they only really circulate around a dozen or so different plant-based foods, if that. We actually just planted a garden in our backyard that coincided with COVID, and our six-year-old every morning, she goes out and she runs and she picks some kale or some beet greens, checks how the carrots are doing, the scallions, the pumpkins. She's making her own salads every morning. It's really spectacular.
Dr. Reshma Shah:
Yeah. That's so wonderful to see.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. But like you said, get your kids involved just in some way shape or form. You guys have 52 absolutely delicious looking recipes in this book. Is that you, Brenda, somebody else? How did you come up with those recipes?
Dr. Reshma Shah:
Yes. So all the recipes were created by Brenda and I, the two of us. So I would say it's about half hers, half mine and you'll see slightly different approaches because I think Brenda and I definitely have slightly different ways of cooking, and things that we may or may not do in the family. I think especially with having two teenagers and given all the things that we talked about, I think that my recipes will be a little bit more... They may have some salt or oil or things like that that Brenda's may not have, but all the recipes are ours and then we had some amazing recipe testers that really helped us to kind of fine tune and make sure that the recipes were delicious.
Rip Esselstyn:
So just for our listeners, I want you to know that I have checked off several that I want to make over the next two weeks, and it's about 10 of them that just stuck out of me. I'm going to read those, okay?
Dr. Reshma Shah:
Okay.
Rip Esselstyn:
So the first is, and this is for my kids who I just know will gobble these up, the oatmeal bars. It look just like fantastic. Chickpea chocolate chip cookies.
Dr. Reshma Shah:
Those are a favorite. And I'm actually going to give you a bonus secret tip for that recipe.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay.
Dr. Reshma Shah:
I discovered after we published the book, which is if when you're blending up your chickpeas and your nut butter and all that stuff, you throw in a tablespoon of yellow miso paste and it gives the cookies this sort of salted caramel flavor.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay. Say no more. Right. Snickerdoodle Hummus. I mean, come on get renal, really? Snickerdoodle hummus. I have to try it.
Dr. Reshma Shah:
Yeah, it's delicious.
Rip Esselstyn:
What do you recommend having that with?
Dr. Reshma Shah:
I think it's perfect with sliced apples, and it really goes well with that.
Rip Esselstyn:
Kind shepherd's pie. I am a just die-hard fan of good shepherd's pie with the potatoes. I don't know. I just might have lentils in it maybe. But lentils and peas. Oh, it's just so satisfying. So that jumped out. Lemony chickpea pasta with mushrooms and broccoli. My kids love anything broccoli.
Dr. Reshma Shah:
And that recipe comes together so quickly. It's perfect for a quick meal, and it's got everything in there, right? It's got your broccoli and it's got... It's just like a one bowl meal and it's perfect. My kids really like that one.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Mango, avocado and black bean salad. Every one of those ingredients, everybody in my family loves. So that'd be a great salad. Banana walnut pancakes. Every Sunday we make pancakes. So I want to try those out. And then the last thing was the curried red lentil soup. Anyway, those, I can't wait to try all those.
Dr. Reshma Shah:
Well, I hope you enjoy them.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh, I will, I will. You have a passage in here that I want to read because I just want to hearken back to what we were talking about with the dinner table and how important that is. And this is page 264 here. It's, "Despite all the potential advantages, family meals are not a panacea. Our children will still struggle, with school, with relationships, with food and with health both physical and mental. But those rituals practiced with consistency, may diminish their chances of experiencing such suffering. And if such suffering should come upon them, the foundation of family meals can be a wonderful source of ongoing support, comfort and love. Through the food and conversations that we bring to our dinner tables, we have the wonderful and fantastic opportunity to nourish our families each and every day."
Rip Esselstyn:
Amen to that. Because you're right, life is hard and we're all going to have our own set of struggles, whatever they may be. But to me this, if you can give your child the gift of a plant predominant diet, and family dinner time or lunch time or breakfast time or just some of that, it will serve as a foundation that will do them so well as they sail off into life. As your kids are getting ready to do it, 16 and 18. Thank goodness that this is something that they have or have had from you and your husband now for a good, it sounds like almost 10 years plus.
Dr. Reshma Shah:
There's one story that always sort of warms my heart and it's this idea of this just being consistent, and it might not seem very dramatic, but our children are really paying attention. We have this tradition of just checking in with one another's day like how was your day. My kids are teenagers now, so they're just like, "It was fine. It was fine." They kind of roll their eyes. I can't remember what exactly it was, but I had a particularly hard day and I was just quiet at the dinner table, and my son sort of picked up on the queue like something's off. He turned to me and he said, "Mama, how was your day?" It's one of those things where...
Rip Esselstyn:
You don't expect it.
Dr. Reshma Shah:
You don't expect it, and it just... I don't know. I think that sometimes we take for granted those little things. They may seem sort of annoying or irritating to our kids especially our teenagers, but they are paying attention and they rely on us to give them that structure, that routine and that opportunity for connection. So even if they seem resistant, even if they're rolling their eyes at you, keep going.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, absolutely. Another thing that you write about in the book that I completely agree with, and again, it's why I said that the gift that you've given your children by bringing them on board with this lifestyle is that a lot of times, I think the palette that our children's develop, that our children develop as they're growing up will then kind of become a pattern into adulthood.
Dr. Reshma Shah:
Absolutely.
Rip Esselstyn:
So what a great gift.
Dr. Reshma Shah:
I will also say that it's very, very true and I completely agree with it. But no matter where you are, it's not too late to start, because sometimes parents will read this book or they'll come to me and they say, "But my kids are already like 10 and 12. It's too late. I've messed up already." And that's not the case. They are flexible, they are resilient and if you invite them along, just be persistent, be patient and they will come along. So even if your kids [crosstalk 00:40:21], it's not too late.
Rip Esselstyn:
Good point. There's so many different you know parts of the spectrum. Like my father for example, I was talking to him just the other night and he was telling me how he is right now counseling a 91-year-old male who's just getting on board now because he wants to kick the heart disease and go into his hundreds.
Dr. Reshma Shah:
I don't think it's ever too late and I think it's wonderful. If your dad can support someone at 91 years of age, then we can definitely support a nine-year-old, right?
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, totally. And my kids, they have this gift of they don't know any other lifestyle. They've never had any cravings for cheese, for meat, for dairy, that kind of stuff. Now, I do want let listeners know that they do love some of the plant-based ice creams and some of the plant-based beyond meat hamburgers and some of the diet cheese on their pizzas. They're six, 11, and 13, and I'm okay with that right now.
Dr. Reshma Shah:
Studies have also shown that the more restrictive that you become with those things, the more they're going to want them when they're sort of away from you. I think modeling that behavior, it's perfectly fine. What we do 80 to 90% of the time is so much more important than being perfect. It puts a lot of pressure on kids and families, I think.
Rip Esselstyn:
Totally. Well, Reshma, this has been absolutely delightful. I want to thank you and Brenda for writing Nourish for families. It is and can serve as one of the true clear paths to get family on board in a very, very, I think manageable and an accessible way. So thank you for this contribution.
Dr. Reshma Shah:
Thank you so much for having both Brenda and I on. We're just I'm so grateful for your support and for your beautiful words about the book. Your endorsement just really warmed our heart to have such kind words from you, so thank you for those.
Rip Esselstyn:
And thank you for that wonderful gift package that you sent me. That was really delightful.
Dr. Reshma Shah:
That's my mom's homemade Garam Masala. You won't want any other Garam Masala after using hers.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. I can't wait to dig in and try it. Now, is that something that I could use on that red lentil curry dish?
Dr. Reshma Shah:
Oh, absolutely. On my website actually, I have a recipe for Chana Masala and I use that Garam Masala for that. The other thing I love doing with that is just putting it on some chickpeas and roasting them with a little salt and it just gives it a nice flavor.
Rip Esselstyn:
That reminds me of one of the things that you mentioned in here is just an easy dinner was these pan dinners.
Dr. Reshma Shah:
Sheet-pan dinners, yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
There it is, sheet-pan dinners. Go ahead. Describe a sheet-pan dinner.
Dr. Reshma Shah:
So it's basically, you just throw everything on a sheet pan and just roast it. So I usually like to do either some chickpeas or tofu, whatever veggies you have, maybe some sweet potatoes or regular potatoes. And then if you've got either a homemade or jarred pesto or something like that, it's just a really quick night dinner. And I think also when you're at the end of the week, when your groceries are kind of straggling, and you've got like half an eggplant and a couple bell peppers and you don't really know what to do with it, just throw it all in a sheet pan and roasting it just brings out the sweetness. And especially now as we're in fall and winter weather, I think it's perfect.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. That's one of our favorite things to do with onions, and any kind of potato. And then towards the end, I'll pull it out and I'll throw in some... Usually some frozen corn and have that with it as well, give it a little sweetness with every bite.
Dr. Reshma Shah:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
So before I let you go, let me ask you this. What time of the day is it there? Like noon-ish?
Dr. Reshma Shah:
Yeah. It's just about noon here.
Rip Esselstyn:
So can you tell me if you've had breakfast today and what you had, and then what you're maybe planning to have for lunch and dinner, if you know what those are.
Dr. Reshma Shah:
Yeah. I had breakfast and I had a piece of sprouted toast with a little nut butter and some sliced fruit. For me, it's a quick and easy breakfast. It's either usually that or oatmeal are pretty much my go-to's. Then for lunch, what I do for lunch is just whatever we have, leftovers, and then I'll find some greens, other vegetables, and I'll mix it together. So my favorite lunch is basically leftovers plus greens and that's pretty much it. That's lunchy. And then tonight for dinner, we are going to have, because I always have to have in my mind what dinner's going to be, we're going to have a French lentil soup with some kale and then... My kids love it. I make this flatbread with whatever veggies we have. So I'll do like a flatbread with veggies and just like a salad. So that's for dinner tonight.
Rip Esselstyn:
That all sounds really, really delicious. For lunch today, I've got some leftover barley from last night that we made just in the rice cooker. So I'm going to have the barley with some corn that I put in the... I guess, you can just call it the sauce pan and then I'm going to throw in some, believe it or not, frozen bell peppers, some greens and just a little bit of black beans. But that'll be ready in about five, six minutes.
Dr. Reshma Shah:
Lunch for me is usually like whatever I can throw together from leftovers and various greens, but you've also got that garden, so you can just teach the kids how to pick something from it.
Rip Esselstyn:
That's right. I know. Exactly. Well, all the best to you. Peace Engine 2 and keep it Plantstrong.
Dr. Reshma Shah:
Thank you.
Rip Esselstyn:
Thank you. Family meals do matter, and I sincerely hope that these interviews with Brenda and Reshma have inspired you to give it a go, even if it's just one meal at a time. As Dr. Shah says, "This is not about being perfect, but about being centered in your values." I can think of no better values to teach your family then health, tradition, celebration, and connectedness. Thanks so much for listening. For more resources on this episode, visit plantstrongpodcast.com.
Rip Esselstyn:
Thank you for listening to the Plantstrong Podcast. You can support the show by taking a quick minute to subscribe, rate, and review at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Sharing the show with your network is another great way to help us reach as many people as possible with the great news about plants. Thank you in advance for your support. It means everything to me.
Rip Esselstyn:
Have you had your own Galileo moment that you'd like to share? What happened when you stepped into the arena and shed the beliefs that you thought to be true? I'd love to hear about it. Visit plantstrongpodcast.com to submit your story and to learn more about today's guests and sponsors. The Plantstrong Podcast team includes Carrie Barrett, Laurie Kortowich, Ami Mackey, Patrick Gavin, and Wade Clark. This season is dedicated to all those courageous truth seekers who weren't afraid to look through the lens with clear vision, and hold firm to a higher truth, most notably my parents, Dr. Caldwell B. Esselstyn, Jr. and Ann Crile Esselstyn. Thanks for listening.
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