#73: Paul de Gelder - Remaining Resilient
Paul with Rip at Plant-Stock
It’s always wonderful to catch up with friends and fellow plantstrong powerhouses! Today, we're thrilled to welcome Paul de Gelder back to the podcast. You can catch his first interview here in season one.
In 2009, Paul was a Royal Australian Navy Clearance Diver on a training exercise in Sydney Harbor when he was viciously attacked by a nine-foot bull shark. He came precariously close to death, as you’ll hear him recount today.
As a man who faced death face-on, he knows a thing or two about fear. How do you handle fear and uncertainty? How do you navigate dark times and turbulent waters? You double-down on structure, routine, and strength, as Paul emphasizes today.
Instead of anger or depression, Paul committed his recovery and new life to one of conservation, compassion, and commitment - not just to our planet, but to the animals that nearly killed him.
He's a regular host of Sharkweek on the Discovery Channel where he takes celebrities like Will Smith and Mike Tyson on shark dives to raise awareness of the beauty and importance of these creatures that humans fear most.
It’s so easy to be inspired by Paul and, as he says, “Once you get past fear of dying, life becomes more refreshing and free."
Episode and PLANTSTRONG Resources:
Rip's Rescue - "Make Yourself Heart-Attack Proof - LIVE on March 18th - Register for FREE
PLANTSTRONG Rescue 10x - Hop on the waitlist for our next session.
PLANTSTRONG Meal Planner - Save $10 off the annual plan with code: PLANTSTRONG
PLANTSTRONG Foods - Pizza Crust is Back in Stock. Bookmark this page for upcoming food announcements!
Paul de Gelder:
I still got to get the message out there. People are struggling, more now than ever. So I feel like it's my duty to motivate and inspire and uplift people and let them know that it's going to be okay. We're stronger than we believe.
Rip Esselstyn:
Season Three of the Plant-Strong Podcast explores those Galileo moments where you seek to understand the real truth around your health and dare to see the world through a different lens. This season we honor those courageous seekers who are paving the way for you and me. So grab your telescope, point it towards your future, and let's get Plant-Strong together.
Rip Esselstyn:
It's always wonderful to catch up with friends and fellow Plant-Strong powerhouses, and wouldn't you know it a few weeks ago I got word that Mr. Paul de Gelder, Mr. Shark man was passing through Austin, Texas. So I reached out, pinged him to meet up, and we went to ATX Food Co for some of their amazing tempeh barbecue briskets. And afterwards, I insisted that he come back to the Plant-Strong World Headquarters and be a part of season three of the podcast. As you'll soon understand, when Paul talks, you can't help but hang onto every last word.
Rip Esselstyn:
If you haven't already, be sure to go back to season one of the podcast and listen to my first conversation with Paul that is an absolutely doozy. We have stayed in touch over the years, and it was fabulous to see him again and connect because it had been way too long.
Rip Esselstyn:
So a little background on Paul. In 2009, he was a Royal Australian Navy Clearance Diver, and on a simple training exercise in Sydney Harbor, he was viciously attacked by a nine foot bull shark. For the record, there had not been a shark attack in Sydney Harbor in over 61 years. Suffice it to say he barely survived and lost both his right arm and leg in the process, and came precariously close to dying as you're going to hear him recount today.
Rip Esselstyn:
But here's the thing, instead of anger or depression, Paul approached his recovery with his tried and true mantra, improvise, adapt, overcome. When he launched himself into a new life centered on, of all things, shark conservation activism and a bold Plant-Strong lifestyle. You've likely seen him as the popular host of Shark Week on the Discovery Channel where he takes people like Will Smith and Mike Tyson down to play and pet the sharks.
Rip Esselstyn:
It's easy to be inspired by Paul, and as he says, once you get past the fear of dying, life becomes more refreshing and free. Let's welcome back to the podcast Mr. Paul de Gelder.
Rip Esselstyn:
This is quite a treat.
Paul de Gelder:
Random occurrence.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Paul de Gelder:
How did I even get here from Australia?
Rip Esselstyn:
I don't know.
Paul de Gelder:
Everyone says that Texans are probably the most similar to Australians.
Rip Esselstyn:
And why do you think that is?
Paul de Gelder:
I have no idea. I guess friendly accents. I don't know.
Rip Esselstyn:
Friendly accents. Big personalities.
Paul de Gelder:
Big personalities. Yeah. But I'm having a great time. It's a wonderful town.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. So for just to kind of fill people in, Paul was on season one of the Plant-Strong Podcast, and we talked all about the shark attack. And if anybody wants to revisit that, I think it was episode five of season one.
Paul de Gelder:
It was a good time.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, I mean, it certainly has formed the trajectory of your life's path.
Paul de Gelder:
Absolutely.
Rip Esselstyn:
And I would imagine in some ways, maybe this is not fair for me to say, that because of where you are now, it's probably been a great thing that happened, if that's fair to say.
Paul de Gelder:
Many people have said that. What was good about it was the way that I handled it. That's what turned it. The shark attack was horrific. It was terrible. It nearly killed me. But I guess all the years in the military and the rough time I had growing up forged me into a person that could deal with that sort of tragedy and turn it into something that has truly become an amazing life.
Rip Esselstyn:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). So speaking of an amazing life, can you give me an update? So when I last spoke to you, I think Will Smith had just been with you, and you guys had went and visited the sharks. Who are some other people that you have taken down to play with sharks?
Paul de Gelder:
The most recent one was probably the scariest as well, Mike Tyson. Iron Mike. He was so terrified of sharks that he threw up before or after every single dive. Projectile, pink spew on the back of the boat. He grabbed everything underwater. He was a terrible diver. But he really was a nice guy. He was just very scared, and I got to spend a lot of time with him talking to him. He's very quiet until you touch on subjects that he's interested in. We both like ancient history, spirituality, aliens, and he had his son with him as well. I caught him really being a good dad and teaching his son about being a man, about being honest and being open with your feelings and things like that. So we had a really good time in the Bahamas for a couple of days.
Rip Esselstyn:
Let me ask you this. So you're taking these huge celebrities, Tyson, Smith, and I would imagine there has to be a certain level of trust or a bond between you and them because they-
Paul de Gelder:
A massive amount of trust.
Rip Esselstyn:
So how much time typically... I mean, is there a formula as far as how much time you spend with them before you actually do the shark dive?
Paul de Gelder:
It's like a morning. So with Mike, it was a little bit more than that because he had never dove before. So we started in a swimming pool. We used an animatronic shark in the pool, which is very cool. Will was like a morning, a practice dive. But then we introduce him to the sharks incrementally. Ronda Rousey, we put her in full body chainmail for the first dive. Same with Mike. We put Mike into a cage as well, but that's generally one dive, and then you go to the bottom with the sharks. And I'm their protector. Anything happens to them, it's my fault.
Rip Esselstyn:
And so do you teach them how to defend yourself? What to do?
Paul de Gelder:
Exactly.
Rip Esselstyn:
What do you do exactly?
Paul de Gelder:
It's very much like Karate Kid, wax on, wax off. Painting the fence. You keep your hands away from the pointy bits, which is the mouth, just underneath. And generally speaking, you don't want to meet a wild animal with aggression because just like a dog, if it's barking at you, it's attacking you, you meet it with aggression, it's going to meet you with aggression. So you just want to show that you're a predator as well. So you just put your hand out, put it on the top of their head or by the nose or on the side or behind the jaws, and depending on what angle it's coming at you, you just push it away. It's really that simple. It's just having the confidence to be able to reach out and touch that thousand pound animal that you've grown up thinking and being told by the media that it wants to kill you. And touching it and just pushing it away.
Rip Esselstyn:
So how often do you just push it away and then it decides to come back again?
Paul de Gelder:
Oh, they always come back because we've got food. Yeah. So we attract them in with bait boxes a lot of the time. With Ronda Rousey, I was actually teaching her to hand-feed the bull sharks. So they always come back, but it's like tiger sharks, you push away, and they'll turn on a dime and come back at you again. So you can't push it away and then turn around and look for another shark. You have to keep your eyes on everything all at once. That's where the military training comes in, the operational awareness, situational awareness. But you constantly moving your head all the time because they can come from any angle.
Paul de Gelder:
In Fiji, there was 20-25 of the biggest bull sharks in the world, and then 30 or 40 of six other species of shark.
Rip Esselstyn:
So how big of a bull shark are we talking?
Paul de Gelder:
10 foot, 800 pounds, and they're very curious. And they don't care. So you have to be very vigilant.
Rip Esselstyn:
And the shark that bit you was a bull shark.
Paul de Gelder:
Yup. Nine foot bull shark. Yeah. They're one of the most unpredictable sharks. They have more testosterone than an adult bull elephant. They're responsible for a lot of attacks on humans. So they are the sharks to watch out for.
Rip Esselstyn:
So my wife and kids just left. Obviously they adored meeting you. The legend Paul de Gelder.
Paul de Gelder:
They had some great questions too.
Rip Esselstyn:
But one of the things that I heard as I was getting this set up was, and I'd love for you to repeat it, is how many shark attacks are there roughly a year, and then how many sharks are we basically killing?
Paul de Gelder:
So approximately seven deaths attributed to shark attacks a year as opposed to humans killing over 100 million sharks every year. So when I was just learning about sharks after my shark attack because the media would come to be for opinions if there was a shark interaction. So at the necessity of not sounding like a dummy on national television, I thought, "Well, I better be well advised." So I learnt a lot about sharks. And the more I learnt, the more I realized how little we have to fear of them and how much they actually have to fear of us.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. So Mike Tyson, Will Smith.
Paul de Gelder:
Ronda Rousey.
Rip Esselstyn:
For people who don't know, who is...
Paul de Gelder:
Ronda Rousey's world famous UFC fighter turned WWE champion. I think Judo Olympic Champion. Amazing, amazing woman. Jason Statham, Blake Lively.
Rip Esselstyn:
What was Jason like?
Paul de Gelder:
He was lovely. I was interviewing him and some other members for the launch of the movie The Meg.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh. Yeah.
Paul de Gelder:
So I was in my dressing room. He was in his. His assistant came running in and said, "Paul, Paul, can you come into Jason's dressing room. He really wants to show you his shark videos." So like, "Oh yeah, of course." "Good day, mate." His English. He's like, "Ah, check this out. I was just diving with sharks before the movie." He showed me. I was like, "Ah, that's really cool, man." So I whipped out my phone, and I showed him me diving with four great white sharks at 110 feet. He just looked at me like, "What? Who are you?" So yeah, nice guy.
Paul de Gelder:
Every celebrity I've worked with generally has been pretty lovely. So a bunch of comedians. We had five comedians. Anthony Anderson, Joel McHale, Rob Riggle, Damon Wayans Jr., and Adam Devine all in one shoot. Trying to control them underwater was like herding mosquitoes. Comedians are uncontrollable. But we had a great time.
Rip Esselstyn:
So what was the last episode that you've done since COVID hit?
Paul de Gelder:
The Mike Tyson Show we shot in June just before Shark Week aired. It's a lot of restrictions on filming. So we haven't really been able to do anything. And I'm about to go on my firs tone for this year. So I usually do about three new shows for Shark Week a year. So I got the first one coming up in Australia. I got to head back next week, and then two more to come.
Rip Esselstyn:
So you were telling the kids and me about a time that you got basically, was it they blew up the boat or something? And you were in the water for 44 hours straight.
Paul de Gelder:
Yeah, that was-
Rip Esselstyn:
Can you tell me about that? Because that sounds like a crazy adventure.
Paul de Gelder:
Yeah, that was interesting. The production came to us said, "Hey, we want to do this show where we show people how to survive if their boats go down in the ocean. Also, we want to talk about shark conservation." And it was a replication of the biggest shark attack in history when the USS Indianapolis was sunken in the Philippine Sea and hundreds of soldiers were apparently killed by oceanic white tip sharks. They call them the wolves of the sea. So we couldn't do it in the Philippines because commercial fishing has decimated the populations of sharks there, and we wouldn't get any sharks as opposed to the hundreds that turned up when the ship went down.
Paul de Gelder:
So we did it in the Bahamas. They blew up our boat, and we had to bail out and survive in the ocean for 44 hours. Then they wanted to do it again in the South Pacific to show what the fighter pilots had to go through when they were shot down by the Japanese. George W. Bush was shot down there and spent a couple days in the ocean. So we had to parachute out of a notion lee crashing plane directly into the ocean and do another 44 hours drifting through the ocean with no food, no water surrounded by sharks.
Rip Esselstyn:
So the first time you did it, were there any points in time when you're like, "I never want to do this again. This is..."
Paul de Gelder:
The whole time. I don't like survival shows. It's horrible. I get hangry. I get cranky. I had to pee rash all over my body from peeing in my wetsuit. It's just miserable. The worse part is...
Rip Esselstyn:
Why do you have to wear a wetsuit?
Paul de Gelder:
Just in case you get cold. It also keeps you buoyant. So you can kind of float a little bit. We had fins as well. So you never stop kicking your legs the whole time. Entering the second night knowing that the sun's going down, the sharks are coming out to hunt again, and you're going to go through eight hours of pitch black where you can't do anything. You can't sleep. You can't see anything. The sharks are out. It's horrible. So then I did it again in the next year like an idiot.
Rip Esselstyn:
Did you do it the next year with the same...
Paul de Gelder:
Same guy, same production company, yeah. So we had safety boats, but they weren't anywhere near us. A shark can bite you in the blink of an eye. This boat was hundreds of feet away. So there was nothing they could've done to help us whatsoever. They lost us a couple of times in the swell.
Rip Esselstyn:
So how much over the course of those 44 hours did you feel like you had to call upon your training that you went through and the whole improvise, adapt, overcome? Was that one of the reasons you made it?
Paul de Gelder:
Yeah, absolutely. I'm doing it with one prosthetic leg and an arm that has a hook on the end. So anything that you need to use two hands for, any little finicky things, like untying yourself from ropes and stuff like that. The second night of the second show, I needed to poop. The first year I didn't poop the whole time, 44 hours. So I went into the second year thinking, "Oh, this is okay. My body's going to go into survival mode." Second night I needed to poop, and it was big swell and it was pitch black. And I have one hand, and I was bouncing around in the ocean trying to cut a hole in my wetsuit bum so I could poop without cutting a hole in my actual bum. So that was very hard.
Paul de Gelder:
But improvise, adapt, overcome comes into my every day life all of the time because we all face hurdles, normal things. So I have to call on that all the time. It's a very, very important lesson to learn that and patience and perseverance.
Rip Esselstyn:
How much were you communicating with your buddy during this whole 44 hour period?
Paul de Gelder:
We're on camera. So we have to talk. That's probably the hardest thing being motivated enough and not pissed off enough to talk to the camera, talk to each other, and I'm very bad at hiding my feelings and my emotions. So I got cranky with him a lot.
Rip Esselstyn:
That's probably fine though. They probably want to see the authenticity.
Paul de Gelder:
They do. A lot of people, that's their favorite parts where I'm getting pissed off.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, yeah. I got to go see it. I mean, I haven't-
Paul de Gelder:
It's called Shark Wrecked. So Discovery just launched their own platform, their own app called Discovery+. So you've never been able to watch Shark Week outside of that one week a year, and now you can watch it on demand. So it's Shark Week every week.
Rip Esselstyn:
Are you doing this for another year or two or-
Paul de Gelder:
They just renewed it. I've done I think 18 shows now. They've just renewed my contract for another two to four years. So I'm staying out in America, living out here. Maybe I'll move to Austin. I don't know. Coming to annoy you.
Rip Esselstyn:
Absolutely.
Paul de Gelder:
Yeah, so I got another two years, three shows a year, and then all the other superfluous stuff that comes along with it. Just random shows and photo shoots and adventures.
Rip Esselstyn:
And then we were talking about this in the car ride over here, but you have, in my opinion, become one of the premier keynote speakers.
Paul de Gelder:
Thank you.
Rip Esselstyn:
I think it just kind of motivating people and letting them know that you can do really anything. And that has basically, with COVID, kind of been wiped out. Doing it in Zoom is not the same, right?
Paul de Gelder:
Yeah. WebEx, Zoom, yeah. Virtual conferences. It's not the same. It's not fun. I don't enjoy it, but I get paid good money to do it. So I do. I believe in doing your best in everything that you do, so I try my best. But not having that connection to my audience and being able to see them and feel their energy and taking them on this journey with me with all the laughs and the tears, and people passing out. I don't enjoy it. But I still got to get the message out there. People are struggling, more now than ever. So I feel like it's my duty to motivate and inspire and uplift people and let them know it's going to be okay. We're stronger than we believe.
Rip Esselstyn:
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Rip Esselstyn:
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Rip Esselstyn:
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Rip Esselstyn:
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Rip Esselstyn:
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Rip Esselstyn:
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Rip Esselstyn:
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Rip Esselstyn:
I'd love for you to share a little bit about that whole improve, adapt, overcome, especially over the last year. Some people are struggling mightily, depression, anxiety, suicidal thoughts, alcohol, abuse. Some people are thriving. I'd love for you to talk about maybe how it's been for you and then any advice that you would give for people right now that maybe are having a hard time.
Paul de Gelder:
Yeah. It has been very hard for a lot of people. I found that routine was very helpful. I go to bed early, I get up early before the sun's up. Sometimes four o'clock in the morning. I get out and I go... They haven't shutdown nature. They shutdown some of the trails for a while, but you can still go out and get into the wild and reconnect with nature and ground yourself. And I find that helps a lot because we spend so much time looking at our phones and on our computers and looking at TV. So we forget that we're not part of that. We're not technology. We're part of nature, and we need to reconnect to that.
Paul de Gelder:
Go and sit by a tree and practice meditation. Learn to meditate. It's not that hard. You just sit down and breathe and think of one thing. But also, don't feel bad about feeling bad and don't get discouraged if you screw up. There's a lot of that people do one thing wrong or get on you that might start drinking all week, and they just go down the rabbit hole. Don't feel bad about that. It's okay. We all screw up. We all don't stay on track a lot of the time. But pull yourself together. Give yourself a mental uppercut, a kick in the ass, pull your socks up and go, "Okay. Enough is enough. Now I'm going to get back to who I'm supposed to be."
Paul de Gelder:
Some people lost jobs. So you have to pivot. You have to recreate yourself, recreate your mind, recreate your drive. Practice your motivation. Practice your happiness. These are things that people forget. They're not there all the time when you call on them. But you get better at everything you practice. As much as I said stop looking at your phone, we're not technology, it can be a great source of motivation, inspiration. It can be a driver. Listen to an Anthony Robbins motivational talk. There's motivational apps. There's meditational teaching apps. There's inspiring people on Instagram. People talk a lot of crap on social media. I've learned to use it for the right reasons.
Paul de Gelder:
And before I go to the gym, I'll look up a workout. Keep it fresh. I'll check out a really inspiring bodybuilder and find some new ways to work my chest or do curls or something silly like that, but that makes me feel good. It motivates me, inspires me. I go and get a sweat on, work out, practice my push ups, and live. That's what we're supposed to be doing here.
Rip Esselstyn:
We are. We are, aren't we?
Paul de Gelder:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Who is somebody recently that has inspired you?
Paul de Gelder:
A lot of my friends actually inspire me. People like Cristina Zenato, Jamin Martinelli, two wonderful, amazing women that work in shark conservation, are often called shark whisperers. They go diving with some of the biggest, scariest sharks in the world. They're tiny, little girls. And they'll remove fish hooks from the mouths of sharks with their hands. People like that inspire me and drive me to be better with the conservation work that I'm doing. Groups like 4Ocean that are doing great conversation work. My friends are ex-Marines. They do Recycle for Veterans, and they bring veterans together to be part of a club again, a team again that you lose when you leave the military. They go out and do beach clean-ups. Amazing people like that. That's what inspires me. People doing small things consistently to make the world a better place.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Is there something in the last I'll just say six months that you've struggled with, that you've had a hard time with?
Paul de Gelder:
Nothing I've really struggled with. Home workouts. Two months in, it was just, "No, I don't want to do this anymore." So that was a real struggle. So I have a studio apartment in LA. Not a big one. It's like a one bedroom without a door. The main features are my rower, my treadmill, and my ski erg and my adjustable dumbbells that I've accumulated over the last year. So I can make working out fun at home. But I always say you'll never regret invest in yourself.
Rip Esselstyn:
So this is season three. Season three, our focus is on Galileo moments. So when you had that Galileo moment where you kind of looked through the telescope and you saw what, to you, was the truth. What I'm referring to here is... So I know all about your amazing work with shark conservation and the host of Shark Week, but one of the reasons why I also really connect with you is because you're plant-based. I don't know if you use the term plant-based or vegan or if you have a term.
Paul de Gelder:
Don't care.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay, don't care. I love Plant-Strong.
Paul de Gelder:
Those that care don't matter, and those that matter don't care.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Paul de Gelder:
It's just vegan, plant-based, whatever.
Rip Esselstyn:
I think we talked about this on the first podcast, but I'd love to revisit it. So what was it that allowed you to see for the first time what this is a lifestyle that I'm interested in, this not eating animals. Was there somebody or something?
Paul de Gelder:
Damien Mander.
Rip Esselstyn:
Damien Mander.
Paul de Gelder:
Do you know who Damien is?
Rip Esselstyn:
I do. For people that don't, could you tell us?
Paul de Gelder:
We have the same job in the Navy. He was a clearance diver in Australia, became a Special Forces sniper and then a private military contractor. Something like 11 or 12 tours in Iraq teaching the Iraqi military, and then he went to Africa on leave and went on safari and saw a rhino with it's face hacked off. And it touched a part of his soul that he couldn't change. And he decided that this was his new calling. He was going to use all of the skills that he developed through the military to try and save these amazing animals in Africa.
Paul de Gelder:
He moved to Africa, starting the international Anti-Poaching Foundation and began to train the rangers as a paramilitary group. I was fortunate enough to go there and live and work with him and his rangers for a few weeks and learn how they do their job. It was incredible. They gave me a five minute lesson on how to handle a snake and gave me a deadly black mamba. Crazy stuff.
Paul de Gelder:
So Damien is a huge man, huge hulking 6'2" I think. Big, big burly dude. And he was eating from a separate pot to his rangers. So I thought, "Oh, this guy is saving the good meat for himself." I'm like, "What a dick." So I pulled him up. I'm like, "Bro, what's with the separate pot?" He took me totally by surprise. He said, "I don't eat meat." That befuddled me. I was like, "Why?" "I'm vegan." "What's that?" I had no idea. I heard of vegetarians, but I never really come across the term.
Paul de Gelder:
He's like, "Well, look, I don't eat meat." I said, "Why? What?" He didn't strike me as the tree-hugging, plant-eating hippie. He said, "Well, look, I was existing out here in Africa to save these animals, and then I was going home and I was eating the animals. And I felt like a hypocrite." That struck a chord with me because I dislike hypocrites very much because they were always the worst leaders in the military.
Paul de Gelder:
So I thought long and hard about that. I went home and went vegan for two days. I got hungry, and I didn't know what to eat. It went away for a bit. But it kept popping up. The universe speaks to you, and if you're willing to listen, it can guide you to the person that you're meant to be. I listened. It kept popping up. Friends like John Joseph who you know well as well. Other friends of mine like Ian Norrington, old school London gangster. 6'3" covered in tattoos, hard man.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right here, doesn't he? Doesn't he have a tattoo?
Paul de Gelder:
Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative). He's got tattoos everywhere. And he's a celebrity bodyguard. He got in touch with me. It just kept coming up and coming up. And then What The Health came out, and I'm like, "All right. I got to do something here." So I did it slowly. I did it right. I would never go back. I love the lifestyle. I love feeling good in my soul.
Rip Esselstyn:
And that was four years ago roughly.
Paul de Gelder:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
So you had already started your shark conversation work, right?
Paul de Gelder:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
So I find it pretty neat that you and Damien basically are both doing conservation work. You in the oceans with the sharks and him on the land with the rhinos and the elephants and stuff like that.
Paul de Gelder:
Yeah. He's a little more heavily involved than mine is. Literally living in the jungle and living and breathing it. Investing all of his money and all of his heart and soul into it. I do whatever I can. Whenever I'm asked to help, I do my best to help. I do the shows to teach people about sharks, to try and change their perception about these animals.
Paul de Gelder:
So Steve Irwin said, "If you can make people fall in love with something, they'll want to protect it." So I'm trying to make everyone fall in love with these animals that I really, really love.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. It's funny, the perception of sharks and the amount of just inherent fear that most people have of them, you got a tall order there.
Paul de Gelder:
Oh yeah. The great thing is I understand because I was petrified of sharks. I hated them. I thought previous to my shark attack in the Navy because I was spending so much time diving, I thought if we just killed them all, we didn't have to worry about them. But that's ignorance. I didn't know anything about them. It wasn't until after the shark attack I had the opportunity to learn and really understand the plight. They don't populate quickly because they're slow to mature. They're slow to breed. They don't have that many pups a lot of the time.
Paul de Gelder:
So we're incrementally wiping them out. It's really, really sad to see that we as humans, as the protectors of this realm, would just destroy our homes and destroy these amazing animals. We spend billions of dollars going to space and looking for life on other planets while we destroy the life on our own planet. I think that's, once again, very, very hypocritical.
Paul de Gelder:
We can't be perfect. I don't think anyone that's plant-based expects that. It's about progression, not perfection. As long as we keep striving to do better and protect these animals and these... We have the most incredible life on this planet. Amazing things. When I go into the ocean, I feel like I'm in space and I'm astronaut. There are the most weird and wonderful creatures down there. You're totally encompassed in nature, and it's so serene, and it's so beautiful. I don't want it to be destroyed.
Rip Esselstyn:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Well, I would ask you this, would you say that, like the Great Barrier Reef, hasn't it kind of been destroyed?
Paul de Gelder:
It is being destroyed.
Rip Esselstyn:
Is there any way it can come back? Is it too late?
Paul de Gelder:
I think it can come back, but we need to make changes in our lives. I think they said 50% of it was dying from coral bleaching that's coming from apparently warming ocean temperatures from chemicals being pumped into the ocean. The animal agriculture industry is creating dead zones in the river ways and the entrances to the ocean. So as you and I know, the more people move away from supporting the industry that creates suffering and torture and destruction of our planet, the better off we'll be. The easiest thing you can do to make differences in the world is stop eating animal products. It's not that hard.
Rip Esselstyn:
It's not that hard. It's not that hard. Do it.
Rip Esselstyn:
I want to ask you this because I loved your answer that you just gave to my wife and kids and that was after you spoke at Plant-Stock 2019, standing ovation. I asked you a few questions, and a couple of people came up to me and said, "Why does Paul continually put himself in the line of fire and continually up the ante? He's putting himself in a no-win position." And I said something like, "Aren't you afraid of dying?" And remember your answer?
Paul de Gelder:
Yeah. Absolutely because it's something I firmly believe. Once you get past that fear of death, life becomes so much more refreshing and free. Take it from someone who has been inches of death in the most violent of horrific ways, death isn't scary. Going to your death with regrets and missed opportunities and a life that you didn't live that you dreamed for yourself, that is worth your fear because that's the last thing you're going to be thinking about.
Rip Esselstyn:
We're afraid of snaked. We're afraid of this and that. What are we afraid of?
Paul de Gelder:
It stems from a fear of death. Your daughter's scared of moths, but they get in your hair. Slugs are slimy. So it's not a real fear. The fear is people are afraid of heights because they don't want to fall, and they don't want to die. They're afraid of sharks because they don't want to get eaten. They don't want to die. So our fears stems from death, and if you can get past that and realize death isn't scary. Just life your life and then you don't have to worry about that. But it's very hard for people to understand who haven't come to that. There's a saying, I'm probably going to destroy it, but it's basically for those that have tasted death, life has a flavor that others will never understand.
Rip Esselstyn:
So if you were within inches of death and you found it not to be scary, what did you find it to be?
Paul de Gelder:
Calming. Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Like how so?
Paul de Gelder:
Well, I let go. I let go and I was just willing. I was waiting to drift off. The shark had me by the leg and the hand. He was tearing me apart. I was in agony for the first few seconds, then it sawed through my nerves. So all I could feel was my whole body just getting tossed around. I thought to myself, "I'm not going home today. I'm going to die right now." I thought to myself, "Am I ready to die?" And I looked back on my life to what it had started out as a lost, depressed, self-harming kid that was getting bullied and picked on that had no direction to the elite of the Navy and doing a job I never could've dreamed and having experiences I could've never fathomed for myself. I thought, "I've lived 10 lives in these 31 years. If I'm going to die, I'm ready to go."
Paul de Gelder:
So I let go, the pain went away. I just was waiting just to go. That was when the shark ripped out my hamstring and ripped off my hand, and I popped to the surface and went, "Oh my god, I'm not dead. Better get out of here before he comes back." So I started swimming back to the boat with one hand and one leg through a pool of my own blood, just expecting to die. But fortunately, we have very good first aid training, and my buddies kept me alive.
Rip Esselstyn:
I look at your physique, your body now, and to me, it's much different than when you were that person or that diver. I mean, you're much more muscular.
Paul de Gelder:
Oh yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
You're bigger. It seems like you're stronger.
Paul de Gelder:
I'm a little unfit at the moment because of visiting Austin and my friends were making me drink beer all week. I don't hate it. In the Army, there's photos of me in the Army before I deployed with the UN as a peacekeeper. I look like a prisoner of war. I looked skeleton, but I could run forever, swim forever, pack march forever. I had the battalion record for push-ups, 136 push-ups in two minutes.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow.
Paul de Gelder:
But then I got to the Navy, you got fitter. But we were doing a lot of cardio. You get starved when you're in the Army because you're out in the bush all the time. But now I don't have to worry about that. I eat, and the one thing I love about being plant-based or vegan is I can eat so much food, and I don't get fat. I was always concerned in the beginning about going plant-based that I'd lose all that hard fought muscle because I don't gain it very easily. I have to fight for every ounce of muscle, and I was very scared I was going to lose my gains. Lose my gains, bro. But I didn't. And I worked it out. It's not that complicated. Eat lots of food, lift heavy weights up and down. It's very simple.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Well, it's more than that. I mean, you are cut. You are ripped. You are.
Paul de Gelder:
Well, I wish.
Rip Esselstyn:
Do you remember, I did an Instagram post where I think I was diving into a... Oh, it was one of these huge kent mangoes.
Paul de Gelder:
Oh yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
And I said, "This is the size of one of Paul de Gelder's biceps." I think I said Jesse Itzler's head. Anyway, it got a fun response.
Paul de Gelder:
Well, look, man, I don't do it for the muscles. Obviously that helps. Makes you look good. You look better. But that's my therapy, man. I do it because that's my time in my head. I get a lot of people asking me, "I'm coming out to LA. Can I come workout with you?" Nope. "Oh, what?" People need to find their power of no. People are very eager to please. Then they'll go out of their way to do things that they don't want to do. It's okay to say no. Don't be a dick about it and help people out obviously, but no, I don't workout with people because that is my time. That is my therapy. I put on my music. I get in my own head, and I lift. It's simple. I just lift heavy things up and down, and I workout. And I sweat, and I torture my body and that makes me feel good like I've achieved something. I really, really enjoy it. It's like speaking. Speaking and lifting weights are my therapy.
Rip Esselstyn:
How often do you like to lift?
Paul de Gelder:
I go every day. I'd go twice a day if I could. But I have an old body from 12 years of Army Airborne and Navy Clearance Diving, and I would just kill myself. Things hurt a lot more now. But in saying that, I haven't had a serious injury since I went plant-based, since I went vegan. I used to get really bad tendinitis in my elbows from cocking machine guns and climbing ropes. Shoulder injuries, back injuries, knee injuries. Haven't had a single bad lingering injury since I went plant-based. I heal quicker. It's weird.
Rip Esselstyn:
Are you single right now? For women out there that are going, "Man, I would love to meet Paul de Gelder." Are you available or no?
Paul de Gelder:
Yes, yes, I am.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yep.
Paul de Gelder:
Got out of a relationship a little while ago. Lovely girl. Just sometimes it's just not right. And I don't mind being alone. I like my own company with my dog. Yeah, I'm single. I'm open to a relationship.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yup. So let me ask you one more thing before I say goodbye, and that is so I know you're going back to Australia here soon.
Paul de Gelder:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Rip Esselstyn:
Is there anything on the horizon that you're most excited about right now?
Paul de Gelder:
The book coming out.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay.
Paul de Gelder:
So the new edition of the book. So I released a book with Penguin in 2012, did really well. I'm so happy with it, but it never got released in America. They sold out and Penguin just decided they weren't reprinting it. So I wanted to share the stories that I have and the messages with people of my new country where I live in America. So I rewrote the whole story with a friend of mine, a veteran who is incredible writer. He was a ghost writer for James Patterson. Got a bunch of his own books called Grant Jones is his name. Runs a Veteran State of Mind Podcast. So he helped me rewrite the first part, and then 2012 to 2021 I have all of these amazing documentary stories about catching crocodiles and diving with great whites without a cage and trying not to die. Cutting holes in my bum of my wetsuit.
Paul de Gelder:
So I'm re-releasing that probably around my birthday, end of March. It's called Uncaged. Should be available everywhere you find books.
Rip Esselstyn:
Fantastic. And for people that want to follow you on Instagram or whatever, what's your handle?
Paul de Gelder:
Mostly on Instagram. It's just my name, Paul de Gelder.
Rip Esselstyn:
Paul de Gelder.
Paul de Gelder:
If you forget that, you can just Google Navy Diver shark attack. I'm the only one in the world apparently.
Rip Esselstyn:
Got it. Well, Paul, this has been great running into you in Austin, Texas.
Paul de Gelder:
Yeah, thanks for lunch.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, yeah. Lunch was great. And anytime you want to come back, let me know. Be happy to host you either here or at the house.
Paul de Gelder:
Cool, man. I'm down. I hear summer out here's incredible on the river and the lakes.
Rip Esselstyn:
They are. It's great. All right, man. Hey, peace.
Paul de Gelder:
Cheers, dude.
Rip Esselstyn:
Engine 2. Keep it Plant-Strong.
Rip Esselstyn:
I want to repeat a shocking fact Paul mentioned early in the episode. There are on average about seven, count them, seven shark attacks each year. But humans kill approximately 100 million sharks. That is staggering. We can do better, and thanks to people like Paul de Gelder, we're learning how we can embrace the power of change for good.
Rip Esselstyn:
So whether you're afraid of sharks or lifestyle change or even your own mortality, we hope you'll be inspired by Paul de Gelder's story.
Rip Esselstyn:
Next week, we tackle health and mortality head on with cardiologist Dr. Brian Asbill.
Rip Esselstyn:
Thank you for listening to the Plant-Strong Podcast. You can support the show by taking a quick minute to subscribe, rate and review at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Sharing the show with your network is another great way to help us reach as many people as possible with the great news about plants.
Rip Esselstyn:
Thank you in advance for your support. It means everything to me.
Rip Esselstyn:
Have you had your own Galileo moment that you'd like to share? What happened when you stepped into the arena and shed the beliefs that you thought to be true? I'd love to hear about it. Visit PlantStrongPodcast.com to submit your story and to learn more about today's guests and sponsors.
Rip Esselstyn:
The Plant-Strong Podcast team includes Carrie Barrett, Laurie Kortowich, Ami Mackey, Patrick Gavin, and Wade Clark. This season is dedicated to all of those courageous truth seekers who weren't afraid to look through the lens with clear vision and hold firm to a higher truth. Most notably, my parents, Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn Jr. and Ann Crile Esselstyn. Thanks for listening.
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