#71: Brenda Davis, RD: Nourish - Finding Balance at the Table
Brenda Davis, RD
She has been called the "Godmother of Vegan Dietitians" and the "High Priestess of Vegan Nutrition" and today, we're proud to welcome friend, author, and plantstrong pioneer, Brenda Davis, to the podcast.
Brenda is the author of 12 books and she’s been a speaker at our Plant-Stock events for years. Not only does she captivate with the energy of a teenager, but her evidence-based research leaves folks inspired regardless of where they are on their own journey to health.
That’s why we're excited to discuss topics in her latest book, “Nourish: The Definitive Plant-Based Nutrition Guide for Families” that she co-wrote with Pediatrician, Dr. Reshma Shah.
We're often asked about how we do it in the Esselstyn house. People want to know how to feed their children healthy foods in a fast-paced, junk food society without sacrificing the nutrients needed in order to grow and thrive.
Today, Brenda addresses some of these common concerns that parents may have...Things like - of course- protein...iodine, calcium, iron, zinc, B-12...you know...all the same things we worry about as adults!
The goal of this book is not to just provide confidence in plant-based nutrition for health at any age, but also build a life-affirming connection within your family. “Nourish” offers the solution parents have been waiting for when it comes to deciding what and how to feed their families.
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Brenda Davis, RD:
Yeah. I mean, everybody seems to talk about where do you get your protein. Well, the real question is, where are you getting your fiber because so many people are deficient. I think it's like 1% of children that meet the recommended intakes for fiber. It's almost none of them because they're eating processed foods all the time.
Rip Esselstyn:
Season Three of the Plant Strong Podcast explores those Galileo moments where you seek to understand the real truth around your health, and dare to see the world through a different lens. This season, we honor those courageous seekers who are paving the way for you and me. So grab your telescope, point it towards your future, and let's get plant strong together.
Rip Esselstyn:
She has been called the godmother of vegan dietitians and the high priestess of vegan nutrition, and today, I'm proud to welcome friend, author, and plant strong pioneer, Brenda Davis to the podcast. Brenda is the author of 12, yes, 12 books, and she's been a speaker at our Plant-Stock events for years, and is always a crowd favorite. Not only does she captivate with the energy of a teenager, better evidence-based research leaves folks inspired regardless of where they are on their own plant-based journey to health. You have questions, Brenda has answers, and likely a book about it as well.
Rip Esselstyn:
That's why I'm particularly excited about this episode, where we discuss topics in her latest book, Nourish: The Definitive Plant-Based Nutritional Guide for Families that she co-wrote with pediatrician, Dr. Reshma Shah. As a father of three plant strong children, I'm often asked about how we do it in the Esselstyn house. I welcome these questions because I don't think people are generally coming from a place of judgment, but more from a place of curiosity. They really truly want to know how to feed their children healthy foods in a fast-paced junk food society without sacrificing the nutrients needed in order to grow and thrive.
Rip Esselstyn:
Today, Brenda addresses some of these common concerns that parents may have, things like, of course, protein, iodine, calcium, iron, zinc, B12. All the same things that we worry about and are concerned about as adults. The goal of this book is not just to provide confidence in plant-based nutrition for health at any age, but also build a life affirming connection within your family. Nourish offers the solution parents have been waiting for when it comes to deciding what and how to feed their families. Let's dig in with Brenda Davis.
Rip Esselstyn:
Brenda, this is your first time on the Plant Strong Podcast. I want to welcome you.
Brenda Davis, RD:
Well, thank you for having me, Rip.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh, yeah. And this is season three. I can't believe I've had two seasons and I haven't had you. It's a really appropriate moment to have you on the Plant Strong Podcast because you came out with a new book, here it is right here, it's called Nourish, it's absolutely gorgeous. I've read it cover to cover. It is really stupendous. You've done a fantastic job with it. And I want you to know that on season three of the Plant Strong Podcast, we're celebrating the leaders who have demonstrated the courage to seek and also be champions of the truth. And I know that you have been a champion of the truth in nutrition now since when, 1980 what?
Brenda Davis, RD:
1989.
Rip Esselstyn:
1989. Can you share with our audience, so what led you to that place in 1989 where you really embraced, do you like a plant-based or vegan, what is your ...
Brenda Davis, RD:
You know what, I'm good with both. I'm an ethical vegan, but I'm also a whole food plant-based person, so I'm good with both. My husband and I have been married for 42 years and we just found ourselves slowly gravitating. I graduated in 1982 from my nutrition program and we just find ourselves gravitating towards more and more plant-based diets. We were eating more lentils and tofu and gradually getting rid of meat. And a lot of it was about trying to leave a softer footprint, trying to eat a more healthful, higher fiber diet, and just a combination of a variety of things. And I was actually a public health nutritionist in the late 80s when I decided to, or I should say, we decided to make a transition to a more completely whole food plant-based diet.
Brenda Davis, RD:
And for me, it was really an ethical decision because I thought to myself, why am I contributing to so much pain, suffering and death when I don't have to. I want the world to be a more compassionate place. I think the way that animals are being raised is just wrong, it's unjustifiable. And I thought, if I can't do it as a registered dietician with all of this knowledge about nutrition, who can? And maybe if I take these steps, I can help others who want to do the same to do it really well.
Brenda Davis, RD:
And to be quite honest, I was really afraid because everything that I had learned was based on these four food groups, half of which were animal products. It was really scary for me. I'd never met or another real live vegan dietitian. I met one vegetarian in my whole life. I just didn't know if I could do it or if I'd be ousted from the profession, because it was considered in those days a real fringe diet. I always liked to be liked by everyone. I didn't want to be one of those people that was fringy and everybody was pointing to, and she's not saying the truth.
Brenda Davis, RD:
I really thought about doing some other career, but I decided that if I didn't stay and help people who wanted to make more ethical and an ecologically sustainable choices, who would? And I thought, I just have to have the courage to stand up for what I believe in. And so I can remember thinking, the one thing that I'll make sure I do is I'll make sure that everything I say is evidence-based, and that I know my stuff, my I's are dotted, my T's are crossed, and I can debate with anyone on the topic. And so, that was kind of the way I proceeded. And to my great delight, my profession didn't oust me. They actually loved that there was somebody creating guidelines and providing that kind of support for their patients who wanted or their clients who wanted to do this. I had that little niche and I found Vesanto, my writing partner. We just plugged away at trying to create resources that were useful and evidence-based.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, boy, did you ever. Look at where you are now since 1989. Is Nourish your 12th book or your 11th?
Brenda Davis, RD:
It's my 12th book.
Rip Esselstyn:
It's your 12th book. So you've previously written 11 books that have sold close to a million copies. You've been referred to as the godmother of vegan dietitians and the high priestess of vegan nutrition. Anybody that's had the pleasure of hearing you speak, and you speak all over the globe, knows that you back up everything you just said, everything is evidence-based, you dot every I, you cross every T. You really are immaculate when it comes to your presentations. We've had you to numerous of our events, and the most recent one was Plant-Stock 2020. And you gave a great talk on keto, the keto diet.
Rip Esselstyn:
I'd love to dive into Nourish just a little bit here. So first, tell me, you've written 11 books, you probably at some point are like wow, do I really have another book in me? Why Nourish, why now, why Reshma? Tell me about that.
Brenda Davis, RD:
I was actually on an airplane going to speak at the Plantrician Project, and I was with a friend and she sat in the aisle, I sat in the window, and we wanted that middle seat free so we could put all our stuff. The flight was packed and Reshma sat right between us, and that's how I met Reshma. And we just started talking and I found out she was going to the same conferences as I was. And we became friends. We just started hanging out at the conference, met there again the next year. I remember her saying something like, "I want to do more in the plant-based world." And I said, "Well, Reshma, what we really need is a book for families, for children. We don't have one. A guidebook, something comprehensive." And she said, "I'll tell you what, I'll do it if you'll do it with me." I said, "Well, I've got two book contracts." I had the Kick Diabetes Cookbook and Kick Diabetes Essentials to write. And I said, "Once those two are done, I'm on. I'll do it with you." And so, that's how it came to be.
Rip Esselstyn:
What year was that that you guys were sitting next to each other?
Brenda Davis, RD:
That was probably about four years ago.
Rip Esselstyn:
So how was it working together in writing this book because it's pretty impressive what you guys have put together.
Brenda Davis, RD:
I just feel abundantly blessed by this partnership. Reshma is articulate, she is a fantastic writer. She just is so good at social media, which I'm not. And she just went for it. I never cease to be amazed by your talent. It's just been a joy to work with her.
Rip Esselstyn:
And so, the book is broken up into four parts for the most part, right?
Brenda Davis, RD:
Yes. Absolutely, yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
The first part is consideration, and then the second part is care, then confidence. And then connection. Did you guys break it up where you focused on one part and she focused on another? How did you do that?
Brenda Davis, RD:
Yeah, so we did. So I took more of the sort of hardcore nutrition material. But we did a lot of back and forth. We both had input into all of the sections. She did section one, I did section two, which was kind of the bigger section. And then she did section three, and then we did section four together.
Rip Esselstyn:
It's laid out beautifully.
Brenda Davis, RD:
Thank you.
Rip Esselstyn:
And if you don't mind, I'd love to just read the dedication page. You open it up with a quote from Mother Teresa. It's, "The openness of our hearts and minds can be measured by how wide we draw the circle of what we call family." And then of course, you've dedicated this book to each of your families, which is so I think appropriate. Since your specialty is really like the nuts and bolts of a plant-based diet, and so many parents are concerned about, will my child be getting everything they need on a plant-based diet? What are the deficiencies that are out there, any problems there? So, I'd love if you could just start out with, as a parent who has, let's say children between the ages of two and 17, any issues at all with a plant-based diet?
Brenda Davis, RD:
First of all, I would like to preface what I say with this. When you think about the issues, the nutrition issues that are challenging today's children. They are overweight and obesity. We see type two diabetes, we see children who are living on highly or ultra processed foods. There's a lack of fiber, there's a lack of a lot of trace minerals, there's a lack of even vitamin A and vitamin C and potassium, and all of these important nutrients. And often, parents are quite comfortable feeding their children a fast food kids meal that provides more sodium than the upper limit in one meal. There's hardly any fiber. It's so grossly inadequate. And yet we think this is somehow okay, and feeding a whole food plant-based diet is so scary. 70% of us die of chronic diseases that are largely diet and lifestyle induced.
Brenda Davis, RD:
So we really need to examine why we're questioning something that's so loaded with nutrition. And so, yes, there are some issues, but those issues are really quite easily resolved. And so, the biggest issue for very small children is getting enough calories and making sure that they're, the number one goal for children is adequate growth and development. And a secondary goal is the prevention of long term diseases. But number one is ensuring adequate growth and development. And so, when you're feeding a child a whole food plant-based diet, you want to make sure that it's calorically dense enough to support their growth. Whereas for adults challenge with diabetes and heart disease, we're really pulling out the fat a lot in the diet. For a young child, we don't want to do that. We're looking at a much higher percentage of calories from fat, which would come from things like avocados and nut and seed butters and these kinds of foods, which are perfectly appropriate for young children.
Brenda Davis, RD:
Once you've got that, taken care of, a lot of parents worry about protein, but protein is not a huge issue. Even if you add 20% to the RDA to compensate for a lower digestibility of plant protein from whole plant foods that are high in fiber, it's still not a lot. A young child, one to three years of age, they don't even need 20 grams of protein. There was a study recently done by, it's called the VT study in Germany, and they actually compared the protein intakes of toddlers. And what they found was the omnivores were getting about 2.7 grams per kilogram a day, the vegetarians about 2.3, and the vegans about 2.4 grams of protein per kilogram body weight per day. And the RDA is 1.05 for toddlers of that age. Everybody was over double what they needed. So protein is far less of an issue for children than people imagine it to be.
Rip Esselstyn:
So it sounds like a lot of these kids were twice over the RDA, and sometimes two and a half. Is that a problem?
Brenda Davis, RD:
It's probably not at that level. However, we do know when you get to be three or four times above the RDA, that those high animal protein intakes are definitely associated with more rapid growth and overweight and obesity. So we saw that there was an Australian study that showed that. And in fact, there was a study in the states that showed children average about triple the protein that they require. I think if most of the protein is coming from animal foods, that's a problem. For a vegan child or a plant-based child, I don't think it's as much of a problem because the protein is coming from whole plant foods, which will help to protect the child.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, yeah. I love to say that plant-based proteins are really the Goldilocks of protein.
Brenda Davis, RD:
Yeah, exactly. I love that. That's great.
Rip Esselstyn:
They're not inflammatory. They're very friendly.
Brenda Davis, RD:
It's so consistent with all of the studies we have looking at longevity and disease and protein intakes. There was a huge study in 2016, even 60 calories of protein from animal products, replacing that with plant foods reduces risk of death significantly, if you're replacing processed meat, it's like a 34% reduction. If you're replacing red meat, it's a 12% reduction. Eggs, it's a 19%. And then there was one from Japan that showed even huge results. Again, with that tiny little replacement of 60 calories, 3% of your total calories from animal protein with plant protein and you reduce your risk of, I think it was reduced your risk of cancer by 50% if you're replacing processed red meat and about 45 if it was just red meat. But we see this over and over again, that replacing animal protein with plant protein reduces risk of death and disease.
Rip Esselstyn:
Just based on that, what you just said, all those numbers with plant-based proteins and how they're protective and how they will basically protect you from these diseases and this, how is it that in 2020 that every professional organization institution isn't behind and leaning into plants and having this be their primary kind of message to their constituents?
Brenda Davis, RD:
I think it's starting to shift. I think people are starting to wake up to it, but I think that the biggest barrier is the power of the animal food industry. They have so much power, the CEOs seem to go somewhere between expert panels for the government to their industry and back and forth, and politics. And the agricultural industry is a big part of that whole realm. And so, it's a powerful industry.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, yeah. You've got institutions like the World Health Organization, I mean, you have a whole list in Nourish of all the ones that are on board.
Brenda Davis, RD:
Absolutely.
Rip Esselstyn:
And it's pretty darn impressive.
Brenda Davis, RD:
It is impressive and it's just growing.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Yeah. By leaps and bounds. What are some other things that you want to talk about besides protein?
Brenda Davis, RD:
For little children, we need to worry about iron, we need to worry about zinc, B12, iodine, calcium. And so, those are really key thing. So vitamin D is not a huge issue because normally we start supplementing children from birth with vitamin D drops. And that's just standard most kids do. And so that's something, doesn't matter if you're omnivorous or you're plant based, vitamin D is an issue for everyone. And Reshma I know, she often says, I've treated all kinds of children with vitamin D deficiency, none of whom were plant based. It's an issue for everyone.
Brenda Davis, RD:
Iron is also an issue for everyone. And it's kind of interesting to look, again, your iron stores run out by the time you're about four months of age, somewhere four to six months of age. The first foods we often use are iron fortified foods for children. And some groups say it should be red meat. It should be red meat, should be the first food for child because it's got heme iron and it's an absorbable iron. But I actually went to the USDA nutrient database, this was really fun, and I and I checked out the amount of iron in a variety of foods. Six tablespoons of iron fortified infant cereal will give you the 11 milligrams of iron that a baby is recommend. It's higher than a full grown man. Your iron requirements are eight milligrams, a baby, this little tiny being is like 11 milligrams. So it's almost impossible to get from foods. So iron fortified infant cereal, you get about, I think it took 13 teaspoons of lentils or tofu. But it was like 70 teaspoons of baby beef. It was just huge. And even the chicken was like 40 or something like that.
Brenda Davis, RD:
So this push for beef and chicken and stuff, you're not going to get anywhere close to the RDA for iron using those. The iron fortified instant cereal or if you're really just wanting to do whole food, then you would need to use some iron drops for that stage of the game. And then during the toddler years, iron is still an issue. And so, we just need to be sure. One of the things that a parent can do is use the infant cereal. My daughter, what she does is use two thirds flour, one third infant cereal for all the little breads and whatever she makes. And so, you're getting that added to the diet that way. But of course the best sources of iron for children who are eating plant-based are legumes. Lentils are a wonderful source of iron. And all of the other legumes are a decent source of iron as are some of the seeds, like pumpkin seeds are a wonderful source of iron. So this is an option and should be regularly featured in the diet of children as they grow.
Brenda Davis, RD:
And then the other, B12 is always an issue-
Rip Esselstyn:
Before you move on from iron, is there a way to help the absorption of plant-based irons?
Brenda Davis, RD:
Oh, yeah. So of course you have these two types of iron. You have heme iron, which is really blood iron, heme is blood. That comes from animal products, not dairy, but meat. And then you have non heme iron. And this is really interesting because there are some significant differences. One thing we know about heme iron is it's absorbed just directly into the bloodstream. The rate of absorption is somewhere 15 to 35%. So it's very absorbable, but it also can act as a pro-oxidant. And so, it can increase oxidative stress in the body. And there's no filter for absorbing it. It seems to just get absorbed regardless of what your iron status is. Whereas with the plant iron, a lot of the iron and beans, for example, comes in a form where it's absorbed in this molecule of 1000 units of iron that are slowly released as you need them. And your body has a way of sort of absorbing more if it needs more and absorbing less if it needs less with this non heme iron.
Brenda Davis, RD:
Now, with non heme iron, you absorb less, however, you can dramatically increase your absorption by doing two things. One is by reducing the inhibitors of iron absorption. So being careful about things like phytates and polyphenolic compounds. So phytates, if a child all the eat is unleavened bread and they have very few other foods and they're in an impoverished nation, they end up with iron and zinc deficiency because the unleavened breads, you're not breaking down phytate. And then the other thing is, polyphenolic compounds, which isn't usually as much of an issue for children, it's more an issue for people that drink tea with every meal. Both of these compounds can reduce iron absorption by 50 to 90%. So we need to just be aware of those. You don't want to be sprinkling bran over a child's food, like wheat bran, a lot of people sprinkle wheat bran on their cereal. You don't want to be doing that because it's really high in phytates and it inhibits the absorption of minerals.
Brenda Davis, RD:
Now the other thing you want to do is enhance the, or increase the enhancers of iron absorption. And the biggest one is vitamin C. So when you're eating your bowl of cereal that's got a lot of iron, you want to be having some oranges or grapefruit or strawberries on top or something, Vitamin C, or you're having tofu stir fry or whatever at dinner, you've got some red peppers and broccoli and cauliflower and vegetables with vitamin C. And then garlic and ginger and carotenoids. There are quite a few compounds present in plants that also enhance the absorption of iron. So just by including a lot of fruits and vegetables in the diet, you will increase the absorption of non heme iron.
Rip Esselstyn:
And then when you're doing those vitamins C rich fruits and vegetables, should that be at the same meal or just sometime during the day? Does that matter?
Brenda Davis, RD:
It's much better at the same meal. At every meal, you want to be having some fruit or vegetable. It doesn't matter what meal it is, you want to be doing that. But when you're eating your lentils, that's especially when you want the red peppers there or whatever, some sort of vitamin C rich. It should be at the same meal. It's just like with the inhibitors of absorption, it's more at the same meal. So if you're drinking tea, drink it a couple of hours after you've eaten, or a little bit before you've eaten rather than right with your meal if you're challenged with iron status.
Rip Esselstyn:
That's a great bit of advice. So I think I interrupted you. So you were going on to B12.
Brenda Davis, RD:
Yeah. So B12 is something anyone eating a plant-based diet needs to be aware of because vitamin B12, it's not something that, it's something that's made by bacteria. And so, it's present in animal products. It might be present in some plant products if we didn't sanitize everything so well. So, for example, in Indonesia, where they make tempeh in these old wooden vats that are contaminated with B12 producing bacteria, their tempeh is a really good source of B12. But we tend to do our tempeh in stainless steel, perfectly clean sanitized vat, so we're not going to have a lot of B12.
Brenda Davis, RD:
So even though there's a little bit of B12 in mushrooms, there may be a little bit of B12 in seaweed, when we dry the seaweed, the B12, the active B12 can get converted to inactive forms, which won't serve as B12. So we just need to be aware that, we can't rely on plant foods for B12 unless they're fortified with B12. And so, there are lots of breakfast cereals that are fortified with B12. Most of our non-dairy milks are fortified with B12. Meat analogs like little veggie burgers or sometimes fortified. Things like nutritional yeast, some nutritional yeast are fortified with B12.
Rip Esselstyn:
Like red star.
Brenda Davis, RD:
Yes, red star, and there's some [inaudible 00:29:43], and there are a variety of producers that do. Even red star you have to be cautious because red star has the red star vegetarian support formula and they have the MCB 500, which is not fortified with B12. So you need to make sure that you're getting the vegetarian support formula.
Rip Esselstyn:
Boy, okay, you know your stuff. Okay. What else?
Brenda Davis, RD:
So zinc is another one. But generally, if you're covering your bases for iron, you're also covering your bases for zinc, because zinc is, the concentrated sources are the legumes, the lentils and legumes, lentils are a type of legumes, but other legumes like beans and split peas and all of those. And then again, the seeds. So, when you compare nuts and seeds, the nuts tend not to be quite as concentrated as the seeds in protein and minerals, vitamins and minerals. So, things like hemp seeds and chia seeds and pumpkin seeds.
Brenda Davis, RD:
Now, in the nut category, the cashews are fairly good source of zinc. But also whole grains are a reasonable source. When we refine grains, we remove things like zinc, and we don't add them back. So you're always better off with the whole grain. Yeah, go ahead.
Rip Esselstyn:
You brought up whole grains, and I just want to kind of divert for a second because there's so much swirling, especially with paleo and keto around whole grains and beans, and they're loaded with anti-nutrients and lectins and they're inflammatory. Can you help us separate the wheat from the chaff here and get to the truth?
Brenda Davis, RD:
It's so funny that in that paleo keto world, because they're, well, the keto, especially, are very anti-carbohydrate, I mean, it's an extremely low carbohydrate diet. So all of that's gone. But in the paleo world, they're trying to replicate the diet of our paleolithic ancestors. And so they believe that they didn't consume a lot of legumes and grains, although we actually have really good evidence that they did consume those foods. But the thing that I find the most fascinating where the paleo world is concerned is yes, paleo diets were fairly high protein diets, probably about 30% of calories from protein. However, they were also diets that contained about 100 to 150 grams of fiber. Try to do that without a truckload of plants in your diet. You don't get any fiber from animal products.
Brenda Davis, RD:
I always find it so funny that they're so focused on one key nutrient, protein, to the exclusion of everything else we know about what people actually ate in paleo times. So trying to get 100, 150 grams of fiber without plants, trying to get the seven to 10,000 milligrams of potassium they got without plants. Try to get all of these, the vitamin C, they average like 600 milligrams. Vegans don't average anywhere close to those numbers for those nutrients, and they're getting all plants. And so these diets were extremely high or very plant rich diets. And so I think they need to open their eyes to that a little bit.
Brenda Davis, RD:
Now, in terms of lectins and all of these considerations, lectins, when you cook a food, you destroy the lectins. I mean, literally, they're broken down, it's not an issue. Now, for some people who are very sensitive, I would caution them about, some people are sensitive to lectins. And so, taking, say chickpea flour and making something that's cooked for two minutes, you may still have some lectins there that could be problematic for you. But generally, what people need to understand is there are many different types of lectins. Some of them are found to be anticarcinogenic, some of them are found to actually be quite favorable to health. Some can cause problems, especially with the gastrointestinal system. And so, you would want to be somewhat cautious.
Brenda Davis, RD:
But generally, when we cook beans and lentils, we're cooking them way more than what we need to cook them to destroy the lectins. So it's really not an issue. To me, the acid test is really simple. Look at what the healthiest, longest lived people on the planet consume. If you look at the Blue Zones, the one common feature to every Blue Zone we know of, is that legumes are a dietary staple. If they were poison, they probably wouldn't be a staple in the diets of every long-lived population we know of. To me, that's the acid test, and that's the [inaudible 00:34:38]
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, yeah. You mentioned that in looking back over the paleolithic diet, they were getting 100 to 150 grams of protein, I'm sorry, of fiber. That is an enormous amount. And I'd just love for you to speak for a second on the importance of fiber. It's more than just kind of nature's broom, that helps sweep us clean, and how so many Americans are deficient in fiber.
Brenda Davis, RD:
I mean, everybody seems to talk about, where do you get your protein? The real question is, where are you getting your fiber because so many people are deficient. I think it's like 1% of children that meet the recommended intakes for fiber.
Rip Esselstyn:
1%.
Brenda Davis, RD:
It's really, really small. Really small. It's almost none of them because they're eating processed foods all the time. So, it's a very tiny amount. And that 1% is probably the whole food plant-based children. This is not good news. And I'll tell you why it's not good news, and you know this well, Rip. But it's not good news because years ago, we used to think exactly what you said, it's nature's broom, it helps to keep our intestinal tract clean, it helps to prevent constipation, and that's important. But not the hugest deal, I guess. But now we know, we know that fiber is the food that feeds our gut microbiome. And all of the bacteria in our gut that is absolutely critical to the functioning of every organ in our body, every body system, our blood pressure, our brain function, our heart function, just everything depends on that gut microbiome.
Brenda Davis, RD:
We know this now way more than what we knew at 20 years ago. We had hardly a clue 20 years ago. And when you eat a high fiber diet, you are basically telling that gut microbiome to stay healthy. We're feeding it well, we're promoting the growth of that healthy bacteria in the gut, and reducing the growth of what we call the pathogenic or the harmful bacteria in the gut. And that affects our production of TMAO. It just affects so many things. So, it's absolutely critical. And that's another plus for plant-based for sure.
Rip Esselstyn:
I don't know if you know who Dr. Will Bulsiewicz is, but he wrote a book, Fiber Fueled, and is just knocking it out of the park with fiber and the microbiome and the gut health and all that.
Brenda Davis, RD:
Oh, yeah, a wonderful bestselling book, and I read it cover to cover myself. And it's really important for people to understand that the value of the gut microbiome. So I think it's a great book for people.
Rip Esselstyn:
What about iodine or EPA and DHA?
Brenda Davis, RD:
So those are a couple of issues that are definitely worth discussing. So the iodine issue, when you look at cognitive function in children, the number one reason globally for severe cognitive impairment in children is iodine deficiency, by far the number one cause of preventable, cognitive impairment. And even if you are just marginally deficient in iodine, you can rub your baby of about 10 to 15 IQ points. This is not a nutrient to mess around with.
Brenda Davis, RD:
And what I see in the vegan world, see a lot of the iodine that omnivores get comes from fish and from dairy products. And the reason dairy products are so rich in iodine is because they're used to clean the equipment that we're milking the cows with. So there's a lot of iodine that gets in there for that reason. It's not that it's somehow inherently rich in iodine. And so, if you look at a vegan diet, you're removing some of the key sources of iodine. One of the things that globally we've done to try to put a dent in iodine deficiency and cognitive impairment in children is to iodize salt. It's a cheap vehicle to provide salt to the population. And it's made a huge difference in reducing iodine deficiency globally.
Brenda Davis, RD:
Now, of course, people get concerned about using iodized salt, they get concerned about using any salt. And so, some parents will pick Himalayan pink sea salt or some of these fancy non-iodized salts because they're trying to do whole food plant-based more and so on. And so, there are very few sources of iodine with the exception of seaweed. And seaweed is so loaded in iodine that it's really easy to exceed the upper limit for iodine, and you can flip the coin there and cause problems with thyroid function because you're actually getting too much iodine.
Brenda Davis, RD:
So, just to give you, put this in perspective, if you're eating Nori, which is that kind of little seaweed snack that kids like, it's not an issue.
Rip Esselstyn:
My kids have one of those little packs at least once a day.
Brenda Davis, RD:
Yeah, perfect. It's just not an issue because Nori is not super concentrated in iodine. One of those big square sheets might have 100 milligrams, or micrograms, sorry, 100 micrograms. That's absolutely fine. So what you need for an adult is 150. For Kids, it's 110 to 130 in infancy, and then it goes down to about 90. It's in that ballpark. It's not that far off from an adult intake. But what you do need to be aware of is 1/16th of a teaspoon of kelp powder is 150 micrograms, 1/16th of a teaspoon. And so, if you're being liberal with kelp and pouring it on foods, or eating a lot of kelp, you can go beyond the upper limit very, very quickly. So if you use that as a source in your child's diet, it's a very small sprinkle each day. That's it, and you want to be cautious of that.
Brenda Davis, RD:
The other thing about seaweed is the amount of iodine, it's not consistent like it would be in a supplement. They can vary quite a lot. And so just be aware of that too. But the Nori I think is a pretty good solution. If you get one of those little packs and you get 100 micrograms, and then you're eating a variety of whole plant foods, you're going to get bits from all of those whole plant foods and you should be in the ballpark.
Brenda Davis, RD:
The other thing parents can do is if they are providing a multivitamin mineral supplement, they can select one that includes iodine.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, yep. Well, okay, let's move on if you're good with it to EPA and DHA.
Brenda Davis, RD:
So EPA and DHA, just so people understand, these are omega-3 fatty acids that are the sort of biologically active forms of omega-3 fatty acids. A lot of the brain, the gray matter of the brain is actually DHA, the fat in the brain is actually DHA. It's important for the eyes, it's important every cell membrane of the body, you want these essential fatty acids in these cell membranes. You don't want trans fats and saturated fats or many of them that would compromise the functioning, the flexibility, permeability, all of these important features of cell membranes need to be there. So, these are fats that are extremely important to human health.
Brenda Davis, RD:
And the main source of these fats in the human diet tends to be fish. And so people often get concerned, well, if you're not eating fish, where are you getting your omega-3's? But the reality is you can get omega-3's from plants. So things like flax seeds and chia seeds, and hemp seeds, and walnuts are all sources of omega-3, but the omega-3's in plants are called alpha linolenic acid. And alpha linolenic acid is the essential omega-3 because it can get slowly converted elongated and desaturated into these biologically active omega-3's.
Brenda Davis, RD:
And so, the big question is how efficient is our conversion. Can we make enough? And the problem with that is we don't really know. We have a few studies showing very poor conversion, but we have some studies showing reasonably efficient conversion, especially in young women. It's a bit of a crapshoot with EPA and DHA. So what we generally recommend is if you're pregnant or lactating, you probably have pretty good conversion, but what we know is in vegan breast milk, the levels are significantly lower than they are in omnivores breast milk. So we generally would recommend including at least 200 milligrams of DHA a day because it's so important for a baby's brain development.
Brenda Davis, RD:
So we would say a supplement of 300 milligrams with 200 milligrams DHA daily for a pregnant or lactating woman is probably a pretty good idea. For children, again, we're not sure, but we believe that the risks are probably outweighed by the benefits, potential benefits, of including a small amount. And so, what we would generally suggest, what people, again, this is something that is a surprise to a lot of people, fish get their omega-3's from plants in the ocean. And this is funny too because animals get their essential amino acids from plants because plants make all the essential amino acids or the little components that build our protein. It's the same with the omega-3 fatty acids, they're made by plants. Fish have them because they get them at some point on the food chain from these plants.
Brenda Davis, RD:
And so, what you can do is actually culture these plants, and they come in liquid form often, and they're flavored, and you can take a little bit of these things. Now, is it essential? We don't know. The guess is that children who have never had the fish and these things with direct forms of EPA and DHA probably get pretty efficient at converting, they probably produce plenty of, down to 60 saturates and all of the enzymes necessary for these conversions. But we're not quite there with the research, we don't have a lot of studies.
Brenda Davis, RD:
And so, parents can play it safe and include a little bit, or they can try. The other thing is testing isn't common and it's not very accurate at this point in time. So you can get omega-3 tests, but they're a bit questionable, and they're not, you don't walk into your doctor's office and he easily orders an omega-3 test. We're not there yet.
Rip Esselstyn:
Are there any telltale signs of deficiencies with that?
Brenda Davis, RD:
What I would suggest the telltale signs of deficiencies, you have to say, well, what do omega-3's do for us. Omega-3's will help with the functioning of your cell membranes, they'll help with your brain function, they help with your eyes, they help with all of the, fats in general will help with protection of, with a lot of body systems, the production of hormones. The omega-3 fatty acids are important for these hormone, like the production of hormone like compounds that affect inflammation and blood pressure, and all of these different body systems.
Brenda Davis, RD:
And so, if you're really challenged with some of those things, like blood pressure, inflammation, all of those, it may be worth trying to see if that's an issue. Certainly, you can get your levels tested, but as I said, it's still a little questionable how accurate those tests are. So, it's not like there's some big red flag, and that's part of the issue. So it's really hard to know. I myself take EPA and DHA maybe twice a week, because I figure, most of the experts in omega-3 nutrition will say eat fish twice a week. So I figure, okay, I'm going to take EPA and DHA twice a week as somebody that, taking in probably a little less than someone eating fish. And then I do everything else to maximize my conversion. So I eat a lot of flax and chia and hemp. I don't eat a lot of saturated fat or trans fats, or any of those things. My diet's a good. I don't overdo omega-6's and that can compromise conversion.
Brenda Davis, RD:
So if you eat a lot of omega-6's, so you're pouring the safflower and the sunflower oil on your food, you're going to reduce your ability to convert alpha linolenic acid into the longer chain omega-3's. And people eating a lot of fat, that can impair conversion as well. If you're eating a 40% fat diet versus a 20% fat diet, your conversion will be a lot less with the 40%.
Rip Esselstyn:
And those omega-6's are found predominantly in processed oils, and then also processed foods, right?
Brenda Davis, RD:
Exactly, exactly.
Rip Esselstyn:
And if you look at the USDA, and what Americans have been eating, and I know you're from Canada, but Americans, 60% of our calories are coming from processed and refined foods. And so you're right, there's a huge imbalance between those omega-6's and omega-3's that's not healthy.
Brenda Davis, RD:
No. So you just want to be aware of that you're getting a source of omega-3 in your daily diet. And so if you're not using any supplements, you're wanting to make sure that you're using chia seeds, flax seeds, hemp seeds, walnuts. And if you're trying to really, well for children, all of these things are good choices. But do be aware with flax seeds you're not going to get much omega-3 if they're whole, so you need to grind them. And chia seeds, they're not as hard as flax seeds and often they're soaked to make chia pudding and such. You'll get a little more from them. But grinding them, if you're just sprinkling them on foods, can help as well with the chia seeds.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Tell me, Brenda, so what supplements do you take over the course of maybe a week?
Brenda Davis, RD:
People might be surprised at me saying this, but I generally take a multivitamin mineral supplement, but I use a whole food supplement. And I do that because I want to make sure I've got a source of iodine, I don't use a lot of salt. I also want to make sure I'm getting a little bit of extra choline, and there's a few nutrients. I like getting the boost of zinc, especially during COVID. So, I use a whole food, it's a company in Canada where they, so there's no folic acid, it's folate, it's all non-synthetic nutrients. It's got a reasonable amount of vitamin D as well so it's that extra little bit of vitamin D. And then I do the EPA DHA like maybe twice a week, and I'm not very good at remembering it. So sometimes it's like twice a month.
Rip Esselstyn:
Is that pretty much it, the multivitamin and then the DHA and EPA?
Brenda Davis, RD:
Sometimes I take a B12 as well because the B12, you can't really rely on from a multi, I mean, if the multi is a really good quality and it breaks down well, you'll get the B12. But often the amounts of B12 in multis is really small. And so just taking an extra 1000 micrograms a week, and then I don't worry about it. So that's the other one that I take.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, yeah. You're not going to believe it, but our time has just flown by. It's just crazy to me. I feel like I need to have you on again for another segment where we can dive into prebiotics, probiotics. We can dive into soy, we can dive into, you talk about in the book, how really, over the last decade, there's been three huge dietary trends. One is plant-based, which is predominantly carbohydrate rich, paleo, which is protein rich, and keto, that is fat rich. And I'd love to dive into though, just those three different dietary trends. What's going on with them? What are some of the pros and cons in each?
Brenda Davis, RD:
I would love to. Thanks, Rip, I would love to.
Rip Esselstyn:
Let me just close by saying that anybody that's out there, Nourish, it will nourish your soul. It's fantastic for families. Brenda, I know that your personal and professional goal is to make this world a kinder and more compassionate place. You and all your work and what you and Reshma have done with Nourish, you're totally making that happen, and you're giving families just a beautiful, beautiful, clear path to help get there.
Brenda Davis, RD:
Thank you so much. Have a great day.
Rip Esselstyn:
Bye, Brenda.
Brenda Davis, RD:
Bye. Bye, Rip.
Rip Esselstyn:
Isn't Brenda fantastic? She is clearly an expert, but her optimism is the thing to me that is so addicting. I hope that this conversation encourages your family to try something new one step at a time. Perhaps it's a new recipe or maybe you'll plant a small garden together like we did. There is no better way to share love and health than through healthy food. Can't get enough, tune in next week as we continue this talk about Nourish with coauthor, Dr. Reshma Shah, a plant-based pediatrician and affiliate clinical instructor at Stanford University School of Medicine.
Rip Esselstyn:
I get emails from people all the time sharing how they have taken our free seven day challenge or attended one of our weekend events, and they've gotten really jazzed about making the switch only to fall off the wagon a few days or weeks later. And I hear the question, how do you make this lifestyle stick? How do you go all in? For me, the answer was and is, it's in the daily details. Making room for my lifestyle is a nonnegotiable. It comes first because without the time and space to ensure I have meals and snacks ready for me, then everything would fall apart. Newsflash here, folks, we get hungry just about every three hours. We do not want to be caught by surprise and have a drive thru as our only meal option. Don't allow yourself to be caught off guard. Build the daily roadmap that will navigate how you move throughout the day, and then it can become easy and painless.
Rip Esselstyn:
Now, yes, it takes some time, but what I found is that when you have the mindset that this matters most, you strip away the decision fatigue and you just eat the next right thing because a, it's available, and b, it's ready for you. If this sounds familiar to you and you want to invest some time in yourself, I strongly recommend you join the waitlist for our Rescue 10X Program. The Plant Strong team has led hundreds of people through this 10 week mindset mastery program, helping them to develop the daily habits needed to make this, well, mindless. Stop negotiating with yourself, discover your deepest why. Set attainable goals with my team and be supported live through this 10 weeks of training. Go to the show notes or visit plantstrong.com today to join the waitlist. Our next session will open late March, and I want you to be one of the first to know.
Rip Esselstyn:
Thank you for listening to the Plant Strong podcast. You can support the show by taking a quick minute to subscribe, rate and review at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Sharing the show with your network is another great way to help us reach as many people as possible with the great news about plants. Thank you in advance for your support, it means everything to me.
Rip Esselstyn:
Have you had your own Galileo moment that you'd like to share? What happened when you stepped into the arena and shed the beliefs that you thought to be true? I'd love to hear about it. Visit plantstrongpodcast.com to submit your story and to learn more about today's guests and sponsors. The Plant Strong podcast team includes Carrie Barrett, Laurie Kortowich, Ami Mackey, Patrick Gavin and Wade Clark. This season is dedicated to all those courageous truth seekers who weren't afraid to look through the lens with clear vision and hold firm to a higher truth, most notably, my parents, Dr. Caldwell B. Esselstyn Jr. and Ann Crile Esselstyn. Thanks for listening.
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