#199: Vesanto Melina MS, RD and Cory Davis MBA, P.Ag - The Muscle Behind Plant-Powered Protein
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Authors, Vesanto Melina and Cory Davis dispel myths and misconceptions of plant-based protein
We joke today that there are three things that plant-based eaters must face – death, taxes, and the dreaded question, “Where Do You Get Your Protein?!”
Well, today, we tackle the ever-popular topic of protein with two of the authors of a recent book, Plant Powered Protein.
Vesanto Melina and Cory Davis dispel the myths and misconceptions about plant-based protein - and - (and this is the part we love) make the science understandable and digestible.
Let’s put to rest that you can’t get enough protein at various stages of life including pregnancy, infancy, childhood, adulthood, your senior years, and even for the athlete population.
You can get plenty of protein and this book shows you how with easy-to-follow protein recommendations and recipes so that you never feel deprived or deficient.
Let’s also put to rest those myths that plant protein is somehow weaker or not complete. Whole food plant-based sources of protein are not only superior to our animal sources, but also have a lighter carbon footprint and the ability to reduce the risk of chronic diseases. It’s time to eat strong food.
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Full YouTube Transcript
Rip Esselstyn:
For many of us, it is camping season. And if you guys like baked beans, you will love our all new sweet and smokey chili. It's a tangy subtly sweet chili featuring plump, oversized pinto beans, fire roasted red peppers and ancho chilies. It has this robust flavor from roasted garlic and caramelized onions, and we have created a mouthwatering meal solution that's packed with protein and fiber. It's your favorite campfire food without any of the refined sweeteners or excessive sodium.
Fun facts. In making this dish, we used layer on layer of roasted and smoky flavors from red bell peppers, onions, garlic, paprika, and sundried tomatoes. It was beyond challenging, but it was so worth the wait. This is a sweet and smoky chili, but there's no refined sugars and it's sweetened with whole blended dates. I hope that you try this Plantstrong team favorite. It's available online at plantstrongfoods.com and in June, coming to a whole food market near you.
I'm Rip Esselstyn and welcome to the Plantstrong Podcast. The mission at Plantstrong is to further the advancement of all things within the plant-based movement. We advocate for the scientifically proven benefits of plant-based living and envision a world that universally understands, promotes and prescribes plants as a solution to empowering your health, enhancing your performance, restoring the environment, and becoming better guardians to the animals we share this planet with. We welcome you wherever you are on your Plantstrong journey, and I hope that you enjoy the show.
We joke today that there are three things that plant-based eaters must face, death, taxes, and the question, where do you get your protein? Well, today we tackle that ever-popular topic of protein with two of the authors of Plant Powered Protein. Vesanto Melina, along with Cory Davis, dispels so many of the myths and, misconceptions about plant-based protein, and this is the part that I love, make the science understandable and digestible.
So let's put to rest that you can't get enough protein at various stages of life, including pregnancy, infancy, childhood, adulthood, your senior years, and even for the athletic population. You can. This book shows you how to do this with easy to follow protein recommendations and recipes so that you never feel deprived or deficient.
Let's also put to rest those myths that plant protein is somehow weaker or not complete. Whole food plant-based sources of protein are not only superior to our animal sources, but also have a lighter carbon footprint and the ability to reduce the risk of chronic diseases. Welcome Vesanto Melina and Cory Davis to the Plantstrong Podcast.
All right, here we are, another episode of the Plantstrong Podcast. We're going to be tackling a subject that it really, to me, doesn't need tackling, but we're going to tackle it because as Vesanto Melina and Cory Davis in the very, this is the first paragraph of their new book, Plant Powered Protein, they write for plant-based eaters, there are only three certainties in life; death taxes, and where do you get your protein? So we want to tackle that once and for all today. So Vesanto and Cory, how are you guys doing today? Where are you?
Vesanto Melina:
Very well. I'm in Vancouver, Canada, thriving.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh, that's just a delicious place to be, isn't it?
Vesanto Melina:
Yeah, and I'm thriving at 81 years old.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wait, did you say you're thriving at 81 years old?
Vesanto Melina:
I am, yeah. This year I did a little mini triathlon and I'm keeping fit in all kinds of ways and healthy. I want lots of old vegans around. I do.
Rip Esselstyn:
I know you can't have enough old vegans around. That's great. Now, Cory, your mother is Brenda Davis, the infamous Brenda Davis that's probably written 115 books on being vegan and Plantstrong. So are you kind of following in the family footsteps?
Cory Davis:
I'm certainly trying to. It's big footsteps to fill for sure, but going on a different route. I'm a professional agrologist, which is the science of production of agriculture pretty much. It encompasses other fields such as agronomy, soil sciences. So my passion is really in the environmental science realm. I'm zooming in here from Courtney British Columbia, which is on Vancouver Island. A beautiful place to live and be.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Yeah. I was there once for a wedding. One of my good triathlete friends got married there and it was heavenly. So the Vesanto, Cory, how did this book come to fruition?
Vesanto Melina:
Well, I'll start with this. Our publisher wanted us...and Brenda Davis and I have written books together for 30 years, and our publisher said, write a book about protein. And we said, "There's no problem getting enough protein. We don't need to write a book on that." And he said, "Well, that's what people always ask about. We need to have one on that topic and really get a lot of things clear."
And so we reluctantly did, and then we found it fascinating to write all about the different sides of protein, and so our book came about. Then we had the wonderful advantage. Because there's been such an interest in environmental issues in climate change lately, we had the wonderful advantage of including Cory about different protein sources and how they impact or effect on climate change.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wonderful. I definitely want to dive into that and this whole... We'll, really, there's a whole chapter or two in the book on global protein and how we have a planet that is in major peril right now because of it. So Cory, I look forward to you talking about that. But first, let's just, let's start by taking a step back. Let's set the stage. Plant and animal protein, where do we start, Vesanto?
Vesanto Melina:
Well, some people have noticed that there's really big animals that are vegan. They eat plants. Can you think of how many there are, like gorillas and hippopotamuses and mooses and just all kinds of animals, cows, horses that eat plants, and they have lots of muscles and big bones? So that's one of the clues that we have that this can work.
Now of course, our metabolism is slightly different, but the other area that people have questioned a lot is can we get all the amino acids from plant foods? And it turns out that every single amino acid we require comes from plants. So even the animals that are carnivores, they get their amino acids from the plants as well.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right. Would you say that...? So in the most in your research, because let me say that you guys in this book, you provide a absolute ton of scientific studies, tables, charts, nutritional analysis, showing how plant-based protein is absolutely a high quality champion type of protein. So would you say it is superior to animal protein or inferior to animal protein, or is that not a way to look at it?
Vesanto Melina:
Well, the actual protein is equal, including in body building. So there have been studies for athletes and studies for seniors, because as seniors we can develop sarcopenia, we can lose muscle mass. They find that if you're eating, say, soy or you're eating some animal protein, you have equal development of muscle mass, so they're really equivalent. We got on a wrong track early because a lot of the research was on rats. And of course, I've been around for a long time and seen this research.
My dad was a physiologist, and so I was really interested in science from the beginning. But with these rat studies, rats double their weight from week four to week eight, double their weight, and that was the kind of studies that were done. Okay, what foods will do that best? Well, cheese does it well, and animal proteins. They also grow fur all over their body, and that takes certain sulfur amino acids.
Humans actually do not typically want to double their weight in four weeks. They don't, and they don't want to grow fur all over their body. We have really different goals for health than these weanling rats. So in the fifties, that rat research kind of put us on the wrong track, but we find with humans that the plant proteins work perfectly well. Soy is a strong contender for building muscle mass.
Rip Esselstyn:
I want to come back to the soy and building muscle mass in a little bit. But you mentioned how these tests that were done in the fifties with rats and how they're different than us and that they double their weight very quickly when they're young. But a mother's mother rat's breast milk is what, 51% protein, if I'm not mistaken?
Vesanto Melina:
Yeah, but these were weanling rats that they studied.
Rip Esselstyn:
Weanling. Okay.
Vesanto Melina:
Weanling, meaning they just got off the mother's milk.
Rip Esselstyn:
Weanling, that's what that word means. Weanling. Okay, so they were weaned off the breast. Okay. Okay. I'm with you now. I'm tracking you. Okay. So they were fed then, what, you're saying, cheese and-?
Vesanto Melina:
Let's try different things. Okay, we'll give them some rice. That was another thing with these studies that wasn't very accurate, they'd give them one thing. Okay, how do you little weanling rats do on rice? How do you do on cheese? How do you do on some other animal protein? And then they'd track their growth. So that was what put us on the wrong track. It wasn't only that they need different types of protein. They only got one kind of protein. Now no humans want to live on only one thing.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. So one of the things that a lot of people talk about is what is the digestibility or the bioavailability of this particular ingredient or source, this food? You guys talk about it pretty extensively with different proteins, right, plant verse animal.
Vesanto Melina:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
When I was interviewing Colin Campbell, this is probably a year ago or so, and I'm trying to remember exactly, so I may not get this right, so try and help me out here. But I believe that he said that for a protein source to have a high bioavailability isn't necessarily a good thing.
Vesanto Melina:
Yeah, yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Because it can then incite the growth of latent tumors and cancers and things of that nature. Does that ring a bell at all with you?
Vesanto Melina:
He knows a lot about that aspect of things, right? Yeah. And what we find is that there's about a 10% difference in the digestibility between plant protein and animal protein. So we add that into the recommended intakes. It's not officially in the RDAs or recommended intakes for vegetarians that they need 10% more. We find that if they're eating some of the things like tofu and peanut butter that are very easily digested, we don't add it in.
But typically when I'm working with clients, I just add in 10% and it's not hard to get at all. They're usually way up there anyway on a plant-based diet, but we do add the 10% for digestibility of plant foods being a bit different. That's because there's lots of fiber in there. Now, fiber and the reasons that cause that different digestibility, that's a huge benefit in many other respects.
Rip Esselstyn:
So that was going to be my next question to you, and I really wanted to challenge you on that is because I would think that that fiber is there intentionally by mother nature, so that it is not as digestible, so there's not as great of a bioavailability. So then why are you asking people to then add another 10% on top of that?
Vesanto Melina:
Well, because that means the absorption of the protein might be a little less. The fiber kind of sends it whooshing through a bit and so we just want to add and make sure. Now, we haven't found protein deficiencies. When we have these huge studies like the Adventist Health Study and look at the protein intakes we're not finding protein deficiencies in plant-based diets. People are easily getting enough.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh, I would think so. I mean, as far as I know, I don't know of a case of kwashiorkor that's been reported in North America in the last decade or so. Do you?
Vesanto Melina:
No, and we used to look at that. In the sixties and seventies we saw they'd have these flag signs in their hair, a little white section where they didn't have quite enough protein to make their hair black, but they had enough to keep their heart going. So the body goes very cleverly, yeah, let's go for the heart and not worry about the hair getting white. That was kwashiorkor signs and that was happening in other parts of the world, not in the developed countries. We seem to have sorted that out quite well in time since.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wait, wait, wait. Yeah, I want to make sure I understand what you just said. So what did you say about the hair turning white? What was that?
Vesanto Melina:
It's called a flag sign. Remember, we had little pictures. I was teaching university.
Rip Esselstyn:
No. I know nothing of what you speak of right now.
Vesanto Melina:
So they'd have their little section of hair and they have a white section. It's called the flag sign.
Rip Esselstyn:
Like Josie and the cats?
Vesanto Melina:
Yeah, and that was where their protein intake was so low that their body would go, oh, we're not going for putting melanin coloring in the hair. We can't afford any extra protein for that sort of thing. We'll just keep the heart going.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay. So you are attributing that white spot in the hair to somehow or another, maybe a lack of protein that is not going out into the roots of the hair because it wants to focus on some of the important organs.
Vesanto Melina:
That's exactly what happens. Our body's quite clever, but it was one of the really clear signs of kwashiorkor in children.
Rip Esselstyn:
Why was that happening then? Were these people that were... what were they that they were getting these white streaks of hair?
Vesanto Melina:
Oh, yes, important point. They were not only short of protein, they were short of calories. They just weren't getting enough food. So their food was just insufficient supply all around, and in the process there was insufficient protein.
Rip Esselstyn:
And why were these people not getting enough calories? What were they doing?
Vesanto Melina:
Oh, they were in developing countries. There just wasn't enough food around.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay. Okay. I completely misread what you said. I thought this was like in the sixties, I was thinking of protests about Vietnam or something like that, and people were maybe not eating to do something like Gandhi or something, but no. Okay.
Vesanto Melina:
No, it wasn't that. It was just developing countries.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay. All right. So of all the macronutrients, carbohydrate, fat, and protein, would you say that one is more important than the other? Because it seems to me that this country has put, let's just say North America has put a huge emphasis on protein above everything else.
Vesanto Melina:
An emphasis in where, in the meat and dairy industry promoting their products?
Rip Esselstyn:
No, I'm just saying as a registered dietician, as an RD, in your opinion, is there one macronutrient that's more important than any other?
Vesanto Melina:
Well, we certainly need them all. We need carbohydrates to run our brain. People on low carb diets don't seem to know that and can get the carbohydrate very low. But our brains are fueled by carbohydrates. You need at least 150, 200, 300 grams of carbohydrate a day so that's important. There are essential fats that are required for building around the cell membranes; that's important, and they build our brain as well.
And then the protein is really important for a lot of reasons. Sending messages to different parts of the body, having different compounds built that we require, and of course for muscles. But they're all really important. Now, we had a little bit of a thinking time around needing more protein in The Depression. There was this idea, a chicken in every pot. That was thought to be a really good idea because people were, at that time, short of calories, short of all kinds of things. So that was thought to be a very positive thing.
Now since then, we really have put a halo around protein, that you should get it. It turns out we have lots of food. We have vegetables, fruits, grains, and also the legumes, and we're not short of protein at all. We don't need to be having this animal protein halo anymore.
Rip Esselstyn:
No, we don't but it is there in spades. I can tell you, I just walked the floor of Expo West, which was out in Anaheim, California about three weeks ago. There must have been 8,000 different booths. Each booth was a different food company. I'd say of those 8,000, and I'm not exaggerating, 90% were plant-based companies. Almost every one basically had a call-out on the front of the package saying this many grams of protein.
So it's like everybody is marketing the amount of protein on the front of their packages, and Cory and Vesanto, and they're doing it by putting in all these soy protein isolates and concentrates and pea protein that probably are not healthful types of protein. Do you agree with that or not?
Vesanto Melina:
Do you want to say something, Cory? Yeah.
Cory Davis:
Well, you go for it.
Vesanto Melina:
Okay.
Cory Davis:
It's certainly better for the environment in a lot of regards going for the soy protein isolates. Pea protein specifically has a very low carbon footprint and low footprint in general in terms of water use and pollution and so forth. But I think the question here is really, is it healthy? Is it more healthy to be-?
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, yes, and Cory, I couldn't agree with you more there on the carbon footprint, the size of the carbon footprint. But Vesanto, my question specifically here is they're basically trying to, instead of using whole plant-based foods that have all the protein you need, they're trying to jack it up to the moon by putting in P protein concentrates and soy isolates and whatever. That's not a whole food that doesn't have all the fiber and the antioxidants, the phytonutrients, and all these things. I don't think that that is a smart thing and I'm wondering if you think it is or isn't.
Vesanto Melina:
Well, I work with... I mean, I have our clients, work with people all across the spectrum. I'm more glad that they go plant-based, first thing. So if they're going to eat some veggie meat that will help them get there, that's okay with me. Then I have clients that are really, really purists. They only want to eat whole plant foods. In fact, my husband's a lot. He likes the beans, the vegetables, simple foods. All kinds of people I know are like that, Neil Bernard.
So I'm happy to support people wherever they are on the spectrum. I see those foods as helping people often initiate this stage of eating so it's okay. I don't put it down too much, but I think you're absolutely right that the whole plant foods are really the goal. They're where it's at because they have these protective phytochemicals. They have all kinds of other aspects of healthy nutrition. When you isolate a protein, you use chemicals to extract it, you remove the other nutrients. So I kind of can put a foot in both camps.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Well, and what I've read and heard is that when you have these plant alternatives that are made without any whole food ingredients, it's just pea protein isolates, it's soy, soy concentrates that make up these soy dogs or these soy nuggets or these soy burgers, that it really jacks up your insulin growth factor number one, your IGF1, which is a tumor and cancer promoter.
So usually with the people that I'm dealing with that are overweight, sick, they're trying to get healthy, we advise against it. Now, I hear you. If you're working with a half Ironman triathlete that's maybe trying to get their protein stores up and eating becomes a fourth event.
Vesanto Melina:
That's right. I just had a relative come over that isn't on the vegan wavelength at all. He thinks he'll never be vegan. I bet he will but anyway, eventually. But he found one of these new veggie burgers. He said, "That one was the best one. I wouldn't mind actually eating that one." So I'm glad to have that as a start.
Now, even if you look at the things like the veggie burgers or the meat alternatives, you'll find some that are actually made from whole plant foods. Once I've had a sort of cooking class and we had 10 kinds of veggie burgers and people got to try them all. That's kind of a fun thing to do, to look around the different skews and shelves and see what there is there.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh, yeah, absolutely. So one of the things that you guys write about in the book, and I want to talk about it just for a second, and that is how, basically, animal products and animal byproducts have been subsidized tremendously over the last several decades. I think you guys write about how there's almost 20 billion billion annually that goes to subsidies. And of that 20 billion, billion, a small little sliver of a fraction goes to support and subsidize plants.
I mean, what's it going to take for our governments to realize that let's have a pound of ground beef, which is what you talk about in the book. If it wasn't subsidized, it'd be $30 a pound. Let's have that be the case. It will dissuade people from buying it. And then let's really bring down the price of all these fruits and vegetables and whole grains and beans. That seems like an absolute no-brainer.
Vesanto Melina:
That's right, and I think people could be writing to the government. Now, governments are struggling to cover the massive costs we've got with COVID, and all the financial struggles have been. We could be writing to the governments and saying, quit subsidizing meat and slaughterhouses and dairy. Those things are all very, very heavily subsidized. That started in the Depression when farmers were struggling. And understandably, the government started to help them out with the livestock industries, for example.
But in North America, I spoke last year to the California dieticians, and half the dairy farmers had gone out of business in the US but it wasn't there were less cows. They were all just at these huge factory farm situations, and those are the people getting the subsidies now. In Canada, I noticed we've got slaughterhouses subsidized. The situation's crazy.
We have subsidized medicine here. In the US people pay a lot for their medical care, and then we're subsidizing foods that cause those diseases. That's nuts. It's absolutely nuts. So the government could be inspired to cut back on those subsidies just saying, hey, you could save a bit of money here. You could save a lot of money here.
Rip Esselstyn:
A lot. All right, so Cory, anything that you want to add to that whole conversation about subsidies?
Cory Davis:
Yeah. I think it's a really interesting topic. Of course, when we subsidize a product and then put it on the global market, we're artificially reducing that price on the global market. And countries that don't have the resources to necessarily support their livestock sector like we can end up forcing those farmers out of the market entirely. So in impoverished or less well off nations, a lot of the livestock industry had to exit the market entirely because they can't compete with the artificially suppressed cost or price of things like beef and other heavily subsidized products.
So that's something to take in consideration. Millions of people could be uplifted out of poverty if we shifted the way that we are subsidizing certain products. But the monetary, how we subsidize livestock and agriculture goes far beyond just the monetary handouts. I mean, for example, there's been large campaigns against predators, bears and cougars and wolves.
When a wolf takes a cow, for example, oftentimes we will compensate the farmer for that cattle or that cow or sheep that got poached by a wolf. So that's something to take into consideration, how we partition land too. We offer forage on the natural grasslands. That's a part of the commons, as we would call it, or even indigenous land. We partition that out and give it away very cheaply, lease it out, tenure it out. In the early days of settlement, we literally gave it away to the agricultural sector. So those are other pieces that might not often be considered in when we add up what kind of subsidies we're giving to the agricultural industry.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Nice points, Cory. Vesanto, I want to come back to you. So in your opinion, what percentage of our calories should ideally be coming from protein? According to your research that you guys did for this book, how much is the average person's protein consumption exceeding what it should be and are people, in fact, protein toxic?
Vesanto Melina:
Oh, okay. Well, we want at least 10% of our calories to come from protein, at least 10%, and very few plant foods provide less than that so it's not really an issue. What we find overall in people's dietary patterns, say the Seventh Day Adventist studies that have had maybe 90,000 people and significant high numbers of those vegetarian or vegan or eating fish. They've looked across the spectrum, and these are healthy eaters. They're still easily getting the amount of protein, whichever the dietary patterns.
Then we find that the meat-based diets in the general population are often close to double the recommended intake. Certainly, that can be hard on your kidneys. It has a lot of negative health effects down the line for being so high in protein. So there are many factors in meat that are leading to different chronic diseases, the new 5G. When I first started being a dietician teaching university, we thought it was saturated fat, and we thought it was... we weren't sure quite what it was that was leading to these high intakes or high results of cardiovascular disease, diabetes, and so on. But we've got TMAO, we've got new 5G, we've got a number of things that are linked with cancer and heart disease.
Rip Esselstyn:
Endotoxins.
Vesanto Melina:
Yeah, endotoxins. That's right. And one of the other things about subsidies, just going back there for a second, is that it's not only the livestock industry that's being subsidized, but it's the fodder. Huge amounts go to the fodder, and huge amounts go to things like corn, corn syrup, corn for pop, this kind of thing. So we're subsidizing really crazy foods that are linked with chronic disease.
Rip Esselstyn:
You used the word fodder. What's that?
Vesanto Melina:
Fodder. Well, that's what cows eat.
Rip Esselstyn:
How do you spell that?
Vesanto Melina:
F-O-D-D-E-R. I'm Canadian.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay. Fodder. I kind of like that, and weanling kind of got me today.
Vesanto Melina:
Okay, good. I'm Canadian, so...
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. So you guys have a beautiful chart in your book. There's one on page 61, there's one on page 62. On the one on 61, you basically talk about all the protective aspects that are in plant-based proteins, right?
Vesanto Melina:
That's right.
Rip Esselstyn:
Starting with antioxidants and the essential fatty acids, and of course, fiber that most people are sorely deficient in. Cory, before we came on air, I heard you talking, bantering with Vesanto saying something like, "Well, don't ask me where I get my protein, and I won't ask you how high your cholesterol level is," or something like that. But fiber, it seems like everybody, most of the people walking around today are deficient in fiber. Agree Vesanto, Cory?
Vesanto Melina:
That's right, and that fiber supports our healthy, healthy gut microbiota. They love it coming down the tube. Yay, more of that. When we send things like meat and different animal products down, we support more of the negative gut microbiota.
Rip Esselstyn:
But I mean, I want to ask you something point-blank, and I want you to answer to the best that you can. M question is, if you had to be deficient in something, would you rather be deficient in fiber or deficient in protein?
Vesanto Melina:
Huh?
Rip Esselstyn:
Given those two.
Vesanto Melina:
I'm not going to choose.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, Cory, would you like to play the game?
Cory Davis:
Sure. Health aside, I would be deficient in perhaps protein because it might reduce my environmental impact. If we're getting protein from animal sources, it might reduce the ethical burden of harming animals and those are things that I also deeply value. I deeply value the environment and animal welfare and so I think if I had to compromise, perhaps it would be the protein.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, I agree. In everything that I've read, and Vesanto, it's almost impossible for us. Unless you are literally not consuming an adequate amount of calories-
Vesanto Melina:
That's it.
Rip Esselstyn:
... your body will basically recycle the proteins from your muscles and utilize those.
Vesanto Melina:
That's true. Yeah. Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
The reason I'm saying this is because it seems like 75% of this country is overweight. The number one gastrointestinal issue facing North Americans is constipation. We've got all this colorectal cancer that's going on right now. I feel like this lack of fiber, this deficiency in fiber... I think I had Dr. Bulseiwicz, Will Bulseiwicz on the podcast. He said 95% of this country is deficient in fiber, and what percent of the country's deficient in protein?
Vesanto Melina:
Yeah. That's right.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. I mean, really, really. Anyway, I went off on a tangent there, but all the protective benefits, you got the fiber, you got the phytochemicals, you got the plant enzymes, you got the plant steriles, the prebiotics, the probiotics. It's like plants are just like, they're the bomb, the absolute bomb.
Vesanto Melina:
Now, I'll tell you, one place that we are low in protein occasionally is on highly fruit-based diets, because fruit typically is under 10% calories from protein. So I have had a few clients, and I actually taught at Living Light for a while, the raw chef school, and we got them to include some cooked foods as well as raw fruits. But I have seen a few people that were low when they were really focusing on raw fruits.
Rip Esselstyn:
And so tell me, okay, so low. So you mean low in protein?
Vesanto Melina:
Low in protein, low in iron, low in zinc, low. They'd lose their menstrual periods if they were women, that kind of thing. But that's a very unusual diet. The other ones are very, very low calorie, which could be a senior that's hardly eating anything or somebody who's anorexic. Those are the places, the only places.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. I mean, I just find it so asinine that we have 95% of this country, I'm going to come back to it and just harp on it, that's deficient in fiber and we have all these issues that are going on because of it. We have nobody that, for the most part, is deficient in fiber... I mean, I'm sorry, deficient in protein. Yet it's like we still, as you said earlier, we still have this health halo around protein. Almost all Americans think that the only way to get an adequate source of protein is from animals, a dead animal.
Vesanto Melina:
That's right.
Rip Esselstyn:
It's just like, it's crazy. Anyway, I'm going to get off this for a second, but let's change it into... What about complete verse, incomplete sources of protein? Because there's still this whole, I think, set of people that think that, okay, yeah, plants may have protein, but it certainly is not a complete source of protein. And if you're going to eat your beans, you better do it with rice so you get all nine of your essential amino acids.
Vesanto Melina:
That's Right. Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
What's your thinking on that?
Vesanto Melina:
The only protein that is actually incomplete, really doesn't have all the amino acids is gelatin that's made from animal bones. That's the only one. All the other, the plant proteins, they have every single amino acid, whether you're talking rice or beans or broccoli or whatever. But what we suggest is that the best choice in your whole diet is to get a mix of plant proteins so you want the grains. If you're trying to cut back a bit on weight, you can make that a little bit low.
The legumes are the real superstars of our plant protein, and the vegetables really have plenty. Even when I was working with these raw people, they'd have huge salads and lots of lettuce and different vegetables and so on, and that's a good source of protein. The nuts and seeds can be real powerhouses, from pistachios and all the different nuts and seeds. Every one of these foods delivers a whole lot more in terms of protective phytochemicals, vitamins, minerals, and so on. So the only one that's a little on the low side is the fruits, but of course, they deliver all the vitamins that are so protective and the potassium and so on.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, I thank you. I love telling people because I think it makes sense that all, and again, I want you to affirm what I'm saying here, and that is that all of the essential amino acids, the nine essential amino acids, the mother source of them is plants.
Vesanto Melina:
That's right. Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
So if animals have them, and they got them either directly or indirectly from the plants, just know that this is kind of the queen bee of the amino acids. It starts, and it kind of ends with plants. As we just rattled through, when you try and get them from animals, you're also subjecting yourself to, would you say an inferior source of protein or a problematic source of protein?
Vesanto Melina:
No, the meats have the amino acids too.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh, I know that. But what-?
Vesanto Melina:
They do have a lot of other junk with it.
Rip Esselstyn:
I agree, but I've also heard that the they're too high in the sulfuric containing amino acids.
Vesanto Melina:
Yeah. That's what the rats needed to grow their fur.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right, the methionine maybe?
Vesanto Melina:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right, but then turns into homocystine and promotes inflammation. So my point being, I tell people, listen, the thing about plant-based proteins is they're like the Goldilocks. It's like it's not too much. Not too much. It's like the perfect amount. So you're saying that there's some of the amino acids that are in meat that actually you said it, they're harsh on the kidneys and the liver, they promote inflammation, things of that nature. Right.
Vesanto Melina:
Now, we got on that funny track in the 1970s, and I was around, diet for a small planet. Francis Mor Lape said you got to eat the beans and the grains together, and then you'll get the whole... and that put us on the complimentary protein idea. Then 10 years later she said, "Oops, I made a big mistake. That was not true." But that didn't hit the headlines or sticking people's heads quite as much.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. No, it didn't, did it? All right. So just to sum all this up, plants, whether it's raspberries, whether it's steel cut oatmeal, whether it's honeydew melon, they contain all nine of the essential amino acids just in a different kind of proportion and combination, right?
Vesanto Melina:
Yeah, slightly different from one to the other. So we do suggest a mix in our food guides that are in Plant Powered Protein book. We have this is a good pattern to follow and it's related to national food guides. Particularly the Canadian one is really close to this pattern, and the American is moving in that direction. So we just show people you should eat a mix. And then you not only get the protein, you get all the amino acids, but you do get the vitamins, the minerals, the essential fats. We're looking for things like iodine and just get the whole pattern of what you need.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. One more question, and then I want to come to you, Cory and I want to talk a little bit about the environmental costs of our protein choices. But Vesanto, so many people, especially men, are worried about getting a complete protein, getting enough protein to basically create this muscle tissue. Correct?
Vesanto Melina:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
So you guys write about how there's branch chain amino acids, and then specifically how the leucine is a little shy in a lot of plant-based foods. And so that's the one essential amino acids that needs to be kind of, wee you need to up the ante. Is that correct?
Vesanto Melina:
Yeah, and with seniors too. I haven't been so worried about it with athletes because athletes eat so much food, they're going to get all that stuff anyway typically.
Rip Esselstyn:
Good point. Yeah.
Vesanto Melina:
But the seniors, which I think our next book will be plant-based seniors, but really we don't absorb quite as well. Our recommended intakes are officially not higher, although in Europe, they're upping them for seniors, the recommended intakes. But we really need to get enough protein. And one of the things that I've found good because I found soy was a really good one, is I have these little marinated tofu cubes that I eat. Have them in the fridge. I just marinate that a little bit, put it in the air fryer, and there's these little cubes. You can just grab them like you'd grab a few potato chips, except that it has the protein in it.
I think it's really important for seniors. Sometimes when I was trying to work out okay, how would this senior in a care facility or at home that doesn't eat very much, they're dentally challenged, all that kind of thing, how would they get enough protein? And so sometimes these branch chain amino acids and those supplements can help a bit when we're wanting to really boost muscle mass.
Rip Esselstyn:
And for the listener, when you say the branch chain amino acids, we're specifically talking about leucine, isoleucine and valine, correct?
Vesanto Melina:
That's right, and especially leucine. Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
What are our thoughts on supplementing with branch chain amino acids or leucine? Is there any data that supports that? Is that a [inaudible 00:47:20]?
Vesanto Melina:
There is. Yeah, there are limitations. We put very clear guidelines for the different types of people on dietary patterns and including for seniors. But I really did find it a challenge thinking about somebody who wasn't eating much, whether it's older. So I looked at the research very carefully. By the way, all of our research is on our website, Plant Powered Protein on a link called references, because we weren't allowed to have that many pages in our books. So we put it on the website. So they can look up everything exactly where you get this and that. And where's the reference about building muscle mass is as good on plant foods as it is on animal products.
Rip Esselstyn:
And I mean, again, the number of charts that you have that really paint out a really nice, clear picture of what's going on with plants, verse animals. I found this. So Cory, let's bring you into the fold here. Okay. I feel like I've left you out. So chapter seven is a planet in peril, right? Global protein. I want to read this first paragraph because I think it's really powerful.
You guys say, "The view of meat eating as a symbol of masculinity, status and strength is deeply embedded in our culture. Yet as the global population rises, this view becomes problematic because it's at odds with health, humanity and the sustainability of fragile ecosystems." And the crazy unfortunate thing is, as you guys talk about here, over the past century, half century, the per capita protein supply has increased from both animal and plant sources. And here you have a chart of all these different countries and how the amount of animal based protein has gone up significantly. The only one that hasn't is Zambia. But Cory, I would love for you to comment on a planet in peril and our insatiable quest for more and more and more protein.
Cory Davis:
That's right. I think it's ingrained in our culture this. There's a strong force, this inertia of masculinity being tied with meat because it's tied with barbecuing. Nothing more masculine than putting this big red piece of meat on the barbecue or going out and hunting, right? Hunting is really been tied to masculinity. So for the males who might be listening that they might have felt this right? That it's really strong, it's really difficult to break free from that culture or challenge that culture.
It's hard for me to challenge my friends. I bring tofu to the barbecue, and I'm kind of a bit of an outsider. I'm not part of that in group. I think the question is how are we going to market the masculinity also of going plant-based? Because I don't think that prostate cancer and those health issues tied with it are very masculine at all. Look at you, Rip. Look how healthy and fit you are and masculine you are. I mean, I think that is the way forward and that's
Rip Esselstyn:
Cory, thank you.I am dripping with masculinity, as are you.
Cory Davis:
Ts right. I'm six foot one. I'm around 200 pounds. I feel masculine. I feel full of testosterone, and I feeling active, so I don't feel like I'm lacking in that area. But I think one thing that we don't often tie to masculinity is the values for environmental sustainability, for humane treatment of animals, and if we want to sustain... Masculinity was often associated with longevity and being the protector. I think masculinity, the people who share that masculine culture need to take back that protector rule and protect the planet and be stewards of the animals as well.
Rip Esselstyn:
Bravo. Bravo. Great. I couldn't agree with you more. I love it. What about the environmental costs of our protein choices related to land use, water use, our carbon footprint? Speak to that, Cory.
Cory Davis:
Yeah, for sure. Well, there certainly is a trend. When you look at what are the biggest impact products versus the lowest impact products on all those categories of water pollution, land use, greenhouse gas emissions, you find a trend here where the highest polluters and the highest emitters and the highest users of land tend to be animal-based products. The lowest impact users, like products that use the least amount of water, pollute the least amount of water pollution, those tend to be plant-based products.
So just by tending to choose more plant products, being on more of a plant slant, reducing your intake of animal based products, you're almost certainly going to be minimizing your impact on the environment, which is more important than ever. And more in our face with the release of the IPCC report and trying to meet that target of not surpassing 1.5 degrees Celsius. The agricultural sector alone could force humanity past that 1.5 degree limit. So agriculture certainly has to be part of this discussion of climate change in particular, and water use.
Take water use, for example. A study came out fairly recently that surveyed water use for fresh water from rivers, specifically in the Western United States. They found, and this was quite shocking even for me, that animal feed crops, specifically for dairy cows and cattle, are driving fish endangerment and water shortages in the entire Western United States region. So they're by far one of the biggest users of water in that region. It's also slightly ironic because cattle farmers, quite sadly, have had to cull or kill their own herd in the face of drought.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, yeah. It's real. It's here. I can't think of a more powerful way for each and every one of us to be true stewards of the environment than to, as you just said, go on more of a plant slanting dietary pattern, and it can't happen fast enough. I've had some people on the podcast, Cory and Vesanto, who have said that according to the newest numbers, the amount of global greenhouse gas emissions that are caused from animal agriculture represent 81% of all of these global greenhouse gas emissions. Between the life cycle of these animals and between the supply chain, getting these animals to restaurants, grocery stores, warehouses, all that stuff, 81%. That's like crazy.
Cory Davis:
It's possible. I don't know if it's 81%. It's quite the challenging and complex topic because we're talking about opportunity costs. When we're using big numbers, like 81%, I believe Raol came out with a paper in 2020 or 2021, somewhere around there that postulated that if we were to rewild that swaths of area that we've cleared for agricultural purposes, perhaps we could say that the sequestration of that could lead us to a conclusion that animal agriculture in particular has quite a significant emission potential or greenhouse gas. So it's that opportunity cost. Are we rewilding land? I'm not sure if 81% is. I'm not sure about that figure.
Rip Esselstyn:
I'll send you the study.
Cory Davis:
Yeah, I've read the study. In particular, there is a paper that came out in Nature Sustainability, a very big journal, saying that we have been underestimating the opportunity cost of animal agriculture. That's something that definitely deserves more research. Now, at a minimum, and this is just at a minimum, animal agriculture is comparable to all the tailpipe emissions from planes, trains, and automobiles, and so-
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh, at a minimum.
Cory Davis:
At a minimum. That's not including any of the opportunity costs, which I think deserves quite a bit more research, but at a minimum. So with the same vigor and passion is we hear climate activists saying, ride your bike more, drive less, buy a hybrid, we should hear with that same passion, eat less meat and eat more legumes. Really.
Rip Esselstyn:
Really? You really should. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Solar, electric cars. Legumes. Legumes.
Cory Davis:
That's right.
Vesanto Melina:
I want to make a point here that people think about paleos. Well, those paleo people had twice the fiber intake of vegans. They ate a lot of plant foods. I think they were out finding whatever plant they could manage. Once in a while, they might have managed an animal, but it was not a meat-based diet in very, very many of the little paleo communities, it was plant-based.
Rip Esselstyn:
How much fiber do you think some of those paleo people were consuming?
Vesanto Melina:
That was like a hundred and more, and vegans are around 60 grams. We require 20, 25 grams. A lot of people are at 15. So the paleos were really big plant eaters, and they got a lot, so much calcium from plant foods. It was amazing how they did. Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
So you guys, you have I'm going to say five chapters about all the different stages of life and what the protein requirements are, starting with pregnancy and lactation. You have infants and toddlers, from birth to three, you've got children and teens, four to 18. You've got athletes, and then you've got the energetic elders is, I think you referred to them, Vesanto. Is there anything that you want to hit in any of those groups that you think deserves attention? But you've done a wonderful job in the book of talking about all the kind of that, what are the recommended amounts and how to achieve those.
Vesanto Melina:
I think we were just very careful to go through the different stages and specify where things can come from, what to emphasize. Say that soy milk is significantly higher in protein than rice milk. One gram of rice milk per cup, compared to six to eight grams in soy milk, and a lot of the non-dairy milks have more protein. The suppliers are starting to think about that more, because when you've got your little toddler that will barely eat anything, they run around all over the place and you wonder how they're getting fueled. You really want to be careful that what they take in is nutritious.
So we've just been very careful to be specific, but we find that the kids are actually doing better. Say there's studies about teenagers that are vegetarian, did better than the non-vegetarians. So they're not too concerned, and there have been big studies.
I wanted to say about Cory's and the environmental, just add something, the plant powered protein.com, there's a link for references, and Cory's references are wonderful. There's a whole big list of them that people can look at. He's even been adding a few recent ones because the references about environmental impacts are coming out. They're just quite a little flow of them. There didn't used to be any. Now there are increasing numbers of very well done studies.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wonderful. Thank you, Cory. Towards the end of your book, you have 10 ways for piling on the protein, and I'm going to throw out a couple of them, and then if you could just talk about them. So number one, you just actually referenced it, but I think it bears repeating, and that is you say use high protein plant-based milks, so soy versus rice, right?
Vesanto Melina:
Especially for little kids. If you like almond milk in your tea, great. But for little kids, we want to emphasize that.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, for example, if you just use... I'll just use my me for example. I have some Eden soy, right? It's got eight grams of protein per eight ounces. So I typically have probably 12 ounces on my cereal in the morning because it's a big bowl. And then I have probably six ounces in the evening a little snack after dinner with my cereal again. So just in my soy milk on my cereal, I've got 16 grams of fiber that I'm just knocked back, right? Super simple. You also say eat three or more servings of legumes a day.
Vesanto Melina:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
How many-?
Vesanto Melina:
Yeah, and that doesn't mean beans, beans, beans.
Rip Esselstyn:
What does it mean?
Vesanto Melina:
It means with your soy milk at breakfast, you nailed it. There also are soy yogurts and other foods like that. There's scrambled tofu. And then at lunch you could have say a lentil soup or something like that. My husband often has on his breakfast, peanut butter on toast. That's what he likes. It's so quick. Peanuts are a legume. They're in a pod. Legumes are things that are in pods.
We've got 20 kinds of legumes. So if people had a legume that they didn't like, their mom made a kind of soup when they were a kid they didn't like, well, there are a lot more from around the world, just wonderful tasting items.
Rip Esselstyn:
Nice. Then another tip that you have is make tofu and tempeh a regular part of your diet.
Vesanto Melina:
Right, and some people won't do that because they're allergic. But it's in the top eight to 10 allergens; along with dairy and wheat and eggs and fish and seafood and all that, soy. So some people are allergic, but it's a really good choice. It has very available protein, little fiber. It's just a terrific source and made with calcium. The soy foods, by the way, deliver iron whereas dairy products don't. They even block iron absorption to some extent.
Rip Esselstyn:
Good point. Just for people that are wigged out by soy specifically, a lot of the women that are concerned about the estrogens that are in that are soy, can you address that for a second?
Vesanto Melina:
Yeah. So we had these funny two studies that were done ages ago on two guys that one ate 12 servings of soy a day and one ate 20. I don't know how they managed it, if they got it for free from the company or what. But anyway, they developed breasts at the ends of the year, very slight breasts, went to their doctors. They were in completely different locations. One was 19, one was 60.
That led to the rumors of soy causing problems for men. 20 servings a day will cause problems, seriously, or 12, but it reversed after a while. They stopped doing that silly thing. Now we're suggesting one or two or three, even that much servings a day is fine. But the isoflavones in soy are not the same as estrogen. They actually are an advantage. They can block our estrogen absorption. So some of the understandings about soy, and we were questioning all this stuff. Scientists look at things very carefully, but we find that it actually can lower your risk of breast cancer by having soy foods, and it can lower your risk of recurrence of prostate cancer to have soy foods. So they're an advantage.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. I've had Christina Funk, Dr. Christina Funk on the podcast. She's a breast surgeon here in the States, and she just cannot be more of an advocate for soy products for women that are concerned about breast cancer, have had breast cancer, and to not steer away from it because of those protective elements you talked about. Another one of your tips is to add these veggie meats, I guess because they're full of the isolates and the concentrates and they're high in protein.
Vesanto Melina:
People can add those. I went to a natural foods expo on Sunday too, and there were so many of them. It was amazing. So all these little companies starting to produce different things so they can work for some people.
Rip Esselstyn:
And you also like people to throw on some seeds so give me an example. How would I throw seeds into my life?
Vesanto Melina:
Well, we keep a jar on the counter. We say not sense seeds, but we've got cashews on the counter because my husband loves that. In our muesli or granola, we have nuts and seeds, and seeds are even slightly higher in protein than nuts. And they also deliver zinc, which is really important. We had actually a joke in our first book because sperm contains zinc. So we said that these really lusty guys should keep a jar of cashews by the bed. That was our joke.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Nice. Cory, let's do that.
Cory Davis:
[inaudible 01:07:44]
Rip Esselstyn:
When you say feature tree nuts in your diet, do you have a recommended amount? Because as you talk about early in the book, one of your beefs with beef is that yes, it's got protein, but it's got more fat than it does protein, essentially?
Vesanto Melina:
The meats that we think of as protein foods often have more fat than protein. They don't have any carbs, but they have at least 50, even higher amounts of fat, calories from fat, than of protein. So we could call them fat foods instead of protein foods.
Rip Esselstyn:
But wouldn't you say that's also true of nuts? I'm not saying nuts are a bad thing, but if people think that, oh, you want to get more protein, eat nuts, and now they're eating four or five ounces a day, and that's a thousand calories and 80% of those are coming from fat.
Vesanto Melina:
Yeah. We don't recommend that people go overboard on any particular food group. The nuts and seeds and the things like pumpkin seeds, hemp seeds, sunflower seeds, they're high in zinc, in iron, as well as protein. But it's like a little snack. It's something you might keep in your vehicle to grab some on the way when you're going somewhere. I put hemp seeds in my smoothie, this kind of thing, but you don't need huge amounts of them. They also deliver the essential fats, the hemp seeds, flax seeds, chia seeds, walnuts. They deliver some really good fats.
Rip Esselstyn:
I think seeds, though, in my opinion, are different than nuts. I don't think people have a tendency to overdo seeds like chia seeds or hemp seeds.
Vesanto Melina:
Yeah, that's true.
Rip Esselstyn:
Usually you put a tablespoon, maybe a tablespoon and a half on your cereal and your salad, in your dressing or whatever, and then you call it good. Nuts, on the other hand, I just want to come back to nuts. I think people have a tendency to overdo the nuts, especially when you go to Costco and you get a big drum of pistachios or cashews or almonds, and they're roasted and they're salted, and you just can't get enough so-
Vesanto Melina:
Yeah, you can't eat huge amounts of salted peanuts or any of those high fat foods. It's wiser, the legumes are brilliant. They're really low fat, typically like 3% calories from fat.
Rip Esselstyn:
Do you have a recommendation on the amount of nuts that people should eat a day?
Vesanto Melina:
We suggest one to two servings a day, a couple of tablespoons. I always put in my smoothies in the morning. I have a smoothie that's kale and orange juice and banana and hemp seeds, sometimes oranges. I put about three tablespoons of hemp seeds because it delivers some good omega-3s and some protein. They're as high in protein, present calories as many of the animal products, the hemp seeds. So that's a good amount, up to three tablespoons.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, you have a chart in this book that has all the different protein values of, it must be a hundred different foods. Do you know off the top of your head what percent protein for hemp seeds?
Vesanto Melina:
I think it's about 29, but I don't remember all that. But we used the USD-
Rip Esselstyn:
21. It's 21.
Vesanto Melina:
21?
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, 21. Yeah. Yeah. For example, walnuts, right? I mean, walnuts are 14%. Black walnuts are 14% protein, but they're 80% fat. So again, I'm coming back and I'm harping on this people, that we've got to be intelligent about what we are piling on, because we may think that, oh, this is a great source of protein, but it's also a even more wonderful source of fat.
Vesanto Melina:
Yeah, that's right. We put menus in that book, and I work out the menus really carefully to make sure they've got enough magnesium and zinc and the different nutrients we need. Because if you go way, way overboard on one food, then you'll run into trouble. You can't fit into the calories, and you get short of some other nutrients, so we work them out. The food guides and the menus are worked out that way.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, and your menus look phenomenal. You have 30 recipes. This is, oh, this is your Gado- Gado bowl on page 169. Can you see that?
Vesanto Melina:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
That is gorgeous. Who did the recipes for this?
Vesanto Melina:
Well, we did them. We all tested all of them, but we have a little team of testers, and they're based in British Columbia and in San Francisco and they're really, really careful. Some of them are gourmets, and some of them are real simple. I'm on the simple guidelines and Brenda and Cory are more gourmet chefs. So we end up getting a recipe that is pretty simple to make, but it can look beautiful and we have suggestions for different options. But our testers went over everything and they said, no, they can't do it that way, and they'd give us feedback.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, and then look at this. On page 147, you have this tangy chickpeas smash.
Vesanto Melina:
Oh, yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
And the photography is brilliant. Cory, did you also do the photography on that?
Cory Davis:
No, I did not but, boy, does that look delicious. That one in particular is one of my favorites.
Rip Esselstyn:
I mean, that is something that I could have for lunch. Then look at this peanut edamame noodle salad right here. Then you also have a nice chart, Vesanto, on the left. This is 34 grams of protein per two cups. I could throw back probably three or four cups of this.
Vesanto Melina:
Well, you no wonder you're so strong.
Rip Esselstyn:
You're too kind. I need to have you on next week as well. Then look at this, you even have some desserts.
Vesanto Melina:
Oh, I know.
Rip Esselstyn:
These carrot spice cookies.
Vesanto Melina:
No, that's the chocolate ones. They got beans in them.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh. Absolutely brilliant. Wow.
Vesanto Melina:
Yeah. Yeah, and they're good. I keep them in the freezer, and when I get a chocolate emergency, I go and take one out.
Rip Esselstyn:
Those look insane. Well, you guys, this book just was released to the universe, what, about a week ago?
Vesanto Melina:
This week? Yeah. In the-
Rip Esselstyn:
This week. Wow. What was your labor of love? How much time did you guys spend writing this?
Vesanto Melina:
Oh, we send the stuff back and forth a lot so it takes us a while. I'm sure it's not quite a year to write something, and we rip each other's stuff to shreds mercilessly, and say no. And then we had to make it simple. We had guidelines this time. We had to make it for grade eight or 10 level, because we also, we're read by doctors and dieticians and people all over the world, other cultures. But we're also read by people who just want it quick and simple, and that's a real craft.
So between us, you can tell that Cory's quite sophisticated in his use of language, and he really understands the science very deeply. And I'm kind of a Johnny Cash thinker. I like one syllable words and real simple. So between us, we really come out with something that works.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, Cory, you do kind of have this sophisticated air, and that turtleneck really seals the deal.
Cory Davis:
Hey, thanks. I'll take it. I'll take it as a compliment.
Rip Esselstyn:
Absolutely. It was delivered as one. Well, you guys, I want to thank you so much for spending time, really definitively letting people know where does that protein come from? Are we going to get going to get enough? Is it complete? You guys have done a bang up job. I highly recommend people pick up a copy. Plant Powered Protein, Nutrition Essentials and Dietary Guidelines For All Ages. Brenda Davis, Vesanto Melina, and Cory Davis. You guys, way to go.
Cory Davis:
Thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh, yeah. So before we go, hit me up with a little Plantstrong fist bump. Boom, and what's next for you guys? What's next?
Vesanto Melina:
Well, they're all coming to Vancouver for the Plant Powered Expo. I'm actually speaking in Philadelphia, New Jersey, New York, and Sao Paulo, Brazil.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow. Is that just in the next couple of weeks?
Vesanto Melina:
No, that'll be in September. Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh, in September. Got it.
Vesanto Melina:
Yeah. Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Great. How about you, Cory, Mr. Agrologist?
Cory Davis:
All right. Well, yes, I'll be looking to do more events like The Planted Expo and more podcasts like this. I have a lot to say and can't wait to share what I've learned with the world.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Yeah. Thank you.
Cory Davis:
I work a full-time job, but always looking for side gigs and any way to spread the word.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wonderful. Well, Vesanto and Cory, please tell Brenda Davis that I say hi.
Vesanto Melina:
We will. Yeah. Yeah.
Cory Davis:
You bet we will.
Rip Esselstyn:
All right, you guys. All right, have a great one. We'll see you next time.
Vesanto Melina:
Thank you. Yeah. Okay. Bye.
Rip Esselstyn:
Bye. Plant Powered Protein is available now, and I'll be sure to put a link to it in today's show notes. It's definitely a book that you want to have on hand the next time. And there will be a next time someone happens to ask you where do you get your protein? Thanks for joining today. I'll see you next week and in the meantime, keep it Plantstrong.
Thank you for listening to the Plantstrong podcast. You can support the show by taking a quick minute to follow us wherever you listen to your favorite podcast. Leaving us a positive review and sharing the show with your network is another great way to help us reach as many people as possible with the exciting news about plants. Thank you in advance for your support. It means everything.
The Plantstrong podcast team includes Carrie Barrett, Laurie Kortowich, Ami Mackey, Patrick Gavin, and Wade Clark. This season is dedicated to all of those courageous true seekers who weren't afraid to look through the lens with clear vision and hold firm to a higher truth. Most notably, my parents, Dr. Caldwell B Esselstyn, Jr. and Anne Crile Esselstyn. Thanks for listening.
