#84: Raising Plant-Based Babies and Toddlers with The Plant-Based Juniors
Photo Credit: Lani Ohye
We keep the Mother’s Day celebration going with two of the up-and-coming broc-stars, The Plant-Based Juniors, Whitney English and Alexandra Caspero. Together, these two have created a robust community and a haven of support for raising healthy plant-strong babies and toddlers.
In fact, their new book, The Plant-Based Baby and Toddler is coming out on May 18th, 2021 and it is the topic of much of the discussion in today’s episode. The PBJs are packed with knowledge, research, and enthusiasm for providing such accurate and evidence-based information because, as we know, there is just so much misinformation out there. They cut through the noise with a refreshing and welcoming vibe that we love here at PlantStrong.
Both Alex and Whitney are Registered Dietitians, Certified Personal Trainers, and Moms to toddlers, so they are, of course, personally invested in the health of not just your children, but theirs as well. Even if you’re not a parent, we encourage you to share this episode with those who are. They are a wonderful source for encouragement and affirmation that shines a light on the fact that raising plant-based babies and toddlers is not only safe, but it’s also health-promoting.
We cover so many issues that new parents face, especially the many fears and misconceptions of raising plant-strong babies. We also talk about how to have productive conversations with your children and with the naysayers who express their concerns about your parenting choices. We dive into soy, gluten, the whole grain paradox...and making sure your child gets plenty of Vitamin P. What in the world is Vitamin P? You’ll find out and, believe us, you don’t want to live without it.
Episode and PLANTSTRONG Resources:
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Links to episode music:
Alex and Whitney, The Plant-Based Juniors are Registered Dietitian Nutritionists, Certified Personal Trainers, and parents to plant-based babes. They started their community as a resource for families who want to raise their kids in a predominantly plant-based way, and feel confident about the many decisions that come with nourishing children.
We know how confusing it all can be, so PBJ does the research for you. They rely on evidence-based nutrition advice, so you know that the recommendations are based on research, not dogma. PBJ wants to empower you to make the best nutrition decisions for your family and provide you with plenty of delicious recipes and meal guides to do so.
Their new book, The Plant-Based Baby and Toddler will be released on May 18, 2021. This one-of-a-kind guide teaches parents how to fill babies’ and toddlers’ plates with foods to support optimal nutrition right from the start.
Full Transcript
Plant-Based Juniors:
Yeah, it's really scary what's going on with children's health right now. In the past 30 years, we've seen obesity and overweight skyrocket in our youngest demographic. So, we're talking about kids under the age of five. We've seen a 60% increase in obesity in this age group, with about 14% of preschoolers now being classified as obese. And as we all know, overweight and obesity in early childhood leads to an increased risk of those same conditions in adulthood, which then leads to an increased risk of other chronic diseases like heart disease, and cancer and diabetes.
Rip Esselstyn:
Season three of the PLANTSTRONG Podcast explores those Galileo moments where you seek to understand the real truth around your health and dare to see the world through a different lens. This season, we honor those courageous seekers who are paving the way for you and me. So grab your telescope, point it towards your future, and let's get PLANTSTRONG together.
Rip Esselstyn:
Welcome to the PLANTSTRONG Podcast. I'm Rip Esselstyn, your host, and I hope that you all had a fabulous Mother's Day. I spoke with my fabulous mother a few hours ago, and she's just so amazing. Throughout my life, she has empowered me to chase after my dreams and to not let anybody try and steal those from me. I so, so appreciate her and her attitude about life in general. In our house today, we had a wonderful day celebrating my wife, Jill, who really keeps our family ship heading in the right direction. I hope that you all were able to celebrate the women in your lives who make such a daily positive impact as well.
Rip Esselstyn:
This week, I want to keep the celebration going with two of the up and coming rock stars, the Plant-Based Juniors, Whitney English and Alex Caspero. Together, these two have created a robust community and a haven of support for raising healthy plant-strong babies and toddlers. In fact, their new book, The Plant-Based Baby and Toddler is coming out May 18, and you can preorder today. This book is the topic of the majority of our discussion today. I was really bowled over by their knowledge, the seminal research they have in this book, and their enthusiasm for providing such accurate and evidence-based information because, as you all know, there is just so much misinformation out there. So, we cut through much of the noise today.
Rip Esselstyn:
A little bit about Alex and Whitney, they're both registered dieticians, certified personal trainers and moms to toddlers. So, they are of course very personally invested in the health of not just your children, but theirs as well. Now, even if you're not a parent, I would encourage you to share this episode with those who are. They're a wonderful source for encouragement and affirmation that shines a light on the fact that raising plant-based babies and toddlers is not only safe, but it's also health promoting.
Rip Esselstyn:
We cover a really wide variety of issues that new parents face, especially the many fears and misconceptions of raising plant-strong babies. We also talk about how to have productive conversations with your children and with the naysayers who expressed their concerns about your parenting choices. We dive into soy, gluten, the whole grain paradox. Say, what? And making sure your child gets plenty of vitamin P. What in the world is vitamin P? You'll find out right now. So, let's get after it. Please welcome Alex and Whitney, the Plant-Based Juniors.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay, here we are the PLANTSTRONG Podcast. I am here with Alexandra Caspero. Am I pronouncing that correct?
Plant-Based Juniors:
That's it. Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Alexandra Caspero and Whitney English. You guys have really done something remarkable, and you're so PLANTSTRONG Podcast worthy. You guys have another baby that's coming out in a couple weeks. It's something you've been working on, I'm sure, for at least two years, I would imagine.
Plant-Based Juniors:
Yes, yes.
Rip Esselstyn:
You guys have so much to be proud of, and I want to talk about it. We're talking about a book that these two just wrote. It's called the Plant-Based Baby and Toddler. I feel like this shirt should say Baby Kale, not Kale. Much more appropriate.
Plant-Based Juniors:
Kale smoothie. Kale smoothie pops.
Rip Esselstyn:
Kale smoothie pops. I love it.
Plant-Based Juniors:
Talking about ways to get it in for the kids.
Plant-Based Juniors:
That's right.
Rip Esselstyn:
That's incredible. I can't believe that your mothers ... I mean, it's funny. As I get older, I like at you guys and you look so incredibly young and vibrant and just all the vitality. If you don't mind me asking, how old are you guys?
Plant-Based Juniors:
I'm 36. I will be in four days.
Plant-Based Juniors:
And I'll be 36 about a month later.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow. Wow. Great ages. Obviously, if you guys wrote a book about babies and toddlers, you probably have them yourself.
Plant-Based Juniors:
Yeah, we're living it right now. My son is going to be three this month and my daughter, Ella, is six months so she just started eating three days ago. We are knee-deep in starting solids right now and baby-led weaning. Alex's kids are about the same age.
Plant-Based Juniors:
Yeah. My son is three and a half and my daughter is one.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow, you guys ... Okay, that's almost identical. So, I'd love to hear about both of your journeys to a plant-based diet. Let me just start with Alex. You used to date a protein-obsessed meathead.
Plant-Based Juniors:
I did it. A long, long time ago.
Rip Esselstyn:
How did you get to where you are today, and who is this wonderful husband that maybe isn't so much of a meathead?
Plant-Based Juniors:
Well, it's a funny story because I say this a lot and people are like, how does this even make sense? But it was just this catalyst of I was dating this bodybuilder, very, very obsessed with protein. I mean, he used to wake up in the middle of the night and eat like cans of tuna. Just gross. But anyways, we broke up like many college relationships do. I was never a big meat fan. I was studying nutrition at the time, so I was learning a lot more, of course, the benefits of plant-based diets. We had this breakup, and I was just like, "You know what, I am grossed out by the idea of meat." That was in 2006, and I haven't eaten it since. So, I thank him wherever he is now for that relationship because that has obviously paid a much healthier path for me.
Plant-Based Juniors:
Ironically, my husband, his parents are all dairy farmers. When they met me, it was like, "Who is this girl? What are you talking about? She doesn't eat all these things?" We've been together now for I think 14 or 15 years and he slowly is a plant-predominant eater. It's really come full circle that not only did I have that catalyst with my old boyfriend, but now I have really sort of changed not only him, but his family is way more into this.
Plant-Based Juniors:
They were just visiting last weekend and I bought probably like 20 different plant-based ice creams and had them do a taste test. We did all these, enjoying these treats that were completely free of dairy and they all were like, "Wow, these are so good." It's just nice to show people that even just traditionally didn't eat this way how delicious these foods can be.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, absolutely. And Whitney, you took a graduate nutrition program with the infamous Dr. Valter Longo.
Plant-Based Juniors:
Right.
Rip Esselstyn:
Was that the thing that really pushed you over the edge?
Plant-Based Juniors:
Yeah, it was. I got my start in entertainment journalism. I moved out to Los Angeles right after college to work at E! News and spent a good part of my early career interviewing celebrities about everything from the baby food diet to eating massive amounts of animal protein to look good for movie roles. It was really-
Rip Esselstyn:
Is it baby food diet for babies or for everybody?
Plant-Based Juniors:
No. That's for adults.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay.
Plant-Based Juniors:
There are some adults that are eating baby food.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay.
Plant-Based Juniors:
It's crazy, yeah. So, it was all of these myths in Hollywood about nutrition that really triggered both my personal interest in nutrition and fitness and then also my impulse as a truth-seeking reporter to get down to the bottom of all of this. I realized that if I really wanted to understand nutrition and be able to translate it appropriately, then I needed to go back to school and become an expert myself. And so, I left the world of entertainment and went back to get a master's degree in nutrition, healthspan and longevity at the University of Southern California. Even when I started the program, I was still a protein-obsessed fitness junkie. I used to eat six egg whites a day for breakfast religiously.
Rip Esselstyn:
Like Rocky Balboa.
Plant-Based Juniors:
Yeah. For many years, I was afraid of fat, I thought I needed massive amounts of animal protein. It was when I took a course in Italy, halfway through my program with Dr. Valter Longo, when my eyes were opened to the benefits of a plant-based diet. In a short, I think it was a an abbreviated course, in a short month-long period, I went from this person who was eating chicken breast and egg whites every single day to completely cutting animal protein out of my diet and jumping on the plant-based bandwagon after learning the massive amounts of research supporting the chronic disease prevention benefits, longevity benefits.
Plant-Based Juniors:
I was pretty shocked, actually, that this was not mainstream information. Even in my dietetic program, it was only about a year in when I really understood the breadth of the research and was able to apply it in my own life. But, yeah, I can't say enough great things about Valter. He's my guru. He changed my life.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Yeah. So, how did you two come together to write the book? How long have you guys known each other?
Plant-Based Juniors:
Whitney and I have known each other for about a decade now. We met at a blogging conference and just stayed friends, kept in touch. We both have sons around the same age, so we're both pregnant following this diet. We were just reaching out to each other and saying things like, "Hey, have you read about this study?" or "What do you think about this?" or "I'm having trouble finding answers. What do you think?" We just felt like, oh my gosh, we're having all of these questions around these topics. We flick there's not a lot of evidence-based places to go for them. I love my midwives and my pediatrician, but they weren't resources in plant-based nutrition and we just felt like we've got to do this. We've got to come together and put our knowledge out there and help other parents who were in a similar boat.
Plant-Based Juniors:
Yeah. At the time that I was pregnant and Alex had her, I think he was three months at the time when we started talking over DMs on Instagram, there was not one nutrition book catering to this demographic that was written in the past decade by a registered dietician, guiding people on a plant-based pregnancy or raising young children from that really critical zero to two age group.
Plant-Based Juniors:
We were just shocked because we knew of all the dietitians out there that were doing this, it's a smaller tight knit community, but this information wasn't really mainstream. The people that you were really hearing about on social media or that were blogging, where a lot of mommy bloggers were doing this with their families, but nothing that really had that evidence-based information all in one place to really reach a more mainstream audience. And so, we felt like if we were having such a hard time answering some of these questions and finding a go-to one-stop shop, imagine what a lay person, a common mom out there who's got enough on her hands with a new baby definitely doesn't have enough time to dig into the literature to get answers.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Well, to me, I like to say that his is a plant-strong era that we're in right now and everything is moving towards more plants for every reason imaginable, right? The environment, sustainability, animal compassion, our personal health, all that stuff. You're right. I mean, I think that you guys have written really the definitive guidebook for the next generation or two of mothers with babies that want to make sure that they're doing the right thing with their babies, the plant-based diet. Just by following your step-by-step guidebook that you've outlined, these mothers and fathers can rest assure that their children are going to get everything they need and everything they don't need, and it's all centered around a predominantly plant based diet as you guys have outlined.
Rip Esselstyn:
So, tell me this. Before I dive into some specific questions, would one of you give us a broad 10,000-foot view of what's going on right now with children's health in general and why is this so important and so timely?
Plant-Based Juniors:
It's really scary what's going on with children's health right now. In the past 30 years, we've seen obesity and overweight skyrocket in our youngest demographic. So, we're talking about kids under the age of five. We've seen a 60% increase in obesity in this age group with about 14% of preschoolers now being classified as obese. As we all know, overweight and obesity in early childhood leads to an increased risk of those same conditions in adulthood, which then leads to an increased risk of other chronic diseases like heart disease, and cancer and diabetes.
Plant-Based Juniors:
Speaking of diabetes, we're also seeing an increase in these lifestyle conditions in young children, which we previously believed were only happening later in life, were lifestyle conditions. But we're seeing diabetes, for example, has had a 30% increase in the past 20 years. Now, children as young as 10 years old are being diagnosed with this really, really detrimental disease. It just says that there's something really, really wrong with the standard American diet, with the way that most people are feeding their children.
Plant-Based Juniors:
Yeah. I think it's funny sometimes. We always get questioned, how can you feed your kids this way or why are you doing this? We're like, wait, why are we playing defense? It's not the standard American diet, or the way that kids are being raised right now, is this benchmark for health. There are so many issues with just these high amounts of processed foods and, of course, getting so much protein and fat from animal-based foods and really not eating enough of the plant foods. It's not like we're comparing apples to oranges. We know there's a plethora of research that's really around a plant-centered diet or a strict plant-based diet, so we feel very confident in our approach here. But sometimes, I think it's funny that we have to be defensive about our choices when the alternative isn't really great.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Talking about that, the research for a plant-based diet for children has been vetted and endorsed by some very prominent organizations. Do you guys want to talk about a few of those?
Plant-Based Juniors:
Yeah. I think that's the overarching thing, right? All of the major nutrition organization, whether we're talking about the American Academy of Pediatrics, whether we're talking about the ... why am I blanking on-
Plant-Based Juniors:
Canadian Pediatric Society.
Plant-Based Juniors:
Yeah. The American Nutrition Dietetics Association. I mean, there's so many governing bodies that say that an appropriately planned plant-based diet or vegetarian diet, a vegan diet, is not only safe, not only appropriate but it's also likely health promoting. And that's true for all areas of life cycle, right? Whether we're talking about pregnancy, whether we're talking about lactation, whether we're talking about infancy, early childhood, obviously into adulthood. It really is every single person. As long as it's appropriately planned, and that's true for all diets, these are safe and, like I said, likely health promoting.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. What would you guys, and you addressed this in the book and so I'm going to lob ball it out there to you guys, what are some of the major fears and misconceptions that a lot of parents have right now around a plant-based diet?
Plant-Based Juniors:
Oh, just so many.
Plant-Based Juniors:
I know. I think the biggest ones is-
Rip Esselstyn:
So why would vegan as the more plant base be dangerous for children?
Plant-Based Juniors:
Yeah, yeah. I think a lot of people feel like if they take away certain foods or food groups, that they're going to be missing something. I truly believe that all parents want what's best for their children. A lot of times, the information that they're given is really misinformed. For example, they think that, "Oh, chicken is a good source of protein so I'm going to give it to my child because I know that he needs protein," or hotdogs are a good source of protein. That's sort of a healthy food. We know these things aren't necessarily true, but I think sometimes we see things in these macronutrient. We feel like, oh, they're not going to get hotdogs and chicken nuggets, where are they going to get their protein from? Obviously, when we explain the abundance of protein in a plant-based diet, it helps to remedy that.
Plant-Based Juniors:
Cow's milk is the same way. So many of us are conditioned, because of all the dairy campaigns especially in the 80s and 90s, that milk is calcium, and when you take away milk, people think, "Well, how is my child going to get calcium? He needs calcium." Of course, he needs calcium. But we can also get these nutrients in other plant-based foods.
Plant-Based Juniors:
And so, we like to say that we fight all of this fear with facts. We come armed to the table and say, "Here's what the research says. I understand. I'm a parent too. I obviously don't want to do any harm to my children. I want to make sure what I'm doing is best for them." And so, if we come into the table and say, "Here's everything that we know about nutrition. Here's what we know that the research says," I think that's really empowering for parents to say, okay, now I feel confident talking to my in-laws or pediatrician or partner, whoever they need to, to sort of help assuage some of these common myths.
Plant-Based Juniors:
There's just so many sources of misinformation these days, whether we're talking about uncredentialled so-called experts on social media or whether we're talking about the mainstream media, even kids on pediatricians. And then also, to add to all of these noise, really the food boards.
Plant-Based Juniors:
One thing that we're seeing a lot right now is, for example, Big Beef has a campaign right now to educate parents and professionals on the importance of beef as a first food for babies. They really use this fear to play upon parents' concerns by saying that kids aren't going to get enough protein without beef, kids are not going to get enough iron without beef. They fall back on their research, or at least the part of the research that they are going to present, the cherry-picked research.
Plant-Based Juniors:
For example, the USDA recently released for the first time ever their dietary guidelines for Americans covering that zero to two age range, and the beef industry came out stating that even the USDA recommends beef as a first food. But if you really dig into the literature and look at these guidelines, they aren't specifically saying that beef is an ideal or necessary first food. They listed among first foods that are rich in iron, but they also list iron-fortified cereal. They also say that any source of iron in the diet, as long as it's in an appropriate amount, can easily meet children's iron needs and raise blood serum levels of iron. They specifically state that there's no added benefit to serving beef over other sources of iron.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Speaking of iron, I think it was you, Alex. You went in to see your pediatrician with your eight-month-old, I think it was your son. Is that right? Or was it Whitney?
Plant-Based Juniors:
It was Whitney's son. But, I mean, it's a common thought.
Rip Esselstyn:
Basically, from what I read, you were like, "I can't believe it, he's low in iron." And your pediatrician looked at you and gave you the raised eyebrow like, "Yeah, it's because you're eating this way," right? And then he-
Plant-Based Juniors:
Yeah, he was just pitching me one fastball after another saying why my son's iron was probably low and how it was due to my plant-based diet.
Rip Esselstyn:
And then, what were his recommendations?
Plant-Based Juniors:
His recommendations, the first thing he said was, "Can you add some animal foods? Can you at least give him an egg?" Luckily, I had done my homework and I said, "Yeah, an egg isn't, I guess, okay source of iron. It has 1 milligram. Kids need 11 milligrams per day at that age." But the problem with that, which obviously he didn't know without having a nutritional background, was that eggs also contain a compound called phosvitin, which inhibits iron absorption and can even inhibit iron absorption from other foods in the meal.
Plant-Based Juniors:
He also said, "You better go get your iron levels checked because you're probably anemic as well." Now, that one really just floored me because I think one of the most basic things that anyone who does children's nutrition knows is that breast milk is a very, very poor source of iron. It has 0.03 mg per liter. It's a tiny, tiny amount and that's really because babies build up iron stores in utero and they have enough to last them the first six months of life, and then from six months on, that's when we want them getting iron in their diet. It was just one fallacy after another. It made me not only angry but a little concerned. I'm like, you're getting all these things wrong. I might need to find another pediatrician.
Rip Esselstyn:
And have you?
Plant-Based Juniors:
I haven't because he's great on so many other accounts. Actually, we're moving too so that's going to solve itself, but-
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, you need to get...
Plant-Based Juniors:
... I hope he doesn't read my book because I really don't want him to know that I called him out.
Rip Esselstyn:
Tell me about the PB3 plate and give me examples. I think that's really adorable. The PB3.
Plant-Based Juniors:
Yeah. It's meal planning guide. We want to make this as easy for parents as possible. Like Whitney and I said, we're both busy moms. We don't have a lot of time to do all of this fancy meal prep and trying to figure things out, and what foods my kid needs when. So, we wanted to make this really fun visual that you could hang on your fridge. In the back of the book, we have a page that you can literally tear out and hang somewhere so you just have this nice visual.
Plant-Based Juniors:
Essentially, it's divided into three categories. It has legumes, nuts and seeds; grains and starches; and then fruits and vegetables. Again, obviously, because plant foods are such rich sources of so many macronutrients, we're not calling out specific. We're not saying here's the protein group because beans contain protein, and they also contain carbohydrate. So, instead, we're telling where to find these foods in the diet. And if you do that, then the macronutrients really take care of themselves.
Plant-Based Juniors:
We also have specific call outs for certain nutrients that are really important for us especially this older infant, younger toddler area. So, we have a specific call out for iron, we have a call out for fat. Especially compared to older adult recommendations, kids eat a lot of fat, about 35 to 40% calories from fat. Plant foods are so wonderful because they're naturally lower in fat, or many of them are, but just really emphasizing to parents to we want to ensure that our kids are getting enough of their calories from fat for optimal growth.
Rip Esselstyn:
What ages is that? What would you say?
Plant-Based Juniors:
35 to 40% is about age two.
Plant-Based Juniors:
And then after that, it dropped down-
Plant-Based Juniors:
One to three. One to three, actually.
Plant-Based Juniors:
And then it drops down to about 30%. We still want to focus on it, but it's not as critical as it is in those early years. And then we talked about certain nutrients.
Rip Esselstyn:
[crosstalk 00:26:01].
Plant-Based Juniors:
Oh, sorry. I can talk about the PB3 plate all day.
Rip Esselstyn:
No, no, no, no. Give me example, and you guys have this in the book, but it wasn't in my PDF. What is the macronutrient breakdown of mother's breast milk when it comes to fat, protein and carbs.
Plant-Based Juniors:
Breastmilk's got about 40 to 50% of calories coming from fat. That's one good thing then for parents that are like, "Oh no, how am I going to get all this fat in my kid's diet?" Well, at least in the first two years or so when you're providing breast milk or formula or some plant-based milk alternative, they'll be getting a very large portion of their fat from specifically those beverages in addition to the foods you're providing in the diet. Protein? What is the percentage? I think it's about 2 grams of protein per-
Rip Esselstyn:
It's like 4.55%. It's pretty low.
Plant-Based Juniors:
Yeah, it's 2 grams per about four ounces of breast milk, I believe, which is a lot lower actually than cow's milk and a lot lower than, actually, the plant-based milk alternatives that we recommend for older kids, which is pea and soy and soy milk.
Plant-Based Juniors:
It's interesting that a lot of these milk alternatives weren't developed to mimic breast milk more closely. They are more developed to mimic cow's milk because cow's milk is the standard beverage of choice for most children too. Numerous factors which we also get into the book. We have an entire section on how children, really, came to be recommended in drinking multiple glasses of cow's milk a day.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, three glasses a day, right?
Plant-Based Juniors:
Yeah. I think some pediatricians are recommending less now as more and more research comes out tying high milk intake with things like obesity. People are starting to modify their recommendations, but it is still at least two glasses a day.
Plant-Based Juniors:
And iron. I mean, iron deficiency anemia is the most common deficiency when we're talking about kids, and that's regardless of diet. But cow's milk is usually the biggest driver of that because cow's milk competes for absorption with iron. If we're constantly giving our kids two, three cups of cow's milk per day, which is what the dairy board recommends, then you're likely going to end up with an anemic child who's going to have a lot of other health conditions down the road. So, we definitely recommend choosing more plant-based options for those beverages. But also, regardless of what you're doing, limiting it to about two cups max per day.
Sophie Esselstyn:
Hello, I'm Sophie Esselstyn, and my dad is Rip. We'll be right back with Alex and Whitney, but right now I want to share a few fun updates with you.
Sophie Esselstyn:
First, PLANTSTRONG is just about ready to unveil some incredible new food products available exclusively on their website at plantstrongfoods.com. If you'd like to be the first to know when they are available, head to the site and subscribe for early access and exclusive discounts. In a couple of weeks, they'll have some big announcements to share, and many more months ahead.
Sophie Esselstyn:
In other news, our Spring Harvest PLANTSTRONG Culinary Experiences will begin to ship next week from our friends at The Chef's Garden. My dad flew to Cleveland a few months ago to visit my grandmother Ann, and together, they spent a day with Chef Jamie to learn to cook a whole new four-course meal, according to my dad, and was such a fun addition to the film ship. As you know, she is full of curiosity and enthusiasm for everything, and they had a blast learning about Mr. Fry's rhubarb and spring pea tendrils and ice spinach. To learn more, visit plantstrong.com/garden and reserve your box today. They'll pick up and pack your order, and we will send you a library of videos to enjoy as you make this fun meal together.
Sophie Esselstyn:
Finally, I want to mention my dad's PLANTSTRONG 14-day free meal planner trial that has been wildly popular especially with busy families with young children. If you haven't heard, the PLANTSTRONG meal planner is a powerful tool. It makes it easy to plan, shop and prepare PLANTSTRONG meals that are delicious and family friendly. Try it yourself. Use the code start fresh at mealplanner.plantstrong.com. Take the next two weeks and cook up storm for your family. Now, let's get back to these two.
Plant-Based Juniors:
The biggest thing that we want to focus on is setting parents up and their four children up for success. We've all heard these stories about, perhaps, kids who are on certain diets and they don't do as well, and the plant-based diet always gets blamed. A lot of that sometimes is the parents being misinformed on what they need to be providing. And so, we really are such big fans of certain fortified foods. We talk a lot about supplements because they're really important. We want to say, "Hey, we think a plant-based or a predominantly plant-based approach is the best for everyone. It's the best for human health, it's the best for planetary health."
Plant-Based Juniors:
We're both young moms and are appalled by the world that our children are being left. And so, this way of eating is really important to us for so many factors. We want to see more people doing this and more people doing it well because the best way that I can convince everyone else to get on board is to show thriving children. And so, if we're having them eat these foods and offer them these fortified options and be so successful and so healthy and thriving on this diet, that's the best way to say to all the naysayers, "Hey, look. Not only are they healthy, but they're really thriving." That's why we focus so much on the nutrition but are also so open to the fortified foods because we know, like Whitney said, some nutrients can be harder, and we don't want to dismiss that just because we want to be promoting a certain way of eating.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Well, listen. I've got three kids myself, a 7-year old, a 12-year-old as of four days ago, and also a 13-year-old. I got to tell you, they've never had a piece of meat their whole life. Now, obviously, they've had dairy inadvertently when they've been at a birthday party and had, ya know, cake or ice cream or something like that. But, otherwise, these guys are as plant strong and they were true plant-based babies and toddlers, and they are just thriving and at the top of their game and it's beautiful.
Plant-Based Juniors:
Love it.
Plant-Based Juniors:
That's amazing. We love hearing that.
Rip Esselstyn:
But I wish that my wife and I would have had your book because it would've been so helpful. Everything that you have, the 50 different recipe meal ideas at the back are just fabulous.
Plant-Based Juniors:
Thank you.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh yeah.
Plant-Based Juniors:
Yeah. Alex and I always like to say, it's not nutrition unless it's eaten. So, we really tried to make this book a guide. Not just filling the nutrition information on you, but teaching you how to implement it in an easy practical way for busy parents.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. I'm going to throw some questions at you guys that you guys talk about in the book, because I think these are questions that, if I was a parent, I would want to know a little bit about this. First thing is, talk about the whole grain paradox. The whole grain paradox. Because if I'm a whole food plant-based dude like I am, I want my kids eating all grain. I don't want them eating processed, refined grains. But you guys got something else to say about that.
Plant-Based Juniors:
Yeah. The whole grain paradox is kind of similar how it sounds, and this is really for young kids. So, we're really talking until the age of about two. That's the idea that a lot of kids do not get enough fiber, but plant-based kids get a lot. Sometimes too much fiber can be harmful especially when we're talking about, again, smaller bodies. Maybe there's issues with digestion, maybe there's issues with nutrient absorption from too much fiber. Getting full too quickly, sometimes that can be a ... Again, that's a really good thing when it comes to weight management and adults, but for a little body who we want to ensure that we're getting enough calories in, filling that too much on fiber-rich foods can be a detriment.
Plant-Based Juniors:
We say, for that age group, so for about two and younger, if you notice this, it doesn't say that you have to offer all these refined grains, but if you notice that your child is not eating as much or perhaps is filling up too much on certain items, then we say it's totally okay to offer about half refined grains and half whole grains to ensure that your child is getting the other nutrition that they need. Because, again, if they're filling up, then they're going to be displacing other opportunities to be eating more nutrient-rich items.
Plant-Based Juniors:
And that's where the paradox is. We want adults and older kids eating as many whole grains as possible. We know that's the key to preventing chronic disease. But with our little babies, it's a little different.
Plant-Based Juniors:
Rethinking the way you think about refined grains as well, what is in a refined grain? We've got calories, we've got protein which some people are surprised to find out that a piece of white bread and a piece of whole wheat bread have the same amount of protein. They both got about four grams of protein. And if we're talking about an enriched refined grain, then they're going to have some of those minerals and vitamins added back in. While that's not the ideal option for an older kid or an adult, that can provide some really vital nutrients to a baby that maybe is not thriving as much because they were getting constipated or they were filling up quickly. And that can, again, like Alex said, be tailored. Sometimes we have families that before the age of one will do the 50-50%. But then, they notice that their kid is just putting things down like a champ, and so, from one to two, they switch over completely to whole grain. So, it really needs to be individualized, like a lot of things in nutrition.
Rip Esselstyn:
You guys do a fabulous job talking about how many calories should our children be getting; what are the macronutrients, protein, carbohydrates, and fat and what should those look like; breaking down out the micronutrients and all the vitamins and the minerals and stuff like that, but I want to ask you about one vitamin in particular that you talk about and that's vitamin P. What is vitamin P and how do our children get vitamin P?
Plant-Based Juniors:
Vitamin P is just so, so vital in the diet and yet not very many people have heard about it. P is for pleasure. Food is supposed to be fun both for your child and for you. Food is a bonding experience for many families. It's something that if you can instill a love of food and an enjoyment around the table at an early age, that's going to set your child up for lifelong positive eating habits.
Plant-Based Juniors:
We talk about vitamin P mainly when we're talking about offering foods that aren't always the most nutrient dense, and this conversation is geared more towards older kids. The first, I think five chapters of our book, are really dedicated till about two, and then the last chapter of our book is talking about looking forward. Alex always says, I wish we could raise our kids in a bubble where they're never exposed to these harmful processed foods or animal products and we can feed them exactly what they want, and they'll love it. But in reality, kids are going to be exposed to corn dogs and pizza and cupcakes and the laundry list of foods that normal, not normal but the mainstream children eat, this sad diet.
Plant-Based Juniors:
And so, we take an approach to that called structure versus restriction. This is where the vitamin P kind of comes in. We want kids to be able to partake in some of these less nutritious items in a structured way so that we don't develop this restriction issue where they're putting these less nutritious foods on a pedestal and it's creating negative eating patterns.
Rip Esselstyn:
Makes complete sense.
Plant-Based Juniors:
We go into a huge deep dive into all of this in the book. As much as we want our kids to be raised on a healthy diet, we also want them to have a healthy relationship with food. We feel like both of those are lifelong habits that we can start to instill in early childhood.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Let me throw out some other questions for you. How do you feel about juice? I see your reaction, but I just want you to know that I've written several books, and in my third book, which is called The Engine 2 Seven-Day Rescue Diet, we're not a fan of smoothies or juices or any of that stuff for a number of reasons. So, I'd like to hear what you have to say about juicing for kids.
Plant-Based Juniors:
We try to reduce or limit or avoid juice for as much as possible. If it's a whole 100% juice, we recognize that it does contain vitamins, it does contain antioxidants, it just also doesn't contain any fiber. Again, we're talking about trying to maximize nutrition with our kids. We just feel like juice is one of those sort of like sometimes foods. If we're out somewhere and they're offering juice, let's say at a birthday party, great, I'll let my son have some apple juice. No big deal. But it's not a food I choose to serve at home because it really doesn't have as much nutrition as I could get from, let's say, having a whole apple or serving those foods with all of those other nutrients involved.
Plant-Based Juniors:
Food is so synergistic with the way that nature packages it and we strip it all down and just give the juice, then we're really not giving our children the opportunity to enjoy the texture and the natural flavor of foods. We feel like juice is one of those foods that's there, it's in a lot of kids diet but we prefer to limit or avoid it as much as possible.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, yeah.
Plant-Based Juniors:
Yeah, it's unnecessary. We treat it like we treat any other sweeter treat.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, yeah. What about salt? What are your thoughts on salt for these toddlers?
Plant-Based Juniors:
Along the lines of every major health organization, we recommend that salt is limited or completely avoided for kids under two. Under the age of 12 months, we want to avoid it as much as possible, which isn't always possible. We're probably going to be offering our kids some things like bread that you bought at the store that's got a little bit of sodium in it or other products here and there. But as much as possible, we want to limit it.
Plant-Based Juniors:
There isn't a lot of firm evidence on the harms of sodium for kids if you actually dig into the research. There's a lot of things that you hear like their kidneys aren't mature enough to process it or that it's linked to chronic disease issues. While the evidence isn't super strong there, what we do know is that a high sodium intake in adulthood is definitely harmful to human health, and we can extrapolate that research and say that it's likely not beneficial for children either especially in these young bodies.
Plant-Based Juniors:
To add to that, as Alex just mentioned, in this zero to two age range, this is when they're really developing their taste preferences for life. If we're feeding them high sugar, high sodium foods, they are going to develop a preference for that and that's going to set them up for a lifelong eating pattern that's really rich in these nutrients that we're actually trying to limit or moderate.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, yeah. Great, great, great point. I want to talk about two things that I would say Americans have a huge irrational fear around, gluten and soy. What are your thoughts? Should my little 1-year-old girl be consuming gluten and soy and is that healthy for her? Or 1-1/2-years old.
Plant-Based Juniors:
Let's talk about soy first. It's funny that I think there's such this fear around it. Soy is actually very well studied. I think there's about 2000 studies that come out each year on soy. We've been digging into the research and possible benefits or not benefits of Soy for decades. That's the good news, right? We have a plethora of studies to pull from.
Plant-Based Juniors:
When we take the 20,000-foot approach, the vast majority of soy studies not only show that it's safe, but potentially beneficial especially for young kids and especially for young girls. Sometimes the concern about soy is related to breast cancer risk, and what the research shows is actually kids, females, who are exposed to soy in early life, even up through adolescence, actually have a lesser risk of breast cancer than those who are just eating soy into adulthood. So, not only do we think soy is completely safe for kids, but we definitely would recommend a serving or two a day especially for women or for young girls because there is that linkage to reduced breast cancer risk later in life.
Plant-Based Juniors:
Soy is probably one of the top foods that we get questions about from parents. Another study that I like to bring up from the journal, the American Medical Association, I think it was about 10 years ago, but they studied a cohort of adults later in life who consumed soy as babies. They followed up at about 25 to 30 years and found absolutely no reproductive or developmental differences.
Plant-Based Juniors:
And so, to go to Alex's point, again, there's just so, so much research. We have tons of children in the US and globally who have been raised on soy formula, so it's not like it's this understudied issue. There are many children who are consuming large amounts of soy early in life and we're not seeing harmful effects, so it's a lot of miss.
Rip Esselstyn:
When you guys say soy, I'd like for you guys to tell me what you mean because I'm assuming you're not talking about processed refined soy and soy protein isolates and concentrates.
Plant-Based Juniors:
We're talking a lot mostly about traditional soy foods. We're talking about things like tofu, like tempeh. Soy milk, like we said before, our recommended plant-based beverage for kids for these reasons and for the other things that soy does contain. Not only is soy a great source of protein and some healthy fat, but it also contains choline, which can be more limiting in a plant-based diet. It's got fiber, and we're talking about the whole soy plant.
Plant-Based Juniors:
There are lots of benefits for including soy. We don't promote as much the processed foods or the mock meats that use soy. Are they fine on occasion? Absolutely, but we don't want that to be the main focus of the diet.
Plant-Based Juniors:
I do want to state, though, that a lot of soy naysayers and critics will always point out, "Oh, yeah, well, soy is safe but only the good soy, only the fermented soy, only the stuff that they eat in Asian cultures." Again, yes, we want to see you eating the most whole food sources this way possible, but if we're talking about what the literature shows, there isn't any literature that shows that certain forms of soy are okay and certain aren't. Soy is a safe food across the board. There isn't any research that shows that it's harmful.
Plant-Based Juniors:
And a lot of that, the clinical-
Plant-Based Juniors:
We're talking about mice, which don't metabolize soy the same way that people do.
Plant-Based Juniors:
Yeah, and I was just going to point out, a lot of the clinical research actually uses more of the processed soy or the supplements because it's easier in a placebo-controlled study. You can't give someone tofu and then say, "Oh, well, you don't know what group you're in." So, sometimes they'll use those analogs because it's easier to study, and so we have good research on those too that those concerns about soy really, really necessarily not warranted.
Plant-Based Juniors:
We're not encouraging you to eat those more processed forms of soy, we're just saying that even the so-called bad soy is good soy.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right, right, right.
Plant-Based Juniors:
There are no bad soy. It's okay.
Rip Esselstyn:
What about gluten? Let's talk about gluten for a sec for our babies and toddlers.
Plant-Based Juniors:
I think with the rise of the Paleo group, this sort of anti-grain group, there's this myth that goes around that baby's digestive systems are too immature to process gluten. That is just not true. We know that because the enzyme, digestive enzyme, that's needed to break down grains, amylase, is present not only in baby's saliva but also further down the digestive tract. That evidence that not only are we able to break these foods down, but we likely are designed to do that.
Plant-Based Juniors:
Whole grains contain so many nutrients, especially when we're talking about plant-based kids, right? We're trying to maximize nutrition. They contain iron, they contain zinc, they contain protein. A lot of people forget that a cup of whole grain pasta contains 8 grams of protein. If I'm a toddler that only needs 18, 19 maybe grams of protein a day, that's a really easy, highly palatable way to get that protein in. So, we don't think there's any need to avoid gluten unless there's some type of medical issue. Obviously, if you're celiac or if your baby has sometimes some other autoimmune issues where a gluten-free diet is better for them, wonderful. We want to support you in that way and make sure you're still offering those nutrients. But for the average child, we don't see any evidence that a gluten-free diet is warranted.
Plant-Based Juniors:
I also want to point out that, and now I'm going to be talking about wheat versus gluten. Gluten is a protein component found in wheat, but wheat is one of the top eight, and now they've changed it to nine, allergens. What research is actually showing is that by introducing these common allergens early and often, as soon as baby starts eating around six months, you're going to lower your baby's risk of developing a food allergy later in life. So, not only do we not want you avoiding gluten, we want you giving it soon to hopefully reduce your child's risk of allergy later in life.
Rip Esselstyn:
I find that so interesting. It's just the opposite of what most people are implementing these days.
Plant-Based Juniors:
Yes. And it just goes to show you too how nutrition research can change. You have to be open to listening to the evidence because just 10 years ago, it was the opposite. Doctors were telling people to avoid these common allergens, to avoid peanuts until two or three years of life. And now, we've learned that the reverse is true.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, one of the things that is remarkable to me is how many people these days seem to have some sort of an allergy, whether it's to corn, wheat, soy, nuts. When I was growing up, I knew one guy who had an allergy to strawberries. He couldn't eat strawberries. That was like it.
Plant-Based Juniors:
Yeah. It's something like, I think one in seven kids. Correct me if I'm wrong, Alex.
Plant-Based Juniors:
Yeah, it's somewhere around that.
Plant-Based Juniors:
It's very high. The allergy rates are rising in children. We really don't know why, but a lot of people believe that diet has something to do with it.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. You guys do a great job to me in the book talking about how to have conversations, whether it's with grandparents that are on board with this, whether it's with ... You live in a house divided?
Plant-Based Juniors:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
With a parent that isn't on board with this, going to birthday parties, family dinners, restaurants. I'd love for you guys to just maybe talk about one of those that, maybe, you're feeling.
Plant-Based Juniors:
Yeah. Let's talk about kids because we get a lot of questions on how do I talk to my children about how we eat?
Plant-Based Juniors:
I think sometimes very well-meaning parents think that our kids need to have all of these nutrition facts, especially younger kids. The reality is that kids don't necessarily need nutrition lessons, right? We can offer broccoli to our toddlers just because broccoli is a family food, not because I need to know that broccoli has all of these other nutrients for growth. Because when we start setting these foods up, especially when we're talking about younger kids like this food does this, if you don't eat it then this might happen, or you have to have this food for X. If the child doesn't like that food or they don't want to eat that food, then the internal dialogue can be, "Oh, I'm not going to grow because I'm not having that food," or "Mom's telling me this food is so good for my eyes and I don't like that food, so now ..." It's a lot for younger kids to handle.
Plant-Based Juniors:
So, we say, to take an opposite approach, talking about the characteristics of food. When I put broccoli on my son's plate, we talk about how crunchy it is and how green it is and how silly it is that it looks like trees. Really making these foods fun and enjoyable and not having them on such these pedestals because the opposite thing also happens. When we start to push the nutrition messaging for young kids, we tend to also push the anti-nutrient message. For instance, things like, "Oh, if you eat that candy, that's not good for you. That has too much sugar. That's going to be harmful." Again, kids don't need to know at this young age what foods are "bad for them" because that's a lot harder for them to disassociate between, oh, this food is bad, or am I bad for eating it? So, we have the conversations to be really positive, almost neutral, around food.
Plant-Based Juniors:
Research shows this actually allows kids to feel like all foods are equal, so they're not having these thoughts of, "Oh, I have to eat this broccoli because it's the bad food. Mom always pushes it on me and always tells me how much I have to eat it, but she always tells me that the cupcakes are horrible for me and I don't have to eat them." That's just a lot of messages that young kids are hard ... it's harder to wade through. So, we just say, take a step back, offer food the way it is. We talked about how to do this in the book but -
Rip Esselstyn:
You sure do.
Plant-Based Juniors:
... they can seem okay, but they can be harmful.
Plant-Based Juniors:
Research really shows that pressure, whether it's negative or positive, always seems to backfire. Whether you're trying to pressure kids to eat something or you're trying to pressure them to avoid something, in both cases you're going to get the opposite result. So, when parents try to restrict children who maybe they're worried are eating too much or gaining too much weight, these kids end up eating more and gaining more weight. When parents start to get worried that a kid is underweight and start trying to force them to eat foods, they typically end up consuming less.
Plant-Based Juniors:
Alex and I, we follow a model called the division of responsibility, and this outlines parents' roles in feeding and children's roles. It really says that it's parent's job to choose the food that's going to be served, when it's going to be served and where it's going to be served, and then it's the child's job to decide if they want to eat and, if so, how much they want to eat. By taking the pressure off the plate, kids usually are able to dictate their own hunger and fullness cues and end up having more positive eating habits and a wider palette.
Rip Esselstyn:
You guys are brilliant. I'm going to just give some examples for the listeners that I took verbatim from the book. It's just so beautiful. This is how most of us talk to our kids. "Eat your broccoli. It's good for you, " whereas you guys say, a better way of saying it is, "Broccoli makes our body and brain strong." Love it. Right? Here's another one, "Here's a plate of cookies. Don't eat too many," or "Here's a plate of cookies, enjoy as many as you like."
Plant-Based Juniors:
That one scares a lot of people too.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yes. I doesn't scare me.
Plant-Based Juniors:
I want to give an example for that, actually. Yeah, people say, "Well, if I give my kid the whole plate of cookies, they're going to heat the whole plate of cookies and they're going to barf." Alex and I say, "They might, and then what's going to happen after they barf? They're going to learn a very valuable lesson, that eating a whole plate of cookies doesn't feel good."
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Plant-Based Juniors:
And a way more valuable lesson than Whitney and I standing over our kids being like, "Don't eat too many."
Plant-Based Juniors:
The other thing is, two, we're also trying to teach them how to self-regulate. That's a really big thing. We're born with these innate abilities to understand hunger and fullness. So much of how we go through life, especially with all of the numerous diet culture and messages especially our young kids are so privy to, it really messes up with understanding what does hunger feels like and what does fullness feel like. And so, if we allow them these opportunities to have too many cookies or to enjoy the sweet someplace, it really teaches them those lessons that are so much more powerful than just our words as parents.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Here's a perfect example. This is the way most people do it, "You need to watch how much you eat or else you'll gain excessive weight," whereas you guys recommend, "We listen to our tummy and stop eating when it feels full." That's so awesome.
Plant-Based Juniors:
You also have to remember ... Tell me, when you were a child, if your parents told you not to do something or not to eat something, whether it'd be avoiding a food or a behavior or a friend, what did you do? You wanted that thing all the more, right?
Rip Esselstyn:
Normally, it made you very curious and you wanted it now.
Plant-Based Juniors:
Like I need to examine this a little bit closer. This thing sounds like highly desirable.
Rip Esselstyn:
You guys, I am so excited for you. The Plant-Based Baby and Toddler coming out next week. Absolutely huge. This is going to be a blockbuster, I know it. Any mothers, any fathers that have children that are young or expecting children that are young, that no parents that are having babies, grandparents, you'll want to get this book. It truly is the definitive guide-book, and you can rest assure that your baby and toddler is getting everything they need. What a gift. What a gift to give to your baby and your toddler that will last a lifetime. So, you guys, thank you.
Plant-Based Juniors:
Thank you.
Plant-Based Juniors:
Thank you, Rip.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh, yeah. Any parting words that you want to say about where we can find you guys? Instagram handles, Plant-Based Juniors community, anything like that?
Plant-Based Juniors:
Yeah. We're Plant-Based Juniors on all social platforms. Our website is plantbasedjuniors.com. You can get the book at plantbasedbabyandtoddler.com and at all major book retailers. We have a very active community over on Instagram primarily as well as on our email list where we send out lots of freebies every day, well every couple of days.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, I'm so proud of what you guys have done. What do your parents think of what you guys are doing?
Plant-Based Juniors:
They're excited. I think about the way I was raised. My parents are both European, so we had a very different childhood when it came to food, and I love the fact that they're both so into. They're not fully plant based, but they love the idea of eating more plants and just seeing the way that we raise our kids, it's like, "Wow, I wish I knew this when I was raising you guys."
Plant-Based Juniors:
I think they're really excited. My dad had a heart attack two years ago and a quadruple bypass. That's when he started listening to me, for once, about my so-called rantings and ravings about the benefits of a plant-based diet. He's finally started adopting things. Again, he's not plant-based but he is opening up his heart to tofu and incorporating more plant-based options in his diet.
Rip Esselstyn:
I recommend that we send him a copy of Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease.
Plant-Based Juniors:
Yes, I think that's a great idea.
Rip Esselstyn:
I hav a guy that I know very well.
Plant-Based Juniors:
I would say, you know a guy, yeah.
Plant-Based Juniors:
Can you hook it up for me?
Rip Esselstyn:
We can make that happen for sure. We got the spectrum. We got it from babies and toddlers all the way-
Plant-Based Juniors:
All the way out.
Plant-Based Juniors:
We are covered.
Rip Esselstyn:
We're covered. All right, Alexandra, Whitney, you guys have been fabulous. Thank you for what you're bringing to the world. Let's do our little sign off, so follow after me please. Peace ...
Plant-Based Juniors:
Peace.
Plant-Based Juniors:
Peace.
Rip Esselstyn:
Turn it around, Engine 2.
Plant-Based Juniors:
Engine 2.
Rip Esselstyn:
Keep the plant strong.
Plant-Based Juniors:
Keep the plant strong.
Plant-Based Juniors:
Keep the plant strong. Thank you so much, Rip.
Plant-Based Juniors:
Thank you, Rip. Thank you.
Rip Esselstyn:
Thank you.
Sophie Esselstyn:
The Plant-Based Juniors and everyone at PLANTSTRONG want to empower you to make the best nutrition decisions for your family, so thank you, Whitney and Alex, for your tireless efforts, vast resources and gorgeous recipes. Your information is so vital, and I'm convinced that the more plant strong babies and toddlers we foster, the brighter future we will all have, one full of health and compassion. Doesn't that sound wonderful? Thanks for listening, and for all of the resources on this episode, visit the episode page at plantstrongpodcast.com. We'll see you next week for a special party. You don't want to miss it. Take care.
Rip Esselstyn:
Thank you for listening to the PLANTSTRONG Podcast. You can support the show by taking a quick minute to follow us wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Leaving us a positive review and sharing the show with your network is another great way to help us reach as many people as possible with the exciting news about plants. Thank you in advance for your support, it means everything.
Rip Esselstyn:
Have you had your own Galileo moment that you'd like to share? What happened when you stepped into the arena and shed the beliefs that you thought to be true? I'd love to hear about it. Visit plantstrongpodcast.com to submit your story and to learn more about today's guests and sponsors.
Rip Esselstyn:
The PLANTSTRONG Podcast team includes Carrie Barrett, Laurie Kortowich, Ami Mackey, Patrick Gavin and Wade Clark. This season is dedicated to all those courageous truth seekers who weren't afraid to look through the lens with clear vision and hold firm to a higher truth. Most notably, my parents, Dr. Caldwell B. Esselstyn, Jr. and Ann Crile Esselstyn. Thanks for listening.
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