#85: Brian Wendel - Celebrating the Film that Started a Movement - Happy 10th Anniversary to Forks over Knives
Brian Wendel, founder and president of Forks Over Knives and creator and executive producer of the Forks Over Knives feature film.
Today's episode is a celebration and look back at the 10-year-anniversary of the film, Forks over Knives with Brian Wendel, founder and president of Forks Over Knives and creator and executive producer of the Forks Over Knives feature film.
This film examines the profound claim that most, if not all, of the chronic diseases that afflict us can be controlled or even reversed by rejecting animal-based and processed foods, has gone on to become one of the most popular and longest-running independent films ever on Netflix. Plus, it is still available to stream for free at www.Forksoverknives.com.
For a decade now, this film has been one of the most popular “entry points” for those who are plant-curious. Why? Because it’s approachable, friendly, and attainable. Today, we relive the making of this film with Brian - How and why did he develop the story? When did he even know he was really onto something special? We think you’ll appreciate that so much of the success of Forks over Knives is a result of “happy accidents” and the universe doing its thing -- putting the right people together at just the right time.
The lives of all of these people, including the entire Esselstyn family, have been changed for the better and it was an honor being a part of such a powerful film that created a tidal wave of change and acceptance for living PlantStrong.
Congratulations and Happy Anniversary to Forks over Knives.
About Brian Wendel and Forks Over Knives
In 2001, Brian Wendel attended a conference on nutrition. There, a plant-based expert made a compelling enough argument that a Staten Island boy raised on pizza and roast beef decided to go all-in on plant foods. He had no idea it would forever alter the course of his life.
Over the next eight years, Brian immersed himself in the lifestyle, learning about the disease-reversing power of a plant-based diet. The evidence was strong, yet the overwhelming majority of the population had no idea that this simple change could have such a drastic impact. Brian wanted to reach as many people as possible with this information, so in 2009, he began work on a documentary film.
Forks Over Knives became a spark for national change. The film was a hit. The accompanying book became a New York Times No. 1 bestseller. And most importantly, Brian saw legions of people—including his own father and members of the film’s cast and crew—adopting a plant-based diet and regaining control of their health and their lives. It was obvious that Forks Over Knives was no longer just a side project, so Brian quit his day job in real estate and took on the movement full time.
Episode and PLANTSTRONG Resources:
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Full Transcript
Brian Wendel:
The whole-food plant-based diet is the means to get there, but that's the story. And we didn't want to lose focus on that. We didn't want to get too much, "why we're here," or all that other stuff. We touch upon it in the film, but we really wanted the emphasis to be, "You have more control than what you realize." And also, it was very important for us to speak to people in a way that we're basically speaking to them in a very positive tone. That we're not judging where they are, we're just soberly laying out the facts.
Rip Esselstyn:
Season three of the PLANTSTRONG Podcast explores those Galileo moments where you seek to understand the real truth around your health, and dare to see the world through a different lens. This season, we honor those courageous seekers who are paving the way for you and me. So grab your telescope, point it towards your future and let's get PLANTSTRONG together.
Rip Esselstyn:
Welcome to another episode of the PLANTSTRONG podcast. I'm Rip Esselstyn, your host, and today we have a party of sorts. An anniversary celebration. 10 years ago, a little documentary film was released that changed the course of my life and the lives of millions of people. Who would have thought that a film about two farm raised, mid-Western doctors, T. Colin Campbell and my father, Dr. Caldwell B. Esselstyn, Jr., would go on to become one of the longest running independent films on Netflix? Well, it did. And today we celebrate the 10 year anniversary of Forks Over Knives with the creator and executive producer of the film, Brian Wendel.
Rip Esselstyn:
For a decade now this film has been one of the most popular entry points for those who are plant curious. Why? Because it's approachable, friendly and attainable. I loved reliving the making of this film with Brian. How and why did he develop the story? When did he even know he was really onto something? And I think you'll appreciate that so much of the success of Forks Over Knives is a result of happy accidents and the universe doing its thing. Putting the right people together at just the right time. Let's say hello and happy anniversary to Forks Over Knives and Brian Wendel.
Rip Esselstyn:
All right, PLANTSTRONG people. Welcome to the PLANTSTRONG podcast. I have a very special guest today. Been trying to get him on the podcast for a while. There's a perfect reason to have him on this year, this month, and that's because we're celebrating something big. But I first met this gentleman back in 2009. They were doing some filming for a documentary, they came to the engine two fire station, and they got us doing our thing there. They got us working out in all of our gear, wearing air tanks, doing pull-ups. They got us eating our brown rice and black bean extravaganza. They got all these men chomping vegetables. They got me climbing the poles without my legs, saying, "real men eat plants." And they even had the good fortune to get us making a car fire and doing a medical emergency. Somebody that was diabetic.
Rip Esselstyn:
When they came and they did this I was like, "Okay." Because we were getting a lot of press at the time, because we were the PLANTSTRONG firefighters at station two. And I had no idea that this little half-day of filming would turn out to be one of the most kind of iconic documentaries of the last decade. And it was Forks Over Knives. So the gentleman that I have on the podcast today is none other than Brian Wendel. Brian is the brain child behind Forks Over Knives. He's the executive producer, the president of Forks Over Knives. And Brian, welcome to the PLANTSTRONG podcast.
Brian Wendel:
Thank you so much, Rip. It's so great to be here with you.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, yeah. Well, it's great to have you. And you know, Brian, when did Forks Over Knives come out? What month, what day? Can you remember?
Brian Wendel:
May 2011, it made its debut in theaters.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow. May 2011-
Brian Wendel:
It's literally our 10 year anniversary this May.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right, right. Well first, can you believe that it's been 10 years?
Brian Wendel:
Yeah, time goes by fast, man. It's been an incredible journey. And I thought by now I'd be back in the real estate business, where I started off. I'm still working on Forks Over Knives, 10 years later. So, a lot has happened. There's been a lot of evolution in plant-based lifestyles. Obviously you've been a very big part of that. And yeah, it's been an amazing journey and it has gone by really, really quickly, for sure.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. So talking about the journey, so this season of the PLANTSTRONG podcast, we're really kind of looking at these trailblazing pioneers that have really gotten outside their comfort zone and made a real difference. And that, to me, epitomizes you and what you've done with Forks Over Knives. But I'd love to know, and I'd love for our listeners to understand, what was your journey? Because you just mentioned that you were in real estate. So what's a guy like real estate doing, all of a sudden deciding, "You know what? I'm going to try on my documentary chops."
Brian Wendel:
Yeah. And just so you know, I didn't even have any experience with a home video camera before. So it's definitely an interesting journey, but I had really gotten into plant-based lifestyles. Probably not even using the term plant-based at the time, in 2001. But really became passionate about the health side of it for many years. As time went by, I just began to see more and more evidence that people can improve their health with it. And certainly, I started reading people like John McDougall and others, and I knew about the work of Nathan Pritikin. So I understood the idea of "healthy vegan" as well.
Brian Wendel:
But really, it was when I read The China Study that I really was just overwhelmed by how much evidence there was out there. Keeping in mind that Colin Campbell's book, The China Study, wasn't just about his study in China or even about just his own work, per se. It was really a lay out of a lot of the evidence that brought him to that conclusion. That we can prevent and reverse disease with a whole-food plant-based lifestyle. And when I read that, I was just like, "Man, there is just so much information out there." And I really wanted to do something about it. And I thought about it like, "Well, maybe I can do a home video." I even had the idea of going back to school for nutrition. But then I woke up in the middle of the night sweating, thinking what it would be like to be back in chemistry lab again, so...
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Brian Wendel:
But then, Rip, I really started to think about something bigger. How can I really get this out in a big way? And I thought, well, there had been a lot of books written about it. And obviously your dad is just a huge part of this thing, but there really was no visual presentation. I felt like as much as this had been in writing, if people can see it up on screen it would have a really, really powerful impact. And literally when I had the idea, this is something I want to be doing, it was like, "Flash." Not even a question in my mind, I didn't have to think about it. At that point it was really only about the execution.
Brian Wendel:
So I had the idea and I'm in LA, so I reached out to some friends of mine and one of them knew a guy named John Corry, who produces documentaries. I chatted with him, and I ran the idea by him, and I was kind of excited. He had experience shooting in China. I didn't know how large of a role Colin was going to play in the film at the time, but I knew it was going to be something significant. And we hit it off. Two days later he sent me a note saying, "Look, the topic is too vast. I'm not in." I said, "Okay, I'm going to go find someone else to make the documentary with." Because obviously I needed to bring in a team. Like I said before, I didn't know how to use a home video camera. But then he came back a few days later. He's like, "I can't get this out of my mind. I keep seeing things on the news and I keep thinking about how absurd this is that people don't know this information."
Brian Wendel:
And keeping in mind at that point in time, I think it was mid-2008, late 2008, and health care debate was really ongoing. And he literally said, "I can't believe nobody's even talking about the ability to lessen our burden on the health care system overall. It's always about who pays for it." So he came back and he introduced me to Lee Fulkerson. The three of us met, and we really got aligned on a vision very quickly. And from the time I met John, which was in 2008, literally in three months I had left my job and was off to the races producing Forks Over Knives with John and Lee. So-
Rip Esselstyn:
So for people don't know those names, John Corry came on board as the producer, correct?
Brian Wendel:
That's correct, yes.
Rip Esselstyn:
And then Lee Fulkerson came on board as the director.
Brian Wendel:
That's right.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, and we'll talk about this, he also had a role to play and was a phenomenal narrator of the whole movie, right?
Brian Wendel:
That's right, yeah. So it's kind of funny. He was never thinking to do that. And literally, we knew... John and I suspected he probably had some kind of health issues and stuff like that. Because just about everybody on a western diet at that age is beginning to show some kind of evidence of health's... You're drinking Red Bull's, and eating burgers, and stuff like that, which he was-
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, right.
Brian Wendel:
We literally went to Dr. Matt Lederman's office and, literally with a handheld camera, "Let's just have Lee... let's just stage this thing, not stage it, but let's..." We met Matt Lederman first and we're like, "Hey, let's just get Lee involved. Let's see what happens. We'll just roll with John's hand-held camera and see what happens." And sure enough he goes in there and he goes for a blood test and all this. And ultimately learns that he has high cholesterol and he has all the signs of western cardiac disease. So that was not the original plan, but he was a good sport and decided to be a part of the film.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, and he had a phenomenal success story. Between his cholesterol, his LDL, his CRP, marker of inflammation, his weight loss. He hit it out of the park.
Brian Wendel:
Yeah. I mean, Rip, you know as well as anybody. If you follow the diet you'd be surprised if it doesn't work. I mean, this works. There's no question about it. The compliance is always an issue, but if you do it, you're going to see the benefits.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. So I still want to go back to, here you are. How long had you been doing real estate?
Brian Wendel:
Since the late '90s. So it had to be over 10 years. But anyone that knew me, Rip, always knew that I was very passionate about the food and health thing for a long time, since I got into it in 2001. So, I guess for some people it wasn't surprising when I would tell them that this is something I really want to do with my life, that I would go off and do it. I was a professional. But sometimes life calls you, and that's how I felt with this project. And, again, once I had the idea to do it, I had no doubt that this is what I wanted to do with my life.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Well, I mean, to me it's just so amazing that you had this light bulb moment. You didn't really question it, you went after it. And look where you are now, 10 years later. And I want to talk about the Forks Over Knives universe and what that looks like. It's just phenomenal to me. But for now... So you got John, you got Lee, you kind of had this idea. And then how did the story unfold of Forks Over Knives? Meaning you got Colin and my father as the two main threads. How did that happen?
Brian Wendel:
The original plan was, I didn't know who the key players were in the space, but it was really going to be a documentary about the group of them. And it turned out in some ways to be so, but really it was after we had gotten together. We decided to do this film in January, so at this point we don't know that Colin and your dad are going to be the main story threads. But then within a three week period we meet both your dad and Colin, in a three week period. I met your dad at a restaurant in Los Angeles. He was just amazing, and just blew us away. He showed us his x-rays, car-
Rip Esselstyn:
Angiograms.
Brian Wendel:
Angiograms of a disease reversal, which he likes to show. And we met Colin a few weeks later. Lee and I had just been talking. We had been diving deeper, we'd been talking to these guys on the phone, and we realized just how much in common they had with each other. Born three months apart, both grew up on farms, both go to leading institutions, both grow up thinking that milk is nature's perfect food. And then, my goodness, they both had gone on to do their own research, and they both come, ultimately, to the same conclusion around the same time. I mean, it's history to be made. So, after meeting your dad and then Colin, I'm seeing if they're talking about these coincidences a little bit or somewhat, and then meeting them in person just absolutely blew us away.
Brian Wendel:
Right after meeting Colin, I literally went back to the hotel room with Lee and we were talking about this. The words I said to him, "Let's just build the whole damn film around these two guys." And that's what we did. Obviously, we wanted everybody else in it, but we felt that if we're going to impart information on people, we really felt having a story part was good. And, my goodness, there was a story there to be told. It was literally just uncovered by us but the story was already there, if you will.
Rip Esselstyn:
So you took Colin and you took my father, and then you just built everybody, kind of appendages off those two main threads.
Brian Wendel:
That's exactly right. That was the plan, and I think it played good. As you know, we opened up the film on their respective farms, and we really wanted people to latch onto the fact that these people... They're ordinary people, Rip, like anybody else, and we wanted to show that and that they were once on the other side. That's really vitally important, because a lot of times the argument is, "Hey, they're just vegan advocates. That's all they are." And we really didn't want that to come off that way because that's not true. And we wanted to establish them as just ordinary folk, which they are.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh, yes. So the film... First, let me ask you this before we talk about the success of Forks Over Knives. So, the process. How long did the actual process take, between when you kind of got John and Lee on board, and then May 11th, 2011 when it hit the big screen?
Brian Wendel:
Yeah, so that's a little more than a two year process. We started filming in January 2009, and the launch of the theatrical was May 2011. So a little more than two years. But we had gotten done with the film, like a good rough cut, about maybe a little more than a year into it. Then we did this whole advanced screening program... But first, before the advanced screening program, there was a period of time where we literally just test screened it to see how audiences would react to it. Then after that we got into the advanced screenings, which you were a huge part of, as you know.
Brian Wendel:
That was basically it. Then in 2011 we had the premiere, and away we went.
Rip Esselstyn:
So was it harder than you anticipated, making this documentary?
Brian Wendel:
No, and all of us on the crew realized that it seemed like almost anything and everything we needed to get or wanted, it seemed to be very easy. Almost like it was meant to be. The amazing thing about it, the quality of the people in the space, the experts like your dad, and Colin, and Neil Barnard, and John McDougall... These guys, all of them, without even really knowing who we are, they're so helpful. They just wanted to get the message out. And in a lot of ways it really was surprising how smooth things went.
Brian Wendel:
It's kind of funny. If you listen to Ian, he's surprised by the ultimate outcome of Forks. And the answer is no. Anybody on the crew at that time will tell you that we all felt, along the way, that we were on to something. We were getting these interviews. And just remember, the idea of disease prevention reversal, it was out there but it really wasn't in the pocket of culture. And we felt that the people only can know this information, that their heart disease, that you can either stop the progression or reverse it. Or your type 2 diabetes is, in so many cases, reversible.
Brian Wendel:
I think that people thought that diet is something that may help on the edges a little bit, but the fact there's such a significant cause and effect between the diet and actually not having these very significant problems. And we felt that, when we can do that, that there was going to be a lot of popularity around that idea. So we felt really good at where this was going.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, you should trust your instincts because they lead you down the right path. I mean, look what you did with this documentary. To me, it's such a... And I don't know if this is intentional or not, but it's such a feel-good documentary. Like at the end, at the [knob 00:18:45], everybody's sitting around that table. There's no head of the table, everybody's sitting around that round table, and they're toasting their salad bowls. Basically, it seemed like, "Here's to you, and here's to good health." And you pieced it together so brilliantly, you ended it so brilliantly. To me, it's the most welcoming on-ramp to a whole-food plant-based lifestyle that is out there. You've, I think, moved the needle more than any documentary ever. And because of that you've literally, globally, helped millions... Not exaggerating, millions of people with that documentary. You must just feel like you're walking on air every day.
Brian Wendel:
It is very rewarding. There's nothing, and you're in this business too, as meeting people who say, "Oh my god. You changed my life. I was once very sick," or whatever. There's a professional satisfaction that we have in our work that's just... It's indescribable. I just feel very fortunate and blessed.
Brian Wendel:
In terms of the documentary and its effectiveness, I really believe... And you're saying how positive it was. We could have easily spent the hour and half just talking about the meat and dairy industry and all their faults. To me, I always viewed my mission as being something that... This was really a good news story, Rip, at the end of the day. And really, what is the story of Forks Over Knives at the end of the day? It's that you have more control over your disease outcomes than what you've ever realized. The whole-food plant-based diet is the means to get there, but that's the story. And we didn't want to lose focus on that. We didn't want to get too much "why we're here," or all that other stuff. We touch upon it in the film, but we really wanted the emphasis to be, "you have more control than what you realize."
Brian Wendel:
Also it was very important for us to speak to people in a way... That we're basically speaking to them in a very positive tone, that we're not judging where they are. We're just soberly laying out the facts. We felt it was very important that you do not want to insult the very people that you want to persuade.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, yeah. Well, not only did this documentary move the needle more than any other documentary that's out there with plant-based. Maybe, recently, Game Changers is doing some things. But I would say, back in 2011 when this came out, this was fringe. I mean, eating plant-based, this lifestyle? It was fringe. Literally a decade later, Brian, you tell me if you think I'm exaggerating, this is mainstream. Right? Being-
Brian Wendel:
Absolutely. Yeah. I don't think that's even hard to argue. You could just look at all the money that's pouring into plant-based. It's a very commonly held term. I mean, plant-based, when we started... I think we were able to buy the URL for next to nothing, plantbased.com. Again, we didn't invent the term, but I feel like we kind of let it boil in to the mainstream in some ways. And that was an important reason why I wanted to do the film in the first place, was really make this more of a mainstream concept. Because the idea back in the old days was, "Hey, eating vegan or vegetarian lifestyle... You could do it, but it's not that healthy. You've got to do it in a certain way, and watch this, and watch that." Which turns out to be true, but I'm just saying it looked like it was generally an unhealthy thing to do. Because you were going to come across certain horrible deficiencies.
Brian Wendel:
So anyway, we wanted to really dispel those false notions and bring the positive side to light, which was deserving.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well you certainly started conversations around the dinner table like nobody's business. Looking back, with what you know now, like 10 years after making the film, is there anything you would have done differently?
Brian Wendel:
Oh, boy. I mean-
Rip Esselstyn:
That's probably not a fair question.
Brian Wendel:
It's hard because now you know more. And you look at the documentary and, of course, there's so many things you might have done a little bit differently. But I try not to really get caught up in there, because I think we really did the best job we could at the time. The main thing is that it really achieved it's objective, which was really to introduce this concept to a lot of people that hadn't been previously introduced to it. So in a lot of ways I think I'm very proud of it, and I think all the members of the team are as well. I think we couldn't be happier in a lot of ways.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well and you, in 2000... When did you come on to Netflix? Was that 2011 as well?
Brian Wendel:
Actually it was right away. We came on end of August 2011. So we did the theatrical in May 2011. A lot of people don't realize this, but Netflix was fledgling at the time and a lot of people didn't think they were going to survive. It's strange to look back on it now, but a lot of filmmakers did not want to go on to Netflix because they thought it would cannibalize their DVD sales. And I found a wonderful distributor, Virgil Films, and he pitched me... So different distributors I was meeting with pitched different ideas, and he's like, "No. You've got to go day-and-date with Netflix. If I can get you a Netflix deal, it'll make the documentary really popular."
Brian Wendel:
And I bought his argument. But you have to understand that Netflix then wasn't what it is today. They were mostly DVD business. They were just dabbling into streaming business, and a lot of people didn't want to be involved. A lot of filmmakers thought that that was a scar, to be a part of that. But it turned out to be an unbelievably great thing because, even though the streaming wasn't hugely popular at that point nationwide, the right people were streaming at that time. A lot of celebrities were streaming things on Netflix looking for content.
Brian Wendel:
So when we came out on Netflix, you probably remember this, but it was like every day big name celebrities were coming out, tweeting about the film. And that was creating a lot of popularity around it through Netflix. And people who didn't have Netflix then were buying the DVD in big numbers. So then we had quite the long run on Netflix after that.
Rip Esselstyn:
I mean, what did you have, a nine year run on Netflix?
Brian Wendel:
Yeah, that's right. We were on until, I think, a little less than a year ago. We came down, and we were told that we were one of the longest running independent films ever on Netflix. So it's quite an honor. When I say that, I mean that as a non-original, not a Netflix Original or anything. That didn't even exist back then.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, yeah. No, it was so easy just to tell people, "Go to Netflix, watch Forks Over Knives. That's your homework tonight." Yeah, wow. You were in the right place at the right time, for sure, with all that.
Rip Esselstyn:
Are there any famous people that you can share with us who have reached out to because they saw Forks Over Knives, and you've now developed a relationship with them?
Brian Wendel:
Yeah, no. No, no. Actually, literally, the answer is no. That's not me being dodgy or anything. A lot of famous people have tweeted about it or spoken about it publicly. I mean, a lot of people. Kristen Bell, Dax Shepard, Danny DeVito... The list is quite long, but nobody reached out privately to me.
Brian Wendel:
Actually, let me take a step back. Arian Foster back in the day, I guess. I don't know if you consider him a celebrity, but he-
Rip Esselstyn:
He was the running back for the Houston... right?
Brian Wendel:
Houston Texans, and at the time he was maybe one of the top five running backs in the league. And he reached out to us, and we got to hang out with him which was quite an honor. A couple of times. Darshana, my now-fiancée but my very longtime partner, was able to make him a couple of meals, and we had quite a lot of fun together.
Rip Esselstyn:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Brian Wendel:
But also, I can't say I have this spectacular celebrity Rolodex.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right, right, right.
Rip Esselstyn:
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Rip Esselstyn:
You and I both have very special relationships with our fathers. And I think that we respect them, and we look up to them in a very major way. What was your father's... What did he think, when he found out that you were getting out of real estate and you were going to make a documentary? Was he supportive, or was he like, "Brian, you've flown the coop?"
Brian Wendel:
Yeah. No, he was actually very supportive pretty early on in the process. So my dad has always had this thing, like I should always just follow my dreams and do whatever I want. When I told him this was something I wanted to do, he was like, "Go for it." If it's okay, I'd love to just share the story about my dad and your day.
Rip Esselstyn:
No, no. I think that's perfect. Yeah. Small world.
Brian Wendel:
I think I've told you this story before, but my dad... A lot of people don't know this, but his life was basically helped by your dad's on two separate occasions. I had always heard my dad had these horrible kidney stones when I was growing up. He was diagnosed with having this very unusual condition. It's called hyperparathyroidism. So not your thyroid, but your parathyroid. He had a small tumor on that parathyroid. And apparently, he did all this wonderful research to figure out who the best surgeon was in the world to help him with this. My dad always likes to get the best, the best, the best.
Brian Wendel:
So it turns out it was a guy from the Cleveland Clinic named Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn. But all these years went by, I heard about this awesome surgeon but never really knew who it was, that it was Dr. Esselstyn. I just heard about this great surgeon at the Cleveland Clinic. So many years later I'm telling my dad, "I'm going to do this film." And I tell him, "Hey, I want you to read a couple books," and one of them was The China Study. He's reading The China Study... And let me just say for a second, my dad never really bought into the plant-based diet and heart disease thing. I had been pushing him literally for seven or eight years. He would say, "My doctor says is congenital." Those were his words, "congenital."
Brian Wendel:
Anyway, he reads The China Study. He's totally a regular omnivore. Then one day I get a phone call from him, and he goes, "One of the guys that's in your movie, that you're interested in. Dr. Esselstyn! Dr. Esselstyn!" And I said, "Yeah, I know Dr. Esselstyn. I just read his book." And then he says, "Well that's the guy! That's the guy that did the surgery on me, that fixed my parathyroid and made my kidney stones go away. Oh my god, that's great, da da da..."
Brian Wendel:
It was really funny. My dad would probably not say this, but it wasn't long after this discovery by him that he adopted a plant-based diet himself. And he's absolutely thriving now. He's 80 years old and plays tennis all the time and hikes. He had high blood pressure for many years. Literally went away in a month. And so Dr. Esselstyn came to the rescue again. But I think the fact that I was doing this film, and Dr. Esselstyn was a part of it, all of a sudden I had the street cred.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right. Right. Help legitimize it.
Brian Wendel:
What I had been telling him for so many years actually had credibility. So he went ahead and ultimately adopted the diet. Him and his wife went all in, and they were off their blood pressure meds pretty quickly.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Well, your dad must be so, just, proud of what you've done with Forks Over Knives and the empire that you've created here over the last decade.
Brian Wendel:
Yeah, he's been very supportive all along. It's funny, for many years he would always accuse me of being too much of an advocate. Preaching, which I don't think I ever was, or am now. But now, all of a sudden, he can't spend five minutes with somebody without starting to go off on plant-based. So it's been a pretty interesting journey.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, it has a tendency to get under your skin. Especially when you feel as passionate about it as you and I do. Is there a term that you use with somebody that maybe is inquiring, "Brian, how do you eat?" Do you say, are you plant-based? What do you say?
Brian Wendel:
I generally say I'm whole-food plant-based, but sometimes I even say whole-food vegan. Because I don't eat any animal products at all, and I eat predominantly whole food. So I say, usually, whole-food plant-based is my diet and lifestyle.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, yeah. So I'd love to transition right now to all the different kind of ancillaries, if you don't mind talking about it, that you've created since the film came out. How many books have you done, how many other documentaries have you done? Stuff like that.
Brian Wendel:
So we've done, now we have five books out. It's interesting. After the film came out, I thought I was going to be done with this and I thought I was going to go back to real estate. We put a book out... It's funny, because in the early screenings people were saying, "Wow, this is really convincing. What do I do?" So we literally, working with Gene Stone, who you know very well as a writer...
Rip Esselstyn:
He was on the podcast a couple weeks ago!
Brian Wendel:
There you go. Great guy. I said, "Can you help us put a book out in just a few months? Because the movie's coming out soon." And he said, "Yeah, I'll do it." I think he even helped us find an independent publisher called The Experiment.
Rip Esselstyn:
That's right.
Brian Wendel:
We put this book out and I literally, Rip, I had a projection we were going to sell 15,000 copies of the book. That was my projection. The book makes #1 on the New York Times best seller list.
Rip Esselstyn:
For how many weeks in a row?
Brian Wendel:
It was on the best seller list for almost a year. It was ridiculous. We just realized that the film made the case for a whole-food plant-based lifestyle, and it's ability to prevent and reverse disease. But we didn't do a lot of the how-to, namely because we didn't feel like we had the time to. We wanted to keep the film as focused as we can, but there was a big, big thirst out there for the how-to.
Brian Wendel:
So we came out with first book, then we came out with the cookbook a year later. That spent another year on the New York Times best seller list.
Rip Esselstyn:
And that's the book that Chef Del Sroufe... right?
Brian Wendel:
Chef Del Sroufe, yep.
Rip Esselstyn:
Has that book sold over a million copies, can you say?
Brian Wendel:
Yeah, it's about in that range.
Rip Esselstyn:
That's crazy!
Brian Wendel:
It started really well. Yeah, so away we went. I thought I was going to go back to real estate. We had a very rudimentary website at the time, and literally, it was just me and a guy named Robbie Barbera. At different times we had additional support, we were just scrapping it together. I was the editor-in-chief, Robbie was doing the newsletter, I was doing the social media... Just scrapping it together. Then as time went by, we ended up making a bigger investment in our website in 2014. Then ultimately started on products.
Brian Wendel:
I think we started with the mobile app, which today is, I think, one of the top selling mobile apps. Paid food and drink on iOS, as well on Google Play. Did the mobile apps, we did the cooking school shortly thereafter that. Ultimately, we went to subscription meal planner. Line of food products, then made our way to the magazine just couple years ago, which is a partnership with Meredith Corporation, which is now one of the top selling food and health magazines in the country.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow. So did they come to you? How did that relationship start?
Brian Wendel:
They actually came to us. At the time, this is before the merger with Time, they owned all the brands that they work on. So they would buy a brand, bring it in-house, or they created the brand from scratch. But in our case they said, "Look, we want to try a new program where we partner with third-party brands. We've done some research and you look like you'd be the perfect fit."
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow.
Brian Wendel:
So literally they came to us and we put out an experimental magazine, and it was a smash hit. Not knowing it was going to be a hit, the idea was to do one magazine and see how it goes, but it takes a long time to put together a magazine. We couldn't come out with a second magazine for another year. Then we came out with a second one and that did really well. Eventually we turned it into a quarterly, and now we do five issues a year with them.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow.
Brian Wendel:
It's been a really great partnership that we have with them.
Rip Esselstyn:
How much work is that for you and your team?
Brian Wendel:
It's a lot. I mean, the magazines are not easy. But we have a wonderful editor-in-chief, Liz Turner, and she really does a lot of the content. Darshana does a fair amount of the recipes. They have their own test kitchen, too, so Meredith does a lot of the recipes. So the work is divvied up, but it's a fair amount. Certainly the content part falls on us.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow. If you don't mind, let's go back. There was the first that came out with the movie, Forks Over Knives. Then you had the Forks Over Knives cookbook. Then you had, was it The Forks Over Knives Plan?
Brian Wendel:
The third book was The Forks Over Knives Plan, that's right. Then the fourth book was Forks Over Knives Family, and then Forks Over Knives Favor.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right, right, right. Wow. That's quite the compilation there. And man, let's not forget... I think it was 2013, we had Forks Over Knives Presents: The Engine 2 Kitchen Rescue.
Brian Wendel:
That's right. We had a lot of fun with that.
Rip Esselstyn:
Remember, we had that little 15 minutes documentary that we did on Netflix?
Brian Wendel:
Uh-huh (affirmative), that's right. The Engine 2 Kitchen Rescue, that's right. The Engine 2 Kitchen Rescue.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, yeah. That thing's still chugging along a little bit.
Brian Wendel:
I don't think people realize what an important part you played in Forks. We didn't really talk about the advanced screenings, but it's worth just pointing out that you were a major, major partner in bringing that to life. Just for your audience to know, before we actually came out with the film, we wanted to prove that this concept had legs at the theaters. Because theaters weren't going to just put us in. We didn't have big names attached to it or anything.
Brian Wendel:
But ultimately we partnered with Whole Foods and Whip to do about 20 to 30 advanced screenings across the country. They turned out that they were wild successes, to the point where people couldn't get into most of them. And generally a lot of excitement about the film, especially on social media. Because we weren't screening the film that much, but the people that were going to see it were very excited about it.
Brian Wendel:
And Rip was a healthy eating ambassador for Whole Foods. You, Rip. And you would do all these Q&A's for us. So people would come to the movie theater, sponsored by Whole Foods, marketed by Whole Foods... Come to the theaters, you would generally be the person doing to the Q&A. Or it would be a panel. Many times I was on the panel as well. And it was quite an experience. We did this for about six months, and it generated the momentum for us to actually be able to do a theatrical release in the long term.
Brian Wendel:
After the advanced screening produce we then did a one-theater release in Portland, which was wildly successful. Then based on that and the success of the advanced screenings that we did with you, we were able to get the attentions of the theater owners, and to be able to launch in theaters. Even after that, you were still very helpful to our effort, participating still in a lot of Q&A's where and when we had them. So we're certainly indebted for your support, really from day one.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, thanks Brian. It was quite the team effort between Engine 2, Whole Foods, Forks Over Knives... When you have a lot of different entities that are pulling in the same direction, it's really amazing what you can get done. Let's give a nod of the cap to Charlene Nolan, who helped us with that first blueprint model in... Can you remember the name of that theater?
Brian Wendel:
The Bryn Mawr Theater in suburban Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Yeah. I mean, you were there and I wasn't actually there. But that was really our first advanced screening with you guys. And Char Nolan... It just shows you the power that an individual can make in their community, and how they can actually go on and launch something bigger. But she had seen a test screening of Forks at a Whole Foods immersion in Austin, and she decided that she was so excited by this that she wanted to do a screening at a theater in suburban Pennsylvania, where she was the marketing person for one of the stores out there.
Brian Wendel:
Anyways, so she arranged all this but she went all in and put together this amazing effort. Brought you out to the theater, and you also visited a bunch of fire stations. Marketed the heck out of it. And this was not a small theater, this is one of these old indie theaters that have 500 seats, or something like that. I wasn't there, but I get a call from Charlene. "Brian, you're not going to believe this but they are lined up down the street to get in to see the film."
Rip Esselstyn:
It was awesome. Yeah. She even put together a special VIP dinner for people that I was at. She had me get into a fire engine. We went around the block, and then they rolled out the red carpet, and I came down the red carpet. All this to-do, but it ended up being a great first blueprint for the model. Wow.
Brian Wendel:
And literally, just to finish the point for your audience, is literally we made our best practices based on what Char did. That's what helped us do it in all these other Whole Foods, and really replicating the success. And again, helping with the whole Engine, of its own, was really amazing.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. So you mentioned earlier, and I didn't know this... So you're engaged to Darshana!
Brian Wendel:
Yes! I'm so excited, I can't even tell you. Which is kind of fun, but we've known each other for 18 years.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow.
Brian Wendel:
We were friends for nine years, and then we started as a couple romantically in 2012. So we've had a commitment to each other for life long before this, but we decided, "Hey, let's just formally tie the knot now." So I am one very lucky man.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow. Good for you. Well, you're a lucky man because you have Darshana and you also have her cooking.
Brian Wendel:
That's right. And for your audience, she's an extraordinary whole-food plant-based chef. She's the Forks Over Knives chef and culinary project manager, and some of you people who get recipes off our website, or have seen our recipes in our books, may be familiar with her. But she is absolutely extraordinary.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow. Now Brian, for our listeners, you're in LA. Right?
Brian Wendel:
That's right, yes.
Rip Esselstyn:
So when you and Darshana are looking to go out, take a little break from cooking, what are some restaurants that you like to go to?
Brian Wendel:
We are pretty boring. So we have a Thai restaurant near us called Star of Siam. It has just wonderful fresh food, and they do oil free for us which we absolutely love. The other restaurant I've been going to for 20 years, called A Votre Santé, in Brentwood, California. Their soups are always oil free. They do some of their other dishes oil free. The have a wonderful vegan tostada, where they don't fry the... What do you call it? The bowl, the tostada.
Brian Wendel:
So those are our two places that we go to pretty regularly.
Rip Esselstyn:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). So you're not a fan, or you don't go to Crossroads that much?
Brian Wendel:
We do. Occasionally, we do have our nights where we go and we're not totally whole-food plant-based. And we do enjoy Crossroads on occasion. We like Matthew Kenney restaurants as well. He has a place called Plant Food + Wine, and another place called Sestina that he just opened up that's really nice. And there's pasta places. But those are our treat night, our treat and cheat nights out.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right. How often does that happen, usually? Once a week?
Brian Wendel:
No, not once a week. Maybe once, month to month, we really treat ourselves.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow. Okay. So tell me this. How many of the Wendel family, meaning your mom, your dad... You have a brother or two, right?
Brian Wendel:
Yeah, so basically my dad, his wife... Actually my dad, my stepmother, my brothers are both plant-based. So it's pretty well ensconced in our family. My mom, still working on her. I think she respects the lifestyle, but she has a hard time with it. I'm always trying to nudge her, but anybody with family can tell you it's not... Family can be toughest sometimes.
Rip Esselstyn:
Isn't that crazy? I mean, look at all the success you've had, the science that's behind it. And yet sometimes the people that are closest to us, we have the hardest time helping. Right?
Brian Wendel:
Yeah. That's absolutely true. Some people can't get anybody in their family to go, so I feel lucky that I got a couple of my family members. And you, it's a family business.
Rip Esselstyn:
It's a family affair, it is. It is. It's cool. So are there any exciting projects on the horizon that you want to share with us, or you've got your plate full with everything you've got going on right now?
Brian Wendel:
We've got our plate pretty full. I mean, we have our projects and they're in the works, but we're not ready to come out with them yet.
Rip Esselstyn:
Got it. Got it. Would you ever consider doing another documentary?
Brian Wendel:
No.
Rip Esselstyn:
I love it!
Brian Wendel:
I loved doing Forks though, don't get me wrong, but it's a... Well first of all, the followup docs that came after Forks have done an amazing job of followup, if you will. I mean, certainly you were a big part of Game Changers. And what a great concept. I remember James Wilks came to me in 2012 with this idea, and I just absolutely loved it from the get-go. We even talked about it as a forest project, potentially. Ultimately decided not to, but I felt very good with what they were going to do.
Brian Wendel:
And I loved the way that you guys, you and James and Joseph Pace, so many other people. I just love the approach that you guys took in that film. I think to have an effective documentary, you've really got to make it positive. Otherwise... You want to make it so that it's something that people want to join. And I think that Game Changers really did that.
Brian Wendel:
Let's face it. Plant-based diet has been a very female thing, and lot of times they're bringing it home to their man, if you will. But there really was a need in the marketplace for someone to really go after the male audience. And you guys just hit it out of the park. So I feel like a lot of it's just been done so well, and I certainly think that films like Cowspiracy and Seaspiracy... Those films don't necessarily cover the health angle like Forks did, but nonetheless these other broader issues are very important reasons to eat plant-based.
Brian Wendel:
So I'm very happy in my world, just doing what I can do to help get the whole-food plant-based message out there any way I can. I don't see how another film at this point in time is really going to advance that message. So I have a saying, never say never, but it's certainly not at the fork.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right. You've been a spectacular mentor for people like Kip Anderson and James Wilks and Joseph Pace, and a lot of these up-and-coming documentary makers. So you paved the way. You were a game changer.
Brian Wendel:
Thank you, Rip, it's an honor that you would say that. Rip, I just feel so blessed that I had the opportunity and the means to be able to do it. I always say this, and I really mean this from the bottom of my heart. Forks helped popularize the message, but we did not invent that message. Literally decades of work by people like your dad, by people like John McDougall, by people like Colin Campbell. So at the end of the day, I feel like I stand on their shoulders. I really do.
Brian Wendel:
I'm also happy for them personally, too, because when I talk to them there's a certain satisfaction that they get. That this word is, the ball is moving forward in a significant way. So just a lot of gratitude to those guys at the end of the day.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Well thanks for saying that. I know, from spending enough time with Colin and my father, that what this documentary did too, was it helped illuminate literally the decades that these guys were putting their shoulder to the grindstone. When everybody told them they were crazy, they were nuts, but they held tight to their conviction because they knew they had the truth. Right? And the science.
Rip Esselstyn:
So what a beautiful thing, for you to be able to shine that spotlight on their work. And then have it be recognized when typically, nobody would ever know about it.
Brian Wendel:
I would just add that it's easy today to be a plant-based doctor. Even if it's not a majority position in the medical community, it's certainly accepted. But those guys literally had to stand... Really, standing against the grain is not an easy thing to do. It's something I see over and over again. When a person can stand against the grain, stand against their colleagues and peers, and being able to withstand the criticism and the mockery and all that stuff. That's where a real person's character shines.
Brian Wendel:
And they did it. Those were the pioneers. Those were the guys that had to kind of do those things, for us to be able to get to where we are today.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yep. Absolutely. So Brian, let me end with this because I think it's kind of fun. Two things. One, why Forks Over Knives as the name, and how hard or easy was it to come up with that name? And then, on the poster, you have the hand with the fork and then you have the knife. Or is it a knife? What is it?
Brian Wendel:
It's scalpel. And I think we once ran something on social media, and 95% of the people think that you eat vegetables with a fork and that you would cut steak with a knife or something? Which was absolutely never the intention of what we had. You know what it is. It's really Forks Over Knives. The knives are scalpels, and the idea was that if you eat right, you can avoid going under the knife. Which is really a metaphor, broadly speaking, for the medical system. Obviously medicine is very important, but for unnecessary medical procedures that can be avoided with how you eat.
Brian Wendel:
But the very quick story on that is, it was very hard to come up with the name. And it wasn't until we were, really, in the test screening process that we did finally come up with the name. And oh my god. The number of things that we tied our list from, I think every combination of words you could think of was in the running.
Brian Wendel:
Then, really late in the ballgame, I sent an email out to my friends. And one of my friends, a veterinarian named Armaiti, Dr. Armaiti May, she emailed me back. I said, "I can't come up with a title. Just come up, and say anything. Don't worry about if it's good, bad or whatever." And she sent back "Fork Over Scalpel," and then I said, "Fork Over Knife?" Then I went, Forks Over Knives. And the minute I had the idea, it was like, "That's it."
Brian Wendel:
I also thought about the imagery of a fork and a hand, and it was when I put the imagery to the words, I was like, "This is it." I was in Lake Tahoe, I was with my dad at the time, I ran the title by him. "Terrible title. Forks Over Knives?"
Rip Esselstyn:
Thanks, dad.
Brian Wendel:
I ran it by my team. "Horrible title. What does it even mean?"
Brian Wendel:
"Yeah, but we can have this fork in the hand, and..." It's funny because it means something now, it makes sense. But at the time I had to do a lot of convincing. And I think I had one ally on my team, our co-producer Allison Boon liked it from the get-go. But it honestly wasn't a hard sell after a couple of days. I just kept pushing it and pushing it, and the team got more and more on board with it. But it really wasn't until very late in the process that we actually had a title for the film.
Rip Esselstyn:
That's interesting. So, against the advice of your father and most of your team, you felt that it was the right name and you convinced them that, "Hey, this is how it's going to be."
Brian Wendel:
Yeah, exactly. I wasn't against their advice, it was more like the early opposition. Because I think once I was able to really push the concept on them, then they would eventually buy in. I don't think anybody felt like, after a couple days of persuasion, that they were opposed to it. But it definitely met some early opposition.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Well, you know what, Brian? I'm so glad that you had that epiphany back in, I think it was 2006, right? To make a documentary.
Brian Wendel:
2006, yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
That you decided to follow that passion. Literally, you've changed the landscape of the plant-based movement by being a brave, courageous pioneer. And I just personally want to thank you for the contributions that you've made. You've saved a lot of people's lives, a lot of animal's lives, and you've made the planet a better place.
Brian Wendel:
Thank you so much. That means so much coming from you, I really appreciate it. And thanks for all the wonderful work you do, and have done, and all the help that you've given us over the years. We really, really appreciate it. It's been an effort.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Well thanks so much, Brian, for joining me on the PLANTSTRONG Podcast. It's been a real treat and I look forward to seeing you the next time I'm out in LA.
Brian Wendel:
Awesome, Rip, look forward to it.
Rip Esselstyn:
Hey, follow after me. Peace.
Brian Wendel:
Peace.
Rip Esselstyn:
Turn it around, Engine 2...
Brian Wendel:
Engine 2.
Rip Esselstyn:
Keep it PLANTSTRONG.
Brian Wendel:
Keep it PLANTSTRONG.
Rip Esselstyn:
Hit me up. All right. Thanks Brian.
Brian Wendel:
Thank you, Rip.
Rip Esselstyn:
If it's the right time for you, I would encourage you to watch, or re-watch, Forks Over Knives to truly appreciate the documentary and the journey that you have been on. The lesson of this film is one of hope. You have so much more control over your health than what any of us realize. You can have health by choice, not by chance. And one simple change at the end of your fork can prevent so many chronic lifestyle diseases, and hopefully keep you from ever going under the knife.
Rip Esselstyn:
Thanks for listening, and I'll see you again next week. As always, visit plantstrongpodcast.com for resources on this episode and all things PLANTSTRONG.
Rip Esselstyn:
Thank you for listening to the PLANTSTRONG Podcast. You can support the show by taking a quick minute to follow us, wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Leaving us a positive review and sharing the show with your network is another great way to help us reach as many people as possible with the exciting news about plants. Thank you in advance for your support. It means everything. Have you had your own Galileo moment that you'd like to share? What happened when you stepped into the arena and shed the beliefs that you thought to be true? I'd love to hear about it. Visit plantstrongpodcast.com to submit your story, and to learn more about today's guests and sponsors.
Rip Esselstyn:
The PLANTSTRONG Podcast team includes Carrie Barrett, Laurie Kortowich, Ami Mackey, Patrick Gavin, and Wade Clark. This season is dedicated to all those courageous truth seekers who weren't afraid to look through the lens with clear vision, and hold firm to a higher truth. Most notably, my parents Dr. Caldwell B. Esselstyn, Jr. and Ann Crile Esselstyn. Thanks for listening.
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