#82: Kathy Freston - Leaning into Plants...Unapologetically
If there’s one person who has put a face on the vegan lifestyle, it would have to be Kathy Freston. Kathy has written nine books including the popular Veganist, The Lean, and Clean Protein, and she’s been an outspoken plant-based proponent in the mainstream media for many years - including popular appearances on Ellen, Oprah, Good Morning America, and The View.
Her new book written with last week’s podcast guest, Gene Stone, is called 72 Reasons to Be Vegan and we continue this conversation in her usual approachable and attainable way. And, that’s what we love about Kathy. Her philosophy is ‘progress over perfection’ because, let’s face it, no one is perfect - and we’re all on a journey towards making ourselves better humans.
In this episode, Kathy and Rip touch on numerous topics, including:
Her personal journey to veganism
What it was like to work with Oprah
Why cow’s milk so gross?
The value of seeking progress over perfection and leaning into this lifestyle
Why Beans are So Healthy
Who will benefit from reading and sharing 72 Reasons to Be Vegan?
Why this book is such a wonderful resource for advocacy
72 Reasons to Be Vegan is an extension of the work that she has been doing for years and, judging by her enthusiasm, and her inner and outer beauty, she won’t be stopping anytime soon.
Episode and PLANTSTRONG Resources:
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Kathy Freston is the New York Times bestselling author of The Lean: A Revolutionary (and Simple!) 30-Day Plan for Healthy, Lasting Weight Loss, Veganist: Lose Weight, Get Healthy, Change the World, The Quantum Wellness Cleanse: The 21 Day Essential Guide to Healing Your Body, Mind, and Spirit, and Quantum Wellness: A Practical and Spiritual Guide to Health and Happiness. Freston has appeared frequently on national television.
Freston's book, The Lean: A Revolutionary (and Simple!) 30-Day Plan for Healthy, Lasting Weight Loss, was named one of VegNews' "Top 12 Vegan Books of 2012."
Kathy started a petition titled "It's Time For A Healthy, Meatless Option (Please!)" that has received over 200k signatures to get McDonald's to offer vegan options. With many news outlets such as CNN, USA Today and Business Insider weighing in on the issue.
Freston took part in The Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine's Vegetarian Caucus luncheon on Capitol Hill to raise awareness among congressional staff about the health and nutrition benefits of a plant-based lifestyle. Freston was part of the Caucus that helped to "provide oral testimony at the 2015 USDA Dietary Guidelines meetings on January 14. At this meeting, they each stood up and gave testimony on why animal products should be removed from USDA Dietary Guidelines, which was updated in 2015. At the Veggie Caucus, each of the speakers divulged their experiences with public health and discussed the role of the Dietary Guidelines in shaping federal nutrition recommendations and policies."
Full Transcript
Kathy Freston:
Every day I get to live out my values and I have pretty basic values, kindness, mercy, being a good steward of the planet. I get to every day that I eat this way. I get to practice what internally makes me feel good. There's a contentedness that I have that I never experienced before.
Rip Esselstyn:
Season Three of the Plant-Strong Podcast explores those Galileo moments where you seek to understand the real truth around your health, and dare to see the world through a different lens. This season, we honor those courageous seekers who are paving the way for you and me. Grab your telescope, point it towards your future, and let's get Plant-Strong together.
Rip Esselstyn:
Welcome to another episode of the Plant-Strong Podcast. I'm your host, Rip Esselstyn. If there's one person who has put a face on the vegan lifestyle, it would have to be today's guest, Kathy Freston. Kathy has written nine books, including the popular Veganist, The Lean, and Clean Protein among many of them.
Rip Esselstyn:
She's been an outspoken plant-based proponent in the mainstream media for many years, including popular appearances on the iconic Oprah show, Ellen, Good Morning America, and The View just to name a few. Her new book, written with last week's guest, Gene Stone, is called 72 Reasons to Be Vegan.
Rip Esselstyn:
We continue this conversation in her usual approachable and attainable way. That's what I love about Kathy. Her philosophy is progress over perfection, because let's face it, no one is perfect, and we're all on a journey towards making ourselves better humans. You'll hear this sentiment in Spades, when she shares her own moment of personal truth and evolution.
Rip Esselstyn:
If any of you have ever had a pet, I think you'll be able to relate. If you haven't met Kathy before, I know you'll respect her honesty and passion. 72 Reasons is an extension of the work that she's been doing for years. Judging by her enthusiasm, and her inner and outer beauty, she won't be stopping anytime soon. Welcome, Kathy Freston.
Rip Esselstyn:
Kathy Freston, it is so good to see you. It's been a couple of years. You have some exciting stuff going on right now. But before we talk about the new book that you just came out with just a couple days ago, I want to take a step back for a sec and talk about well, first, you have been an icon in the vegan plant based movement for a long time right now. A lot of the people that are coming up now pushing plants I think it's fair to say are standing on your shoulders, and just want to appreciate you for everything that you've done, because it is quite a commitment.
Rip Esselstyn:
I mean, if I'm not mistaken, Kathy, and correct me if I'm wrong, you have written, what, seven books. Is this your seventh?
Kathy Freston:
Ninth.
Rip Esselstyn:
Ninth, oh, my goodness gracious. Have you always loved to write? Is this something that you ...
Kathy Freston:
I've always loved to write. It's funny, Rip, because I was thinking about is like, "At this point, I don't know what else I ... this is what I know how to do. I just know how to write." I think, "Oh, it'd be such an exciting time to be an entrepreneur in the plant-based world," and like yourself and create a company. I'm like, "You know what? The truth is, I know how to write. It's what I love doing. I'm an introvert. I get to be at home and do all my research and think about stuff. It's just what I do." But, yeah, I write.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Well, you and I, we ... Well, the first time we met was you were doing the red carpet interviews at the Forks Over Knives premiere in LA.
Kathy Freston:
Yeah. That's right. For Ellen.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Yeah.
Kathy Freston:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
My father and I came down and you interviewed us and it was really an honor for me to meet you that first time. The second time was in Fremont. We were both doing the TED Talks there.
Kathy Freston:
Yes. That's right.
Rip Esselstyn:
That [Anil Gathani 00:05:02] had put together. We were in the back room afterwards. I came up to you and we were talking. I was like, "You've got to meet this guy, Gene Stone. He's helped me with some of my books. He's this great guy." I don't know if you remember or not, but I connected you two and you guys met. I think it was in New York, maybe a couple months later.
Kathy Freston:
That's right. Then we got along like a house on fire.
Rip Esselstyn:
That was right.
Kathy Freston:
We haven't worked together until now. But we got along so well. I remember we met, I think it was at an Indian restaurant. We just sat down and those instantaneous friendships, it's just like, "I'm going to tell you my deepest secrets." We would just talk and talk and talk and he became one of my very best friends and is to this day, so thank you for that.
Rip Esselstyn:
No. Yeah. Well, looks what's coming that you guys wrote this spectacular book.
Kathy Freston:
Thank you.
Rip Esselstyn:
72 Reasons to Be Vegan: Why Plant-Based, period. Why Now, period. Not question marks, period.
Kathy Freston:
Yep. Yep.
Rip Esselstyn:
That's notable.
Kathy Freston:
Exactly.
Rip Esselstyn:
Then we also talked about cooking and pots and pans, and you had some extra pots and pans. You were so ...
Kathy Freston:
Oh, my gosh. That's right. I had this whole set that somebody gave me that I wasn't going to ... given my kitchen was only so big.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Kathy Freston:
You're like, "I could use a new set." Yeah. That's right.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, there's so many times that you have that conversation and somebody says, "Oh, yeah, I'll mail those to you." They never mail them. Like a week later there, they were from Kathy, for us, I'm like, "Oh, my gosh. What an angel. Absolute angel."
Kathy Freston:
I love it. I love it when all the good stuff comes around. It's just you took care of me, introduced me to Gene and just ran into each other. It's wonderful. Our community is pretty great.
Rip Esselstyn:
It goes back to one of your books, Expect a Miracle.
Kathy Freston:
Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.
Rip Esselstyn:
2004, you wrote that, something like that?
Kathy Freston:
Yeah. I'm a very different person than I was when I wrote that book. But because back then, I don't know, it was a very ... I don't know, very spiritual book, I guess about relationships and everything. But I still I love the sentiment of expecting a miracle. Like, "Just expect something crazy wonderful to come out of the blue. Prepare yourself for it, because why not, and then something happens. You wake up one day, and your life is different."
Rip Esselstyn:
No. I haven't read that book. But tell me this, because Expect a Miracle, I like it. But to me, you also have to ... you have to do something to make that miracle happen. You can't just sit on your ass.
Kathy Freston:
Totally. It's like, "Expect a miracle, basically, put your intention out and then become the person who could show up for something great happening. Work on yourself." That's exactly the whole point of the thing is like, "We can't just sit here and imagine something, I imagined I'm going to have a red Corvette or whatever." It's just like, "Set your intention, but then do the work to become the person who when you meet that potential in the road, you're ready for it."
Rip Esselstyn:
I mean, look at you. I mean, you have gotten miracles. Look at you've written now, what, nine books. With each book, I'm sure you put it out into the universe, and gives back to you in strong way.
Kathy Freston:
Yeah. It really does.
Rip Esselstyn:
It really does.
Kathy Freston:
Yeah. It really does.
Rip Esselstyn:
There's a certain amount is you and I both know, vulnerability and putting something that you've worked so hard out there.
Kathy Freston:
Well, I tell you, that's a big thing for me, because as someone who's more introverted, the big part of the book is promotion, and getting out there and talking about it. In you, it's like a baby. I want this baby to do well. I want this baby to thrive in life. You are vulnerable. It's like, "This is the work that I spent the last year doing, and I really hope you like it. I really hope it connects."
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, for example, when you wrote Quantum Wellness. Then tell me if this is right, but somehow you put it out there, and I think a miracle happened you got on Oprah and then Oprah and her whole staff decided to do your quantum wellness program, 30-day program?
Kathy Freston:
Yeah. The cleanse.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. I mean, did you ever see that coming from or did it just ...
Kathy Freston:
No.
Rip Esselstyn:
No?
Kathy Freston:
No. Absolutely not. My publisher just called and called and called. It's not really a miracle like it came out of the blue. He was calling, calling, calling. I guess he put on enough pressure. But God bless her. She had me on. The thing was she had a whole slew of producers. They said, "Whatever you do, do not talk about the vegan stuff."
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Kathy Freston:
Because the book, Quantum Wellness, is about a lot of things. It was about relationships and meditation and doing a cleanse, which happened to be vegan and all of this stuff. But some of it was about the ethics of eating animal foods. She had been sued by the meat industry for saying something as blunt as "Uh, I'm never going to eat another burger again." They came after her. I think she spent probably a year in court fighting the meat industry, because they said that she libeled them.
Kathy Freston:
She ended up winning, and she came out victorious. But I think it was probably pretty traumatizing. I mean, she had to be ... I think it was in Texas, wasn't it?
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh, it was. It was the Texas Cattlemen, I think, Association.
Kathy Freston:
That's right. That's right. She had spent a lot of time in Texas, which I'm sure that part is great. But you're away from home, and all of that stuff. Her producers were like, "She doesn't want to go near that conversation." I was prepared to talk about meditation, and relationships and all of that stuff. I was not going to breathe a word. It's like, "Oprah doesn't want you to talk about something. You're not going to talk about something."
Kathy Freston:
Then Oprah being Oprah, first we did a radio show. She had a radio show. I arrived the night before we did the radio show. Then the next day, we taped the TV show. I did the radio show first, and I'm ready to talk. She zeroes right in on, "Tell me what's wrong with eating eggs?" I was like, "Well, isn't it really cruel, are eggs really cruel?" I was like, "Okay, Oprah's asking me this stuff. I'm going to show up."
Kathy Freston:
I really had no idea that this was going to be ... and then she got super excited about the whole thing. On the TV show, she wanted to do the cleanse. Then people followed along for 30 days. It's one of those things that just took off. That changed the course of my writing because I really became someone who was much more writing about veganism and plant-based foods.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right. Then your next book was Veganish.
Kathy Freston:
Yeah. Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Then Clean Protein ...
Kathy Freston:
Yep. Yep.
Rip Esselstyn:
Which is so fantastic that people just don't understand that the cleanest, best, strongest protein comes from plants.
Kathy Freston:
It's the best. I love the way that you talk about it as an athlete, as a dude that wants to be strong. It's like, "No." I love the way you say Plant-Strong, because this stuff makes you ... I just did an interview, actually, right before this. The guy interviewing me, I think, he was probably an older gentleman. He said, "I worry about going vegan because I worry about not having enough energy. I'm going to lose muscle tone and everything."
Kathy Freston:
I was like, "Oh, my God. Have you seen the athletes? I mean, they're world famous athletes and people such as yourself, just rocking this lifestyle and showing that you have so much more energy. It's just the opposite of what people used to think." Even 20 years ago, people were thinking it was a very wimpy diet. It's just like, "No. The super athletes in the world are eating this way because it is so powerful."
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Season three of the Plant-Strong Podcast, we're diving in to understanding people like yourself, or scientists or doctors. What was their Galileo moment, or their "aha" moment where they were like, "You know what? I can't eat animals any longer. I can't do dairy." I mean, plants somehow appeared before you. The truth was unveiled, and it changed your trajectory. When did that happen to you? Why are you vegan?
Kathy Freston:
Well, that was probably a little over 17 years ago. I've been vegan for about 16 years. About 17 plus years ago, I had written a lot on relationships and spirituality and how to wake up and your life so that you are your best self. I realized that I had not really given food much thought. I did never really looked under the hood at how food is produced. I grew up in Doraville, Georgia, small city in Georgia, and I ate everything.
Kathy Freston:
I haven't think twice about it. I had chicken fried steak. My dad would throw a steak on the grill once a week. I had my smoothie. You want to hear what my protein smoothie was back then?
Rip Esselstyn:
I love to. Yes.
Kathy Freston:
It was milk, and a little bit of juice, a raw egg and fruit. That was my protein smoothie. How did I not die? How?
Rip Esselstyn:
I don't know. Let me interject for a sec, because I think this is great. I want you to continue on with that story. Let's not forget your journey. But you mentioned milk as the first thing. I'm imagining that's cow's milk, right?
Kathy Freston:
Yeah. Sure.
Rip Esselstyn:
One of your chapters in your new book, 72 Reasons to Be Vegan, is basically how cow's milk is gross. I would say it's more than gross. It's severely gross.
Kathy Freston:
Yeah. It's gnarly.
Rip Esselstyn:
What's wrong with milk?
Kathy Freston:
Okay. Milk is from a lactating mother. It's the fluid to give her baby or baby calf, baby person, whatever so that that little being can put on a lot of weight and develop and all that stuff. Here in the modern world, babies are weaned off of mother's milk at one, maybe two, maybe beyond that, but pretty much not beyond two.
Kathy Freston:
The idea that we would drink the fluid as adults of another cow, say, I just had a baby. I didn't. But just say I just had a baby. Too late for that. I've been pumping my milk, and I have some extra milk and I call you up and I say, "Hey, Rip, I have all this extra milk. I'm going to make an Alfredo sauce from it. Do you want to come over, you and your wife want to come over and have some pasta and with my milk in Alfredo sauce?" You'd be like, "Hell, no."
Rip Esselstyn:
Not today. Not today. Maybe another time, Kathy.
Kathy Freston:
It's gnarly. But why we would drink the milk from a lactating cow, a different species at least, you know me I'm taking a shower. I'm eating well. I'm happy, healthy, well person. But we're eating dairy and drinking milk from this cow that basically has been impregnated unnaturally. When people say, "Oh, milk, at least is natural." I'm like, "Ah, somebody shoved his arm up a cow's, you know what, with a handful of sperm from a bowl that they jerked off and delivered it into this cow. I mean, it's the most unnatural, sad, sad thing I've ever thought of."
Kathy Freston:
Then this cow becomes pregnant and she has to be constantly giving milk, constantly giving milk. She's impregnated over and over and over again. She's standing on concrete, and she's got stuff hooked up to her teats. The stress of that and the relentless milking, after years, she often gets a very painful infection called mastitis, which is super painful and could be fatal to cows.
Kathy Freston:
Because of that infection, when you get infection, you have pus. I mean, that's what the body does is all these cells and it's really pusy. Milk very often is contaminated with pus, and blood. I mean, it's pretty disgusting. Of course, they pasteurize it and sterilize it and all of that stuff. But I don't care how much sterilizing they do. There's blood and pus in that book at some point. I'm not interested.
Kathy Freston:
It really is gross. But we try to talk about things in the book in very not traumatizing way. We don't want to traumatize anyone, not too many details, just really short little chapters. When I say a chapter, I mean a page or two. Just like, "Here's the point about this, just keep that in your mind." Then you realize, "Oh my God, I'm drinking a glass full of poison basically."
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Yeah. Let me just say that this is ... it's adorable. It is these delicious bite-sized chapters. I've been carrying it in my rear pocket when I drive, when I go, and at the dinner table. We read three chapters yesterday. Each one of the children read one, and on my night side table now. But it is anyway, you and Gene did a fantastic job with that book.
Kathy Freston:
Thank you.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Kathy Freston:
It's like you know all this stuff. This is a great example. This book is not only for people who are curious. They've heard the word vegan or plant-based. I'm like, "What's it all about? I mean, is that the same thing as keto." It's for those people who are interested. But it's also for people like you and me, or people who are already plant-based that they're getting questions all the time. I don't know about you, Rip.
Kathy Freston:
But sometimes you feel as a vegan or a plant strong person, you have to be a walking database of the statistics and numbers and all of that stuff. When people start asking me, "Well, why exactly shouldn't I have meat for climate change? What does that have to do with it?" It's for people who are already there. But it's just like, "Give this to your friends and family when they're asking this. How about the protein, or what's wrong with eating cheese, or what about fish? I'm a pescatarian."
Kathy Freston:
It's like, "Here's the book. It just answers everything. There's the facts." It's good for people like us who are advocates of this lifestyle. I think, because a lot of your followers and certainly, my people, they're already there, but they needed a good tool for advocacy.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yes. I want to definitely hit on some of the 72. But I'd love for you to go back to your journey, in this crazy smoothie with the milk and the egg.
Kathy Freston:
Yeah. That's right. Okay. In fact that I didn't die of salmonella is very impressive, eating raw eggs like that on a daily basis. But youth, right? Anyway, I ate everything under the sun. I didn't think twice about it. My mother was a great mother. My dad was not a mean guy because he's doing steak and I went out with friends. There's nothing unusual about it. Wait, what did I tell you ... Okay.
Kathy Freston:
I'm having this thought, and I'm playing with my dog, Lhotse, at the time, I started realizing all of this stuff, but it's in the back of my mind. I didn't do anything about it. One day, I was about 17 and a half years ago, I'm playing with my dog, Lhotse, and she's on her back. When dogs kick up their little feet and I could swear she was smiling. I thought to myself, "Oh, I just love animals. They're just so wonderful."
Kathy Freston:
This little voice inside of me said, "Well, if you love animals so much, why are you eating them?" I guess it was the voice of my conscience. That I was like, "Oh, crap. That's like the ultimate Inconvenient truth." I just did this thought experiment as I sat there with my dog, Lhotse, and I knew her so well. She's not with me anymore, because that was a long time ago. But I knew what made her anxious, what made her scared. I knew what made her happy. I knew what made her shake. I would do anything to keep this dog from suffering in any way.
Kathy Freston:
I just was so protective of her. I just loved her so much. I started doing this thought experiment of what if she was in the slaughter line, because really, we know there's no difference between a dog and a pig, or a dog and a chicken, or a cow or whatever. All animals are sentient. They have feelings. They can anticipate. They have fear. They can smell. They know what's going on. They're putting the pieces together.
Kathy Freston:
I started picturing my dog, Lhotse, in the slaughter line, and how terrified she would be. I thought, "Oh my God. This is what animals are going through on a daily basis." Billions and I would be like, "Now and now and now and now and animal, a lovely animal is going through that right now." I don't mean to be rude, but that is what Rip brought me into it. I just thought, "I do not want to be someone who eats animals."
Kathy Freston:
I'm like, "Okay. But I grew up eating everything. I currently eat everything. I mean, I'd eat pate, foie gras, I mean, whatever, I ate it all. How in the world am I going to not eat animal products because I eat them at least three times a day, probably the snacks too?" I thought, "I am just going to set my intention. Again, I don't know how I'm going to get there. But I'm going to lean into it. I am going to have the spirit of curiosity and adventure and see what recipes I can find and go to the grocery store. Spend a little bit more time seeing what's out there."
Kathy Freston:
"I'm just going to nudge myself along and I'm not going to pressure myself. I'm not on a timeline. I'm just going to lean into it." It took me about a year, year and a half to become fully vegan. I didn't have a timeline. But it worked out in that way because I leaned into it. I didn't stress myself out so much to do it overnight. It's stuck, because I found my footing. I got comfortable with it.
Rip Esselstyn:
You wrote a whole book on that to The Lean, the 30-day program.
Kathy Freston:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, The Lean is also about leaning into plant-based, but it's also about getting lean in your body. It's for people who are looking to lose weight.
Rip Esselstyn:
It's a good double entendre there.
Kathy Freston:
Thank you very much.
Rip Esselstyn:
What did you notice? You said you started this about 17 years ago.
Kathy Freston:
Now.
Rip Esselstyn:
What did you notice from being a three-time meat eater, including snacks to now, over the course of a year going all the way 100% vegan?
Kathy Freston:
Well, the first thing I noticed was my energy was just so much better. My nickname among my friends back then was "Slug." They called me, "Hey, Sluggy." Because I was like a slug. I was like, "Wah, let's just stay and watch a movie," or I just didn't have a lot of energy. I was just so sluggish. That changed. I mean, I just, it's probably from the fiber because it's straightening out my blood sugar. I don't have all that fat saturated that weighing me down, clogging up my arteries.
Kathy Freston:
My energy and that was, to me, having good energy is the stuff of life, because you can deal with things if you have alertness and some vitality and that was the first thing I noticed. The second thing I noticed is that my skin cleared up. I had always had bad skin. Right around here, I had pimples and, oh, is right beneath the surface and sallow I had just ... it just not good skin tone. I'm vain. I'm vain.
Rip Esselstyn:
Aren't you also a Ford model or a model, weren't you?
Kathy Freston:
I was. I got sent home from a lot of jobs. I remember I lived in Paris, and they said they would "Go really in close that, oh, [foreign language 00:27:23] is a pimple. It's a little Latin. I would get sent home and I was also too heavy to be a real editorial model. I was actually ... I thrived doing German catalog. But I was always a little heavy.
Kathy Freston:
I lost a little bit of weight. I didn't need to lose a lot. I think with plant-based food, you get to where you're supposed to be. Some people need to gain some weight. Some people need to lose some weight. Your body finds where it should be where it thrives. For me, I just needed to lose a little bit of weight. I did that. My skin cleared up. The vanity was totally ...
Rip Esselstyn:
Scored.
Kathy Freston:
Scored. Yeah. Yeah. That felt really good. But most of all, Rip, I think for me, there is something that happened that there was a numbness around my heart because I think that in order to eat animals, because by now everybody has some idea of where this stuff is coming from. You're not under a rock. You have some idea even if you really haven't investigated. There has to be a certain amount of numbness and I think I had a certain amount of numbness because I was like, "Yeah. I'll have some fogra and I'm a big steaky eater, being all macho and everything."
Kathy Freston:
What happened is once I wasn't eating animals, I didn't have to be so shut down. Something opened up. Now I feel so connected in my friendships and relationships, with people. I just feel more connected to life, because I haven't numbed myself out. That feels really good because every day I get to live out my values and I have pretty basic values, kindness, mercy, being a good steward of the planet.
Kathy Freston:
I get to every day that I eat this way I get to practice what internally makes me feel good. There's a contentedness that I have, that I never experienced before. That feels really weak.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Well, it's nice when you're living in complete alignment with your values, and living what I think is your truth which you now feel and it feels really nice.
Kathy Freston:
Yeah. It really does.
Rip Esselstyn:
We'll be right back to the interview. But first, I want to talk about cooking with ease. If you know anything about my family, you know that we love to cook simple plant strong meals. I want to virtually invite you right into our kitchen with a Plant-Strong Meal Planner. So many of my family's favorite recipes are right there for you to make for your own families, or even make together like we do.
Rip Esselstyn:
Earlier this year, we launched a special promotion. We've been really surprised at how much you've enjoyed it. For the first time, we offered a 14-day free trial to test drive our Plant-Strong Meal Planner, so that you can come in and really kick the tires before deciding if it's right for you.
Rip Esselstyn:
Exciting news, we're bringing it back so more of you can take advantage. Simply visit mealplanner.plantstrong.com today and enter the code "start fresh" to redeem your two-week trial. Check out the database filled with hundreds of recipes. See instructional cooking videos, make and save personal menus, and shop using our adaptive grocery list.
Rip Esselstyn:
You can even load and save your own recipes so this meal planner becomes your wing-man or wing-woman in the kitchen, saving you loads of time and ensuring you use up all those vegetables. Again, free trial for the first time. For a limited time, go to the Show Notes or visit mealplanner.plantstrong.com and enter the code "start fresh."
Rip Esselstyn:
Yes. You have to enter a credit card, but you won't be charged if you cancel before the trial ends. That's simply a click of a button. Enjoy the test drive and get cooking.
Rip Esselstyn:
First, let me say in preparation for this, I looked at your Instagram. It's fabulous. I just can't believe how insanely organized it is. When you look at it and the way you have your quotes and then the photos and they're all perfectly somebody ...
Kathy Freston:
It's not that hard, Rip. It's just one day is a picture. The next day, it's some writing. The next day is a picture. The next day was some ... It's not that hard.
Rip Esselstyn:
I get it. I get it. But it's for somebody like me, it's impressive looking. Just I want you to know that. But you have a quote there and this to me is very appropriate. You say, "I care less about being happy and more about living my truth."
Kathy Freston:
Yes. Yes. That's really true. I think there are people and I don't fault anyone just for having the vivaciousness of life and just wanting to taste everything and just be happy and party and all that stuff. I feel very content if I'm living my truth, if I'm being my true self, and which is probably pretty dorky, but introverted and all that stuff.
Kathy Freston:
If I'm telling the truth, and I'm having real connections, I care more about that than being in the right place, and knowing all the right people and all that stuff, and having fun. I just want to feel I have a meaningful life. I think that for me a meaningful life is having good connections with the people that I know, and having a great conversation.
Kathy Freston:
This is a really great conversation that I really appreciate. That makes me really happy. But it's a different kind of happiness. It's a contentedness. It's being in my skin.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Well, I hear your sister. I hear you ...
Kathy Freston:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
... on all that. I think it's one of the reasons why we both connect so well with Gene Stone. I mean, Gene, he's a really wonderful conversationalist. Not only does Gene have a lot of great things to say, but he also listens really well.
Kathy Freston:
He's so damn smart. He's so instinctive. He's very, very good. Yeah. He really is. He pulls things out of you. It's like, "I don't why I'm telling you all my secrets, but I am." Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
That was the brilliance of Gene, especially in my first book, The Engine to Diet, because we're trying to figure out like, "How do we start this book off?" Then Gene was like, "Tell me just the scariest, worst moment ever as a firefighter, but the most crazy fire you ever made."
Kathy Freston:
Oh, wow.
Rip Esselstyn:
I wrote it all up. That's how we began the whole thing. It was like ...
Kathy Freston:
Amazing.
Rip Esselstyn:
... everything fell into place.
Kathy Freston:
Amazing.
Rip Esselstyn:
You have a chapter in 72 Reasons called Martinis. Coffee. Fun. You do like to have a little fun and ...
Kathy Freston:
A girl likes her vodka. Why can't I tell you? I mean, clearly I didn't come into this just for the health. But I love a vodka martini on a Saturday night. I love a glass of wine during the week. I love a cup of coffee in the morning. I think the point of that chapter was that more things are vegan already than you even know. It's you do not have to be living in a monastery with a white robe and eating sprouts. It's just not like that.
Kathy Freston:
You can actually have fun. My favorite restaurant in Santa Barbara is Lucky's Steakhouse, because they make a really ... if you're into martinis, I mean, it's perfection. It's just a little ice crystals at the top and the glass is perfect. It's really nice. All my friends love to go there. But that didn't have anything that was a vegan there. I talked to the manager, he said, "Kathy, this is a steakhouse. We're not a vegetarian restaurant."
Kathy Freston:
I'm like, "I know, but I would spend money here because I'm coming for the martini. But if you had a burger." He puts amazing tofu dish on just to test it out and it did really well. Yeah. I like to have a nice Saturday night cocktail.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Another thing that you have on your Instagram feed that really I liked it said, "You know what I like about people? Their dogs." I always am interested to know, "Okay. I wonder what this family's dog is like." Because their dog usually says volumes about the person or more.
Kathy Freston:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
You mean by that?
Kathy Freston:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's animals are often much easier to deal with than humans. They tend to be very simple. My dog is just she's great in every way dogs are. But she's particularly neurotic. I just love her for that, too. It's I love all of her craziness. I love her insecurity. She came from a bad place. I love her neediness. All of that stuff. It's teaching about me, because I think, "Well, gosh, I love her for all her flaws, which they're not flaws. We don't have to be perfect.
Kathy Freston:
We're likable even though we are neurotic, or needy, or whatever it is. We learn a lot from animals. I've learned a lot from my dog. But it's funny, because another post that I did, I said, "I'm an imperfect vegan." I don't know if you saw that.
Rip Esselstyn:
No. I saw that. It's got a hundred comments. I mean, people just flocked to it. Why do you think that is?
Kathy Freston:
Well, the interesting thing is I got a lot of positive comments, but I got a lot of really nasty comments, too. This is why I love talking about the ish, that you can be veganish, or whatever just leaning into it, because there were some comments that ... because I told a story about how I have an old pair of rugs that I 20 years old. I bought them way before I was into all of this stuff, and I don't wear them out in public, but I wear them around the house because they're cozy and I just never got rid of them.
Kathy Freston:
I told that story. I said something about, "Oh, when I was first vegan," I think I said five years in, but it was actually a year in. I just craved a tuna sandwich. I'm being honest with my people because I'm all about, "Let's just tell the truth." I said, "I really craved a tuna sandwich." I went into a deli, and I got a tuna sandwich. My favorite lunch of all time was a tuna sandwich with potato chips and a Diet Coke.
Kathy Freston:
I went home and I opened the tuna fish sandwich and I took a bite. I was like, "Meh, it wasn't even good. It was fishy, because it's tuna fish." I talked about it in the spirit of "Listen, we all make bloopers along the way and have a little thing that we go out on. That doesn't mean that you are so horrible. You get kicked out of the club or something." I posted about that and I had some of the most nasty comments from these hardcore vegans saying that I was a murderer and I set Veganism back by decades, and I should be deeply ashamed of myself and all of this stuff."
Kathy Freston:
I have a thick skin when it comes to this stuff because I know myself and I know I'm compassionate and kind. Nobody can tell me that I'm a murderer and that I'm an asshole. I was okay with that. But it was very good for me to see, because I think some people their exposure to veganism is to someone like that, who is shaming and bullying and militant, and they think, "Oh, my God, I have to be perfect. Overnight, I have to be perfect." Or "I can't do this."
Kathy Freston:
I think it's really important for people to know that you don't have to be perfect. You just be as vegan as you can be. Hopefully, you'll find your footing and you'll find your way. For me, it's like, "I'm completely vegan." Well, I think I am. But I'm joyous about it. I love it. But if I had to switch like that overnight, I would have been miserable. I couldn't keep it up.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. You probably got some unsubscribes, right?
Kathy Freston:
Probably. Probably. But that's okay. I mean, I think other people were like, "Yeah, I'm imperfect, too." Then they would tell me what they do. Like, "Once a year, my mom gives me this birthday cake, and it probably has eggs in it or whatever." It's like, "It's okay. It's okay. Just do the best you can do."
Rip Esselstyn:
I think I heard or read a quote, I think it's in 72 Reasons to Be Vegan where you're much more about progress than you are perfection.
Kathy Freston:
Yes, exactly. Exactly. I take that from the 12-step program because I used to go to Al-Anon. They always say "Progress, not perfection." I just love that. It's like, "Do the best you can. You do not have to be perfect." I think it was Victor Hugo, I'm not sure, who said, "Perfection is the enemy of the good." That's really true. We're going to hold out for things to be perfect, perfect, perfect.
Kathy Freston:
Well, guess what? Decades will go by, because that's not going to happen. We might as well start now, do the best that we can, and keep reaching for the better.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. It's obvious that you ... the more people that you can get to go vegan, the more animals that will be saved? Is it fair to say that ... I mean, yes, we know that you're helping the environment. It's the healthiest way to eat. But is it fair to say for you, your core pillar is to save the animals?
Kathy Freston:
Well, for me, my core pillar is to live according to my values to the best that I can. That would mean kindness and mercy. It's not showing mercy to just like, "Let that animal go through that, because I have a hankering for a pork chop. That's not showing mercy." Yeah. I do think about the animals. We worked with a scientist, know more, who's just brilliant, he ran all these numbers. Someone who goes vegan saves 207 and a half animals per year.
Rip Esselstyn:
Do we know is that cattle, pigs, and ...
Kathy Freston:
A lot of them are fish. A lot of them are fish, because they're smaller animals. If you're going at it from an ethical place, you want to give up the smaller animals first, because that many more units of suffering. Chickens are smaller than cows. If you're going to give up one animal at a time, you want to give up chickens before you give up cows, because the units of suffering are so many, so much more with the smaller animals.
Kathy Freston:
A lot of that is our fish. But fish as we know feel pain. They're sentient. They absolutely feel pain and misery just like other animals do. They're worthwhile to me, too.
Rip Esselstyn:
You also have a chapter in there, along with fish feel pain, but also I think it's chickens like to cuddle. Is that true?
Kathy Freston:
Chickens like to be cuddled. Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Do they really? I mean ...
Kathy Freston:
They do. Well, here's a thing about animals is that some of them are cranky, and some of them are lovable, some of them are needy, some of them are jealous. Just like with people, there's all kinds of ... some person loves affection. Another one doesn't like to be touched, because they're traumatized or whatever. There's all different kinds. But yeah, they generally do like to be cuddled.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. When I was talking to Gene, I had Gene on the podcast, we talked about how some cows like to listen to ...
Kathy Freston:
Classical music.
Rip Esselstyn:
Classical music and really adore classical music.
Kathy Freston:
They didn't go for the Hard Rock. They weren't into metal.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Yeah. That is funny. Well, I had an old girlfriend, who had two cows, she had a sheep, she had a donkey, she had chickens. Every morning, these two cows would come up to the house, and each one had a very distinct personality. Literally, we fell in love with these cows, the donkey, the chickens. It isn't until you're really around a lot of these animals day after day after day that you realize that each and every one of them has their own distinct personality.
Kathy Freston:
Yeah. It's incredible.
Rip Esselstyn:
Like you've said a number of times. They're very sentient. They are caring, feeling, wonderful.
Kathy Freston:
Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty amazing. That's why we'd like to do in the book, there's some of that feel good stuff. Pigs are super smart, and chickens like to be cuddled. Then there's the stuff of like, "This is why you might want to reconsider eating fish. This is a story about longevity." There's a balance. The book was written for the ADD person. It's not organized in sections. It's like, "Here's a little bit of this, and here's the hit of this."
Kathy Freston:
It's just you go in and find what's interesting to you. You don't have to read it from beginning to end. It's just little sections of different information.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, it's perfect for today's microwave mentality, right?
Kathy Freston:
Yes. Well put.
Rip Esselstyn:
You guys hit it out of the park.
Kathy Freston:
I never heard that expression. That's great.
Rip Esselstyn:
You guys have a bunch of chapters on sex. Basically, you have one on "Dude, your erections" and then it's hashtag, "better, longer," right?
Kathy Freston:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
That sounds pretty good. You have one for women gals ...
Kathy Freston:
Written by ...
Rip Esselstyn:
Gals your clitoris ... Is it clitoris or clitoris?
Kathy Freston:
I think either way goes.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay. Okay. But gals your clitoris and then it's hashtag "orgasms."
Kathy Freston:
Hello. Do you know who wrote that chapter?
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, I know who helped. Yes. My sister, Jane, right?
Kathy Freston:
Yeah. She was fantastic. She just explained the whole biological process of getting aroused and orgasm.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, both those reasons, to me, are why vegans have better sex.
Kathy Freston:
Hello. I mean, if nothing else, why not do it for that? Better circulation, same thing that clogs up the arteries that go to your heart, your brain, same thing goes to the tender bits. You get that clear circulation all over your body. It just works all around.
Rip Esselstyn:
Absolutely. Let me pivot here and go to so many people these days think they need to be taking $100, $200 worth of supplements every month. Did you find when you're eating a plant-based diet, you need to take supplements?
Kathy Freston:
Well, studies would show that actually people do not do as well with supplements. They actually suffer other kinds of things. The most amazing thing about nature is that everything is out there. You eat a beautiful, colorful diet, you're getting all kinds of phytonutrients, vitamins, minerals, you're getting all the fiber and all that stuff. You really don't have to worry about supplementing as long as you're eating enough calories. As you know, you're going to get what you need.
Kathy Freston:
Vegans do need B12 because B12, as you know, comes from the dirt and the digestion. Animals eat that dirty stuff, and it happens in their system. Then when we eat their flesh, we get the B12. But we live in a world where everything is so clean now. We're not eating blueberries that have dirt and muck all over it. We do need to supplement B12. But even adults who are meat eaters don't absorb B12 very well. They would probably do well to take B12 as well.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Kathy Freston:
I just do a little squirt under my tongue.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. You do it daily?
Kathy Freston:
Daily. I put it right on my vanity where I'm about to put my makeup on and it reminds me I'm like, "Oh, yeah, do a little squirt. That's it."
Rip Esselstyn:
You take any other supplements besides B12?
Kathy Freston:
I don't. You?
Rip Esselstyn:
I don't. I'd say once a year, I get my levels checked on my vitamin D, and calcium and all that stuff. They're always just perfect, perfect or ...
Kathy Freston:
Yeah. Amazing.
Rip Esselstyn:
... closer to high, which is good. My B12, I mean, there was a year where I didn't supplement on B12. I still was 925. The range is 250 to 1,200. But I think it's because I did so much RED STAR Nutritional Yeast. I did a lot all fortified plant-based milk.
Kathy Freston:
Yeah. That's true when that stuff is fortified. You're definitely covered. Who knows, I mean, maybe you don't. I'm just like, "I'm going to hedge my bets and take it. It's not harmful. I'm taking it."
Rip Esselstyn:
There's a lot of noise out there about taking different omega threes, the DHA, and the EPA. But I haven't messed with any of that. I do my brown flaxseed meal. My ...
Kathy Freston:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
My walnuts. My green leafies. My soy beans. I think ...
Kathy Freston:
You're good. You're good. I mean, look at you. Come on. You're good.
Rip Esselstyn:
You're good. No. You're ...
Kathy Freston:
I told my doctor. Every time I go in, she takes my blood. She goes, "This is really good. You should publish it." I'm like, "I just wish you would start telling your patients to eat more plant-based, because it really ... if people knew how good your levels are of all of these different things, there's like inflammatory markers, all of these things that show up in your blood. You just thrive with this food."
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Let's talk beans for a second. Because I am sure you love beans. I love beans. I mean, I like to have beans, if I can, at least twice a day. You guys have a toll chapter. Beans can help you live longer. But there's so much noise around beans right now, especially with the plant paradox and the lectins, and stuff like that. What's so good about beans? How can they help me live longer?
Kathy Freston:
Well, the funny thing about the lectins and everything is so interesting. It's like soy. It's like, "Let's get out in front and muddy the waters that people will be confused that maybe they shouldn't." I don't know. Maybe I'm a little conspiracy theory. But I think there's some weird industry tampering. I don't know. But beans have been around staple food for the people who live the longest in the world for many, many centuries.
Kathy Freston:
I mean, The Blue Zones or Dan Buettner, the National Geographic, founder of The Blue Zones, and the places in the world where people live the longest, are the healthiest and also the happiest, eat beans every day. The soybeans in Okinawa, all kinds of beans in Sardinia, and Loma Linda, they're eating chickpeas and all kinds of stuff. Dan would say that beans are a super food. If you have to find one kind of food, that's a super food, beans would be it.
Kathy Freston:
They're so inexpensive. They're so full of fiber. One cup of lentils is 17 grams of protein. One egg is only 6 grams of protein. Basically three of it in the white, three of it in the yolk. If you're only eating the whites, you're getting 3 grams of protein per egg. It doesn't make sense. One cup of lentils is so small, you're probably having a few cups of lentils. That's a lot of protein that you're getting. Plus you're getting all the minerals and vitamins and fiber that comes along with beans.
Kathy Freston:
Where eggs, you're getting lots of cholesterol, you're getting saturated fat, you're getting all that inflammatory protein, and you're not even getting enough of what you're saying that you want, which is protein.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Well with the eggs, I love saying and I think I first heard this from Neil Barnard, is there's only two things wrong with the egg, the yolk and the white.
Kathy Freston:
It's great. Oh, that's great. I love that.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Kathy Freston:
Yeah. I love that.
Rip Esselstyn:
You talk about how this lifestyle is an ongoing adventure. This last chapter, it's chapter number 72. How is this an ongoing adventure for you?
Kathy Freston:
For me, when I became vegan, I was out at dinner with a friend and somehow we were talking about it. She points down at my feet. She said "What are they?" I said, "Feet." She said "No. What are you wearing on your feet?" I said "Shoes." She said, "What are they made of?" I said, "Leather." She said, "Don't talk to me about vegan if you're wearing leather." I was so thrown off and I was like ... and then I realized I'm like, "That's where progress not perfection came along." It's like, "I'm on my process. I didn't think about that yet." I may not give up leather, I don't know.
Kathy Freston:
But I think sometimes people find an excuse like, "If you can't do everything, don't even do anything." I was a little defensive. Then I thought, "You know? I would like to be someone who didn't wear animal stuff on her feet. I would like that." But it was a lot harder to get rid of my Manolo Blahniks than it was to get rid of the steak. Girl like shoes. I love shoes. I love my shoes.
Kathy Freston:
I was like, "I'm just not quite ready to do that." What I did is I went about it in the same spirit as I did about the food." That is adventure. Like, "I'm going to make this a sport." Like, "What stuff could I find that is not made of leather, things that I like, shoes that I like, brands that have cool shoes." I didn't do it like that. But I started, "Next time, I needed a pair of boots, I made it my business to find a pair of boots that we're not made from leather."
Kathy Freston:
Little by little, I just got that out of my life. But that's what the chapter means. It's like, "You can take this as far as you want. You can keep going. We only talk about food in this book." This is not about being hardcore vegan with everything. But the last chapter is it's an ongoing adventure. Take it as far as you want. If you want to keep going and learn more about that stuff, you may want to keep ... have nothing from an animal. That's cool.
Rip Esselstyn:
That's interesting. When I started this in 1987, I did it first and foremost, primarily because I wanted to be the best athlete that I could be.
Kathy Freston:
Right.
Rip Esselstyn:
I was eating this way to feel myself in a way that would allow that to happen. Then it was "Oh, my God. I can prevent heart disease and all those other stuff, and obviously the research from my father at the Cleveland Clinic." Yeah. And then it was really my kid. Once I had kids, I realized, Oh, my God, we're eating all these animals that we talk about in the little red barn and
Kathy Freston:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Then it was really my kid. Once I had kids, I realized, "Oh, my God. We're eating all these animals that we talk about in The Little Red Barn and Charlotte's Web. Oh, my God, how that is so wrong." Now look where we are now. I mean, back in 2010, '11, '12. I was meeting with a lot of people about what can we do for people to eat this way, because we're bearing this world? I mean, climate change is just disaster.
Rip Esselstyn:
I mean, you're right. This is an ongoing adventure in learning all of our truths. What's funny is to me, it all comes back and intersects, and it's plants.
Kathy Freston:
Yeah. That's right. That's right. That's great. I love that.
Rip Esselstyn:
Really.
Kathy Freston:
You say that so perfectly. That's great.
Rip Esselstyn:
Since you and Gene have written this book, because ... No. I haven't written nine books. I've written four books. But in each one is "Oh, my gosh. What a process. It's usually about two years or so." Do you have any more books on the horizon right now?
Kathy Freston:
Oh, my gosh. I always say "No." Then I ended up writing another one. I think that the next book that I write, even though I don't want to write another one, but as I said, I don't know how to do anything but write. I probably will. I think it's going to be something more personal, something like ... I started dabbling around just how to move forward in your life. It's going to be more of an emotional thing than a vegan thing.
Kathy Freston:
It's just going to be basically how to cope. I don't know. It's just in my mind, but it'll definitely be a more emotionally driven book. Because veganism is all about the facts so much as about facts. Like I said, you have to be a walking database. It's like, "I'm an environmental scientist, and then I'm a medical expert, and then I'm animal welfare, and I have to know all this stuff," which is why we wrote the books that we didn't have to remember all that stuff.
Kathy Freston:
But I think where I live is more of an emotional connected, conceptual person. I think I want to write something like that. But I don't know yet.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Well, if that's what's percolating, then go with it.
Kathy Freston:
Yeah. Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Since you've written 72 Reasons to Be Vegan, and you have to send it in and, "Okay, we're done at 72." Have you now been going, "Oh, my God. I can't believe we forgot this one or this one, and it should have been 85?"
Kathy Freston:
No. No. Because when we started ... Gene has one that he wanted to add, which is ridiculous. I don't know if he tells you about it. But I think we just stopped when it started to feel it was repetitive or something. He was really rooting for this other reason. Did he tell you what it was?
Rip Esselstyn:
No. But I've got one or a couple that you need to add for your next edition?
Kathy Freston:
Yeah. Something sci-fi about an alien. If an alien were to come down and ... I don't know. Yeah. I think you have to be into sci-fi to understand this. I was like, "No. We're good. We're good." I'm also about "Let's not overwhelm people, too. Let's just get the basics down here. Keep it simple. Keep it digestible." There could always be volume two, you never know.
Rip Esselstyn:
Were you in Gene always copacetic, or was there a time when you guys went at it as far as "No, we're not going to have that or have that or yes."
Kathy Freston:
We never went at it. Definitely not. We're very simpatico. Sometimes he thinks I write like a girl.
Rip Esselstyn:
You are.
Kathy Freston:
Because it's by both of us. There were times when he be like, "Kathy, no. A guy is not going to want to read that. You know what I mean?" I was like, "But that's," we our personalities with each chapter, because we split up the book. He wrote half I wrote half. Some of them are more emotionally driven than others, I guess. I don't know.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Well, I think another reason ... I mean, there's so many reasons. But the dishes, doing the dishes is so easy when you eat plants.
Kathy Freston:
I know. It's so great. It's so great. You don't have to wear hazmat suit in the kitchen.
Rip Esselstyn:
There you go. No hazmat. That's number 73. No hazmat suit required.
Kathy Freston:
Right. All the salmonella ... Yeah. It's when you're cooking chicken and eggs, all this stuff. It's like, "You better put on your gloves, your hood, all this stuff." I'm a bit of a germ thing. But it's like, "Oh, my God. I can just picture the germs crawling over the counter and contaminating." "It's like, "Don't have to worry about that." It's so great.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Kathy, this has been spectacular. Thank you for spending some time on the Plant-Strong Podcast with me and all the listeners. You are a beacon of light, of hope, of inspiration. Thank you so much for following your truth, even though it's not necessarily the easiest path. It's the one that makes you the most happy and helps so many other people and animals, and the planet.
Kathy Freston:
Thank you. Yeah. Throw in the planet in there. Thank you for that, Rip. I love, love, love our conversation. I really, really enjoyed it.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Thank you. All right. Can you follow me peace?
Kathy Freston:
Peace.
Rip Esselstyn:
Turn it around, Engine Two.
Kathy Freston:
Engine Two.
Rip Esselstyn:
Keep it Plant-Strong.
Kathy Freston:
Plant-Strong. Love it.
Rip Esselstyn:
I am so happy to have been the one to introduce Kathy and Gene to each other so many years ago. Not only have they developed a wonderful friendship, but now they have written this great book together. The subtitle speaks for itself. Why plant-based. Why now. These aren't questions. These are bold statements. I'm happy to have been able to introduce many of these reasons with you over the last two weeks.
Rip Esselstyn:
We'll be back next week. But in the meantime, if you want to learn more about the book or any of our resources, simply visit plantstrongpodcast.com Thanks a lot.
Rip Esselstyn:
Thank you for listening to the Plant-Strong Podcast. You can support the show by taking a quick minute to follow us, wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Leaving us a positive review and sharing the show with your network is another great way to help us reach as many people as possible with the exciting news about plants.
Rip Esselstyn:
Thank you in advance for your support. It means everything. Have you had your own Galileo moment that you'd like to share? What happened when you stepped into the arena and shed the beliefs that you thought to be true? I'd love to hear about it. Visit plantstrongpodcast.com to submit your story and to learn more about today's guests and sponsors.
Rip Esselstyn:
The Plant-Strong Podcast team includes Carrie Barrett, Laurie Kortowich, Ami Mackey, Patrick Gavin, and Wade Clark. This season is dedicated to all those courageous truth seekers who weren't afraid to look through the lens with clear vision and hold firm to a higher truth, most notably, my parents, Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn, Jr., and Ann Crile Esselstyn. Thanks for listening.
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