#81: Gene Stone - The Pen is Mightier than a Slab of Meat
Have you ever come across a person in your life who just brings out the best in you? They challenge you, ask the right questions, they’re present, and recognize a gift that maybe YOU didn’t even know you had?
Author, Gene Stone, is one of those people for Rip and, if his name doesn't sound familiar, his writing surely will.
Gene is the author or co-author of over 50 books including two of Rip's books - The Engine 2 Diet and Plant-Strong. Other familiar titles include Dr. Michael Greger’s book, How Not to Die, the first Forks over Knives, or Living the Farm Sanctuary Life by Gene Bauer. The list of his books on health, wellness, and nutrition is certainly impressive and, today, we dig into his latest project, 72 Reasons to Be Vegan that he co-wrote with vegan rockstar, Kathy Freston.
Here’s the cool thing about Gene. When Rip first met him back in 2006, he wasn’t plantstrong at all, but he did have an open mind, allowing him to have a Galileo moment while writing The Engine 2 Diet. Today, he eats, sleeps, breathes, and writes the lifestyle, which is how his new book, 72 Reasons to Be Vegan came to be.
This new book answers the inevitable question that we all get - "WHY would you do that?!”
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Gene Stone is the author, co-writer, or ghostwriter of over fifty books, reaching millions of readers with important ideas about how to work, live, and thrive.
After an early career as a book, magazine, and newspaper editor, Gene began devoting his energy full-time to writing books. Fifteen titles have reached The New York Times Bestseller list. Six have become #1 national bestsellers. He has worked with dozens of influential scientists, doctors, and business leaders, from astrophysicist Stephen Hawking to TOMS shoes founder Blake Mycoskie. He has taken on a wide variety of subjects but recently he has focused on new approaches to wellness and nutrition, especially the benefits of a plant-based diet, as well as animal protection. Gene’s work informs readers and then drives change in how they think, work, and live.
Full Transcript
Gene Stone:
Well, what we're trying to do there is let people know that this is not something rigorous, this is not something difficult. Kathy likes to talk about crowding out rather than excluding. In other words, if you put a lot of vegetables and fruits into your diet, there's less room for the stuff that you really shouldn't be eating, but it's also, it's fun. You get to meet new foods, you get to talk to people who are vegan. All of a sudden you have a great bond. It is an adventure for me, of course, it has been an incredible adventure since meeting you and then writing your books and everybody else's books. I'm not saying other people need to do that, but if you are interested in animal protection or you're interested in health. For me it was writing, but there's so many other things you can do that can advance the course if that's where you choose to go. So yeah, it is an adventure.
Rip Esselstyn:
Season three of the PLANTSTRONG podcast explores those Galileo moments, where you seek to understand the real truth around your health and dare to see the world through a different lens. This season, we honor those courageous seekers who are paving the way for you and me. So grab your telescope, point it towards your future, and let's get PLANTSRONG together.
Rip Esselstyn:
Welcome to the PLANTSRONG podcast. I am Rip Esselstyn, and this is going to be a very special episode for me and hopefully for you, the listener, because of the relationship that I have with this person. Have you ever come across a person in your life who just brings out the best in you? They challenge you, they ask the right questions, they're present and they recognize qualities and gifts that maybe you didn't even know that you had. Well, my good friend, Gene Stone is one of those people for me and I can't wait for you to meet him today. Although I have to say, you've probably already met him through his prolific writing. Gene is the author or co-author of over 50 books, including you guessed it, a couple of my books, including the Engine 2 Diet and Plant Strong. Some others that you may know are Dr. Michael Greger's book, How Not to Die, the first Forks Over Knives book and Living The Farm Sanctuary Life by Gene Baur.
Rip Esselstyn:
The list of his books on health, wellness and nutrition is impressive. And today we dig into his latest project, 72 Reasons To Be Vegan that he co-wrote with vegan rockstar, Kathy Freston. Now here's the cool thing that I admire so much about Gene. When I first met him back in 2006, he wasn't Plant Strong at all, but he had an open mind which allowed him to have a Galileo moment while working with me that built as he was working with others that enabled him to see the truth, the undeniable truth about the benefits of a Plant Strong life.
Rip Esselstyn:
Today, Gene literally eats, sleeps, breeze and writes the lifestyle, which is how his new book, 72 Reasons To Be Vegan came to life. It answers the inevitable question that we all get, why in the world would you want to do that? So let's catch up and start answering these questions with my good friend and author Gene Stone.
Rip Esselstyn:
All right, gang, here I am, season three of the PLANTSTRONG Podcast. And I think it's about time that I introduce you to this man who I think next to Anne Essy, my sister Jane, there's nobody that I'm closer to that I've had on the PLANTSTEONG Podcast, then Gene Stone. And Gene, you and I go back a good... Gosh, now it's a good 13, 14 years. And I want to talk about our history. I want to talk about the new book that you just came out with and all the exciting things that are going on in the world of veganism and all things plant-based.
Rip Esselstyn:
So for starters, right? Well first let me just say this, so season three, what we're really doing is we're honoring, trailblazing individuals that they've had a Galileo moment, it has defined their truth and then the way that they go forward and the path that they leave. And I really don't know anybody that's probably helped more people on the planet, go plant-based than you, right? Because of all the different people that you've collaborated with since our journey 13 years ago. So for starters, let me just say, well, how do we know each other? Why do we know each other? Why do we love each other so much?
Gene Stone:
Those are three very different questions. I can tell you how we know each other. Is one day I got a phone call from the person you had just picked as your agent saying, "Hey, Gene, do you want to meet this Texas firefighter?" And I said, no, because what would I have in common with a Texas firefighter? And he said, "No, you really ought to talk to this guy he's interesting and he's vegan." And I thought, oh, I think that's vegan, but I know what you mean. So we started chatting and I said, okay, I'll talk to him on the phone. And so I can't remember if you called me, if I called you. But it was really one of those amazing moments, because I would say within an hour, not only have we bonded, but we also discovered that your grandfather had saved my mother's life 30 years, 40 years earlier. Which is like, whoa, the universe is talking to us.
Rip Esselstyn:
And that to me, it was a very telling conversation. And it was one of those things where, okay, this is more than coincidence. I think this was meant to happen, right? That you and I collaborate together to write the first book, the Engine 2 Diet, which then led to the second book and, of course, the third book.
Gene Stone:
I just want to interrupt, by the way, in case anyone is curious, Rip's grandfather was a surgeon at the Cleveland clinic at a time when my mother had breast cancer and she refused to have both of her breasts taken off which was the standard practice at that time, but only Rip's grandfather is willing to do a lumpectomy, which basically saved my mother's life. And this took place in, I think, 1970 and the two of them... My mother wrote a book about it and the two of them went on TV together and neither Rip nor I had any idea that we had this connection until I guess, it came out maybe an hour or so or two hours into our conversation.
Rip Esselstyn:
No, that's exactly right. And thank you for bringing that back to Barney. Because you're right. Back in the 70s, he's the surgeon that brought the partial mastectomy, the lumpectomy to America.
Gene Stone:
Known as the savior of the American breast.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yes. And it is. What a small world that of all the potential writers to hook up with, it was you and that relationship that your mother had with my grandfather if that's not the universe telling us something, then what is?
Gene Stone:
Oh, and we also discovered that your aunt, Susan had been one of the people who had encouraged me to go into writing.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right.
Gene Stone:
Actually, it's like two doses of coincidence.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. So when I met you, you were very far from being... Well, you were not a vegan, you were not plant-based.
Gene Stone:
No, I wasn't.
Rip Esselstyn:
Can you tell people where you were and if anything, I think you referred to yourself as a meataholic.
Gene Stone:
Definitely. Well, but at that time, I wasn't a meataholic as much as I was... Well, I certainly wasn't plant strong or even plant okay. Because I really love fish and I love cheese and I've written a lot of books already for various doctors, but nobody had really hit me over the head with the Plant-Strong message yet. So I was a little reluctant I thought, I don't know, but you were such a avid supporter of the idea that I thought well... I actually remember the conversation. It must have been, soon as we decided we'd worked together, I remember saying to you, "Hey, I guess I should try this thing, right?" And you said, "Yeah, let's do that." And you became a most incredible coach. And I feel bad for people that didn't have you as a coach, because I don't even know if you remember, you would call me like two or three times a day, like, what did you eat? What did you eat today? How do you feel? Did you not have any fish? Are you sure? It was like, okay, this is going to have to happen.
Rip Esselstyn:
No. I remember very well, almost like it was yesterday when I was like, listen, if you're going to help write this book with me, I really think that you needed a 28 day challenge. So you understand exactly what's going on. Because if you remember or not, I already had the 20 day challenge where we had the firefighter, we had the fire cadet, we had all that broken up and I had just started the six week pilot study. And so you jumped in and bless you for being so open-minded and agreeing to this experiment, which has, I think forever shaped your destiny.
Gene Stone:
Well, it actually has. One of those people - Rare- where the passion you feel in life, which I developed for animal protection, for a plant-based diet is also the way you make your money. So that doesn't happen too often. So I'm very grateful to that. Because what happened is you then introduced me to Brian Wendell, who is starting to do Forks Over Knives. And so I talked to him about doing the book in association with that. Through Brian I then met Gene Baur, through Gene Baur, I met Nathan Runkle and it just kept snowballing. I would meet these people and all of them deserve to have books. And at the time, I was a guy who was trusted by the publishing world, because I've already written so many books. So even though, back what? 2007, when I did become vegan, plant-based people said, "Oh, you have an eating disorder or there's something wrong with you". In fact it was so strange to think that back then being plant-based caused so much concern. Do you remember that we had to actually put a little chicken into the first book to satisfy the publisher?
Rip Esselstyn:
No, I was just going to say the exact same thing that our publishing house, they were fantastic and so supportive, but it was such a radical idea. And there were so few books on eating plant-based that they insisted that as part of the eating plan. We included some fish and some chicken and in future editions, we've removed that. But that's how early we were to this game.
Gene Stone:
We actually, I don't think we did it on... I'd like to think we did it on purpose, but we didn't. We just happened to be right as the wave began to crest. It was just the exact right timing. When your book came out was exactly the moment when people began to think about, oh, plant-based diets, doctors started thinking about it. And then the other pillars of veganism, animal protection that started growing, athletic performance, people started looking into that and of course the environment, which has become one of the major pillars of veganism, particularly for people who are younger than us.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, it's crazy, right? It checks every box. It's fantastic. How many different books have you written or helped people write? Do you have any idea?
Gene Stone:
Actually don't, maybe a dozen.
Rip Esselstyn:
A dozen? Are you being modest?
Gene Stone:
I actually don't know. I never stopped to count.
Rip Esselstyn:
I can tell you right now it's somewhere between 40 to 60.
Gene Stone:
Oh, you mean books? I thought you meant about being plant-based.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, first, I meant in totality.
Gene Stone:
In totality, yeah. At least 50. I don't know, because again, you lose count, but I would say probably 50 or so.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay. And then in the plant-based arena, a good dozen or so, and I know you mentioned some of those, but I just love to repeat some of those like, Forks Over Knives. One of the most iconic brands that's out there. Jeez, has anybody ever heard of How Not to Die?
Gene Stone:
Yeah, that was a surprise. That's another book where I got into it thinking, Michael Greger is a terrific guy. I respect him a lot, but how many people are really going to take the idea seriously that this is the right title for a book about plant strong. And of course, some people thought How Not To Die? You telling us we're not going to die it'd be plant strong, but the point was simply if you're going to die, at least do it right by being healthy up until the last minute.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yes. So you have a new book that is coming out like any day now. It is called, I have it right here. Oh, I beat you to it no actually, you beat me to it. So there it is, right? 72 Reasons To Be Vegan. Why Plant-Based. Period. Why Now. Period. Not question marks but periods.
Gene Stone:
Absolutely. Not even exclamation points. Period.
Rip Esselstyn:
No. Yeah, that was very intentional?
Gene Stone:
Oh, yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay. All right. Because we know subtitles are usually very long and hard to remember. This is very short and easy.
Gene Stone:
Do you remember your subtitles?
Rip Esselstyn:
Absolutely. But don't ask me right now. Don't put me on the spot like that. So this is adorable. They've done such a nice job with this. I can carry it around in my back pocket, which is probably intentional.
Gene Stone:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow. So first let me ask you, you wrote this with Kathy Freston, right? Kathy, what a pillar in the vegan community. How did you and Kathy decide to team up on this book?
Gene Stone:
Well, if I'm not mistaken, didn't you introduced me to Kathy?
Rip Esselstyn:
No, I did. But that was years and years ago. Yes. But there's one thing, introducing somebody to somebody is one thing, writing a book with them is another. So obviously you and Kathy had some chemistry.
Gene Stone:
True. But for me, introducing me to someone often does lead to a book.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay. True.
Gene Stone:
Half the people you've introduced me to, I wrote books for.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay. So anybody listening, if you want to write a book, there you go.
Gene Stone:
Right here. Well, Kathy and I met through you and again, one of those things where we didn't really know each other, we just knew about each other. We had lunch and by end of the lunch, we were like totally best buds. And we really liked each other and thought let's do a project someday. And we talked about certain things here and there, but nothing ever came to fruition, but both of us had written about veganism from various points of view. And what we realized is that despite all of this stuff, about health or about the environment or animal protection, there wasn't a book that just put it all together so that if you wanted to convince somebody, "Yeah, you should go vegan". There wasn't one book that I felt I could really give to them. So that's basically how this one came about.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right. And why is it 72 reasons instead of 58 or 101?
Gene Stone:
Well, that's actually a great question that everybody asks and what we decided was we didn't want to have like a hundred reasons and then have to do a hundred or have fifty and not have enough. We just wanted to write the reasons we thought were important and hope it would end up on a good number, and then we like 72, 72 it's a good number. We like 72.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Well, so I do love the number seven and I do love the number two, right?
Gene Stone:
There you go.
Rip Esselstyn:
We did the Engine 2 Diet. We did the Engine 2 Seven-Day Rescue. You combine them and you get 72. Good. So you throw around different terms, vegan, plant-based, plant strong. Is there one way that you refer to yourself, Gene Stone, are you vegan? Are you plant-based? Are you a combination of all these things?
Gene Stone:
I would say I'm a combination and a lot of it depends on the audience I'm talking to. Talking to people who I know want to hear the word vegan, I'll go with vegan. I'm talking to people who want to hear the word plant strong, I'll do that. I think words are important, but they're also flexible. And there are people who don't like the word vegan. And it was an issue we thought about 72 Reasons To Be Plant-Based or 72 Reasons To Not Eat Meat or whatever. But we did decide to go with vegan. I had discovered that below 35 year olds, vegan isn't a bad word. Maybe for people who thought about vegans 25 years ago, who found them unpleasant and disagreeable.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Well, then you're very flexible, aren't you?
Gene Stone:
I'm a very flexible guy.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, very versatile.
Gene Stone:
I can do some yoga now and show you.
Rip Esselstyn:
One of the things in the opening of this book you and Kathy talk about how the real power of going vegan. It's not what you're giving up. It's all the things that you're gaining. Which I think so many people think that, "Oh my God, I'm going to be giving up this and giving up this and life just won't be worth living and they just don't even realize it". And you dive into all these things in this book. So are you okay if I throw some at you? A couple of the 72?
Gene Stone:
Sure. Okay.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay. Let's do it. So why don't we start with the first one, which is basically veganism is happening in a major way. It's number one.
Gene Stone:
And by the way, these are not in any particular order. We talked about this with the publisher. Should we do environmental ones, animal protection? And instead we just decided no let's just make it random so you can pick the book up at any point, go this way or go that way. But we did actually put that one first because we just thought people like to jump on a bandwagon and this is a really good bandwagon to jump on. And our point is what we were just actually talking about a little bit ago that 15 years ago, nobody was really... Well, somebody was, you were, but very few people were talking about this attitude towards food. And now it is pretty much all over the place.
Gene Stone:
I moved to Los Angeles recently. And I've discovered that basically, I don't think I've been to a single restaurant that didn't have a vegan offering. It was 15 years ago you had to beg and you'd end up with like a plate of boiled spaghetti with tomato sauce on it.
Rip Esselstyn:
No, it's so true. A couple of things that you talk about under that first point and the fact in Canada, you look at the food plate there and it's basically plant-based. You look at what's going on with Kaiser Permanente and they are one of the largest health insurance providers in the country. And they're all about plant based. And I think that this is anything but fringe right now. It is so mainstream. It's crazy.
Gene Stone:
It is amazing to me. As I said, I actually thought of your book as almost like pro bono, because I really wanted to do it, but I didn't really think it would be well, what turned out to be a huge hit. And that was 15 years ago. It's amazing. And then sometimes actually I'll talk to people like... Well, I think you've been plant strong since 1985 or so?
Rip Esselstyn:
'87.
Gene Stone:
Yeah, I just even imagined what that would have been like, did you have to make your own soy milk?
Rip Esselstyn:
No, they had soy milk. They had soy milk and rice milk and that was it.
Gene Stone:
Right. Gene Baur tells me about when they used to have to make their own soy milk up at the Farm Sanctuary and places. I don't know if I could have gone plant strong back then. Because when I did it, again, it was just at that curve. And in fact, I started an ice cream store, non-dairy ice cream store with some friends, but we were a little, before the curb it didn't quite work. So now you go to a freezer section, I think half of them are non-dairy.
Rip Esselstyn:
No, it's true. Ben & Jerry's now has 11 different offerings.
Gene Stone:
11? I didn't know that.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, it's naughty.
Rip Esselstyn:
It's not in the book? Ben & Jerry-
Gene Stone:
It will be in the next edition.
Rip Esselstyn:
Good. All right. Let's move on to another point, and this is appropriate because just a couple of weeks ago I had Robbie Balenger on the podcast. He's plant-based, he ran across America. He averaged 48 miles a day and he did it to basically to raise awareness around all things, plant based for the environment, sustainability, health. And I was talking to him and he was like, "Yeah, I just didn't have the money to buy a Tesla. And so I knew that the next best thing to going as far as being a good environmentalist was to go plant based." So you guys say it's cheaper and better than buying a Tesla.
Gene Stone:
Yeah, we actually came up with that. I just want to read that, "Researchers from the university of California Riverside, have found that the total greenhouse gas emissions associated with a single char broiled hamburger is equal to driving an 18 Wheeler for 143 miles". That is not good.
Rip Esselstyn:
If that isn't a powerful image, I don't know what is, right?
Gene Stone:
By the way, we tell people if they do want to buy a Tesla, that's cool too, but it's cheaper just to buy a impossible burger.
Rip Esselstyn:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. Impossible beyond plant strong, if it's out there. All right, this title it is intense. Fiber is your body's bitch.
Gene Stone:
Yeah. Well, we're trying to hit the audience in a happy place. Try to be cool. And the point is, as you would probably know, better than anybody given your medical family background, fiber is one of the most important things that we can put on our diet. Most people don't even think about it. If you're eating basically animal protein all the day, you're not getting the appropriate fiber. That is good for your gut, your biome, and of course, for your poops.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. And I would like to talk about that in a sec as well. Here's something that I know you have talked about a lot because it's very important to you and that is antibiotic resistance and when you are eating the standard American diet I think your likelihood... Well, actually, I'm not going to even try and pretend like I know I'm talking about. Antibiotic resistance is no joke. That is the name of that chapter.
Gene Stone:
I don't remember the statistic because I have to say this book has got maybe a thousand of statistics in it and I do not remember every one of it, but I think it's 80% of all the antibiotic use in America goes into animals. So every time you're having animal protein raised by your standard animal agriculture, you're ingesting antibiotics. And as we all know, the more antibiotics we take, the less likely they are to work in the long run.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. And something that you wrote that, and this to me just brought me to my knees is the fact that more people die of antibiotic resistance every year, than those that die from breast and prostate cancer combined. That blew my lid. I didn't know it was that extreme.
Gene Stone:
It is a crisis. And one of the things that I always trying to tell people is that you don't want to take antibiotics like they're just popping aspirin. They're very serious medicines. The more you take, the more risky it is, but doctors for whatever reason, find that it's very easy to give somebody an antibiotic. And a lot of times patients actually demand them, it's not even the doctor's choice. Patients want them so bad because they're this miracle drug and they are a miracle drug when used appropriately. Like so many of the things they're not used appropriately.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. So this next one I'm going to ask you instead of Kathy, because I'm going to have Kathy on the podcast too. But this is about blue steel, right? It's like, "Dude, your erections". I think this should grab the attention of all the men out there. And as Aaron Spitz said, "All the women out there that like their men hard, right?"
Gene Stone:
Yeah, as you know, in fact I learned this from you and your dad that, blood flow is an extremely important part of getting a strong, good erection and the best way to get good blood flow is to eat plants. And by the way, we also have this chapter on why the same is true for women and their cliterous and this section was actually written, but Jane your sister.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay. Yes. I actually noticed that.
Gene Stone:
Jane, by the way, in case people don't know teaches sex education, we just didn't randomly ask her. This is a field she knows well.
Rip Esselstyn:
No. And in fact, before this airs, we will air an episode I just had with Jane talking about sex ed. Yeah. So it's very appropriate.
Gene Stone:
If people don't know spending time with the Esselstyn family at the Esselstyn farm, it's like the most extraordinary indoctrination into plant strong diets you could ever have. Everybody there looks terrific. Everybody there is talking about why this is good for you. Why that's good for you. They're making this incredible food. If you could, I would ask, I don't know, could you invite everybody in America to come to your house?
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, we did it for a long time when we had our plant stocks there.
Gene Stone:
That's true.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right?
Gene Stone:
Wait, you had 800, 900 people?
Rip Esselstyn:
No, the most we ever had, there was about 600. Yeah. That's-
Gene Stone:
That's more than most people have at their house.
Rip Esselstyn:
I'd love to share an update with you. We are really pleased to announce the return of our in-person retreats for October, 2021. We'll be hosting a six day escape to Sedona, Arizona with our whole team and you're invited to join us. This magical venue is the most powerful setting for transformation to take place and due to its remote location and outdoor spaces. It's the perfect place to escape the pandemic. We do have COVID protocols in place, of course, and we just announced all the details. So just visit plantstrong.com today to learn more. And if you're interested register to join us this fall from October 11th to October 16th, I can't wait to meet you.
Rip Esselstyn:
So you have, I have one that's called You Could Be The Next Ghandi, Davinci, Tolstoy.
Gene Stone:
Yeah, we are not saying that you're going to go out and change the world or paint the most extraordinary paintings in history or write the greatest novel. What we're saying is that in history, some of the most remarkable people were plant-based. No, we don't think they were probably completely plant-based because it was probably very hard to be totally vegan back in 1600s, but these were people who did not ever want to eat meat. And so it isn't just simply that we're talking about the history of the last 15 years people going... Who is the... Pythagoras, yes. As far as we know, is the first person that we know of in history who was a vegetarian.
Rip Esselstyn:
A squared plus B squared equals C squared.
Gene Stone:
There you go.
Rip Esselstyn:
There you go. Well, one of the things that I read on that chapter that I thought was super interesting. Well, you talked about all the celebrities in every walk of life that are gravitating towards this way of eating from Woody Harrelson to Madonna to Toby Maguire. But I didn't know that Mary Shelley who wrote Frankenstein was vegetarian, vegan and met Frankenstein the monster also was that way. Crazy.
Gene Stone:
Yeah, it just goes to so what do you want to do in life. If you want to be a great author, or if you want to be a monster, being a vegan is the best way to go.
Rip Esselstyn:
I love it. So when we met and you took that first 28 day challenge, the one thing that you were hanging on to, and you told me I am supremely healthy, my cholesterol is as low as it can go. It can't go any lower. I'm like, "Well, let's just try. I felt like SamIAm, green eggs and ham. But you're like, "Oh, but I love my eggs." Well, tell me and you now I think believe it, eggs are not incredible or edible. Do you know why?
Gene Stone:
Yeah, that's one of our topics too and the cholesterol and eggs shows up in your body, and I did notice. My family as you know has genetically very high cholesterol levels. I came into the study, I think I was like around 170 or 180, which is by far the lowest in my family. Everybody else in my family was on statins. My mother, who your grandfather saved, her cholesterol level was over 250. But I do remember that I went down to about 110, I think maybe.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. No, you got down lower. I remember you being like 115. Yeah, right around 120 and you did it in a very short period of time. Because we checked it two weeks and a month and you even went out. Because I told you the brand of the machine that I had and you bought the test strips and the machine, and all that.
Gene Stone:
I was checking it every day from then on. I remember I went to my doctor for the checkup manual checkup a few days later and he was going like, "What is going on here?" And he just felt that the test that he did must've been wrong because he couldn't believe that your diet can have that effect on your cholesterol level. And he's a good guy. I liked my doctor. He was trained in a way that... Well, as you know medical doctors don't get a lot of nutritional education.
Rip Esselstyn:
No. One of the things that I read in that chapter that really caught my attention and I didn't know this is that the hen has something called a cloaca and the fact that a cloaca is basically an anus, a vagina and a urinary tract. That's all in one. And that is where the egg comes from. I picture that.
Gene Stone:
I tried to get people, okay you want to eat an egg, I want you to imagine how it comes to your plate, where it originates, and I want you to get a nice visual image of this happening. And are you still hungry?
Rip Esselstyn:
No. Well, I think you guys referred to it as a hen menstruation, right?
Gene Stone:
Basically right.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, oh yeah.
Gene Stone:
Right. And by the way, I no longer have that fantasy about eating an egg. For a long time I did, and I actually cheated maybe a year into it because I was at a farm, the Happy Hens next door were laying eggs everywhere. And so I had an omelet and man, I was so surprised. It didn't taste good. It was too rich. And I just couldn't believe that I no longer liked eggs. I do have just eggs sometimes.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yes. They've done a remarkable job with some of these imitation animal products, right? Whether it's the cheeses, the meats, the eggs really remarkable.
Gene Stone:
Yeah. It's just that I don't like that to be the major part of my diet. I really do prefer fruits, vegetables, legumes, and whole grains. But every now and then I'll have an impossible burger, but I'm particularly if I'm with somebody who doesn't want to do the fruits and vegetables thing, then it's really easy to give them just eggs and beyond meat sausage and they're happy.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. So speaking of happy, you have a whole chapter on how you can have fun and do this, right? Martinis and coffee and fun. Really?
Gene Stone:
Yeah. Kathy is actually really big on that one. I'm not the big martini drinker. She likes a martini, she likes a wine. She really feels it's really important to make sure that people don't look at vegans and think, "Oh, they're just sitting around being miserable all the time". And of course, when I did the book with Dr. Greger, one of the chapters is on depression and how a plant-based diet can help depression, particularly with certain spices, like saffron, which apparently tests have shown can be as effective as Prozac in reducing depression . I put saffron on everything.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. And you have a whole chapter on that, how being vegan can make you happier and I think it's fair to say that there's a lot of Americans right now that are suffering from some depression and-
Gene Stone:
A lot. Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. And the fact that maybe something as simple as going plant-based and doing some saffron and stuff like this could really help out.
Gene Stone:
I also worry, there've been talking about so many people during COVID, are gaining weight, this book can help you figure it out, how to lose weight. We talk about other things. I think that would be really useful for people coming out of COVID to come back in the world and look good and feel good. I think this book will help them.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. You have a chapter too on slaughterhouses, right?
Gene Stone:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
And how working in a slaughterhouse can be hell, and that's a side of things that I don't normally get into or talk about, but I think it's a reality and I think everybody should have some awareness around the horrendous conditions that are-
Gene Stone:
Right. In other words, these are very much for the most part reasons that are good for you, but you also wanted to make it clear that there are other reasons to go vegan particularly if you're interested in work condition. The people who work in slaughterhouses have horrible jobs, horrible life, it's a terrible thing to have to do. And by eating meat, you're basically contributing to them doing that. We also have a chapter on people who raise chickens and the intense pressure that they face. We actually got somebody who had been a person growing chicken, raising chicken, and had them figuring out why this was an untenable profession for them. And they gave it up.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Well. Yeah, it was the Berets and I actually had them on the PLANTSTRONG Podcast a couple of weeks ago. They're amazing people, they actually came to one of our Seven Day Medical immersion programs in Sedona. Yeah, and you know what they're doing now, instead of doing chicken farm, you know what they're doing?
Gene Stone:
No.
Rip Esselstyn:
They're doing mushrooms.
Gene Stone:
Oh, great. Right.
Rip Esselstyn:
Mushrooms, which is something that I know when you were in Hudson, you had a good friend that was also doing some mushroom farming.
Gene Stone:
The mushroom thing has gotten amazing. It used to be that you would have mushrooms I don't know, maybe on top of a steak or in Chinese food. And they were a little button mushrooms. Now there's like 50 different mushrooms that people talk about people going out looking for them, there are mushroom burgers. Mushrooms have become major. And by the way, I love mushrooms.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Well, and you knew who I just had on the podcast was Derek Sarno, who is all about the mighty mushroom, right?
Gene Stone:
The major mushroom guy.
Rip Esselstyn:
Major mushroom. So who in the world would have thought that cows love classical music? I mean - talk to me about this!
Gene Stone:
I love the fact that somebody not only approved it, but they wanted to prove it. When you're sitting around and thinking of what experiment can I do today, maybe I'll play classical music for cows, but somebody actually did it. And it turns out you start fiddling away Bach for a cow. She will come over and she'll get really happy. And she likes it enormously. Cows have a very bad rap. And it is true that over the years we have probably genetically modified the smartest ones away, the ones who might be unruly, but even so they're really amazing and sweet and love the creatures. And with the possible exception of pigs, I don't know of any other animal we mistreat as badly as the cow. What is the cow ever done to us?
Rip Esselstyn:
Nothing, Gene. So you mentioned pigs, right? And I think you guys have a whole chapter on pigs and how pigs are smarter than a three-year-old child.
Gene Stone:
Yeah. A lot of work has been done on their cognition and their intelligence levels. They're incredibly smart. And again, I don't want to get gruesome here because I think we all know if you start talking about what actually happens to these animals, it is not fun. But yeah, I know a few people who've taken pigs out and rescued them and they've just grown to love them. Just think they're amazing. Wonderful, sweet animals.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, growing up we had four different pet pigs.
Gene Stone:
Oh, I didn't know that.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. It was so fun. And in fact this is a fun story. So we used to have this place where we would go, it's called the big slide and you get on these burlap sacks and you go up the stairs and then you'd go down this slide. It was like as high as like a five story building. And we had a babysitter who had our two or three week old pig in a blanket and she had a little bottle and everything like that. And this woman came up and said, "Oh, let me see your cute little baby". And before she could say it's a pig, right? She put her head in there and then just shrieked because she thought, oh my God, it's a pig baby.
Gene Stone:
Well, she'd been really polite. She would have just gone with it and said, "Oh, what a cute baby?"
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh, I love the nose.
Gene Stone:
It looks just like you.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Gene Stone:
Yeah. I got to say I did stop eating anything related to pigs. Once I saw the movie, Babe, which I thought was such a wonderful movie, and this is way before I met you. But after seeing that, and of course having read Charlotte's Web and falling in love with Wilbert, I just feel like pigs are so cool.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. No, pigs are amazing. So you talk about how this vegan plant-based lifestyle is an absolute ongoing adventure. How so?
Gene Stone:
Well, what we're trying to do there is let people know that this is not something rigorous. This is not something difficult. Kathy likes to talk about crowding out rather than excluding. In other words, if you put a lot of vegetables and fruits into your diet, there's less room for the stuff that you really shouldn't be eating, but it's also, it's fun. You get to meet new foods, you get to talk to people who are vegan. All of a sudden you have a great bond. It is an adventure for me, of course, it has been an incredible adventure since meeting you and then writing your books and everybody else's books. I'm not saying other people need to do that, but if you are interested in animal protection or you're interested in health, for me, it was writing, but there's so many other things you can do that can advance the course if that's where you choose to go. So yeah, it is an adventure.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, that's a good point. I think there's so many people that are realizing all the benefits of a plant-based lifestyle and realizing how important it is that we spread this message. And so own and utilize whatever skill set you have in order to help get the message out there. And you have done that in a beautiful way.
Gene Stone:
Thank you.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, so smoking cigarettes used to be very accepted, right? Back in the '50s '60s, what? Four out of five doctors were recommended lucky strikes over Marlboro. I know those were your favorites. But do you feel like meat is the new tobacco in 15, 20, 30 years we'll be going, what in the world were we thinking that meat was healthy and people were pushing it.
Gene Stone:
Yeah. I'm not going to can't say a 100% sure of that, but I'd like to think that's the case. And I think it probably is. I think that as more people realize how pernicious it can be, how bad it is for the animals, all the other things we've talked about that eventually with the combination of these non-meat based burgers and cheeses and everything else becoming popular. Yeah, I think there's a very good chance that at some point people go, "God, what were these people doing back then? They were just destroying animals. They were destroying the earth. They were destroying everything. Just they could have a burger?" I know that sounds a little weird now, but again 30 years ago, 40 years ago, it would have been weird to say, cigarettes are bad for you. As times change, there are these moments where people begin to realize, "Oh, what we've been doing is wrong". And I'd like to think that meat is going to be eventually taboo.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, and when you think about the cigarettes, there is some secondhand smoke, right? That was cigarettes. But you think about the unhealthy ripple effect that's caused by meat. And to me it makes smoking cigarettes look like a drop in the bucket, like nothing whatsoever.
Gene Stone:
And again when I talk to people under the age of 30, it is really the environment that brings most of them into being a vegan. There's no question that animal agriculture is terrible for the environment. And so if you think you're an environmentalist and you're still having burgers, it's really hard to say that you're really an environmentalist.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Can you believe how far you've come since when you were growing up, you would hide your vegetables in the drawer next to the chair where you sat at the dinner table with your family and your mother or somebody busted you and you had to open the drawer and there was a year's worth of rotting vegetables.
Gene Stone:
Yeah. That's a legend in my family, my niece and nephew talk about that. It's like the thing that people identify with me and my family, because yeah I hated vegetables. And the only way I'd get dessert is if I had a clean plate. And luckily the only drawer in the kitchen was right there beneath me. But I wasn't smart enough to think, well, maybe tonight I should go and clean it out. It was like out of sight, out of mind and it did stink eventually. My mother discovered it. And I got totally punished for it.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh, gosh, Gene.
Gene Stone:
If anybody told me then that one day, all I would be doing is loving and eating vegetables. I would have said "No way. That's not going to happen".
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Would you say that because of your vegan plant-based lifestyle, you have now made a set of friends that you never ever would have made before?
Gene Stone:
Yeah, absolutely. Again, it's really nice to be able to write about the thing that you're passionate about, but it's also really nice to make friends well that share that same passion. And there are a number of people like you or Kathy or Gene Baur from Farm Sanctuary, I can name a lot more. And there's something really magical about meeting somebody and having this immediate sense of association and understanding that... Yeah, I have more friends than I've ever had before. It's really great.
Rip Esselstyn:
Would you say that it is a... I'm not going to say a requirement because that seems too strong, but would you say that you prefer if somebody is now plant-based, so that they're more in alignment with your values?
Gene Stone:
That's a tough one. Well, first of all, most of my friends are not plant-based and certainly they're friends I've had since college. But I actually have flipped a number of people which surprises me because it's hard to predict which of your friends will say, "Okay, I'll try that". And which of your friends say no way. Yeah, I would like it if all of my friends were plant-based it's not going to happen, but it would be nice.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. If you were stranded on a desert island and you could only have one food to sustain you for six months, what would that food be?
Gene Stone:
I guess chocolate.
Rip Esselstyn:
What? Okay, any particular brand or percent of darkness?
Gene Stone:
Well, it Would have to be over 70% to be plant-based. But no if it's only one food and it's chocolate yeah, I guess I would go with the chocolate. I'm assuming I'm not going to get rescued, so I might as well go out happy.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, can I answer my own question?
Gene Stone:
No, Rip let's say you're on a desert island and you only have one food. What would it be?
Rip Esselstyn:
Gene that is such a brilliant question. So I think because, I'm going to save up all my reserves so I can swim off that island and swim across the Atlantic or wherever it is I am. I'm going to do sweet potatoes, gorgeous orange sweet potatoes that would give me all the carbohydrates and fats and protein that I need along with the compliment of antioxidants and phytonutrients and fiber. I'm going to load up on those for probably two or three months. And then I'm going to set sail, right? With my Speedo.
Gene Stone:
Well, as you know, I can only swim at that 50 feet. So unless the island is right next to a major continent, I'm doomed.
Rip Esselstyn:
So I think that'd be awesome. You and I were stuck on a desert island. You get the chocolate, I get the sweet potatoes. I say, Gene it's been real.
Gene Stone:
Yeah, really. Well, would you send someone back to rescue me?
Rip Esselstyn:
Absolutely.
Gene Stone:
Thank you.
Rip Esselstyn:
Absolutely. And I'd also give you my stash of sweet potatoes.
Gene Stone:
No, I'd stick to the chocolate.
Rip Esselstyn:
All right, Gene, before we wrap this up, is there anything that you want to share with the audience? Anything you're most excited about or any last words of Gene Stone wisdom? Yes.
Gene Stone:
Yes. My book.
Rip Esselstyn:
72 Reasons.
Gene Stone:
That is my book, I really hope you'll buy it because it'll help you understand why you're vegan, if you already are and even better, it's a great book to give to somebody who's not quite there yet, but maybe just a little push of a book can get there. So yeah buy 10 20, 50 copies.
Rip Esselstyn:
Gene, one more question for you. Do you think that you and I have another book in us?
Gene Stone:
I think the answer there is yes.
Rip Esselstyn:
All right. Let's see what we can do. All right?
Gene Stone:
All right.
Rip Esselstyn:
And with that, will you follow my lead here. Peace.
Gene Stone:
Peace.
Rip Esselstyn:
Engine 2.
Gene Stone:
Engine 2.
Rip Esselstyn:
keep it plant strong.
Gene Stone:
Plant strong.
Rip Esselstyn:
Thanks Gene. There's a saying out there and it goes like this. You're the product of the five closest people you hang out with. Well, fortunately Gene Stone found himself surrounded by the leading voices in the plant-based movement and he is now one of the most sought after authors in this space. It has changed his life in remarkable and numerous ways. And I hope his new book helps you on your journey. Next week, we'll continue the conversation with co-author Kathy Freston. But in the meantime, if you want to learn more about 72 Reasons To Be Vegan or any of our other resources, visit PLANTSERONGPODCAST.COM. Thanks.
Rip Esselstyn:
Thank you for listening to the PLANTSTRONG Podcast. You can support the show by taking a quick minute to follow us wherever you listen to your favorite podcast. Leaving us a positive review and sharing the show with your network is another great way to help us reach as many people as possible with the exciting news about plants. Thank you in advance for your support. It means everything. Have you had your own Galileo moment that you'd like to share what happened when you stepped into the arena and shared the beliefs that you thought to be true? I'd love to hear about it. Visit PLANTSTRONGPODCAST.COM to submit your story and to learn more about today's guests and sponsors.
Rip Esselstyn:
The PLANTSTRONG Podcast team includes Carrie Barrett, Laurie Kortowich, Ami Mackey, Patrick Gavin and Wade Clark. This season is dedicated to all of those courageous true seekers, who weren't afraid to look through the lens with clear vision and hold firm to a higher truth. Most notably my parents, Dr. Caldwell B Esselstyn Jr and Anne Crile Esselstyn. Thanks for listening.
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