#80: Michael Jacobson - Salt: The Good, The Bad, and the Truth
Do you have a love affair with the salt shaker? Having trouble breaking yourself of the pre-packaged food addiction? Do you have a ballpark guess for the recommended amount of sodium you should be consuming on a daily basis? What about the devastating consequences of too much salt in your diet?
Don’t be alarmed or ashamed with any of your answers if you just don’t know. It’s not your fault. We all fall prey to marketing and the lure of salty foods and today Rip speaks with researcher and author, Michael Jacobson, about his recent book, “Salt Wars - The Battle over the Biggest Killer in the American Diet.”
Michael Jacobson is one of the preeminent scientists who has been fighting on the front lines in Washington DC - literally going to political battle for our health for more than 50 years.
He is co-founder of the Center for Science and the Public Interest, which was developed in 1971 as a Health Advocacy Group for Food Safety and Nutrition. The CSPI may not sound familiar to you, but their work will - they are responsible for nutrition facts labeling on food products, getting junk foods out of schools, and removing trans fat out of the food supply -- to name a few of their landmark efforts.
Today, though, he speaks with Rip about our love affair with salt. Why has it become so prevalent in our diet (much of it without us even realizing!)? What are the impacts on our health? And, most importantly, how can we ditch the desire for that extra dash at every meal?
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Michael F. Jacobson, Ph.D. is a co-founder and long-time Executive Director of Center for Science in the Public Interest (CPSI), now serving as a Senior Scientist. Jacobson has written numerous books and reports, including Salt Wars: The Battle Over the Biggest Killer in the American Diet; Eater’s Digest: the Consumer’s Fact Book of Food Additives, Nutrition Scoreboard; Salt: the Forgotten Killer; and Liquid Candy: How Soft Drinks are Harming Americans’ Health. He has also been honored with such awards as the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s Hero Award (2010), the American Public Health Association’s David P. Rall award for advocacy in public health (2011), and the Food Marketing Institute’s Esther Peterson Consumer Service Award (1992). His Ph.D. in microbiology is from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
Full Transcript
Rip Esselstyn:
So, in your opinion, is the most harmful substance in the American diet salt or sugar?
Michael Jacobson:
I think it's salt and it's kind of weighing apples and oranges. Salt is causing 50,000 to 100,000 premature deaths every year. Salt causes hypertension, kidney disease, heart disease, and strokes and that's a pretty direct relationship whereas with sugar, a major problem is contributing to weight gain particularly beverages. That's what evidence is clearest.
Rip Esselstyn:
Season three of Plant Strong podcast explores those Galileo moments where you seek to understand the real truth around your health and dare to see the world through a different lens. This season we honor those courageous seekers who are paving the way for you and me. So, grab your telescope, point it towards your future and let's get Plant Strong together. Welcome to another episode of the Plant Strong podcast. I'm Rip Eppelstyn. I have a few honest questions for you as we kick off today's episode. First, do you have a love affair with the salt shaker? Are you having trouble breaking yourself of the pre-packaged food addiction? Do you have a ballpark guess for the recommended amount of sodium you should be consuming on a daily basis? What about the devastating consequences of too much salt in your diet? Don't be ashamed or alarmed with any of your answers if you just don't know because it's not your fault. We all fall prey to marketing and the lure of salty foods. Trust me, that's one of the reasons why I'm here, to help cut through the BS and get straight to the research and the truth about sodium.
Rip Esselstyn:
My guest today is one of the preeminent scientists who has been fighting on the front lines in Washington D.C. literally going to political battle for my health and yours for more than 50 years. Michael Jacobson is a rock star researcher and the author of the recently released book, Salt Wars: The Battle Over the Biggest Killer in the American Diet. He is co-founder of The Center for Science and the Public Interest which was developed in 1971. That's a health advocacy group for food safety and nutrition. The CSPI may not sound familiar to you, but their work will. They are responsible for nutrition facts labeling on food products. They are also responsible for getting junk food out of schools and removing trans fat out of the food supply just to name a few of their landmark efforts. Today though, we talk all about our love affair with salt. Why has it become so prevalent in our diet? Much of it without us even realizing it? What are the impacts on our personal health and most importantly, how can we ditch the desire for that extra dash at every single meal? Please welcome Michael Jacobson.
Rip Esselstyn:
So, season three of the Plant Strong podcast is really about Galileo moments where we kind of look through the telescope and we see the truth and it kind of changes our trajectory. My question to you is, you've obviously had a passion for nutrition, for additives. You've been a health advocacy group for years. Why now Salt Wars?
Michael Jacobson:
Well, I've been working on salt since 1977 and I mentioned it a few minutes ago, it took 25 years to get the Federal Government to really take on trans fat and get it out of the food supply and if that was fast, a quarter of a century, with salt it's been 50 years since the first recommendation of the government to limit sodium and for industry to do so voluntarily. 50 years and so we filed petitions, got appropriations for one thing or another, got a report from the National Academy of Sciences, but sodium consumption has stayed about the same as long as it's been measured which is roughly 40 years and sodium consumption has not declined despite all these recommendations.
Michael Jacobson:
And I thought it would be interesting to kind of step off the battlefield for a year or so and write the story of salt and evidence of its harmfulness. That's really ... I should say, excess salt because a little bit of salt, you can't avoid sodium. It's in natural foods. You can be the purest vegan and you'll still have sodium, so we're talking about excess sodium and what is the resistance in the scientific community because, while conventional, most researchers agree that excess salt is harmful, there are some researchers that contend that reducing sodium will also be harmful. And that has really muddied the waters. The research is junk. It's terribly flawed, but that has muddied the water and helped prevent policy changes that would reduce sodium consumption. So Salt Wars, my book looks at both the science and then the policies and why it's taking so darn long to do anything, to get any progress.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, well what I'd love to do right now is I'd love to pepper you with some questions about Salt Wars.
Michael Jacobson:
Okay.
Rip Esselstyn:
Let's do it. I think number one, what are some of the most common ways and why is salt used in food?
Michael Jacobson:
Well it's primarily used as a flavoring. It adds a nice flavor to lots of food, but it serves a lot of other purposes. It's a preservative so in pickles, it's a preservative. Processed meats, it's a preservative. It's a very important function and if salt wasn't used then we'd need some other substances to replace it or processes to replace it. In bread, it maintains, it helps provide a good texture. When bread is made in a commercial bakery, salt helps it go through the machinery, so it's used for a variety of purposes, but companies are very often using more than is required.
Rip Esselstyn:
So, what is the average consumption of salt/sodium by Americans on a daily basis?
Michael Jacobson:
Okay, let me throw out some numbers here.
Rip Esselstyn:
Sure.
Michael Jacobson:
The average American is consuming around 3400 milligrams a day and that's roughly one and a half teaspoons of salt if it were all present in the form of salt, one and a half teaspoons. The recommendation is one teaspoon, so we're consuming 50% more. Now, the question is how much do we need? Some scientists have looked at a paleolithic diet to try to understand what people kind of naturally tens of thousands of years ago and it's probably 800 or 1000 milligrams a day from meats and vegetables and nuts and seeds and fish, so 800 to 1,000. That's less than half of our recommended limit. And then there's some societies that, and now there's still some societies that exist in Africa, Asia, Latin America, where these are isolated tribes, they tend to be near vegetarian and they consume something like 100 to 400 milligrams a day, a tenth of what a recommended limit and they seem to be doing pretty well and in some ways, better than us. High blood pressure is unknown, almost unknown in those societies. So that's the range 100 milligrams at the lowest end to Americans 3400 milligrams and then in some societies, rural China, it might be 5000 milligrams.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow.
Michael Jacobson:
A day.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, is there ... Because I've always heard the recommended minimum amount of sodium is 500 milligrams and you're saying it could be as low as 100?
Michael Jacobson:
That's right and those numbers 100, 500, they're totally unrealistic for Americans, especially Americans who eat packaged foods, that go to restaurants. It doesn't matter if you're vegan or vegetarian, an omnivore, you're going to get a lot of salt in all kinds of foods and that's what makes it hard to deal with. It's not sugar. Americans, on the whole, get about 40% of their added sugars from beverages, soda pop, Starbucks beverage, adding a teaspoons to tea, so for the salt, there's no food that gives 40%. It's distributed throughout the food supply. Bread is one of the largest sources and it's not that bread is high in sodium. It's that people eat a fair amount of bread, breakfast, lunch, and dinner. You want to throw in the pizza crust and so bread is a major source of sodium.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right, so in your opinion, is the most harmful substance in the American diet salt or sugar?
Michael Jacobson:
I think it's salt and it's kind of weighing apples and oranges. Salt is causing 50 to 100,000 premature deaths every year, 50 to 100,000 and that's trans fat was probably causing 50, 75,000 deaths a year, so pretty much in the league of salt, but now it's been banned so that gets rid of that worry. Salt causes hypertension, kidney disease, heart disease, and strokes and it's a pretty direct relationship whereas with sugar, a major problem is contributing to weight gain particularly beverages. That's what evidence is clearest and so Americans with 2/3 of adults are overweight or obese, it's crazy and so what is the contribution of refined sugars to that? And it's really unclear how much of the obesity is related to the added sugars. And then obesity contributes to heart attacks and hypertension, a wide variety of health problems.
Michael Jacobson:
So again, it's a little hard to map the exact health consequences of added sugars to death and disease. Clearly people who are consuming a lot of sugars are putting themselves at great risk, but when I look at some of the numbers and other scientific evidence, I think salt is clearly the winner in terms of causing death. And, two years ago, the Commissioner of the FDA said limiting sodium is the single most important nutrition issue in front of the FDA and frankly, it shouldn't be all that hard to deal with except politically it is. Every company adds salt to its foods and no company wants to jeopardize its sales by detracting from the taste of the foods.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right and I want to talk about that in just a sec but I'd love for you to just again, so you're saying that salt is probably the major culprit as far as the number of deaths its having an impact on when it comes to hypertension, stroke, and heart disease?
Michael Jacobson:
That's right. Yeah. I'd throw in some kidney disease while you're at it.
Rip Esselstyn:
Got it and so yes, we have all these food companies and it's crazy. I mean you look and the amount of sodium that they have in soup, in veggie stocks, in broths, it's in everything. In your book, Salt Wars, you have some really spectacular charts that show some of the packaged and boxed and canned foods in the grocery store shelves and how much sodium they have. Maybe if you can remember any, I'd love for you to share some and then also, likewise, you also have some really great information on how much sodium is in some of these restaurant meals like at TGI Fridays or things like that. It would make salt come out of your ears.
Michael Jacobson:
That's right and so, keep in mind 2300 milligrams is the recommended limit.
Rip Esselstyn:
Limit.
Michael Jacobson:
In a can of Campbell's Chicken Noodle Soup, you get 2100 milligrams and a lot of people eat the whole can regardless of servings.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh yeah.
Michael Jacobson:
A frozen dinner like Conagra's Banquet Mega Bowl Buffalo Style Chicken Mac And Cheese 2100 milligrams. That's almost a whole day's worth, but if you want to really choke on salt, go to a restaurant. So, I have this chart of salt bombs at restaurants. Chili's has a dinner called The Ultimate Smokehouse Combo 8,050 milligrams of sodium.
Rip Esselstyn:
That's incredible.
Michael Jacobson:
That's almost four times the recommended limit. If you go to Denny's, Denny's and IHOP are hot beds for high sodium meals. Denny's has the Grand Slamwich with bacon cheddar tots, 3920 milligrams. Red Lobster has an Admiral's Feast, 5000 milligrams, two and a half days worth. So those amounts are crazy and of course, when you look at the calories, those are crazy also, crazy high because these meals are enormous and some people eat them, eat the whole darn thing.
Rip Esselstyn:
And one of the examples you have that I love is you have AMC's Bavarian, huge bagel that's 7,600 milligrams, just for one big bagel. I mean, not bagel, pretzel.
Michael Jacobson:
Pretzel, yeah, soft pretzel. 7600 milligrams. That's, I don't know how many calories it has, but people don't eat that pretzel every day, the problem is everything they do eat every day is overly salted and the goal is not zero milligrams a day. If companies cut down by a third or so, that would help tremendously bringing this down to the recommended limit. And I haven't talked about a salt shaker and that's because salt shakers don't provide that much salt to the average American. It's mostly restaurant foods and packaged foods. Those are the real problems except some people might be salting everything at the table and that's clearly a problem, but in general, three quarters of our sodium comes from packaged and restaurant foods.
Rip Esselstyn:
We'll be right back with Michael, but first, I'd love to share an update with you. We are really pleased to announce the return of our in person retreats for October 2021. We'll be hosting a six day escape to Sedona, Arizona with our whole team and you're invited to join us. This magical venue is the most powerful setting for transformation to take place and due to its remote location and outdoor spaces, it's the perfect place to escape the pandemic. We do have COVID protocols in place, of course and we just announced all the details, so just visit plantstrong.com today to learn more. And, if you're interested, register to join us this fall from October 11th to October 16th. I can't wait to meet you. Okay, let's get back to my conversation with Michael Jacobson.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, you have a great chart in the book and it shows where the sodium is coming from in the American diet and yeah, like you said, 75% is coming from the packaged goods, about five percent is coming from the salt shaker. Another six percent when you cook with the salt and then, I think it's important for people to know, that maybe eight to 10% is just coming, it's naturally occurring sodium that's in the food, like in potatoes or the carrots or the celery or the spinach, right?
Michael Jacobson:
Yeah or the seafood or the meat. There's always some sodium present and that's why these isolated tribes have been able to survive. And you need sodium and they get it from the nuts and berries and sometimes seafood, an occasional rabbit maybe. So one interesting thing to do is to go to the store and look at almost any section, soup, salad dressings, hot dogs, and look at different brands of essentially the same product and you typically will find quite a range of sodium levels. One food might have 25 or 50% more sodium than a different brand of the same food and then if you look for not exactly the same food, like Italian dressing. Don't look at that, but here's an example, Swiss cheese. You can find slight differences between brands but big differences when you compare Swiss cheese to cheddar cheese or American cheese particularly the saltiest, or almost the saltiest of cheeses. So just making a relatively small switch from American cheese to Swiss cheese, you save a lot of sodium. And if you look at the soups, and you can find some brands that have 300 milligrams per serving, most have 800 milligrams and one trick that companies ... And so, there are a lot of tricks to reducing sodium.
Michael Jacobson:
One trick is to use potassium chloride to replace sodium chloride. Potassium is an antidote to sodium. Potassium helps lower blood pressure in people that have high pressure and it's slightly salted so companies can use potassium chloride to replace some of the sodium chloride and that's why Campbell's Tomato Soup is lower in sodium than most other Campbell's soups because there's some potassium chloride there.
Rip Esselstyn:
So why aren't all the companies using potassium chloride?
Michael Jacobson:
Well, one reason is that potassium chloride has a bad reputation, for two reasons. One is on its own, it can taste extremely bitter, but when it's mixed with food and sodium chloride then there's no problem with bitterness and the second reason is people perceive potassium chloride as a chemical and God forbid we should be eating chemicals, but of course every food is just a bunch of chemicals. So companies with clean labels, companies have been trying to get rid of food additives and so many companies have feared putting potassium chloride in their foods and on the labels, but it sounds like Campbell's soup hasn't had any problems selling tomato soup and I think they're going to see much more of it especially because last December the Food and Drug Administration allowed companies to say potassium salt, not potassium chloride and that sounds a lot more appetizing. So that's one trick, but a lot of companies could simply use less salt. Forget the tricks, but there are other tricks.
Michael Jacobson:
So some of the cracker makers only salt one side of the cracker and that maybe cuts down 50% and we see a fair number of reduced sodium foods like tortilla chips, potato chips, peanuts. It's easy to get the full sodium, but low sodium or reduced sodium are perfectly fine.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, and the reason why you can be so effective with reducing the sodium with potato chips, crackers, and chips is because just a little bit of sodium, salt on the outside it hits all those taste receptors on your tongue and it feels like there's a lot when in fact there isn't, unlike bread where it's baked in there and you can't hardly notice it. Another comment I want to make because you mentioned cheese there and of course this is the Plant Strong podcast where we're trying to stop worshiping at the church of cheeses seven days a week, so I'm hoping the listeners there are staying away from the Swiss and the cheddar cheeses and all that sodium and all that fat.
Michael Jacobson:
Well, I haven't looked at vegan cheeses. I have no idea how much sodium is in them, so that would be fun to look at.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, I'm sure it's a shocker. I'm sure it's not pretty.
Michael Jacobson:
Yeah, so now the political battle is, let me go back ten years. In 2010, the National Academy of Sciences told the Food and Drug Administration that there was no progress in reducing sodium during the years when FDA was encouraging voluntary action. The National Academy of Sciences recommended mandatory limits on sodium in different food categories. It took six years for the FDA to come out with voluntary, not mandatory, voluntary limits on sodium.
Michael Jacobson:
That was four and a half years ago. The FDA never finalized those proposed guidelines. If all companies adhered to those guidelines, that would bring sodium consumption down to the recommended 2300 milligrams a day, so now the challenge for the Biden Administration is to finalize those voluntary guidelines and see how they work. The FDA, those guidelines had a two year goal and then a ten year final goal. Ten year's crazy. It's crazy to wait ten years, but the FDA needs to finalize at least the two year goal and then see what kind of progress has been made. If not enough progress was made, then the FDA should institute some mandatory limits because every year we're losing 50 to 100,000 people prematurely, totally unnecessarily.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, if it's just voluntary, I mean how many companies are going to abide by a voluntary mandate? I mean, don't you think it has to be made mandatory?
Michael Jacobson:
Yeah, it probably does though Britain adopted some voluntary guidelines back around 2005 and they pushed them real hard. They had a public education campaign using paid media advertising, very clever ads that made sure people knew about sodium, its harms, and to read labels.
Rip Esselstyn:
Was that with Sid the Slug?
Michael Jacobson:
Sid the Slug. That's right. Sprinkle salt on the slug and, I haven't tried it, but I suppose it dies and the second thing was to beat up on the food industry sometimes publicly, more generally privately and Britain found a 10 to 15% reduction in sodium consumption in six years. And remember, the goal is not 100%. The goal in Britain was also 33% so they got one thirds to one half of the way there in six years with a voluntary program.
Rip Esselstyn:
Nice.
Michael Jacobson:
I've been urging the FDA to, if they want a voluntary program, go ahead with it, but to really educate consumers. Get people reading labels, looking for lower sodium brands, and beating up on industry that could reduce sodium. Almost every company could reduce sodium. Some companies are making an effort already, but so that's where the battle lies.
Rip Esselstyn:
Do you know what is it about salt that enhances the flavor of everything that it's in?
Michael Jacobson:
I think it's really biologically that our tongue was evolved to look for salty foods as humans developed hundreds of thousands of years ago. Sodium was a rare ... Salt was a rare commodity and sodium was pretty unusual if we started as vegetarian, very little sodium in plant based foods, and there's a little more sodium in animal products. And so a preferences for sodium was evolution's way for encouraging us to chow down on salty foods so before restaurants, before packaged foods, before salt shakers, there was no problem at all, but now our tongue is overpowering our brain and we go for those salty pretzels and frozen dinners and soups and they taste good but it's pretty easy to get accustomed to less salty food. And if you go on a lower salt diet, for a month or two months you pretty much cure yourself of the desire for real salty foods.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, big time. I have found that, I've been on a ... not, just because of the way I eat, a lot of whole, plant based foods, a minimal amount of processed, packaged plant based foods that my sodium, my pallet has become so discerning with salt and if it's, if I have something like a typical, commercialized soup or something like that, it is almost unpalatable to me at this point which I'm pretty happy with.
Michael Jacobson:
Most people find that they don't miss it really, but there's things like soy sauce of course, loaded with salt and a lot of vegans really add seasonings to their foods. God forbid they use a salt shaker. One thing that can help is that every supermarket sells light salt. Morton makes light salt and some other companies do and that has 50% less sodium per teaspoon than regular salt and that's what I use as my general salt when a recipe calls for salt. The first thing I do is, if they say one teaspoon, I think, "Okay, I'll try half a teaspoon." And then I'll use light salt and that really brings the sodium down quite considerably.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh, that's a smart little tip. I've never thought, I didn't even know there was light salt out there.
Michael Jacobson:
And we shouldn't trick ourselves. A lot of vegans and vegetarians love to flaunt the sea salt and sea salt is really no better than regular salt. It might have a teeny bit more flavor, but laboratory tests I've seen say that they really don't and sea salt has as much sodium as regular salt.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, I think in your book, don't you say that almost all salt is in fact sea salt?
Michael Jacobson:
That's right. Yes. All seas are now mines into the depths of Kansas and so that's sea salt. It's also commercial, regular salt is highly purified. Sea salts are not purified to that extent, but the minerals that they talk about in the sea salt are typically vanishingly small and there's no nutritional benefit from those minerals.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right, you mentioned United Kingdom as an example of a country that's kind of doing things right to reduce the amount of sodium. Any other countries that are doing?
Michael Jacobson:
Yeah, Chile, Mexico, Uruguay, Peru, and Israel are trying different approach and what they've done is said, "You can add as much salt to your foods as you want, but you have to put a warning label on foods that are high in sodium and another warning label if they're high in sugar. Another one if they're high in saturated fat. Another if they're high in calories." So, they've set limits. Any food that has more than so much sodium, so much sugar has to have a warning label and they've seen some really dramatic reduction in sodium. I don't know about those other measurements, but at least sodium, they've seen some real reductions. Chile is the first country to do that. Canada was considering it and then I think pressure from industry stopped them, but that would be another approach. Not as effective as a mandatory limit, but it's an interesting approach.
Rip Esselstyn:
So those countries that did the warning labels, was that a mandatory?
Michael Jacobson:
Yeah, that's mandatory. And Israel, in a way, went one better and they defined a good food symbol that companies could use if the food is really healthy.
Rip Esselstyn:
In the book you have a whole chapter on the activities of the salt institute that has since disbanded.
Michael Jacobson:
That's right.
Rip Esselstyn:
Which is very interesting because they were founded in 1914 and they disbanded for whatever reason, maybe you'd like to talk about that, but one of the things that I found that was fascinating is that only three percent of salt that's out there in the world goes to food and the remainder goes to the roads and other uses.
Michael Jacobson:
Yeah, it's interesting. Trade Associations never die. They're always around to cause trouble, but the Salt Institute is the association of salt manufacturers and so it's Morton, Cargill, and a few other companies and I asked the former head of the Salt Institute why they care so much about table salt. It's only three percent of all salt and he said, "Look. They care about every product they make. Every product is a profit center and so they're going to defend every product." And so they've been a perpetual source of pro-salt propaganda for decades. They will target anyone who dares to criticize salt or salty foods and they lobbied the government. They published reports and books and videos, kind of a full service trade association, but amazingly a year ago, they died and they went out of business. I wasn't able to find out why they went out of business. The board members wouldn't return my phone calls, but it could be that the food industry and the salt manufacturers have seen the writing on the wall.
Michael Jacobson:
The World Health Organization, The American Heart Association, The Department of Agriculture, The National Academy of Sciences all say to cut down on salt and there's pressure overseas in Britain, Latin America and other countries to reduce salt and I think the industry knows that the low sodium movement is coming to the United States, voluntarily, mandatorily, whatever, but it's coming. And they might've just decided to stop wasting their money on this trade association that became just kind of buffoons where they're defending the indefensible. So, good riddance.
Rip Esselstyn:
Michael, you seem like you're a bit of a gentle tiger and you're kind of fearless. Do you find that that's something ... Have you always been like that or is that just something where you're trying to basically go for the truth and make things right and be a health advocate for basically the public interest? Do you feel like you're a tough guy?
Michael Jacobson:
When I started 15 years ago, I was rowdier, shall we say, really accusing the food industry of producing nothing but junk food and I wouldn't get much arguments, so I used a fair amount of rhetoric, but they have toned down partly because the issue, the food supply has gotten much more diverse. Things are more complicated. Vegans barely existed 50 years ago. Vegetarians were considered weird and all the food was junk. Now you can go to a grocery store, not just Whole Foods, and you can find a lot of whole grain products, products lower in sodium, vegan kinds of products, a much wider range.
Michael Jacobson:
In restaurants, if you search around you can often find a healthy food and now they're all these salad restaurants, so things have gotten more subtle. All the big food companies have bought organic brands or vegetarian kinds of brands, so the big food companies, I no longer see them as being pure evil. They're hedging their bets. They see America moving in a healthier direction albeit slowly, but we're moving I think in the right direction and Whole Foods, to take kind of a big example, has been a pressure on the whole food industry, the supermarket industry in particularly, to provide more fruits and vegetables and a healthier mix of foods.
Michael Jacobson:
So kind of the vituperation that was appropriate 50 years ago doesn't jive with reality now, so I think my tone has changed but from the very beginning we really based my advocacy on scientific facts. And when I started my book on food additives, I started in 1970. I looked at other books on food additives and there were maybe three or four out there and the authors tried to find something wrong with every single food additive and the fact is most of them are harmless. And so my book, Eaters Digest acknowledged that this food additive is safe and this other one is questionable, should be studied more and then that one over there is probably harmful. So we look for, what are the problems? Saturated fats, high sugar foods, trans fat, sodium, refined grains rather than whole grains. In all those areas there's been quite a bit of scientific evidence.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well you should be super proud of what you've done over the last 50 plus years. It's pretty remarkable. Way to go.
Michael Jacobson:
Yeah, thank you very much, but when you look at some things, please don't gauge my effectiveness by looking at sodium consumption. Despite years of effort, it hasn't changed or obesity. We've been pushing a healthy diet to reduce obesity which has done nothing but become more and more prevalent in our society.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, there's a confluence of factors that are going on right now that are making that a challenge. No doubt about it. So in your book, you mentioned that you have some hope. There's some companies and schools, and even the federal government, that are doing some things to kind of curb the sodium here in America. Can you give me some examples?
Michael Jacobson:
Well I mentioned two things for the Food and Drug Administration. One is that they are allowing the term potassium salt to be used in place of salt and potassium salt could have a huge impact on our sodium consumption and the FDA has proposed voluntary guidelines. Hopefully we'll finalize those and maybe lead to some progress. Most of the big companies like McDonald's and General Mills and Unilever and Nestle all say that they're lowering sodium levels and they're doing it and they're making some slow progress. So I'm hopeful there. Supermarkets, the reason they're offering some lower sodium foods, the big companies are making some lower sodium foods, they're not all mainstreamed, but when you see Campbell's reducing sodium in Campbell's condensed tomato soup, they reduced it by about a third. That shows that's there some real progress in mainstream foods and it's the Department of Agriculture that oversees school foods. The Obama Administration had rules to gradually lower sodium levels on school breakfasts and lunches and they had three stages. First stage went into effect. The Trump administration delayed the second stage by five years and it killed the third stage completely, all under the guise of, "Let's make school meals great again." Making them more harmful. And the Biden administration needs to get back to the old rules and get kids accustomed to less salty foods.
Rip Esselstyn:
Are you in Washington, D.C right now?
Michael Jacobson:
Yes. I'm in Washington and that's where Center for Science and Public Interest is.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. I knew that. I didn't know if you still though personally resided in the D.C. area. You've been there for how long then? 15 years?
Michael Jacobson:
1970, 51 years.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow. Do you like it there?
Michael Jacobson:
Love it, yeah. It's a wonderful, interesting, beautiful city.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, I bet. So, I'd love for you to let our listeners know, what are some things that they can do in their kitchens, when they're buying food at the grocery store, that can allow them to get their sodium intake at 2300 or below consistently? I know your last chapter in the book you kind of talk about, what can I and my family do and I love what you said earlier about something as simple as buying light salt.
Michael Jacobson:
That's right. That's one simple thing. Another thing is when you're shopping, look for lower sodium brand. In any food category, you can probably find something lower in sodium than what you're consuming. Fill up on natural, whole foods. Do more cooking. Rely less on packaged foods and eat out less. People hate when I say that, but eat out less. If you do eat out, try to split entrees with a friend. Split appetizers with a friend or bring half of them home. Portions are typically huge. You can make a meal last for two meals and cut down on your sodium. So those are ... That's all people have to do. It isn't hard.
Rip Esselstyn:
Those are simple, simple very effective action steps that everybody should take. One of our guidelines when it comes to reading package labels is we want to keep the milligrams of sodium in a one-to-one ration with the number of calories per serving and then that usually is a good indicator that you're not going to OD on the packaged sodium that's in that product.
Michael Jacobson:
Yeah, that's a good guideline. I use that in my book. Roughly a one-to-one ratio. If you get to two-to-one, that's a real problem.
Rip Esselstyn:
But three-to-one, no problem. Well, what's interesting, you've done really a phenomenal job with this book. It's so comprehensive. I think you've got 11 or 12 chapters and each one is just, really it's fascinating. The work and the research that you put into putting together this book, Salt Wars and I commend you on it. Nicely done, Michael.
Michael Jacobson:
Thank you very much, Rip. Thank you very much for having me on the podcast.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh, listen, my pleasure and I wish I would have had you several years ago, but as soon as I saw Salt Wars. And can you, do you have it right there in front of you? Can you show it to people? Salt Wars: The Battle Over the Biggest Killer In the American Diet. There it is and we'll be sure to put a link in our show notes for people that want to get that.
Michael Jacobson:
Thank you so much.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh, my pleasure. Hey, Michael, huge congrats on everything you've done in your career. I love the fact that you're just keep on keeping on and my mother and father wanted me to tell you hello and they wish you all the best.
Michael Jacobson:
That's great. Thanks so much.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, okay.
Michael Jacobson:
Take care.
Rip Esselstyn:
Peace. Engine Two. Keep it Plant Strong.
Michael Jacobson:
Bye Bye.
Rip Esselstyn:
Simply put, Michael Jacobson is a warrior and even though change doesn't always happen as quickly as we would like, we have people like Michael to thank for initiating big change in the first place. The needle is moving in the right direction. For more information on his book, Salt Wars and other episode resources, visit plantstrongpodcast.com. Thank you for listening to the Plant Strong podcast. You can support the show by taking a quick minute to follow us wherever you listen to your favorite podcast, leaving us a positive review, and sharing the show with your network is another great way to help us reach as many people as possible with the exciting news about plants. Thank you in advance for your support. It means everything. Have you had your own Galileo moment that you'd like to share? What happened when you stepped into the arena and shed the beliefs that you thought to be true? I'd love to hear about it.
Rip Esselstyn:
Visit plantstrongpodcast.com to submit your story and to learn more about today's guest and sponsors. The Plant Strong podcast team includes Carrie Barrett, Laurie Kortowich, Ami Mackey, Patrick Gavin, and Wade Clark. This season is dedicated to all those courageous truth seekers who weren't afraid to look through the lens with clear vision and hold firm to a higher truth, most notably my parents, Dr. Caldwell B. Esselstyn, Jr. and Ann Crile Esselstyn. Thanks for listening.
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