#178: Dr. Uma Naidoo - This is Your Brain on Food
Dr. Uma Naidoo, Nutritional Psychiatrist, Chef, and Author of This is Your Brain on Food
Dr. Uma Naidoo has been called a “triple threat” for her work and knowledge in food and medicine. Not only is she a psychiatrist, but she’s also a trained professional chef and nutritionist. If there was ever anyone more qualified to talk about the impact that foods have on our brain and well-being, it’s Dr. Naidoo.
In addition to her work at Harvard and Mass General, Dr, Naidoo is also the author of the best-selling book, This is Your Brain on Food. where she explains the ways in which food can influence our mental health and how a plant-forward diet can improve our mood and help treat and prevent a wide range of psychological and cognitive health issues, from ADHD to anxiety, depression, OCD, and others.
We also go through each of her six pillars of nutritional psychiatry:
Be Whole, Eat Whole - and why sugar is a problem
Eat the Rainbow, including seasonings and spices that provide brain power
The Greener the Better
Tap Into Your Body’s Intelligence
Avoid Anxiety Triggering Foods
This Lifestyle is a Marathon and Not a Sprint
In addition, Dr. Naidoo also shares:
Spices and foods for optimizing brain power
Tips for treating Seasonal Affective Disorder
Foods that boost happiness and relaxation
Yes, it’s a marathon, but It’s worth it. In the spirit of “New Year’s Resolutions,” resolve to make your mental and physical health a priority one meal at a time. Every step in the right direction is a step towards a better you.
About Uma Naidoo, MD
Michelin-starred chef David Bouley described Dr. Uma Naidoo as the world’s first “triple threat” in the food and medicine space: a Harvard trained psychiatrist, Professional Chef graduating with her culinary schools’ most coveted award, and a trained Nutrition Specialist. Her nexus of interests have found their niche in Nutritional Psychiatry.
Dr. Naidoo founded and directs the first hospital-based Nutritional Psychiatry Service in the United States. She is the Director of Nutritional and Lifestyle Psychiatry at Massachusetts General Hospital (MGH) & Director of Nutritional Psychiatry at MGH Academy while serving on the faculty at Harvard Medical School.
She was considered Harvard’s Mood-Food expert and has been featured in the Wall Street Journal.
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Rip Esselstyn:
It's the New Year, and just about everybody is trying to convince themselves that it's time for a new you and a better you. We're telling ourselves, "Let's restrict what we're eating here, and starve ourselves here, and muster up the motivation to overhaul everything that we're doing each and every day." Well, my Plant-Strong cousins, I'd like to suggest that we take a different approach this year. What if you made 2023 about getting more? What if instead of focusing all our energy on taking things off our plates, we concentrated on what we should be getting more of, like fiber that 97% of Americans are deficient in?
I'm talking about more fruits and vegetables that most Americans aren't eating any of. I'm talking about green, leafy, cruciferous vegetables, more whole grains, more water each day. If we just shifted our thought pattern from one of scarcity to one of abundance, I think that we'd find ourselves easily falling into daily habits that we love and that love us back. If you're not sure where to begin, come on over to plantstrongfoods.com, and try any number of our spectacular and tasty products, and see how good it feels to eat stronger food.
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
The reality is that the plant polyphenols in plant foods are super helpful for our gut. It's not just the colors. It's actually the biodiversity of actual foods that come to our gut that make the microbes healthier. It's the different colors of the polyphenols, so carrots have carotenoids. Blueberries have antioxidants, things like that. So, these different colors and breakdown products help the microbes thrive. They interact in that environment. They bring biodiversity to the gut. They also bring fiber, which is super important to help those microbes thrive.
Rip Esselstyn:
I'm Rip Esselstyn, and welcome to the PLANTSTRONG podcast. The mission at PLANTSTRONG is to further the advancement of all things within the plant-based movement. We advocate for the scientifically proven benefits of plant-based living, and envision a world that universally understands, promotes, and prescribes plants as a solution to empowering your health, enhancing your performance, restoring the environment, and becoming better guardians to the animals we share this planet with. We welcome you wherever you are on your PLANTSTRONG journey, and I hope that you enjoy the show.
Here we are. It's the beginning of 2023, and I'm sitting here wondering, where in the world did 2022 go? It just went by in an absolute blink of an eye, and I'm just stunned and amazed. But here we are, and I feel so great that 2023 is going to be a really spectacular year for so many of us. I can't think of a better way to start 2023 than with a really wonderful and timely conversation on food mood and improving our mental health than with Dr. Uma Naidoo. Now, she has been called a triple threat for her work and knowledge in food and medicine. Catch this, not only is she a psychiatrist, but she's also a trained professional, award-winning chef, and a nutritionist.
So if there was ever anyone more qualified to talk about the impact that foods have on our brain and wellbeing, it's Dr. Naidoo. Now, in addition to her work at Harvard University and Mass General, Dr. Naidoo is also the author of the bestselling book, This is Your Brain on Food, where she explains the ways in which food can influence our mental health, and how a plant-leaning diet can improve our mood and help treat and prevent a wide range of psychological and cognitive health issues from ADHD to anxiety, depression, OCD, and many others.
We also go through and talk about her six pillars of nutritional psychiatry, including eating whole foods, eating the rainbow, loading up on our green, leafy vegetables, which you guys know we're a huge fan of at PLANTSTRONG, and tapping into our body's intelligence, and realizing that any sort of change, both physical and mental, is a marathon and not a sprint, but you guys know it is so absolutely worth. It in the spirit of New Year's resolutions, let's resolve to make our mental and physical health a priority one meal at a time, because every step in the right direction, it's a step towards a better you.
Let's welcome Dr. Uma Naidoo. All right, Dr. Uma Naidoo, welcome to the PLANTSTRONG Podcast.
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
Hi, Rip. it's great to meet you. Thanks for inviting me.
Rip Esselstyn:
It's really a pleasure to meet you as well. May I ask, where are you right now?
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
Right now, I'm actually in New York, so I'm based between Boston and New York these days, and that's where I am.
Rip Esselstyn:
When you say New York, is that the city?
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
The city, yes. I'm in Manhattan.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow. Do you like the city?
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
I do. It's actually... It's busy. It's fun, and it's very festive at the moment, so I'm happy to be having a few quiet moments up here.
Rip Esselstyn:
I bet you are. Well, let's dive in. The thing that I think people probably talk about you is that you have a triple threat that is unlike anyone that I know that's ever been on the PLANTSTRONG podcast. You're a psychiatrist. You're also a nutritionist, and you're also a chef, which is quite a combination. I'd love to start out this conversation by asking you. Let's start with psychiatry. What got you so jazzed and excited to go into the field of psychiatry?
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
I think since I was a child, I was always either a problem fixer or someone who liked to chat to other people, so I loved people. When I began medical school, I just noticed a natural affinity to those classes and those subjects. So, I had a pretty strong idea that that was where I would end up. I feel like I did the right thing for my career, but it came from being very much a people person.
Rip Esselstyn:
So, why medical school as opposed to something else?
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
Good point. So when I was three, full disclosure, I wanted to be an astronaut. I probably had no idea what it meant, but I guess I knew or learned the word, but I outgrew that. But in real life, Rip, I was surrounded by a family that were largely scientists, so many doctors in the medical field, a couple of Ayurvedic practitioners, teachers. It was definitely a strong theme in my family, my mom's siblings, et cetera, so I feel like that was an influence. I would spend the daytime with my grandmother and my grandfather who my maternal grandparents, and spent...
I was a preschool dropout. You should know that too. I refused to go. Somehow I got away with it, and I would hang out with them because they were much more fun. But from them, I also learned really healthy eating habits and things like yoga and meditation. So, there was that very strong influence there as well. Whilst my uncles and aunts and my mom were all physicians, and there was that strong science background, there was this holistic background too. I feel that that just was naturally a direction I went in, and I felt comfortable with, and so it wasn't a dilemma for me to choose medical school.
Rip Esselstyn:
Did you grow up here in the States?
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
I grew up in South Africa as a child, and I moved here to study. That's where my roots are. I'm fourth generation Indian in terms of parents, grandparents, great grandparents from South India.
Rip Esselstyn:
That's psychiatrist. Now, what about... What came first? Was it you deciding that you wanted to become a award-winning chef or a nutritionist?
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
It happened in no particular order. Let me explain a little bit about that. All of these pieces, Rip, are just not linked in my life. Hindsight is now 2020 and all of that as people say, but I wanted to be a doctor. I wanted to be a psychiatrist. When I began to study of psychiatry and seeing patients, and even in residency, I just felt like there was this gap. We were not asking people if they were exercising. We were prescribing medications which had devastating side effects, weight gain, and metabolic side effects, but we were not asking them what they were eating.
That just didn't make sense to me. But earlier on when I was still studying, Julia Child was my food hero, because I couldn't afford cable TV, and she was on public television. I was still learning to cook, and she was great inspiration to me. Come full circle with all of this, when I began residency, I recognized there was a gap, and I felt like I hadn't learned nutrition in medical school, so I needed to study that. But in terms of culinary school, it really was because I felt I wanted to follow that passion in my life.
When I realized that Julia Child, who actually is a patron of the school I went to, realized that she did this really late in life, she did it as a second career, I thought, "Well, if she could do it, then I'm not that old. I can do it." That's what took me to culinary school. I really felt that unknowingly, it contributed in such a meaningful way to the work I was doing, because it put the pieces together for me, and suddenly those different parts became one. That is-
Rip Esselstyn:
Were you going to culinary school at the same time you were in medical school?
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
No, just after. So when I completed residency and as a junior attending, I felt like, "This was something I wanted to do. When should I do it? There's never a perfect time." It really happened when I was able to move. I worked for a very long number of years there. I worked an excessive number of hours to complete culinary school, but I did it in a way that my patients were taken care of, coverage was arranged, and that I had enough hours to be cooking. But when I think back too, Rip, I think I must have been driven by passion, because I was probably so exhausted that I didn't recognize.
Rip Esselstyn:
Incredible, absolutely incredible. I mean, what did your other residents think of what you were doing? Were they-
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
By then, I would compete the residency, so it was mostly my peers, and they probably thought it was crazy. I mean, they probably thought, "Well, I'm not sure what she's doing," but I did it in a way that was equitable to people, so I made sure my patients were taken care of. That was the most important thing. When you're a junior attending, you just don't want to have to be covering for lots of people all the time, because you're so busy yourself. I think that they probably did think I was nuts. But that being said, I apparently was having fun, because it was one of the best phases of my life.
Rip Esselstyn:
Then from this, from this psychiatry and then becoming a chef and a nutritionist, so when did you go to school to get your nutrition chops?
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
That was just between medical school and residency, around that time. All of these, things I almost had to study together, because I was doing things out of the box, but you somehow find the time to do it if you really want to.
Rip Esselstyn:
So, you have a practice that you call nutritional psychiatry, right?
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
Yes.
Rip Esselstyn:
Is there anybody else that you know of that practices something that's that kind of niche and specialized?
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
This is interesting, Rip, because I think a few people practice this way, and I'm excited about that, because really one of my biggest things that I'm doing right now is working on an educational program, because with the event of my book, many people just want to know how they can practice this way, and I want to spread the message. So, it's really become my mission. I have really focused at Mass General on the lifestyle measures, but on nutrition and metabolism, because one of the things you realize as a prescribing psychiatrist, so I still on occasion prescribe medications when it's needed, is that the medications we prescribe all have severe metabolic side effects. That's one thing.
The other thing is that we are now understanding through research that metabolism is so closely associated with our mental health type two diabetes, problems with insulin resistance, that type of thing. So putting that all together, to my knowledge, there isn't a clinic that I'm aware of in the United States or elsewhere that is doing nutritional and metabolic psychiatry as we are. That's a dual focus that we are trying to bring forward, and trying to help more people with.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right. In doing my research for this interview, I did see that you have founded, and you direct the first hospital-based nutritional psychiatry service in the United States at Massachusetts General Hospital, so kudos to you on that. That's fantastic.
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
Thank you.
Rip Esselstyn:
Really-
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
I have to say, and thank you, I appreciate that. I couldn't do it without the support of senior leadership in my department and hospital who felt that this was something they were willing to support. It could so easily have been shut down by someone who didn't have the vision. One of my mentors and the chair of my department is one of the first people who studied methylfolate and folate back in the day, and associated it with mood. So, I think I ended up really fortunate there, because it's definitely not an easy barrier to break through. I'm fortunate that I made it, that I was able to do it.
Rip Esselstyn:
You mentioned your book that you have in the background. I actually have a copy of it right here as well.
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
Thank you.
Rip Esselstyn:
This is Your Brain on Food. I think it's really remarkable, because I'm almost 60 years old, and it just seems to me like in the last really 15 to 20 years, we have recognized, when I say we, I mean more and more than medical establishment, but also individuals, that food has a direct impact on our health. I can tell you when I was growing up, people didn't really care what you put in your mouth. As long as you burn it off, it's all good. My father actually has one of the longest running long tool studies showing that you can actually prevent reverse heart disease by eating a whole food, low-fat, plant-based diet.
So, to me, it only makes sense that food is mood. Mood is food, however you want to say that. This is your brain on food. I think that the whole goal in you writing the book, and obviously, you can describe it better than I can, but your goal is to show people how to use diet to achieve wellbeing in every aspect of mental health.
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
Yes. That is absolutely correct. I want to share, because you asked about my clinic, that the model of KI practice is a holistic, functional, and integrated approach. So when I mentioned yoga and meditation, whether it's exercise, whether it's a plant-forward diet, a plant-strong diet, hydration, mindfulness, mindful practices, yoga, Tai Chi, whatever it might be, I think these are really important for people to incorporate in their mental wellbeing. The pillar that we work on is nutrition and metabolism, but all of those things really matter, because putting it together for people in my clinical experience, I have found to be helpful.
Rip Esselstyn:
No, I couldn't agree with you more as far as this being a holistic approach, and everything that you just said there, whether it's nutrition, whether it's Tai Chi, yoga, being mindful, and meditation, which I want to get to because I know that's something that you started again after you had a brush with something. But in reading your book, I noticed that you say that mental health issues affect almost one in five Americans right now.
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
Yes.
Rip Esselstyn:
I mean, that's a substantial amount.
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
That was before that statistic was before. I personally think that that is probably much higher now, but I don't have the exact number yet from research. What we do know is that as we have emerging from this time, let's say, there is a much higher number of individuals with new onset of depression, anxiety, cognitive disorders, sleep problems, trauma, and substance abuse are some of the leading issues. So, we know that mental health has always almost been a silent pandemic, but what happened with COVID-19 is it almost...
It really was uncovered, and people are just suffering so much more. One of the things that people are suffering the most with is just a sense of anxiety, just not knowing or anticipating what's to come next, living with that inner field red.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, so I think that's a great segue. Do you mind if I call you Uma?
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
Nope. That works.
Rip Esselstyn:
You mentioned anxiety there. So, if somebody was to come to you, and they're suffering from some pretty severe anxiety, what would you do? Would you go through what does a typical day look like for them from breakfast, lunch, dinner, exercise, mindfulness, all that?
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
I'd certainly want to take... What I've done is I always do a complete and thorough mental health exam and history taking, which in my medical training was definitely a focus. In other words, in order to understand a person, you really need to know what they're doing. Obtaining that information is super helpful. I also ask people to log two consecutive days of food in the past week. I generally try to get that information live from them when I'm seeing them because we know from data that recall is not that great. So unless you're actually logging everything that you're eating and drinking, many people under or over report.
I have a good sense of their actual history, their mental health history, their family history, everything. Then I understand what they're eating. Most importantly, I reverse engineer the fact that I want to understand the symptom that they're coming in with. This is important. It may seem like an obvious thing, but sometimes people come in with a question of anxiety. But in speaking with them, I uncover that the anxiety is actually related to an underlying traumatic event, or I find out that their inability to focus is related to a sense of anxiety.
They're coming in thinking they have ADHD, but actually when you tease apart the different symptoms, they're suffering from nuance and severe anxiety that is preventing them and keeping them from the ability to focus and do what they would normally do. So, it's very nuanced, and that's where conversation and a proper history is very helpful.
Rip Esselstyn:
You mentioned all these, and you go through in the book, and each chapter is a different kind of mental health condition going from depression, and anxiety, and PTSD, and ADHD, and dementia, and brain fog, and obsessive compulsive disorder, insomnia and fatigue. So, when you analyze each one of these, does each one have a specific prescription, or is it fair to say that most of these, the underlying prescription is very similar?
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
There are lots of similarities. I think one of the things I would like your audience to understand is nutritional psychiatry is not at a point of being prescriptive yet. The hope is that as we have more ongoing research that we will, in fact, it'll be a dream to be able to literally, and I know that was not what you meant, but be able to prescribe food versus prescribe medication as the first line. We are not at that point, but we have a lot of... This was one of the most important reasons for my book was that I felt I wanted to bring forward the amount of research that does exist, and is it definitive?
Is it ever changing? Yes, all of those. It is not always definitive. It is ever changing, and it's always nuanced. It's also highly personalized now, but the reality is this is not soft science any longer. There are things we understand about the gut microbes, gut microbiome. There are things we understand about brain science that has improved and evolved. So, it's helpful for people to use this as a guide in relation to the question you asked me, but there are lots of overlaps between things like I think a plant rich diet, or this instance, a plant-strong diet is one of the basis that will help any mental health condition.
Then it gets nuanced with the different conditions, things and some of the nuances, actually foods that can be problematic for certain conditions. For example, I wouldn't ordinarily ask people to just exclude gluten unless they had celiac disease or non-celiac gluten intolerance or problem with it, but a bit because for me it's the quality of whole grain that you're eating. A processed sliced loaf of bread is very different from an artisanal loaf of sourdough bread, which is fermented. So, what if it is that someone's eating?
We have to understand the context because there has been an association in certain studies of gluten and anxiety, and some people after a short elimination of gluten-related products may actually have an improvement in symptoms, and I've seen that in my clinic. So, for each person, it might be slightly different, but there are some foods that you wouldn't think to exclude that are problematic for certain conditions.
Rip Esselstyn:
Since COVID-19, what have you seen more than anything else as far as mental health conditions? Would it be depression, anxiety, PTSD, or can you pinpoint one as being like, "Wow, I can't believe how this has gone off the charts since COVID?"
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
Anxiety. Anxiety has gone off the charts most across all demographics, across all countries, across all cultures. I think that people are just... It's difficult to actually describe why or how it's continued to be such a problem. They also... In early COVID, for the first time in my career, there was a shortage of Zoloft, which is very frequently prescribed for anxiety and depression, but it's a leading SSRI. The other name is sertraline. For the first time in my career, it was on shortage in the United States by June of 2020.
It was also these new cases of new onset anxiety. Now as we move, we're entering what would be the third fall of this pandemic, those numbers are still pretty high, so people are... The new onset diagnoses of anxiety, and anxiety is so closely linked to mood that they're both high, but I still, in my practice, just see many more cases of anxiety.
Rip Esselstyn:
Good. Thank you. So in your book, you talk about how you yourself had a cancer diagnosis. Is that correct?
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
That's correct, yes.
Rip Esselstyn:
How long ago was that?
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
That was in the last decade.
Rip Esselstyn:
Last decade. What was interesting to me is you talked about how you had to go from being a clinician to a patient, and you had to then literally walk the walk. I'm sure that that's made your practice a little bit more probably effective and maybe more from the heart. Would you agree?
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
Anyway, I would like to think I've always had a heart for my patients, but I totally understand what you're saying. I think what is very true is that when you see both sides of that equation, and you're both the patient, and you've experienced being a physician, you really appreciate things from a different perspective. One of the things that taught me many things, and I'll share that with you, but one of the things that really taught me is how empowering food can be. Because on the first day of my chemotherapy treatment, one of the things that I... I fortunately have not necessarily suffered from anxiety, but on that day, I really couldn't settle myself down.
I was super anxious, hadn't slept well. Part of it was I knew the medications I was facing, and I was very worried about all of the side effects. It was a true learning moment for me, and it ended up being an aha moment for me unexpectedly, because I was preparing for that treatment, and feeling just like I couldn't settle myself down at home. I was making myself the tea that my grandmother had taught me to make, this golden latte. It had all my favorite ingredients. I was thinking to myself, "Why am I not doing what I tell people to do every day?"
Why? Because I'm not used to being in the patient role. So, I caught myself for a moment, and I realized that I wasn't tapping into the knowledge I had. It wasn't that I wasn't eating healthy, but what more could I do to enhance how and what I was doing? It really did make a difference, because every week when I went in for my chemotherapy, my doctors would ask me, "What did you pack for lunch this week? What are you eating? What are you doing, because you're looking good, and you don't have the side effects that we would expect, and we're happy for that, but we really want to learn what you're doing."
I realized that I unexpectedly became the blueprint for the practice that I run today, and the work that I do, but it was a very humbling experience. As you said at the beginning, I think it gave me a very different perspective on how I work with people, and understanding then how powerful making a nutrition or food decision can be. Because you can discuss it with your doctor and you should, but you can make that choice. Whereas when you're given a prescription, the hope is that you will take it. It's a little bit of a discussion but...
Rip Esselstyn:
In a roundabout way, would you say it's fair to say that it was a gift of sorts?
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
I would say that. I think it was an unexpected gift. I'm fundamentally raised Hindu, and one of the things... My book is dedicated to my grandmother, my parents. One of the things they always taught me is what I think psychology and psychiatry calls "Positive reframing," but Hinduism calls it acceptance and karma, and you accept what it is, and you make the very best of whatever that experience is. I had been raised that way. When I first went into it, both having the psychological side of it as well, I can't say that on that first day I was all excited.
But as I went through it, and I saw how much control I could have over how I was eating, and what a difference that was literally making in my response to side effects, I realized that it was a powerful tool, and that I could really learn from it.
Rip Esselstyn:
You mentioned the dedication just a second ago. I wanted to ask you about that, because you say, "This book is dedicated to my beloved late father and Pinetown Granny, to my mom," and then you have in parentheses, who gave me the most important piece of advice in my life. I'd like to know what that is unless you just said what it is. "To my husband, without whom, this book would never have been materialized."
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
Right. So interestingly, Rip, so my late grandmother... Pinetown was actually the town in a suburb of Durban, where she lived. So, when I would hang out when I was a preschool dropout, I would be with her in Pinetown, and I'd be learning all these cool things. But interestingly, my mom is a double-boarded physician, now retired professor. She taught at one of the medical schools. She actually met my husband before I did. At some point, when I was still studying, she said to me, "There's this young man you really should meet." I said, "Why, mom? Why do I need to meet him?"
It ended up being that we subsequently met through friends or what happened, but she, I guess, as a mom knew that we would... She intuitively knew that we would pair up well, and so it was actually one of the best pieces of advice that I ever got. I do thank my mom for that, because probably without that little bit of a nudge, who knows, I may have ended up in a very different direction or place.
Rip Esselstyn:
Sometimes our parents definitely know.
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
Right.
Rip Esselstyn:
That's nice. Can I throw... I want to... You suggest that there's six pillars of nutritional psychiatry using food as medicine for mental health. Can I throw those out to you, and then can we have a conversation about each one of these?
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
We certainly can.
Rip Esselstyn:
Good. The number one that you have of the six is be whole, eat whole.
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
Correct. My example here is eat the orange, skip the store-bought orange juice. When you eat the whole food, you're getting all the nutrition, all the fiber, minerals, vitamins. When you're getting the store bought OJ, the fibers stripped of it. Despite what they tell you, there's a ton of added sugar, and it's just not the best option for you. So, always go towards the whole version of a food when you can, and try to limit the processed version of that same food.
Rip Esselstyn:
I couldn't agree with you more. You mentioned the sugar, for example, that's in the orange juice, which is very obviously concentrated, and you don't have the fiber. What are your thoughts on the impact of high sugar consumption, and what that does as far as inflammation, depression, because it seems to me everywhere I turn, I just can't believe how this country fuels itself with different types of simple sugars?
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
Sure. Our food system is infiltrated with high fructose corn syrup and other forms of sugar. There are 200, and the last check, and there's a repository for this, 262 other names for sugar in food labels in the United States.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh my god.
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
One of my favorites is brown rice syrup, because people are associating brown rice with slightly more whole grain better option, but brown rice syrup is just sugar. We are consuming it in ways that we don't understand. While we do need some sugar in natural forms, the issue is that our food system is engineered in a way that probably in many ways works against us, so it's for us, the consumer, to be aware of where those added sugars are, and to really limit where we take them, and whether it's processed, ultra processed food, fast foods. Fast food french fries have added sugars.
Research and development has shown that by adding sugar, simple sugar, you don't taste it, but it makes it hyper palatable, so you always upsize. Then when you buy the larger bag of fries, you eat the whole thing. It's because they're engineered to be hyper palatable, so this tricks our brain. Sugar's definitely a problem. I feel though that it's up to us to figure our way out, because food labels are not going to help us. If anything, they're going to label foods within the law, but it's not always the accurate message for the consumers. So, something labeled whole grain may have a percent of whole grain, but it may not be the number one ingredient in that food.
So, I think it's becomes really hard for a person buying food in this country to separate the noise between the, "Eat this, not that mentality," and then the label and what the label might say. Sugars are definitely problems. As we know that it's bad for the brain, and we know that it really causes so many problems for us beyond just type two diabetes, insulin resistance, poor metabolic health.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, and also, I think one of the primary things that you talk about in your book too is the gut-brain romance and how important that is. Sugar probably isn't doing our microbiome any favors either.
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
It isn't. The microbiome is when we include the microbes, the trillions of microbes along with the genetic material. But as much as there are good microbes there to do all of these amazing functions for us, including our mental health, there are also bad microbes, and they love sugar. They love the stuff that that's not good for us. When they thrive, and they are fed with things like sugar, their breakdown products of digestion are damaging and toxic to the gut lining.
The gut lining is a single layer of cells, and when that's damaged, over time, you not only develop inflammation in the gut and dysbiosis, which is an imbalance, you also develop damage to the gut lining, which becomes leaky gut and sternum permeability over time. It's definitely a problem and one which we need to be aware of.
Rip Esselstyn:
If you don't mind me asking, I just saw you take a swig of something there. That wouldn't happen to be your tequila turmeric recipe, would it?
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
It wouldn't. It's not yellow. Did I share the tequila turmeric recipe, because I created a healthy one?
Rip Esselstyn:
I saw it. I think it was on your Instagram, and you did... You were doing something in Mexico with Maria Shriver.
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
That's right. We created it, yes, for the Women's Alzheimer's Movement and a meeting they had. No, it's not tequila. I feel like... This is something, by the way, that really is a very big help in anxiety. I've seen people who feel dehydrated also experienced panic. Water is one of my favorite things, and I just always feel like not only can it offset hunger cues, because the signals for hunger and thirst are in a similar part of the brain. So often, if you have a hunger pang, or in the middle of a meeting, you really feel like you're super hungry, drink a little bit of water because quite often, you're thirsty, but those signals get mixed up in your brain. So, no, it's plain old water.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh no. No, that's a good piece of advice. Back to those pillars, so number two you say is eat the rainbow. I think we've all heard that, but I'd love to hear how you describe that.
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
Yes. It's something that get the eye roll from my patients, and I understand because we hear and say this a lot, but the reality is that the plant polyphenols in plant foods are super helpful for our gut. It's not just the colors. It's actually the biodiversity of actual foods that come to our gut that make the microbes healthier. It's the different colors of the polyphenols. So, carrots have carotenoids. Blueberries have antioxidants, things like that. These different colors and breakdown products help the microbes thrive. They interact in that environment.
They bring biodiversity to the gut. They also bring fiber, which is super important to help those microbes thrive. So, it's not just the pretty colors. It's much more. I guess that phrase just is the superficial description of what is actually happening, but there's a lot more, and it's a very powerful thing. It's a simple thing to do, but I like people to challenge themselves, and within a family or amongst friends set up challenges for how many different colors or different plants they can eat, and it becomes more fun that way.
Rip Esselstyn:
Talk to me for a second about seasonings that you recommend that have brain boosting effects.
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
I'll do some of my favorites, but there are many more in the book. I like turmeric, the pinch of black pepper. The black pepper activates the curcumin, and makes it about 2000% more bioavailable, so it's an easy hack that's worth doing. I love things like rosemary, parsley, thyme, Mexican oregano, garlic, ginger, just some of my very favorite things that I cook with all the time. Spices are sugar free, calorie free. As best you can, avoid the blends, because blends sometimes have added preservatives to make them work. So, just have the pure spice. That way, you are actually flavoring your food, doing your brain some good, and not necessarily packing on any added sugars or calories or even sodium.
Rip Esselstyn:
Great. I like it. This is one... Your third pillar is one that really speaks to me, and it's the greener, the better. You recommend four to six cups of some green leafies a day. Is that correct?
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
I do. I do. In fact, I think the more greens, the better, but sometimes people are a little freaked out by that. But if you've ever cooked spinach, you realize a two-pound bag ends up as a tiny amount. So, you realize that they contain a lot of water. They're very hydrating, but they're also very rich in folate, and low folate is associated with the low mood. So, just having those leafy greens gives you all those nutrients, vitamins, and fiber plus the folate that you need. Folate is vitamin B9. It's an easy thing to do.
Certainly if you're not a fan of leafy greens, start small, and try to build your way up, even added to a soup. Allow some spinach or whichever green you like to just wilt into the soup or your stew, because that way you can start to eat it if you're not a big fan of salad. It's an easy thing for us to do that you don't even have to cook it. It's something that you just make sure your salad is properly washed and prepped, and you're good to go.
Rip Esselstyn:
Our recommendation to our audience is just about the same, four to six servings a day of green leafies to really get those endothelial cells pushing out that nitric oxide. It'll keep our vessels nice and useful and elasticized. Let me ask you this. You have a whole bunch of recipes in this-
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
I do. I do.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, which makes complete sense since you are a incredible award-winning chef. You have a recipe in here for Brussels sprout. So many people tell me, "Rip, I would love to like Brussels sprouts, but I've yet to try a recipe that really speaks to me." Do you have one that you would recommend, maybe the one in your book?
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
Definitely, people should check out the one in my book, but one of the things I'm into at the moment, it is using the whole... People get a little bit intimidated by Brussels sprouts, because people don't know what to do with this little round ball, but it's actually so beautiful. I mean, you can... Then when you slice and chop them, that can be a lot of work for people, but I love actually steaming them so that they are soft and now smushing them down, and then sprinkling with different spices. You can go in a Mexican direction. You can go in an Indian flavor direction.
You could just go parsley, thyme, oregano, just deliciousness. If I'm roasting them, I usually use olive oil, salt and pepper, and roast them up in the oven. It's a super easy, delicious side dish. You can actually... I eat it as a snack sometimes, or I have it as a side dish, but it's... The biggest thing... I started cooking later in life, and part of what I'd like to convey to people is making things super simple, one or two steps most people can try. Rather than feel intimidated by, "What do I do with this vegetable?" Just do something that's simple. That's why I like this recipe.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh, I really... Well, I love that idea of steaming them, then putting them maybe on a cooking sheet with maybe some parchment paper. Then you what? Take a glass and then push it down.
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
Glass down. I've used... I'm a chef, so have my own little mallets, so I find that easier because I use parchment paper. You can also actually... I've seen it being done, and I've done it with paper towel as well, because remember they come out wet. So, that dries it a little bit. I smush them down, but you know what, a glass actually works pretty well, because you can control the smushing you do. Then you get this actually really nice thick bite. But rather than leave it that way, you just toss it in some nice spices and avocado oil, and roast it up in the oven. Then you get a little bit of crunchiness to it, which is great.
Rip Esselstyn:
I'm a huge fan of that. We're not so much a fan of oil. We try to stay away from olive oils, including some of the ones that you recommend, like avocado or olive oil. We just feel like they're the equivalent in the fat world to what white sugar is in the carbohydrate world. So, let me... The greener, the better. I like that. Do you have a favorite green leafy that you eat? Anything else?
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
When I can get dandelion greens are some of my favorite, but I don't always get them. So, it depends on the farmer's market I'm at. I also like watercress when I can get it, but if I'm just going... If all I see is a bunch of greens, I love arugula for the bite.
Rip Esselstyn:
What about kale? You like kale at all?
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
I do. I do love that. I do love kale.
Rip Esselstyn:
Dandelion greens, tell me what are they like? I don't think I've had dandelion greens, but maybe once or twice.
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
Think of it like any other green leafy vegetable. They're a longer stalk. Except for the root, you can use most of it. I like to either chop it up. They're also really pretty. I love that too.
Rip Esselstyn:
I have found, Uma, that I really like doing a chiffonade with my green leafies, especially when I put it in a salad. I find it much more palatable and just easier to eat.
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
Yes.
Rip Esselstyn:
Do you agree with that?
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
I agree with it. Traditionally, I know that in the United States, salads are always usually these big pieces of whatever the veggies are. But really in French cuisine, you're supposed to what we call a chopped salad in the U.S. Everything should be chopped to a size that you can chew it when you're eating your salad. You shouldn't actually have to slice things on the plate, so I love to do that, chopping up my lettuce, making everything bite sized, because then I can eat it more easily.
Rip Esselstyn:
I'm going to take a little bit of a detour here before I ask you about pillar number four. That is I noticed that you're a fan of sheet pan dinners. That sounds so just effective and easy. Can you tell me what is a sheet pan dinner?
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
Sheet pan dinners, whether for a single person, a couple, or just a few people in the family, I have sheet pan for baking is the one you probably is a little bit bigger than your cookie sheet pan. They come in different sizes, quarter sheet, half sheet, full sheet, but most regular home ovens are not big enough for the larger size, so stick with the half sheet pan. I use a piece of parchment paper on it, and I choose whatever my veggies are that I want to roast up, whatever proteins I'm using. I love chickpeas or a good source of tofu or something like that, but a lot of spices.
I always use a ton of spices. What you're basically doing is you're putting your whole meal on that sheet pan. For me, it might be that protein that I like, then my veggies together, some onion, some garlic, some of my spices, and then roasting it up. The idea is that everything is on that pan, so there's virtually no cleanup because the parchment paper keeps the pan clean, and so it's a light wash that you need to do. You have your whole dinner in one go. Part of it cooking effectively, in my opinion, is really the planning and the prep you do ahead.
To me, that's easy to do, and makes it for whether... Say you're just cooking for yourself. You have leftovers for a couple of days, or couple of meals if not more. If you're cooking for the whole family, the whole family can basically eat that same dinner, because you have all the components of a healthy balanced meal in one place.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right. Have you seen... There's a movie that just came out. Steven Spielberg directed it. I think it's called the Fabelmans. Have you heard of that?
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
Not yet. Not yet. I'm going to look for it.
Rip Esselstyn:
The reason is you mentioned how easy it is to clean up the sheet pan dinners. His mother growing up would just always have a big paper sheet that went over the whole dining room table. She would always use paper plates. At the end of dinner, they would just crumple everything together, and then just put it in the trashcan.
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
Sure. Interesting.
Rip Esselstyn:
Very interesting. All right, number four is tap into your body intelligence. I think this is really important, and I think a lot of people don't know what that means or how to do it.
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
I think it's really true, because one of the things I find is people often are responding to something that was related to a meal, but they don't put those facts together. That's because they're not really acknowledging or paying attention to their body intelligence. They'll tell me how they feel this afternoon slump, and they're feeling exhausted, and they're reaching for candy bar, a cookie, or a coffee, and they're just not sure why they're so exhausted. But often when you trace back to either the meals they've been eating over a period of time, including their breakfast and lunch as well as what they're drinking, you can start to piece that together.
I think just having that awareness becomes important for people to acknowledge, to honor within themselves that they're having a reaction. If they understood what it was, maybe they could simply change a habit, or change a food, or change how they're eating. That could make a very big difference.
Rip Esselstyn:
One of the things that I noticed is that you, I think, recommend that people be careful with gluten. Have you found that that is something that maybe is affecting people, and they're not aware of it?
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
In certain conditions, so not across the board, because gluten in a slice of processed white bread is very different from gluten in an artisanal loaf of sourdough bread, which has a fermentation and fermented starter. I've noticed in conditions like anxiety, there could be a correlation, and the only way we know if that could be a driving factor is if we do a slow elimination of it, and see how people feel and if the anxiety improves, that type of thing. So, I use it in that way.
I'm also super careful when I take that history, like we talked about, to see how much someone is eating a deli sandwich every single day that may not have the best source of bread in it.
Rip Esselstyn:
I'm going to skip number five for now, and just go straight to six, because I think it really is part and parcel of number four, which is, again, I'll repeat it, tap into your body intelligence. Number six, you say, is avoid anxiety-triggering foods, but part of... Don't you think part of that is being tapped into your body intelligence?
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
I think that it is, but the reason we separated it out is, a, because I see so much anxiety, and people don't associate anxiety with the food. They don't associate it with drinking enough water and remaining hydrated. They don't associate it with food, and always think it's something else. So, we felt it deserved a pillar of its own, but...
Rip Esselstyn:
Got it. Then coming back to number five, it's consistency and balance are key.
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
This is where it's a marathon and not a sprint. It's not the actual food on your plate today, or the number on your scale tomorrow. It's really being able to make a sustainable change in your nutrition that's going to be sustainable, and that you are going to be able to continue these habits over time. Continue some of them when you're on vacation, just be able to eat a certain way, and still have those days where you may be eating something that you wouldn't normally eat, that you would enjoy and would be tasty. We may know it's not the best for your brain or body, but you still have it, and you enjoy it.
You may take your children to a birthday party, and come across a cupcake. No one is saying you shouldn't eat it. What I'm suggesting is don't eat it as your staple food every day, but that you are consistently balancing that up with a healthy meal at the next time, or making healthier choices for the rest, the 80/20 rule of trying your best for the most part to eat healthier options and healthier foods. Then there's that 20% of time where you allow for some flexibility. Life may happen.
You may have a busy day. You may have rushed off to work without carrying your lunch bag or your breakfast or your snack. That may be a more challenging day, but it's about maintaining that balance over time.
Rip Esselstyn:
Let me ask you, because we're immersed in the holidays right now. We just went through Thanksgiving. You just posted on your Instagram a post about the health benefits of tryptophan, which obviously is it's a substance that's in Turkey, right?
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
It is. It's also in chickpeas though.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yes, so that was going to be my question. if you don't do Turkey, and you mentioned that the only ways to get tryptophan is in your food, and that-
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
Yes.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right.
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
That's why in some countries it's... Well, here, but it's a supplement as well, so that's the reason.
Rip Esselstyn:
All right, so chickpeas. So if you want that tryptophan, hit eat the chickpeas,
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
You can certainly eat. That's one of my favorites.
Rip Esselstyn:
You also have a post about foods that are really good at boosting happiness. You mentioned turmeric, greens, beans-
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
Saffron.
Rip Esselstyn:
... saffron, saffron. I think I've heard that saffron is more expensive than gold by the pound.
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
It actually is. Then this is actually a great example of where none of us eats a perfect diet, and there are always going to be some nutritional gaps, and supplementation is helpful in those instances. Saffron has a good amount of evidence related to mood. But when we cook, we use very little saffron in part because it's expensive. But also when you're flavoring something, you don't need a ton of saffron in it. This is a situation where I suggest to people that they speak to their doctors about a good supplement for them if they want to try that out for their mood.
Rip Esselstyn:
In one of your chapters, you talk about insomnia and fatigue. I saw on one of your Instagram posts you mentioned how move over melatonin or melatonin. Here comes GABA. What is GABA for people that are interested?
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
GABA is one of the neurotransmitters, and it's involved in the brain. It is certainly a substance upon which certain medications have been designed. I think just making sure that we are eating for the best benefit of really all the neurotransmitters, because there's such a hub of neurotransmitter production in the gut. Our gut health therefore becomes critical because all of this production, all of the interactions are happening there. 90 to 95% of serotonin or serotonin receptors on the gut gathers there as well, dopamine, so there's a lot going on.
Rip Esselstyn:
Do you like beets?
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
I do. I love them.
Rip Esselstyn:
Do you have a beet recipe that you recommend for people that like the Brussels sprouts that have a hard time with them that maybe-
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
Wait. Wait. I have some tips around beets, because say you're not cooking, or you don't know how to cook beets. You can actually buy them now steamed in certain supermarkets, and they will actually come vacuum packed and sealed and peeled. That may be a good way to get started. Usually, they're not adding... Check the package. They are not usually adding anything to the beets, but that's a good way to get started in case you are worried about messing your kitchen counter and your hands and all of that, but I think that we need to understand there are different colors of beets. There are the bright, beautiful purple beets, but there are also golden beets.
I like to steam them, peel them, steam them, and actually slice them and use them in different salads. I like to either chop them fine, chop them into cubes, make slices, and add them to salads, but you can also roast them up as a vegetable side dish. There's a lot of versatility. They are rich in nitrates, which are super important for our blood vessels. One of the things that I suggest to people who have problems with blood pressure is to add more beets, add beets into their diet for not only the mood benefits, but because they are rich in nitrates.
Rip Esselstyn:
I could see those beets going well as part of a sheet pan dinner.
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
Yes. Different colors, different textures, different shapes of the beets. I would totally add it to a sheet pan dinner too.
Rip Esselstyn:
We're also moving through the wintertime right now. I'm sure that you in your practice see a fair amount of seasonal effective disorder.
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
Yes.
Rip Esselstyn:
Do you have any recommendations for people that suffer from that?
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
A few things. If you are suffering with that, you should be talking to a doctor, because there might be the medications that you need. They might be able to suggest light therapy to you, and help guide you to the right type of light to purchase that actually has an effect and can be helpful to you. You might want to think about spending more time outdoors. The first 10 minutes actually allows you to get 80% of your vitamin D for the day, which is great for you. So, outdoor time, not through a window, then put on your sunblock, and spend some time outdoors, so you are spending that time in light.
So, seeing your doctor, making sure you have access to a light box if that's suggested, and then spending time outdoors, involving yourself in other ways to help elevate your mood. Where our days are very short now, exercising is one way to get those endorphins pumping, and having you move and feel good, feel a little bit uplifted. That's another thing that you can do. Having a mindfulness practice, all of these things really come together for a condition like seasonal affective disorder, but it's not to be ignored, because some people really suffer with it pretty badly. They might need more help. That's why involving the doctor becomes helpful.
Rip Esselstyn:
Thank you for that answer. Are you... In reading the book, I noticed that one of the things that you started doing shortly after your cancer diagnosis was you started, I think, meditating.
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
Yes.
Rip Esselstyn:
You also... I think you said you started doing adult ballet.
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
Yes. Yes. I studied ballet as a child for most of my youth, and really loved it. What I decided was that I wanted to find a gentle way to start getting back into exercise, because certainly, your body goes through a lot of changes, and fatigue is a big factor despite how well you're doing. Ballet was a good way to do that, the stretches, the calming music, and the well classical ballet, so calming music. I enjoyed it. It was a good way to reintegrate.
Rip Esselstyn:
Nice. Now, are you still doing that, or are you doing yoga or something else?
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
I do a little bit of... I love yoga. When I can catch a ballet class either in person, online, I do. I do mix it up a little bit, so, a, I don't get bored. B, I keep active, and, c, that I'm enjoying it. I do get bored easily, so I've got to change it up for myself.
Rip Esselstyn:
What did you have for breakfast this morning?
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
This morning, I always have a glass of water in the morning. I always enjoy a cup of coffee after I've gone through my morning mindfulness practice. For a lot of my weekdays, I have a chair pudding prepped, which is two ingredients and usually topped with some cinnamon or some berries. I have them prepped for a few days, so I can just literally grab it, and be checking, sipping my coffee, checking my email, doing whatever I'm doing, because my day starts so early. That helps me out.
Rip Esselstyn:
You like those chia seeds to get your daily dosage of omega-3s.
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
I like it for that reason. They also are really rich and protein for someone that's vegetarian like myself. They're a good source of fiber, protein, and those short-chain omegas. The other thing I like is if I have enough time to prep some [inaudible 01:04:53] using tofu, those are also a pretty easy thing to do, and flavorful, and give me more of a savory flavor for breakfast, which is great too.
Rip Esselstyn:
Can you tell me one dish that you made for Thanksgiving?
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
Yes. I actually decided to make a healthy twist on... My challenge was what do I do with the traditional mac and cheese dish that everyone does enjoy? One of the tweaks is that if you actually boil and cool the pasta, you actually change the glycemic index of it, so I did that. I used less pasta, but I infused a ton of cauliflower steamed, and some blended cauliflower into a sauce. I made the sauce with nutritional yeast and other milks, non-dairy with a nut milk, actually.
Look, it wasn't cheesy mac and cheese that people were used to, but it had the flavor, and I made it really look good. It was fun. That's not the whole recipe. There's a few other things to it, but that was my little tweak on it.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh, that sounds delicious. I love a great mac and cash, obviously without using dairy. What kind of noodles did you use?
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
I actually found a silver whole grain the best I could get in terms of... It's certainly processed, but it literally had whole grain in it, and that was it. It looked like a little macaroni noodle. I used probably one third of the amount that I would normally in what would be a traditional American mac and cheese dish. I really leaned into the nutritional yeast for not only the vitamin B12, but also the flavor to give me that cheesy flavor. But the next time around, I'd like to figure out how to use the cauliflower sauce that I created made from cauliflower with maybe thickening it with the creaminess of a cashew-based sauce as well.
Rip Esselstyn:
In one of my books, I've got a mac and cash recipe. I use roasted red bell peppers, nutritional yeast, lemon juice, and cashews.
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
Delicious. Delicious. Let me find that.
Rip Esselstyn:
I like the addition of the cauliflower. I'm going to do that the next time for sure.
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
Because if you steam it, and you're tricky with it, you're a little bit of a trickster with it. You steam it, and then you blend it. It actually adds to the thickness of the sauce, but it brings a creaminess with it when you add in a nut milk or something like that.
Rip Esselstyn:
I like that, trickster. I have one more question for you, and then I'm going to let you go. Which do you love more, psychiatry or cooking?
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
Oh, because obviously, I love food, so I would have to say I love cooking. Probably... That's a hard one. I guess it depends on the day. There are days that I'm so into my practice, and just busy, and immersed, and loving it. The other days that, like this weekend, when I was doing a lot of cooking, and entertaining, and having fun, and I'm loving that too. I guess it would depend on the day, because they're both very close to my heart.
Rip Esselstyn:
I get it. I used to be a full-time triathlete, and people would ask me, "What do you love most, swimming, biking, or running?" I said, "It just depends on the day."
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
it really does.
You feel... That's true. I'm glad you understand it, because it just feels on... It just depends on what you are feeling that day.
Rip Esselstyn:
Are you doing anything for the Christmas holidays? Are you staying in New York or...
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
Yes. I think that we are making our plans at the moment, and probably figuring out some of the details, because not all our families are in one place.
Rip Esselstyn:
Got it. Well, hey, this has been really a joy. Thank you for your book. This is Your Brain on Food.
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
Thank you.
Rip Esselstyn:
Thank you for everything you're doing in the field of nutritional psychiatry, being a true trailblazer in this field and at Massachusetts General Hospital sitting on the... What is the board? I think... Let me just see here, but the board of Harvard Medical School.
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
I'm on the faculty at Harvard Medical School, but-
Rip Esselstyn:
Thank you. Anyway, you're something else, something else, Dr. Uma Naidoo.
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
Thank you.
Rip Esselstyn:
I really appreciate you being on the PLANTSTRONG podcast. Thank you so much.
Dr. Uma Naidoo:
Thanks, Rip. Such excellent questions and a lovely conversation. Take good care.
Rip Esselstyn:
Dr. Naidoo's book, This is Your Brain on Food, is available now. I'll be sure to link it up in the show notes along with all kinds of other resources for Dr. Naidoo. It's cliche to say that you are what you eat, but more and more science and research is bearing this out as fact. Let's choose foods with confidence, and optimize our physical and mental health. How do you start? Well, you start by making it plant strong. Thanks for listening, and let's make 2023 one of the best years ever.
Thank you for listening to the PLANTSTRONG podcast. You can support the show by taking a quick minute to follow us wherever you listen to your favorite podcast. Leaving us a positive review, and sharing the show with your network is another great way to help us reach as many people as possible with the exciting news about plants. Thank you in advance for your support. It means everything.
The PLANTSTRONG podcast team includes Carrie Barrett, Laurie Kortowich, Ami Mackey, Patrick Gavin, and Wade Clark. This season is dedicated to all of those courageous, true seekers who weren't afraid to look through the lens with clear vision, and hold firm to a higher truth, most notably my parents, Dr. Caldwell B. Esselstyn Jr. and Anne Crile Esselstyn. Thanks for listening.
