#107: SNACKABLES with Rip and Jess - Broths, Baking Mats, and...Beaver Butts?!
Welcome to Episode six of our new PLANTSTRONG Snackables podcast series, a bite-sized podcast where host, Rip Esselstyn, and co-host, Jess Hegarty, dish on all things plants!
Jessica leads product innovation for the PlantStrong food line and, together with Rip, provides a peek behind the curtain on plant-based food headlines, market research, ingredients, and cooking inspiration. Plus, you'll always walk away with a recipe or two to share with your friends and family.
In Episode 6, Rip and Jess talk about the ease of sauteing and roasting with broth, their recommended utensils, natural ingredients, and a look at the all-new PLANTSTRONG broths available now at Whole Foods Market.
Here are More Tasty Bites from Today's Episode:
What in the world is lye and why should I be “in the know?”
The best PLANTSTRONG method of sauteing and roasting your veggies — without using oil!
What’s in Rip’s Kitchen? He lets you know his favorite pans and utensils for roasting and sauteing veggies in the Esselstyn house.
Why PLANTSTRONG is so proud of our unsalted broths and why you should be proud to have them in your kitchen.
Leftover broth and don’t want to pitch it? Find out Rip’s creative tip for saving leftover broth!
Get a history lesson from Rip and Jess on the inspiration behind this new line of broths — and great ways to use them in your own home cooking.
Natural ingredients - of course, it can be confusing when you see that listed as an ingredient in your food, but what does that really mean? Jess goes “behind the scenes” (and we mean the word, “behind” in this case).
Jess answers an audience question about yeast and MSG.
Recommended Products from Rip and Jess:
GreenPan
Cast Iron Skillet
Parchment Paper
Silicone Baking Mats
Download our PLANTSTRONG Broth Recipes
Opium, rat hair, beaver anal secretions – and other surprising things you might find in food
Whole Foods Article on Myths and Misconceptions of MSG
For all PLANTSTRONG Resources, visit plantstrong.com
Full Transcript
Rip Esselstyn:
Hey, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Snackables with Jessica Hegarty and myself, Rip Esselstyn, where we basically we chew and we dish on all things food and specifically, PLANTSTRONG foods. Right, Jess?
Jess Hegarty:
Absolutely, absolutely. I'm excited about today's episode as well.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. So, how are you doing? How have you been? I haven't seen you in person in a while because everything that's going on with the new Delta strain that's out there.
Jess Hegarty:
I know, I know. Well, our baby girl is due in six weeks. I can't believe how fast these last few weeks have flown by. And so yeah, we're doing everything we can to try to stay safe from this COVID spike that's happening in our area right now. So, in the spirit of PLANTSTRONG prioritizing health and wellness, I'm so glad we opted to do this one remotely, and so thank you.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, yeah, so appreciations and thanks to all of you listening, or watching and your patience while we get through this together. So, Jess, what are some things that are top of mind that you'd like for us to kind of talk about today? I know that our last session of Snackables, we really chewed on our stews and our chilies, that actually are rolling out as we speak across the country in the Whole Foods stores.
Jess Hegarty:
Yes, yes, yes. We're seeing our broths, chilis and stews popping up in Whole Foods Market stores around the US. And I want to give a special thanks to all the fans who are sending us pictures of our products on shelves in their local stores. This is very exciting, very exciting.
Rip Esselstyn:
It is, it is. Yeah, yeah. And so speaking of that, have you gotten any emails or anything that have caused you to do any research like you do so well?
Jess Hegarty:
Yeah. So, I love how engaged our audiences. I love the questions they throw our way, even if they're challenging. I really do welcome those. So, I wanted to start this episode following up on a comment that we received on our last episode on our stews episode. This was something that was posted to YouTube and it's regarding lye that's used in hominy. So, as many of you-
Rip Esselstyn:
So, let me ask you this. For people that don't know what lye is, what is lye?
Jess Hegarty:
My familiarity with it is I think of Tyler Durden in Fight Club using lye to give the kiss burn on Edward Norton character's hand. That's what I think of when I think of lye. It's a chemical substance that you probably don't want to consume. It's very abrasive. And so, when I saw this YouTube comment about lye used in the processing of hominy, I wanted to make sure that our audience members know that our organic hominy does not use lye in processing. It actually uses a salt water brine that's later blanched to prepare the kernel. But it's important for customers to know if you're exploring some home cooking with hominy, if you're buying it out of a can, make sure you investigate how that hominy is prepared. And I'd recommend sticking with organic if you can find it. It's not guaranteed that lye isn't used in the process, but it's more likely that they're using that same brine technique.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Wow. Holy hominy. That's crazy.
Jess Hegarty:
Yeah. I know, I know.
Rip Esselstyn:
The things that we unearth.
Jess Hegarty:
Yep, yep, exactly. So, Rip, I know many folks are listening and not watching, but in the spirit of our enthusiasm about our subject matter today, we're going to talk about broths. I know you can see them in my background. And I'd to talk about a few things here. I'd to talk about how we like to use them in whole food plant-based cooking. I want to chat a little bit about the genesis of our PLANTSTRONG broths and how those four flavors came about. And I'd also to solve some mysteries about hidden sources of sodium and talk about some not so savory ingredients that can be found in natural flavors. So, we don't have to swear off natural flavors completely, but we want to proceed with caution whenever we see them in a product. And so, talk about that a little bit more.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. That all sounds dynamite. I can't wait. So, where do you want to dive in first?
Jess Hegarty:
Well, let's talk about how our audience uses broths because it's a little bit different, right? Broths are a pantry stable, chances are, everyone's got some sort of vegetable broth in their pantry and the average person when they purchase broths, it's probably because they're making a soup. They're making a stuffing or a casserole, maybe they are using it to do some grains, like some home cooked rice or some beans, and they want to give the flavors a little oomph. But our whole food plant-based audience has a unique and specific way of using vegetable broth that really surprised me when I first started looking about, learning about plant-based cooking.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay. Well, it was probably something I've been doing forever, but I don't want to steal your thunder. What is it?
Jess Hegarty:
Well, it's using vegetable broth in place of oils when sautéing. And I remember when I started learning about this lifestyle, somebody told me just sauté it in broth instead of oil. I was like, "Nah, that's just not going to work." That's not how it works. It's going to stick. It's not going to brown. I'm sorry, but that's not that's not how these things work. And thank goodness, I was learning about it during an actual cooking demonstration, so I was able to see it with my own two eyes. Otherwise, I would have just brushed it off. I'm like, "I'm not trying. It's not going to work because chemistry."
Rip Esselstyn:
And it works beautifully well.
Jess Hegarty:
It really does, so for listeners who are skeptical, who haven't tried sautéing with broths, let me assure you it can be done. And it's actually a great way to build flavor in a dish. So, you're adding that additional layer of herbs, adding that additional savory notes of extra vegetables, and that's why it's used in so many recipes. It's a subtle way to really take meals to the next level.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, yeah, especially without having to, in some recipes, do all that, that tedious chopping and cutting and dicing. You can basically replace that with a really good broth.
Jess Hegarty:
Absolutely, you can. It's a really simple shortcut. So, for those who might not be familiar, I'd like to talk about our tips and tricks for oil-free cooking. I know you guys do a lot of cooking demos. I know that there are going to be plenty with plant stock, right? There's going to be some cooking demos that no doubt will be oil-free. And so, when you're sautéing with water or broth, the first thing I would say is the pan really matters. It really matters what kind of pan you're doing. So, we're going to put some links in the show notes to something called GreenPan. Rip, have you used this before? The GreenPan?
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, that's what I have here at the office.
Jess Hegarty:
You do? You have one?
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, yep, yeah.
Jess Hegarty:
I don't know if it's accessible if you can hold it up, but we'll definitely make sure to link it in the show notes. Apparently, it has really good nonstick properties, right?
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, yeah, I've been using it for a couple of years. And yeah, it's a really nice pan. It's not that expensive. And then of course the other one that maybe you're getting to that I've used as a firefighter for 12 years and that we have in our home that is just so utilitarian and it's so versatile is just a cast iron. Right?
Jess Hegarty:
Yes.
Rip Esselstyn:
It's just, it's got a lot of heft to it and a lot of durability. But you want to make sure you take care of it, right? And you don't put the dish soap on it and after you clean it off with water, you want to dry it immediately. It does require a certain level of tender loving care.
Jess Hegarty:
Maintenance, absolutely, absolutely, yeah, with cast iron. So, using any type of nonstick pan, we recommend GreenPan or cast iron, we found that to be the best for sautéing with waters and broths. And then we also, we polled the team about what kind of utensils we use whenever we're doing, I call it dry sautéing because we're not using oil, but. So, Rip, what kind of utensil do you use when you're sautéing vegetables with broth?
Rip Esselstyn:
It's always a wooden spoon.
Jess Hegarty:
Same in our household and same in our PLANTSTRONG team members household as well. So, wooden spatulas are really the secret. And then in terms of techniques, you really want to heat the skillet first, whatever skillet you're using. And then add a small amount of liquid, maybe one to two tablespoons at first and stir constantly. So, you slowly allow that liquid to steam and help sauté and then slowly add more liquid as is needed. So, you do have to babysit it a little bit. You can't just put it on the frying pan and walk away from it, but it can be done. And Rip, don't you have a great tip for what to do with excess broth, if you've got a little bit leftover, a way of keeping it fresh and preserving it? You know what I'm talking about?
Rip Esselstyn:
I think I do. So, I think what you're referring to is pulling out, out of the freezer, the empty, the ice cube tray, and then put it in your ice cube tray, freeze it and then you have little individual serving sizes of broth that you can put in before you stir fry that vegetable, mince an onion, or stir fry or whatever it is. And it is super, super simple and super easy.
Jess Hegarty:
I love it. That is a genius kitchen hack to put leftover broth in an ice cube tray. Well, mine doesn't last that long. We usually use a good amount of it whenever we're cooking, but if you do have any leftover, that's a great way to not let it go to waste because I think it will only last seven to 10 days in the fridge. That's a great way to make it last a little longer as well.
Jess Hegarty:
Well, that was sautéing. What about roasting without oil? Again, when I learned about whole food plant-based cooking, I did not believe that you could just roast vegetables in the oven without any oil. So, what do you guys use at home?
Rip Esselstyn:
So, we use parchment paper. Love parchment paper. You cut off what you need. I then crumple it up into a ball and then I lay it down on top of the cookie sheet. And then by crumpling it up, it doesn't come up on the sides. It stays down, it stays flat, and then I put on whenever I want. And really, that's it. It's that simple.
Jess Hegarty:
That's a pro tip. I haven't heard of crumpling it up so that it lays flat and comes up on the sides. That's a great tip.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. You obviously haven't been following me on Instagram lately.
Jess Hegarty:
I haven't seen that demo. I haven't seen that demo. I want to be clear. I don't know, Rip, if you've ever made this mistake, but I have and it's not a fun one. Have you ever accidentally used wax paper instead of parchment paper? No, they're a great friend.
Rip Esselstyn:
You know what? No, they are. And I don't think I have only because I don't think we have wax paper in the house.
Jess Hegarty:
Good.
Rip Esselstyn:
I could be wrong, but-
Jess Hegarty:
No, you don't need it and it just, it burns and makes your kitchen all smoky. And it is very different from parchment paper. I didn't know. That was a rookie mistake that I want to make sure our audience is aware of. Wax paper and parchment paper are very different. Use parchment paper for roasting vegetables.
Jess Hegarty:
So, another, what we use in our household, we sometimes use parchment paper, but we invested, invested I think, it was like $20 for two on Amazon, these silicone baking mats. So, for people who like to kind of reuse, those are a great option. They make a great gift. But I'll say that they do kind of turn brown and get dirty-looking. over time. They're still clean, but they're just not beautiful and pristine. They look used, which I think it's okay.
Rip Esselstyn:
No, it's okay. We call that the PLANTSTRONG patina. Right? And used to-
Jess Hegarty:
Patina.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, PLANTSTRONG patina and you want to wear that badge of messiness very proudly.
Jess Hegarty:
Yes, it means you're eating a lot of oil-free vegetables, that's great.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, it means you're living the lifestyle.
Jess Hegarty:
For sure, for sure. So, in terms of techniques, one thing that I would recommend and I know you do this as well, Rip, is before you go to roast a vegetable, you want to give it some sort of marinade. So, that can be a broth, that can be a vinegar, anything with liquid that's going to help whatever seasonings or spices you put on after the fact, really stick to the vegetable or the potato, whatever it is that you're doing.
Jess Hegarty:
And I heard, I haven't tried this, but the same thing goes for an air fryer. You don't have to put any oil in the air fryer, you just have to apply moisture to the vegetables that's going to help bring out the crispiness when you actually fry it in an air fryer. So, for those of you who have air fryers, you can do oil-free roasting there as well. Just make sure you're giving it some sort of liquid marinade, add your spices, and then don't put any oil in the air fryer.
Rip Esselstyn:
Nice little tip.
Jess Hegarty:
Nice little tip. Any other tips, tricks? Do we recover them all?
Rip Esselstyn:
We haven't even come close, but I think that that's good for now. Yeah.
Jess Hegarty:
Those are the highlights. Those are the highlights. Great. Well, Rip, I'd love to in typical Snackables' style, give our listeners a little behind the scenes, fun history about how our PLANTSTRONG broths came to be, how they were born. And the first one I'd to talk about is the Slow-Simmered Vegetable Stock. So, do you want to talk about that history?
Rip Esselstyn:
Sure. Absolutely. I'll start it. So, a lot of you love, love, love the Engine 2 organic vegetable stock. And that has been an all-time favorite at Whole Foods stores for probably going on seven years. And it was our out of all of the products that we had on the shelf, it was our number one bestselling product. And it was low sodium. It didn't have any added salt. There were 20 milligrams of sodium per serving. And if you look at this category, meaning the broths and the stocks, it is notoriously insanely high in sodium. I mean, we're talking a typical serving is anywhere for most broths is anywhere between 200 at the load all high of maybe 700 and 800.
Jess Hegarty:
Yeah, 900, 900. It's crazy.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, yeah. And so, I think as people are starting to be more conscientious about the amount of sodium that they're putting into their bodies, they've realized that there's something to a low sodium, no added salt broth that still does the trick that can deliver on that promise of what a stock or broth is supposed to do. And we became the number three selling stock broth at Whole Foods. And so, when it was time for me to take Engine 2 and move beyond Whole Foods after my 10-year contract, I had to go through the same process that anybody, any potential vendor would. And so, I met with a category manager at Whole Foods and the stocks and broths and soups and chilis category. And she was like, "Rip, I love, love this Engine 2 product. In fact, I love it so much that I would love to see you do line extensions where you take some different unique flavor profiles and really deliver on that.
Rip Esselstyn:
And that's how, that was the genesis of right what is behind you there with the Veggie broth, the Shitake Mushroom broth, this Spanish Style Sofrito broth and then the Sweet Corn broth. And I think it's important to say that each and every one of these, we've followed that same protocol where the sodium is anywhere from 10 mg/serving at the low to the high being 20. And then one of them being 15 milligrams. And again, no added sodium in any of these. And the only sodium that's in there is just naturally occurring from the vegetables that we use. And we really, and I'd love for you to speak about this, Jess, we've created some really unique flavor profiles, and there's nothing else like them on the market.
Jess Hegarty:
Absolutely. I am so proud that ours are truly unsalted. And I know we looked at all of the sodium in these broths come from the naturally occurring sodium in vegetables. So, I know when we were first starting to think about, "Okay, what flavors do we want to do next?" We actually looked up a bunch of different vegetables and looked at their naturally occurring sodium content. So things like onions, for example, actually have really low sodium, about 8 milligrams of sodium per 100 grams of onion. Carrots are a little bit higher. They're 70 milligrams of sodium. Beets are 80. Celery is 80 as well. And then Swiss chard, I remember, I couldn't believe. Swiss chard, 213 milligrams of naturally occurring sodium per 100 g. That's some salty stuff.
Rip Esselstyn:
How about spinach? Do you have any numbers for spinach?
Jess Hegarty:
I don't remember. I don't have that one in front of me, but I think it was up there as well. I think it was really close to the Swiss chard.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Well, and to me what's so interesting about you just rattling off those numbers, so I want people to realize is that just by consuming really a whole food plant-based diet, where you're really focused on foods as close to grown as possible, you're still going to get all of the naturally occurring sodium that you need as a human being. And where we get into trouble is with all the processed and refined foods, the package, the canned foods that are just notoriously high of being pumped to the gills with sodium. Which is one of the reasons why we're obviously so proud of. Not only our broths and our chilis and stews, but also every product that we come out with it, PLANTSTRONG because it's one of our pillars is to be-
Jess Hegarty:
Exactly.
Rip Esselstyn:
Is to be either lightly salted or low sodium and to really where that nexus of health and taste meet to be the absolute rockstar.
Jess Hegarty:
Yeah, exactly, exactly. And unsalted. It's so culinary, right? It's a culinary term, but it gives you the flexibility to control your salt level. So, you con salt whatever you made with these broths. You can salt it at the table, as opposed to letting sodium be one of the flavors that you build with over time, which can result in a huge amount of sodium in the final dish. That's not a flavor, salt is not a flavor you want to build. Vegetables and herbs and aromatics, those are flavors that you want to build.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yes, I'm glad you said all that, because we are not opposed to people having a salt shaker on their dinner table. Right? Believe it or not, only 6% of America's salt consumption comes from the salt shaker.
Jess Hegarty:
Wow.
Rip Esselstyn:
The remaining 94% is coming from, again, the processed and packaged and canned foods, restaurant foods that are just crazy high. And then of course, when we cook, we put some in there, but that's only another 8%. So, if you're eating whole plant-based foods, you buy products that have either low-sodium, lightly salted that follow the one-to-one guideline that we really like people to adhere to, you're not going to be going over that 1500 milligrams per day, which is really the sweet spot where we want you to be.
Jess Hegarty:
Exactly, exactly. So yes, really proud of our unsalted broths. And we'll talk about other sources of sodium here in a second. But I want to I want to keep chatting about these different flavors, because there's a specific reason for the creation of each one of these. So, we talked about our vegetable stock, and how it really was the inspiration. It was doing really well in Whole Foods. And we had to find another supplier partner when we transitioned out of Whole Foods. And I'm so grateful, we found an amazing new supplier partner who now makes these broths. And their strength is sourcing really top quality ingredients. And I think you can taste that in the final result.
Jess Hegarty:
So, they had to reverse engineer our recipe. We agree that they more than nailed it. And we toyed around with a few things, right? We toyed with, we played with bringing in more carrot to bring up the sweetness. And I think folks will be really happy with the final result. So, that was the first one.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, yeah. Yep. The quality is in fact I think superior to where, to what the old product was.
Jess Hegarty:
I agree. I agree. And so, when we started talking about what should we do for a second skew or a second flavor, we talked to the Whole Foods category manager, we talked to our chef consultant, Ken Rubin, but we knew, Rip, we have been talking about it for a long time. We wanted to do a mushroom broth and mushrooms are gaining in popularity as more and more people learn about the incredible health properties, right?
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, they should and they're really fun guys.
Jess Hegarty:
Yeah, they're fun guys. Do you have a favorite variety of mushroom, Rip?
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, you know I have hunted before for the chanterelle. It's a fascinating mushroom. It's very expensive and kind of seasonal. I've never been a huge fan of the portobello unless it's cooked really, really like the way Derek Sarno likes to cook it. Just get all of the fluid out of it and just really, and season it appropriately and really cook it, the dickens out of it. But I would say if I had a favorite, it would probably be the shitake or the cremini. That's it.
Jess Hegarty:
Yeah, classic, classic.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, yeah. How about you?
Jess Hegarty:
I'm sure you can find those in any grocery store. I love both of those. You brought up chanterelles. I actually tried these for the first time last month. I went to the farm in Tennessee to visit some of the Hegarty family friends. And they had fresh foraged chanterelles.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow.
Jess Hegarty:
And Rip, I just, I devoured them. I felt kind of bad for eating so many, but I'm pregnant and I wanted to make sure all those healthy compounds were going for the baby. So, that was my window to eat them and I really enjoyed them. But my favorite when I'm cooking at home, I really like shitakes. It's my favorite conventional mushroom variety and they're really mild. They have almost a buttery flavor to them. I really like them.
Jess Hegarty:
And the reason I'm so proud to have a mushroom flavored broth is mushrooms are really rich in B vitamins. They have B1, B2, B3, B5, and B9. Do you know what B9 is by any chance? I didn't.
Rip Esselstyn:
B9. Help me out.
Jess Hegarty:
It's very important for pregnant ladies, very important to talk about it.
Rip Esselstyn:
Is it folate? What is it?
Jess Hegarty:
It's folate. Nailed it. Good job.
Rip Esselstyn:
Thanks.
Jess Hegarty:
So, there's folate in mushrooms and there are also beneficial compounds. Specific antioxidants in mushrooms that aren't found in any fruits and vegetables, aren't found anywhere else in nature. So, if you're not eating mushrooms, I know it's a polarizing ingredient, try to sneak some in. Cut them up really small, eat them when you can, or get some of our mushroom broth. It's a really great way to get some of those unique antioxidants and B vitamins.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, yeah. Anything, should we talk to use cases right now or is that, you want to do that later?
Jess Hegarty:
Well, we're going to share some really awesome recipes, so I think we can do that later. But one thing that I wanted to bring up that was really exciting for us with a mushroom broth is you can't find a single low-sodium mushroom broth option on the market. I haven't seen them. I'm constantly searching. You can't find a low-sodium option, let alone a completely unsalted, so we were so excited to be the first there. So, really happy with that, with that skew. Really excited for people to try it. And yeah, it's not the only good one that we have in our repertoire. Do you want to talk about the sofrito? That one's my favorite.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, I know. I know when we were doing some taste testing for sofrito, you heated some up and you said that, "This is how you want your kitchen to always smell." Because it was just so warm and inviting and that something about the aroma was just so delicious. I just remember you just like just being so over the moon excited about the sofrito. But yeah, a sofrito. It's a Spanish style sofrito, so you've got the bell peppers, you've got the leeks, the cilantro, the tomato, the garlic. It's just a wonderful combination of flavors. And I've never tasted anything like it.
Jess Hegarty:
Yes, yes, Rip. And you know what's funny? I remember that day that you're talking about. I remember opening it up and the smell that came from it. It really reminded me of my dad's kitchen. So, he's an amazing traditional Italian cook and the base for just about everything he makes stir fries, soups, sauces, he always starts with a quick sauté of garlic, onion and bell peppers, which are the main ingredients in the sofrito broth.
Jess Hegarty:
So, the idea with this one is that we really wanted to save folks the time of mincing and dicing those three ingredients. If you're doing a quick stir fry, you're making some broccoli or something and you don't want cut up garlic, onion, bell peppers, pull out your herbs, et cetera, you can just throw in a splash of the sofrito broth, and it imparts a really awesome flavor to even just a simple sauté. So, really, really excited. The sofrito broth is my favorite and the one I think we'll use most frequently at home.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, yeah. What about, what have we got? Sweet corn, right?
Jess Hegarty:
That's the last one. And I mean-
Rip Esselstyn:
That's a sleeper.
Jess Hegarty:
It's, yeah, I know we call it the sleeper. Rip, we can't take credit for that one.
Rip Esselstyn:
No.
Jess Hegarty:
We flat out, this was Ken Rubin's idea. We flat out asked him, our chef consultant, "Hey Ken, what if-"
Rip Esselstyn:
And I think we talked about, if you guys don't know, Ken appeared on the PLANTSTRONG podcast and in Season 3, so tune into Ken. He's one of the most spectacular chefs in the country really knows plant-based like nobody's business. And we talked about him, I think on the last episode of Snackables regarding the khichuri specifically, that we were stunned and amazed to find out that both you and Ken prepared this Indian lentil stew on a weekly basis, which is called a-
Jess Hegarty:
On a weekly basis.
Rip Esselstyn:
Which is called a khichuri over in India.
Jess Hegarty:
Yep, yep, yep. Well, Ken, I remember, we flat out asked him, "What would you to see on shelves?" And he said, "You know in culinary school, a very common base for many recipes starts with a corn stock." I'm like, "Corn stock? Whoa." It's like, "Yeah, those amateur home chefs are going to love it. I mean, that's going to save a major step. It has this nice sweetness. It's got a buttery flavor." And so, we worked on a recipe. And yeah, we call it our sleeper skew, because people don't know they need a corn broth until they try a corn broth. And then that's something that they need going forward. So, I would recommend for this product.
Jess Hegarty:
At home, we often combine corn and grains like a corn and quinoa. We call it cornoa, right? It's sounds fancy. It's just corn and quinoa. I love that flavor combination of grains with the sweet pops of corn. So, I would use this broth in place of water when you're making any type of grain, quinoa, brown, rice, millet, whatever you do at home. That's what I would, that would be my first exploration with this, with this product.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, so Jill and I, we were playing with this. And we used it in our macaroni and not-cheese recipe instead of water. Instead of water when you're making the cashew-roasted red bell pepper, lime juice and nutritional yeast kind of cheese. Instead of using water, we use this sweet corn broth and it was insane, insane.
Jess Hegarty:
Yeah. That sounds great. That sounds amazing. Well, I know we have some special recipes that were designed for these broths by Brenda Reed, our event chef who supports almost all of the PLANTSTRONG events that are happening. And so we're going to post her recipes in the show notes, but for easy access, we are also posting these recipes. Rip, you want to share how listeners can access these recipes straight from the PLANTSTRONG broth box?
Rip Esselstyn:
Yes, yes. So, you can let me... okay, so we have a QR code. If you don't know what a QR code is, it's on the side of the box and you hold your phone up to it, and you just have to put it in your camera mode, put it on your photo mode, like you're going to take a photo. And then it basically will then fire up the URL, meaning the website on the top of your phone, you click on that. And will take you to the recipe. It's super simple.
Jess Hegarty:
Super simple. So, when you're standing in your kitchen actually making something with these broths and don't want to go back to your computer to try to pull up the show notes and dig out the recipe. Pull out your phone, pretend like you're taking a picture of the side of the box and it's going to automatically pull up the link to these fabulous recipes.
Rip Esselstyn:
Or what you might want to do is if you're in the store, do it and then that way you can see if you're missing any ingredients that you don't have at home and you can get them while you're there.
Jess Hegarty:
Good idea. Good idea. You need it in both places in your kitchen and in the store. That's a great tip. All right, well, Rip, I'd love to talk about natural flavors because as we were looking at broths and looking at what was currently on shelf, we saw some oils and some brands, some sugars and other brands, salt, of course. But I want to also talk about natural flavors, because I trying to answer your questions. Just like I love the customer questions that are coming our way. I trying to answer your questions, Rip. And last time or on a previous episode, the question was... go ahead.
Rip Esselstyn:
You talking about the Pacific oat milk?
Jess Hegarty:
Exactly. Why is Pacific oat milk so sweet? It has something like 17 or 19 grams of included sugar listed in the nutrition facts, but no sugar.
Rip Esselstyn:
But it's interesting because it didn't use to be included as added sugars. And they made a change maybe around a year and a half, two years ago. And you talked about how they add enzymes that basically break it down into these sugars, right?
Jess Hegarty:
Exactly, so I'm guessing there was some sort of regulation change that motivated them to change the label. But they are adding enzymes that break down that starch into sugars, essentially. So, that's why it's so sweet. And that's why they don't list sugar in the ingredients.
Jess Hegarty:
Well, this week's question.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Jess Hegarty:
This week's question is, how can Kitchen Basics Unsalted Vegetable Broth, for those of you who have seen it or have used this at home, it has 210 milligrams of sodium per serving without any added salt. So, how is this possible? They're unsalted broth.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wait. The only way that I can think of is if the number 1, 2, 3 and 4 ingredient is Swiss chard.
Jess Hegarty:
Right. Exactly, exactly. Right? They got to just load that stuff up with Swiss chard. Yeah. For comparison, Rip, our PLANTSTRONG broths, as you mentioned, they've got a ton of vegetables, but no more than 10 to 20 milligrams of sodium per serving. So, how does Kitchen Basics have 10 times the sodium with no salt, here are my thoughts.
Jess Hegarty:
So, the extra sodium in that unsalted broth could come from vegetables like Swiss chard, but I didn't see it in the ingredient list or it could come from a longer cook time. But I didn't see spinach, I didn't see those higher sodium ingredients, and I didn't see any indication of slow simmering. Also, I think you would notice if they were using more vegetables, you'd probably see it in the price, right? It'd be really, really expensive. And you would probably notice it also in the color of the broth. It would be like dark, darker, and you'd notice a more of a richness in the taste. I've had this unsalted broth before. It's very light. It's very mild, so I don't think that's what's happening.
Rip Esselstyn:
So, what do you think is happening?
Jess Hegarty:
So, upon inspection of their ingredient list, I noticed that natural flavors are listed as an ingredient and it's pretty high on the ingredient list, too. It's before herbs and spices, actually. So, they have a good amount of some sort of natural flavor in there that I think is contributing to the sodium.
Jess Hegarty:
So, I want to be clear, I'm not saying that all natural flavors are bad. I actually enjoy the Waterloo watermelon sparkling water with natural flavors. I enjoy my organic almond milk, which has some natural flavors. Rip, they are in everything. Natural flavors are so commonly used. I read an Environmental Working Group study of 80,000 food products, they found that only salt, water and sugar appear more frequently on food labels. Those are the only things that appear more frequently. Isn't that crazy? So-
Rip Esselstyn:
So, there's probably a spectrum as far as with natural flavors as far as being, going from not bad for you to really not being healthy for you.
Jess Hegarty:
There is a spectrum, yeah and natural flavors are this broad classification by the FDA. And so, my point here is if you're eating any packaged foods, chances are you're eating a variety of natural flavors. And I want our listeners to be aware of those natural flavors and feel empowered to ask questions and investigate which natural flavors are being used and for what purpose because that can vary.
Jess Hegarty:
So, I wanted to give a few details about natural flavors and the first thing I wanted to do is talk about the difference between artificial flavors and natural flavors. So it's based on where the flavors are derived. Natural flavors are derived from plants and animals and artificial flavors are derived from manmade substances, but on a molecular level, they can be exactly the same. So, natural derived from plants and animals, artificial usually made in a lab, right?
Rip Esselstyn:
Man-made.
Jess Hegarty:
So, as we know, the word "natural" doesn't mean a whole lot in the food industry, right? There's no FDA definition of the word, so it doesn't carry a lot of meaning. Anyone can call anything natural. But there are regulations around natural flavors. For example, you can't put MSG in a product and call it natural flavoring. But there isn't much transparency into natural flavors. They're processing the chemicals that are used. And honestly, natural flavors, they may have started off as a naturally derived substance, but they could have been processed and chemically altered beyond recognition.
Jess Hegarty:
So, here's the kicker for our vegan listeners and this really surprised me. Hear me out, hear me out, y'all. Companies are not required to list the source of flavorings whether they come from animals or plants. So, unless the manufacturer explicitly states that the natural flavors in their products are derived from plants or they have a vegan certification, there's no way of knowing where they come from. And that's what I noticed when I was researching Pacific Foods and Kitchen Basics, they say that they're vegan, but they're not certified. So, I think we should follow up and email them and see where their natural flavors come from.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow.
Jess Hegarty:
And isn't that crazy? Isn't that crazy? So, be on the lookout for that vegan certification or email-
Rip Esselstyn:
And what does that vegan certification look like?
Jess Hegarty:
Yeah, a vegan label on the packaging somewhere.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right, so basically what we have here, right? The V.
Jess Hegarty:
Exactly.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, so if it's got that little stamp of approval, I guess then you know that your natural flavors, everything is coming from plants and not some sort of a nefarious source.
Jess Hegarty:
Exactly, exactly. And another thing about natural flavors is a lot of scary things can hide in there. For example, have you heard about castoreum? Have you heard about this?
Rip Esselstyn:
Castoreum. I don't even know what that is. Never heard. No.
Jess Hegarty:
So, there's a rumor on the internet that has been inducing vomit, inducing nausea in some home bakers trying to save a buck. So, castoreum is a heavily scented brown goo that is secreted from a beaver's castor gland, which butts up against the beaver-
Rip Esselstyn:
It's butt?
Jess Hegarty:
The beaver's anal gland. Exactly.
Rip Esselstyn:
What?
Jess Hegarty:
So, yeah. It's how they mark their territory, much cats spray, so beavers use this castor gland. And it actually smells really good or so the internet tells me.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow. Wow. I wonder who's the first person was like, "Hey, that's a pretty good scent. Let's see if we can bottle that."
Jess Hegarty:
That smells great.
Rip Esselstyn:
Let's bottle that up as a perfume or a natural flavor.
Jess Hegarty:
Yeah, exactly, exactly. So, I did check and castoreum is on the FDA list of grass food additives, generally recognized as safe food additives. And it has been used as a natural food flavoring for the past Century, so it's used as a replacement vanilla, replacement raspberry, strawberry in some flavorings and foods. And technically, it is a natural flavor. It's a little too natural for my taste. I'm not going for that kind of natural.
Jess Hegarty:
But rest assured for people who are using imitation vanilla extracts, it's really hard to source, which is not surprising given where it comes from. I won't tell you exactly how they extract it because this is a family program. But let's just say it involves milking and that's as far as I need to go, right?
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, wow, wow. That's, you're milking the anal glands of a beaver.
Jess Hegarty:
Castor glands near the anal gland.
Rip Esselstyn:
Castor glands near the anal glands. Okay.
Jess Hegarty:
For a technicality. But yeah, I read that only around 300 pounds of this stuff are produced annually. And most of that goes into fancy perfumes right? It's very expensive, so it's probably not in your pantry. But it could be in your makeup cabinet, ladies, so yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Do you know where this beaver farm is located? We need to let these guys out.
Jess Hegarty:
I know, right? I know. I don't want to smell like beaver secretions. That's okay. I don't need that.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow.
Jess Hegarty:
But I think the takeaway here is really clear, right? If you see natural flavors on the ingredient list, I encourage you to do some digging. Be on the lookout for those vegan certifications, those non-GMO certifications if those attributes are important to you. And don't hesitate to email the manufacturer to find out more.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay, are we done with natural flavors?
Jess Hegarty:
I think so. I think so. So, we started this episode with a customer comment. And I wanted to end this episode with a customer comment as well, this time about one of our broths. So, we received an email, Rip and the subject headline was "Hidden MSG..."
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, it doesn't sound like something that-
Jess Hegarty:
Dang.
Rip Esselstyn:
... we want to be a part of.
Jess Hegarty:
Right. Exactly, exactly. So, for the sake of transparency, I want to address this inquiry on our podcast, because many customers might have the same question in the future. So, the ingredient that's being brought into question here is the yeast extract that we use in our shitake mushroom broth. And this is the only one of our broths that has any yeast extract in it. And there's a very specific reason for it, which I'll get into in a second.
Jess Hegarty:
But I want to start off by saying to whoever wrote this email, thank you. I understand and appreciate your vigilance around ingredients. I'm one of those people, too, clearly, right? So, I stay away from MSG. It's one of the reasons I really enjoy shopping at Whole Foods Market because it's one of their banned ingredients. You won't find a single MSG-containing product in any Whole Foods Market store. And like Whole Foods, PLANTSTRONG has never and will never allow MSG in any of our products. But there are some common misconceptions out there about natural glutamate containing ingredients like yeast extract and synthetically derived highly concentrated glutamate containing ingredients like MSG that I want to address.
Jess Hegarty:
So, Rip, our friends at Whole Foods actually published a really great article about this back in 2008. I think they were also probably getting some emails about this specific ingredient. It sounds like. And the article was published by the Quality Standards team. I don't know if you knew anybody from that team. But their job, they describe their jobs as being an agent for the Whole Foods Market customers. So, they are professional rabbit-hole travelers. They get deep into the chemistry. They question sourcing. They question processing. They question preservation methods of any and all products that they're putting on shelves.
Jess Hegarty:
So, I have a quote from their article that I'd like to read. And they start off by saying this, "Ongoing confusion about this ingredient is complicated and requires us to look at some of the chemicals responsible for food tasting good. The term glutamate refers to a number of foods, a number of forms of glutamic acid and amino acid found naturally in many foods. Cheese, milk, meat, peas, seaweed, and mushrooms are a few of these foods containing the highest levels of natural glutamate." And this substance is responsible for the phenomenon of umami, right? That great, savory, meaty flavor that we love so much about mushrooms.
Jess Hegarty:
"MSG, on the other hand, is a synthetically derived highly concentrated flavor enhancer that is almost completely made up of glutamates. It's so powerful that just a few drops can drastically change the flavor of a dish. It's also so powerfully concentrated that it can cause severe reactions in people who are hypersensitive to it." The article goes on to say that a number of consumer groups have claimed that certain food ingredients such as autolyzed yeast, aka yeast extract, are MSG in disguise, they are not.
Jess Hegarty:
Autolyzed yeast is a completely natural ingredient that happens to have substantial amounts of glutamates, but nowhere near the concentration found in MSG. These are natural ingredients that are of concern for people with specific sensitivities, but they are not MSG. And they end the article with this line, "We draw a clear line between natural glutamate-containing foods, which we allow and highly concentrated MSG, which we don't."
Jess Hegarty:
So, I loved this article. I felt like it really kind of laid out some really clear and specific differences. And in this instance, with this product, we aligned ourselves to the Whole Foods Market quality standards. And to achieve that rich umami flavor, we greenlighted yeast extract for our mushroom stew. So, I would say for those with sensitivities, I would suggest sticking with our other three broths. But for those who don't have a specific food allergy, I hope I cleared up some of the myths and misconceptions there.
Jess Hegarty:
And we'll post that article in the show notes as well, so that folks can read it. And I'll just end with saying, I want to encourage all listeners to keep questioning, keep sharing your thoughts. We love hearing from you. And like I said, we don't shy away from those challenging questions. So, we do value continuous learning, continuous improvement, both personally and with our products, so be vocal, reach out and please do stay connected.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Thanks, Jess. And thanks to the consumer that sent in that email. And thanks Jess for doing your digging and getting to the bottom of what's going on with MSG and yeast extract and all that. You are the heroine of healthy ingredients.
Jess Hegarty:
Thanks, Rip. Yeah, literally, it's literally my job. And like I said, I love a challenge.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, in wrapping up, just everybody, we'd love for you to go to your local Whole Foods. See if the broths, the chilis and the stews are on the shelf. Use those phones. Check out those QR codes for some really recipe-inspired dishes from Brenda Reed. And, man, we just, we hope you love these as much as Jess and I love putting these together and working on them for the last 18 months. Yeah.
Jess Hegarty:
Yeah, yeah. They have been a long time coming and we are proud. They are like exploding out of my head, you can see.
Rip Esselstyn:
Exactly, exactly. Yeah, yeah.
Jess Hegarty:
Great.
Rip Esselstyn:
All right. Well, Jess, anything else before we sign off and say goodbye?
Jess Hegarty:
No, I think that's it, Rip. Thank you so much. It's always a pleasure. And I look forward to the next episode of Snackables.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, me, too. All right, everybody, peace. Engine 2, keep it PLANTSTRONG.
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