#101: SNACKABLES with Rip and Jess - Which Plant-Based Milk is Best?
Welcome to Episode Four of our new PLANTSTRONG Snackables podcast series, a bite-sized podcast where host, Rip Esselstyn, and co-host, Jess Hegarty, dish on all things plants!
Jessica leads product innovation for the PlantStrong food line and, together with Rip, they provide a peek behind the curtain on plant-based food headlines, market research, ingredients, and cooking inspiration. Plus, you'll always walk away with a recipe or two to share with your friends and family.
In Episode 4, Rip and Jess talk about all things plant-based milk - their tremendous growth, the challenges they face, and tips for how to choose from the incredible variety of options in your local grocery store.
We wrap up with a simple demonstration of how to make truly whole food, plant-based milk (no filtering or straining required!)
In this episode, we cut the confusion and help you discover:
The most environmentally friendly plant-based milk
The healthiest plant-based milk
The tastiest plant-based milk on the shelves
More Tasty Bites from Today's Episode:
00:00-06:30 Welcome from Rip and Jess - Rip’s current favorite foods (can you say “peaches and creme sweet corn?")
06:30-53:20 An In-depth Dive into Plant-Based Milk Varieties
Education on plant-based milk politics, headlines, finance, and chemistry (yes, chemistry!)
Discussions on the most environmentally friendly, healthiest, and tastiest milk in the market
53:20-58:40 Jessica’s Recipe and Demo of a creamy pumpkin and hempseed milk - perfect for cereals
Additional Episode Resources
Homemade Plant-Based Milk Recipes
For all PLANTSTRONG Resources, visit plantstrong.com
Full Transcript
Rip Esselstyn:
Welcome to another Plantstrong Snackables episode with my co-host and head of product innovation for Plantstrong foods, Jessica Hegarty. She truly is the healthy ingredient heroine. Today we're going to change things up a bit on the Snackables podcast, giving you little bites on plant-based politics, finance, and chemistry. Yes, chemistry. In addition to the standard product recommendations, recipes, and demos. In this episode, Jess and I will be discussing all things alternative milks, their tremendous growth, the challenges they're facing, and tips for how to choose from the incredible variety of options in your local grocery store. It is beyond nutty right now. And then we're going to wrap up with a simple demonstration for how you can make a truly whole food, plant-based milk, no filtering or straining required.
Rip Esselstyn:
Now, one clarification for today's episode. We're going to talk about plant-based milk options and make a few recommendations, like a company called Elmhurst. And there's also a company called Oatly, I'm sure you've heard of it, it's the rage right now, a Swedish oat milk brand that went public recently and is taking the world by storm. Be on the lookout for one of their fat-free versions, it's the only one in the assortment that is free from processed oils. All right, let's dive in.
Rip Esselstyn:
Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of Plantstrong's Snackables. I'm Rip Esselstyn. This is Jessica Hegarty. And we got a doozy for you today, so fasten those seat belts. But this is where Jess and I, basically, we chew and what's the word I'm looking for?
Jess Hegarty:
Dish?
Rip Esselstyn:
Dish. We chew and we dish on all things related to food, primarily Plantstrong foods. So for starters, Jess, did you have a good weekend?
Jess Hegarty:
I did, I did. Yeah, you know I went Casa de Luz again and again, Barton Springs, enjoying the summer. What about you?
Rip Esselstyn:
Iconic Austin. I had a great one. What I want to ask you is what's the most number of ears of corn you've ever had in one sitting?
Jess Hegarty:
My personal record is probably something closer to three. But I know that it's a common food in eating competitions. What's your record, Rip?
Rip Esselstyn:
Well I'm sure it's probably ... I've never actually been an eating corn record, but I'm sure I've had a dozen.
Jess Hegarty:
Oh my gosh.
Rip Esselstyn:
But I love corn and the Esselstyn's love corn. But there's nothing like summer sweet corn, and the reason I bring that up to you is because I've got a mountain biking partner, his name is Tim [Terway 00:03:14] and he went to Davenport, Iowa last week, and while he was there he brought back a present of six ears of corn that he proudly presented to me yesterday. And he said, "Rip, this isn't just any old corn. This is peaches and cream corn. It came from LeClaire, Iowa. It's made in small batches on small farms." He got it from a little roadside stand, a kid named Ryan who was selling it on the back of his truck. And it's this tender, heirloom, really special corn. And I was like, "Oh it sounds amazing." It has these bi-color kernels, each bite has two distinct flavors. But we grilled it up and then we had six. The kids weren't enthusiastic about it, Jill was. I had five-
Jess Hegarty:
Good for you.
Rip Esselstyn:
Jill had one. But I had never heard of a peaches and cream heirloom varietal corn before. But if you're ever in LeClaire, Iowa, go find a guy named Ryan and buy these. They are phenomenal.
Jess Hegarty:
Oh my gosh, was it sweeter and creamier than your average corn?
Rip Esselstyn:
It was just like a wonderful summer sweet corn on steroids.
Jess Hegarty:
Oh my gosh, it sounds amazing. It sounds amazing.
Rip Esselstyn:
It was. So, now that we're in the heart of summertime, I thought I'd just let you know how much I love that corn. Crazy.
Jess Hegarty:
Oh my gosh, it sounds amazing.
Rip Esselstyn:
The other thing is I was shopping this morning, getting ready for the episode, buying some different plant-based milks. And I came across this.
Jess Hegarty:
Oh boy.
Rip Esselstyn:
And it's just some strawberries. And these are organic strawberries from the Coke farm, they're grown in San Juan Baptiste, California. But the reason I was so enamored with these is look at the packaging. Right? And look at ... Don't these look wonderful?
Jess Hegarty:
They do, they're beautiful. And it's cardboard, not plastic.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, not plastic. And so I was just so enamored with that that I wanted to buy it and I wanted to bring it to everybody's attention. Because we're at a place and time right now where we all have to, basically, collectively work on being more environmentally conscientious.
Jess Hegarty:
Absolutely. And I assume that's compostable. Does it say it on the back maybe? I mean, I know it's cardboard with very little ink on it, so I assume so. But that's absolutely wonderful. Thank you Coke Farms in California.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yup, no wax, no plastic, no labels, please recycle. Yeah.
Jess Hegarty:
Amazing.
Rip Esselstyn:
Ready-recyclable.
Jess Hegarty:
Wonderful, wonderful.
Rip Esselstyn:
So with that, let's dive in today. I know you've been doing your research for today's episode. When Jess digs into a topic, watch out. But we're going to be talking about plant-based milks. I mean, what is a plant-based person to do in 2021 when you have such an amazing oasis of options before you. What is the most environmentally friendly? What is the tastiest? What is the healthiest? Because I just don't know what to make of it all.
Jess Hegarty:
Absolutely. We are literally sitting here surrounded by options that we picked up, you and I collectively. And yeah, there's a lot ... There's so many options out there. So we want to talk about what to be on the lookout for, in terms of ingredients, and how to pick the alternative milk that's right for you.
Rip Esselstyn:
And here's the thing I've got to say. And that's when I started going plant-based back in the late 1980's, literally you had soy milk and you had rice milk and that was it. And now I think they're making milks out of just about every ... Black bean milk, why not? Pinto bean milk, why not?
Jess Hegarty:
Yeah, definitely. Well Rip, I'm so excited for today's episode. I've been thinking about it for weeks, and I have a lot of information that I'm eager to share. But the reason we're talking about alternative milks here and now is because our listeners are going to need it to go with their ...
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, Rip's Big Bowl Cereal.
Jess Hegarty:
Woo, it's coming back, it's coming back, and it's coming back soon, really, really soon. And we are excited. As I said, we do have a lot of options today, so since we don't have Rip's Big Bowl Cereal to do the sampling, I thought it would be nice to enjoy today's Snackables episode with milk and cookies. So we'll be testing a few of these plant-based milks. And since two of our granolas are inspired by cookies, we've got the classic oatmeal raisin and the tahini chocolate chip, I thought it would be fun to use them in taste-testing. Sound good?
Rip Esselstyn:
Sounds like a blast.
Jess Hegarty:
Awesome. So before we get started, I have to do a shout-out for those who ordered granolas and participated in the survey we sent out, thank you so much, you make my job easier. We got so many responses, our audience is just unbelievable. And in this survey we included a question about what granola flavor should we do next? We have four SKUs out there and we're thinking about a fifth. And it sounds like our customers are most interested in lemon blueberry scone as the next flavor. Sounds good right? And this was actually a suggestion from John Fitzgerald, one of our Plantstrong team members. So thanks, John, for your creative brilliance. And in the poll, we did leave a write-in recommendation. So if you had an idea for a flavor, you could write it in. Would you like to hear some suggestions from our community?
Rip Esselstyn:
I would love to hear the creative juices flowing.
Jess Hegarty:
Yes, so there were lots of ideas for pies, we heard cherry, pecan, there was a key lime, which I think sounds interesting, right? Peanut butter was another common theme, I saw peanut butter and jelly sandwich, peanut butter cup, and then some tropical flavors like a pineapple upside down cake. Mango habanero, isn't that good? Like a sweet and spicy. So thank you listeners.
Rip Esselstyn:
No I'm not ... No, I don't think ... I like the mango, but you lost me with the habanero taste associated with that one.
Jess Hegarty:
No? Not a good combination?
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Jess Hegarty:
So we're going to toy around with R&D and see what shakes out, so be on the lookout for that. But today we're here to talk about alternative milks and I wanted to start with a story, a memorable moment from the immersion that I attended, your immersion that I attended in 2018. And I had the opportunity to have a one-on-one discussion with Dr. Doug [Lyle 00:10:20] who wrote the Pleasure Trap and a number of other things and is a plant-based advocate. I think he works for True North, right?
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, he's a brilliant evolutionary psychologist and he's been working on ... He's been part of our immersion program team now for about seven years.
Jess Hegarty:
Well wonderful. I was so grateful to talk to him. And while you're at the immersions you're getting all of this great information about health and you just want to share it with your friends, you want to tell people about it because it's so profound.
Rip Esselstyn:
And specifically, Doug has a whole lecture called Getting Along Without Going Along that is absolutely brilliant, but go ahead-
Jess Hegarty:
What does that mean? What does the Getting Along Without Going Along, what does that mean?
Rip Esselstyn:
Basically it's a way of overcoming all of the objections that people are going to throw at you when they find out that you're doing something as ridiculous as going plant-based without upsetting the apple cart.
Jess Hegarty:
Exactly. People get very defensive about their food choices.
Rip Esselstyn:
So Doug basically gives you four different rebuttals to handle ... People say, "Where do you get your protein?" And "Why are you doing something as crazy as this?" And maybe in another episode, we can talk about what those look like.
Jess Hegarty:
Yeah, sounds good. Well the question I had for Doug is with everything that I'm hearing today about meat and eating more vegetables and removing oil and avoiding dairy, what's the one thing that I should focus on when I'm talking to friends and family? What's the one thing I should ... For my friends who have kids, what's the one thing I should tell them? And he said, "Four words. Get them off dairy." So that was the low-hanging fruit of if you can do one thing to help out a friend and family member, get them off dairy. Which is why I'm so glad to see all these alternative milk products. So why do you think that's just so important? Why do you think that was his answer?
Rip Esselstyn:
Well it's multi-fold, actually. Children, there's a very strong link between Type 1 diabetes and consumption of dairy products at a young age because of those undigested amino acids actually pass through the semi-permeable membrane of our intestines. And then our bodies actually see these as kind of an invader. So we go in, and we inadvertently, by killing off these undigested amino acids in cow milk, this friendly fire now goes upstream and actually attacks our pancreatic beta cells that are basically a mirror image of these undigested cow's milk amino acids. And now basically you have a pancreas that is not working properly.
Rip Esselstyn:
So Doug's big thing is with children, that's not fair. And then, of course, we have the litany of reasons of why we're not fans of cows milk or dairy products. We can start with the casein that comprises 86% of the protein in dairy products, that really is a growth accelerator. And it's put there by the mother cow to grow the baby cow as fast as possible. And by consuming all these cheese, yogurts, ice cream, cows milk, we're unwittingly basically fertilizing dormant tumor and cancer cells. So that's the big thing there. And of course, it's loaded with saturated fat, it's loaded with cholesterol. It's like I say in some of my former podcasts and some of my talks, it's kind of a different form of meat. So we have runny meat, we have liquid meat, we have hardened meat, all that stuff. So if that doesn't make you want to gag I don't know what will.
Jess Hegarty:
And it's highly addictive too, right?
Rip Esselstyn:
Because of the casomorphins.
Jess Hegarty:
The casomorphin.
Rip Esselstyn:
There are low levels of opiates that are there in the mother's work, for good reason, to keep the baby cow from drifting too far from mama.
Jess Hegarty:
Totally.
Rip Esselstyn:
But it's so bizarre when you think about it, that we are the only mammals that drink another mammals milk, and not only as infants but as adults.
Jess Hegarty:
It's a little strange when you think about it, yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, a little strange.
Jess Hegarty:
Well, look at all of these options we have in front of us. There's soymilk, almond, coconut, oat milk, rice milk, hemp, flax. It feels like any nut, seed, or grain that you can think of, you can pulverize it and make a milk out of it.
Rip Esselstyn:
You can milk it.
Jess Hegarty:
You can milk it. What's the strangest alternative milk you've seen on the market?
Rip Esselstyn:
For me, it is probably when I saw flaxseed milk. I was like, "Really? You can actually somehow get enough ... Squeeze enough out of a flaxseed to get a milk?" It just seemed kind of nutty to me. And then I'll tell you the strangest tasting one that I've had.
Jess Hegarty:
Oh boy, okay.
Rip Esselstyn:
I don't know if you want that now or later.
Jess Hegarty:
Go for it.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, to me, the hemp milk. The hemp milk to me has just got a taste where I was like, "You've got to be kidding me."
Jess Hegarty:
It's a little strange.
Rip Esselstyn:
It's a little unappealing to me. So yeah, not a fan.
Jess Hegarty:
I have a mild hemp oat option that I'd like you to try here in a little bit. Have you tried pea milk? Like green pea milk? Have you seen this?
Rip Esselstyn:
I haven't tried it because I'm assuming that it doesn't actually come from whole peas, it probably comes from-
Jess Hegarty:
Powder.
Rip Esselstyn:
Pea protein powder.
Jess Hegarty:
Right.
Rip Esselstyn:
And I steer clear of that.
Jess Hegarty:
Yeah, I haven't been able to find a really good clean, oil-free option in pea milks, not to say that they're not out there. Have you tried banana milk? Mooala is the brand. Have you seen this in Whole Foods?
Rip Esselstyn:
I've never tried a commercialized version of banana milk, but I make my banana milk all the time. I even got a recipe for banana milk in the Engine 2 diet.
Jess Hegarty:
Oh what? I didn't know that.
Rip Esselstyn:
From 2009.
Jess Hegarty:
Oh my gosh. Well here's the last one, and you were talking about your peaches and cream corn. Evan and I actually just came up with it on our own because we love corn so much. We're like, "Let's try corn milk!" And we tried it one time, it was absolutely delicious. Sweet, creamy, buttery. We put a little bit of salt in it of course, it was absolutely delicious and of course we'll share that recipe with our listeners.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well stop the presses, I think Plantstrong needs to come out with a corn milk.
Jess Hegarty:
Nobody's doing it, I haven't found it on the market.
Rip Esselstyn:
A peaches and cream corn milk.
Jess Hegarty:
Oh my gosh, it sounds good to me. Sounds good to me. So one thing I wanted to draw your attention to is around the world, many of these plant-based milk brands are facing controversy about the way that they label their products. So the dairy industry argues that the word milk on packaging is confusing to customers.
Rip Esselstyn:
I feel that's been out in the airwaves for years.
Jess Hegarty:
Yes it has. So have you heard of something called the Dairy Pride Act?
Rip Esselstyn:
Dairy Pride Act, have no idea.
Jess Hegarty:
Let me tell you about it. So the Dairy Pride Act, originally proposed in 2017, so it's been out for a number of years, but it was back on the table in 2021, would require that non-dairy products made from nuts, seeds, plants, et cetera, no longer be confusingly mislabeled (their words) with dairy-based terms such as milk, yogurt, or cheese. And in this bill, they cite that Americans aren't meeting the recommended daily intake of dairy. Thank goodness, because I mean it's like three servings of dairy. And also in the bill, they cite that consumers know that dairy products provide key nutrients necessary for child development and adult health, however the labeling of plant-based alternatives as "milk" conveys a nutritional equivalency that is not accurate. To which I say yeah they're not nutritionally equivalent, thank goodness.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right.
Jess Hegarty:
Right?
Rip Esselstyn:
I think they're grabbing at straws here. I mean, gosh.
Jess Hegarty:
Totally. And what a dis to the customer to say that it's confusing to them.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well and the other thing, getting three servings of dairy a day ... I mean, I could be completely wrong here but my understanding is that as Americans we're probably far exceeding that with all the ice cream and the yogurts and the milk that's out there, and cheese. I bet you we're getting more like five or six.
Jess Hegarty:
Yup, I think you're right Rip. But I understand why the dairy industry is kind of shaking in their boots, right? Because everybody is starting to drink alternative milks. Sales alone last year hit 2.5 billion, and that's up 20% versus the prior year. So plant-based milks have been growing and they're continuing to do so. And they're prying market share away from traditional dairy. Right now plant-based milks make up 15% of the total market share.
Rip Esselstyn:
15%. So that, to me, like if I was to go ... Again, because we shop at more natural grocery stores for the most part, I feel like they represent at least 50% when I look at the yogurts, when I look at the ... Well, maybe it's the ...
Jess Hegarty:
Number of SKUs and the assortment is like 50%? I think you're absolutely right. I've seen that with yogurt. I've seen that with milks as well. And it seems like ice cream is starting to expand in the frozen section.
Rip Esselstyn:
Although I will say, we went on vacation a couple of weeks ago to Wisconsin and we went to the equivalent of their Piggly Wiggly, and they had one plant-based milk offering, I think it was an almond milk, in the refrigerator section and that was it.
Jess Hegarty:
Wow.
Rip Esselstyn:
So I think it depends on the part of the country you're in too.
Jess Hegarty:
Where you're at. I know, we're in our Austin bubble, it's true. Well I know we don't typically talk politics on Snackables, but this information was so interesting to me. And it's not the only controversy in the alternative milk world right now.
Rip Esselstyn:
Ooh, what else? Yeah.
Jess Hegarty:
So Oatly, my favorite oat milk brand, went public in May of this year. And I was so excited because I really like to support plant-based brands and publicly traded options are few and far between. I only know of Beyond Meat and then Mission Avocado, those are the two, right? So Oatly coming out was a big deal for me.
Rip Esselstyn:
Do you actually own some Oatly?
Jess Hegarty:
I do, I do. So there's an app called Robin Hood that I've downloaded and you can securely transfer money from your bank account and then buy stock. So right now, Oatly is at $18 a share. You can transfer $18 over and buy a share of Oatly.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow.
Jess Hegarty:
Isn't that cool.
Rip Esselstyn:
So it's $18 now, what's been the high, what's been the low? Do you know?
Jess Hegarty:
I think it got up to low 20s, maybe 24. It was hovering around 22. So it's dipped a little bit and there's a reason why, actually.
Rip Esselstyn:
Is this a buying opportunity or not?
Jess Hegarty:
I think so. And last year for Christmas, I love getting stocks for kids because I think plant-based is the future, I fully expect it to grow. Last year we got our nieces and nephews Beyond Meat stock, so this year they're going to get Oatly stock. But it might be time to do some Christmas shopping in the summertime because yeah, Oatly is down. And the reason why is a few weeks back, a hedge fund wrote a 124 page scathing report about Oatly. And one thing I'd like to add about the hedge fund that published this, they actually were shorting Oatly.
Jess Hegarty:
So you can buy stocks or you can short stocks, and if you want me to give a little bit of a tidbit about that ...
Rip Esselstyn:
So when you're shorting it, you're basically betting that it's going to go down in price. So that sounds a little bit like a conflict of interest.
Jess Hegarty:
Doesn't it? Yeah, doesn't it? So they said that oat milk is a fad, it's not going to stay as popular, it's just what's hot right now. They accused Oatly of intentionally creating scarcity. So not producing as much as they could so that they had out of stock so that it's hard to get. I find that hard to believe. As people in the plant-based retail world, if we can sell it, we want to sell it and capture that revenue. I don't think Oatly would be trying to do that. They were accused of accounting shenanigans which sounds scary-
Rip Esselstyn:
Shenanigans?
Jess Hegarty:
Shenanigans, right? You don't want to hear that. But when you look into it, it's actually that their financial forecasts were really optimistic, so they thought they were going to sell a lot of Oatly. I don't know if I'd call that shenanigans.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well but wasn't it like ... I want to say it was maybe two or three years ago where I heard that every ... Is it a bartista was using Oatly-
Jess Hegarty:
Oh, barista.
Rip Esselstyn:
Barista, thank you. And every barista was using Oatly's oat milk because it performed so well in that environment.
Jess Hegarty:
Absolutely. Oatly kind of gained popularity, it started off at the fancy coffee shops in New York City and customers were asking, "Where can I get this?" So it came from Sweden to the U.S. It's been around for 25 years. Right? It just wasn't popular. Came over from Sweden and Howard Schultz, the CEO of Starbucks, is actually an investor in Oatly. So that kind of tells you how it performs with coffee, right?
Rip Esselstyn:
Well you know, it's interesting, if you remember we had some Engine 2 almond milks.
Jess Hegarty:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Rip Esselstyn:
We had an original, we had a vanilla. And then because oat milk has always been my favorite, once I discovered oat milk, at least 12-15 years ago, the specific brand, I was like, "Let's do an Engine 2 oat milk." Because it was authentic and it resonated with me. And the manufacturer we were looking to partner with was Oatly, this is probably six years ago, seven years ago. And for a number of reasons it never actually worked out, but they were fantastic.
Jess Hegarty:
That's amazing. Wow, what a crazy story. Oh, we might be a different world if that had worked out. But yeah, oat milk is great, it's one of the most environmentally friendly options out there. And I love the brand, I think Oatly is the tastiest on the market, and trust me, I've tasted nearly all of them. It just wins again and again.
Rip Esselstyn:
Why do you think that is, do you know?
Jess Hegarty:
I have some theories, I have some theories that we can get into here in a second. But yeah, Oatly's stock is down. I think right now it's at $18. So I'm going to do some Christmas shopping and keep my fingers crossed. You know, of course Oatly is rejecting all of the claims that are coming from this hedge fund with the conflict of interest. So yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
So you mentioned the environment. Do you want to talk about the environment?
Jess Hegarty:
Sure Rip, so one of the questions I hear a lot is what is the most environmentally friendly alternative milk? So I have a ranking here, going from least environmentally friendly to most. But before we dive in, I want to make sure our listeners know that one thing is clear, all alternative milks are far better for the planet than dairy. So if I'm kind of poo-pooing almond milk for one reason or another, it's still better than dairy alternatives.
Rip Esselstyn:
So can you put that into perspective by giving us how much water is used in cow's milk?
Jess Hegarty:
Sure. So for example, almond is lowest on the environmental ranking here and it's because it requires more water than any other dairy alternative. So it takes about 130 pints of water to produce a single glass of almond milk. But that's still half as much as traditional dairy. Some studies say it's 2.5 times the amount of water from almond milk is required to make dairy milk. So pretty significant. It's not the best for bees, it's really hard on them. These pollinators are working really hard to pollinate the almond trees and that puts a lot of strain on their colony, so for that reason it's ranking kind of low.
Jess Hegarty:
Also at the bottom is coconut, which is less relevant to our audience, since we probably aren't using coconut milk. Here at Plantstrong we want to steer clear of that, right?
Rip Esselstyn:
It's true and let me just dive in there for a sec. Like for example, one of these ... Where's our coconut milk? I think it might be right over here.
Jess Hegarty:
We got one, where is it?
Rip Esselstyn:
I have no ... Is it over there?
Jess Hegarty:
Oh, is it this one right here with the lemon poppy seed muffin recipe on the back?
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh yeah, that's it. Yeah. So the thing with coconut milk is it's going to be at least 50% fat, depending upon the variety. And most of it is saturated fat. So it's very, very high in saturated fat. I think we know that coconut fat is 90% saturated fat typically. So we're just not fans of saturated fat because of the preponderance of the peer-reviewed research that really links it to heart disease, insulin resistance, cancer, and some of these things. So we're not a fan of coconut milk.
Jess Hegarty:
It makes sense. Environmentally, in some ways it's a pretty good choice. It has a low impact on the land, low water usage. But most coconuts are grown in Indonesia, the Philippines, India, so of course there's the transportation to get them over here to the U.S. And the other reason for their low ranking is questionable human rights issues. So many farmers don't earn enough money for themselves and their family, so if you are consuming coconut milk, make sure that you're looking for those fair trade certified options.
Jess Hegarty:
All right, next, rice milk. It is a water guzzler. It has a huge water footprint. It's also associated with higher greenhouse gas emissions. It was one of my favorites growing up, but it's actually really hard to find a good oil-free unsweetened option.
Rip Esselstyn:
I was just going to say, I've never been able to find a rice milk that doesn't have oil.
Jess Hegarty:
Yup, I don't know that they're out there. And there's a lot of fertilizers used, and those can pollute nearby waterways, so if you're going to purchase a rice milk because that's your favorite, I would say make sure it's organic.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Jess Hegarty:
Hazelnut milk, starting to get better. Hazelnuts are environmentally superior to almonds since they get pollinated by wind, rather than bees. They also grow in more moist environments like the Pacific Northwest, rather than Southern California, like most almonds. And there's more water in the Pacific Northwest, California is facing a drought. So hazelnut milk is a better option. Soy is actually a great option for the environment. Low greenhouse gas, efficient land use, the lowest water consumption of any of the alternative milks I found out there, just barely beating out oats, just barely. But the primary environmental drawback to soymilk is that soybeans are grown in massive quantities around the world to feed livestock, for meat, for dairy, so there is some land use issues there, so many soybeans are grown.
Rip Esselstyn:
And they're probably ... Most of those are probably genetically modified too.
Jess Hegarty:
Exactly. So if you're going to drink soy milk, which we recommend that you do, make sure it's made from organic soybeans, and if you can find it, grown in the U.S.
Jess Hegarty:
And the winner for the most environmentally friendly milk?
Rip Esselstyn:
Ding, ding, ding.
Jess Hegarty:
Oat milk. Much like soy, oat milk appears to have less of a carbon footprint than many of the options out there. It requires one-sixth the amount of water of almond milk. Pretty amazing right? It's also known as a low-input crop. So when it's grown in rotation, oats create crop diversity that reduce soil erosion and help lower the risk of other plant diseases. Isn't that amazing?
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. You did your homework on that.
Jess Hegarty:
Thanks.
Rip Esselstyn:
That's wonderful.
Jess Hegarty:
Yeah, I wanted to give a good ranking. All right, question number two. What's the healthiest type of alternative milk? And again, it depends on what your definition of health is, right? What would you say? What's your favorite? What do you think ranks?
Rip Esselstyn:
I would say it would have to be probably an unsweetened variety, for the most part, of either a soy or a almond or an oat.
Jess Hegarty:
Yeah, something really clean, right?
Rip Esselstyn:
So we'll talk a little bit about how to pick alternative milks and what to be on the lookout for. If I had to pick one, I'd say soy milk.
Jess Hegarty:
Yeah. I'd say soy milk. It's the only mainstream alternative milk that's made from beans. And we know how healthy beans are for us.
Rip Esselstyn:
To me, it again depends what you're after. So for most of us, we don't need to worry about protein. If anything, if you listen to the podcast I had with Darin Olien we talked about how actually, if anything, we should be eating a low-protein diet as opposed to a high protein. And if you don't care about protein, then you're not going to be drawn as much to soy milks. This, right here, this unsweetened Eden Soy, one eight-ounce glass is 12 grams.
Jess Hegarty:
12 grams of protein, wow.
Rip Esselstyn:
12 grams of protein, it's over the moon high. Whereas this almond milk right here, this has got 1 gram of protein right there.
Jess Hegarty:
Yeah, I think soy milk is the only one that really competes with traditional dairy in terms of soy. So if you're choosing traditional dairy for the protein content, opt for some soymilk. If protein is less important to you, go for another one.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Jess Hegarty:
Great. So speaking of soy, what's everyone afraid of when it comes to soy consumption, Rip? Why does it get such a bad rap?
Rip Esselstyn:
Well if you're a woman, you think that it's got estrogens that are going to promote breast cancer. If you're a male, you think it's basically ... You don't want estrogens because you're going to grow man boobies or your testicles will shrink and shrivel up. And really, what we discovered is that none of that really has any merit to speak of. Especially when we're talking whole soy in its natural state, as close to grown as possible. So we're talking about edamame, we're talking about tofu, tempeh, miso. And then of course, soy milk, where it's not soy protein isolates or concentrates, but it's whole soybeans like this Eden Soy or the WestSoy, that is something we can get behind.
Rip Esselstyn:
And here's the thing I think you're looking for. What we now know is that these ... they're actually isoflavones, so these phytoestrogens that are actually isoflavones, they actually can regulate the hormonally active compounds in us by blocking these estrogen receptors. It's absolutely brilliant. So it does just the opposite of the myths that are floating around out there, that it's going to raise my estrogen levels. No, the reality is it will regulate them and if anything, it will lower them.
Jess Hegarty:
That is so crazy to me. And I remember seeing the Game Changers talked about that. I thought that was one of the best sound bytes to come out of the movie, is it doesn't raise your estrogen, actually it blocks estrogen absorption from other food sources.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, and to me the biggest irony is that the highest, basically ... I should say the number one way that Americans are getting estrogen in their diets is from dairy products. Because that lactating cow's estrogen levels go up 33 fold, and now you're consuming that cow's milk, that cow's yogurt, that cow's cheese. The ice cream is loaded, with not only IGF-1s, Insulin-like Growth Factor number one, but also with these estrogens.
Jess Hegarty:
The irony is amazing. The irony is amazing, and I was actually wondering, do you think big dairy could be promoting this misinformation about estrogen in soy? Nevermind, no conspiracy theories on Plantstrong Snackables, no no.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right.
Jess Hegarty:
Well what I was doing was I wanted to taste test. We have two brands with us today, Eden Soy's unsweetened soy milk and WestSoy's unsweetened soy milk. And the reason we like these is both of them have two ingredients, they are just-
Rip Esselstyn:
Water and whole soybeans right?
Jess Hegarty:
Water and soybeans, it's amazing. Both of them are organic. So let's do this once and for all. This one here is the Eden Soy and this one here is the WestSoy. We can do it back-to-back and see what we think. And what I'm looking for in soy milk is I don't want a super soy taste. I want something mild and neutral, let's see.
Rip Esselstyn:
So this is the ... On the outside.
Jess Hegarty:
I tried the WestSoy first.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh this is the WestSoy, okay.
Jess Hegarty:
Oh, no. Here's your WestSoy. It's great, creamy.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yup.
Jess Hegarty:
Pretty mild.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yup.
Jess Hegarty:
All right, let's compare it to the Eden. Ooh interesting. They do have different flavors.
Rip Esselstyn:
Maybe it's me, and maybe it's because one is refrigerated and one's not, but the Eden Soy, to me, has a smell as I'm putting it up to my mouth.
Jess Hegarty:
Mm-hmm (affirmative), I notice it. It's not terribly off-putting, but it is a smell.
Rip Esselstyn:
And the smell to me is kind of a little bit like eggs, which to me is a little bit off-putting.
Jess Hegarty:
Yes, okay I'm getting that. I don't disagree.
Rip Esselstyn:
It's kind of like scrambled eggs.
Jess Hegarty:
I don't disagree.
Rip Esselstyn:
Whereas this one, I don't have any kind of an odor.
Jess Hegarty:
Agree. The WestSoy has no odor contributor.
Rip Esselstyn:
If you guys want to do this at home, do it and then let us know if you agree.
Jess Hegarty:
Yeah, let us know which ones are your favorite. So I mentioned that we'd be trying to give some information as to how to evaluate alternative milks. When you're standing in the supermarket, how to pick, what to look out for. Number one, of course, is oil for those living a Plantstrong lifestyle, the first thing we want to be on the lookout for is those added oils. And that's how most brands are getting that creamy milk-like mouth feel. You have to be really vigilant, it's in everything.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, and in just picking up these this morning, I'm seeing rapeseed oil, I'm seeing-
Jess Hegarty:
Safflower oil.
Rip Esselstyn:
Safflower oil, I'm seeing canola oil. I think those are the three biggies that I'm seeing in most milks.
Jess Hegarty:
Yeah, for sure.
Rip Esselstyn:
I'm not seeing olive oil in the milks.
Jess Hegarty:
No, haven't seen that.
Rip Esselstyn:
Why? Why no olive oil?
Jess Hegarty:
Why no olive oil? Why no coconut oil? Just kidding. So the second thing I'd encourage folks to be on the lookout for is extra ingredients. We want to keep it really simple. I try to find options that are free from all those unnecessary thickeners, gums, emulsifiers. I think about carrageenan, which comes from seaweed. There's some evidence that says it's okay, some evidence that says it's not. I want to be safe, so I'll try to stay away.
Rip Esselstyn:
It's really a fancy name for Irish moss, and it has a cousin called [pollygeenan 00:39:40] that in some tests they did with rats specifically at really high levels, it gave them cancer. But I think that the research with carrageenan is completely different, but it's got a bad rap.
Jess Hegarty:
It does, it really really does. Yup, it contributes to leaky gut is what some of the evidence says, it's inflammatory. So if you can get it without it, why not? And there are a lot brands without it. So one of my favorite brands I brought today, I brought the standard almond milk and the ultra creamy cashew.
Rip Esselstyn:
Are we going to try any of that?
Jess Hegarty:
Absolutely. So Rip, can you read the ingredients on the cashew for me?
Rip Esselstyn:
So the cashew, I don't even know where to start here because it's so ridiculous. Ready?
Jess Hegarty:
Yes.
Rip Esselstyn:
Filtered water, cashews. Period.
Jess Hegarty:
Nice. I've got the almond milk here. Filtered water, almonds. Period. Exactly. You want to ... Yeah, cheers. Let's test them out here.
Rip Esselstyn:
Are we just going to go right from the ... Are you going to go into your-
Jess Hegarty:
Can you carefully do it? Can you carefully pour?
Rip Esselstyn:
No. So I'm going to empty one of the [crosstalk 00:40:55].
Jess Hegarty:
All right.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh my gosh, and it's-
Jess Hegarty:
It's so creamy, it's very creamy.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. So this is 130 calories per 8 ounces, 10 grams of fat, of course it's coming from those. Let's see this one is the cashews. It's nice.
Jess Hegarty:
Very creamy, right? Wouldn't that be great in a sauce? So yeah, I wanted to talk about this. The almond milk, I'm looking at this as well. 130 calories, 11 grams of fat. But again, it's coming from the nuts. And when you compare this to another brand, like we've got Almond Breeze over there, 30 calories, 2.5 grams of fat, still a really high fat to calorie ratio, but the difference is that brand is diluted a little bit more with water, this is a little bit creamier. So I say this brand is a premium, you're going to pay somewhere between five and six dollars for a container, but you're not paying for a bunch of extra water. So I think this is a great deal, if it's too creamy for you, you can always thin it out.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, and one of the things ... And I'm saying this because ... And I'm not promoting it is we have a Nutr milk at home, and it's this machine, and you can just throw whatever nut you want, water, if you want to sweeten it you can add a date or two, a little vanilla extract, and you've got homemade plant-based milk and you know exactly what's in it, and that feels good.
Jess Hegarty:
Yeah, that's great. I don't know if you want to pour that into here and then try the almond milk.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh, I already did it.
Jess Hegarty:
Oh you did? Oh good. So one thing that I love about this brand, Elmhurst, is it used to be a dairy farm, actually, and they saw the trends over the decades about how dairy consumption was declining and actually pivoted and now do exclusively plant-based milks. They call themselves the dairy that gave up dairy, which I think is really cute.
Rip Esselstyn:
That's brilliant and good for Elmhurst. And they're out of New York somewhere too.
Jess Hegarty:
Yes, yes, they are. And you're starting to be able to purchase it. It was only in regional Whole Foods, but now it's starting to gain some traction, so excited for them. They also, speaking of unusual alternative milks, they had a peanut milk in their assortment. I saw it online, I couldn't find it in stores, but sounds like something I want to try. So-
Rip Esselstyn:
I wonder if it tastes like peanut butter.
Jess Hegarty:
I wonder too, it would be great in some peanut butter recipes, that would be wonderful. Speaking of peanut butter recipes, another thing you want to look out for when you're choosing an alternative milk is sweeteners. Of course, we want to find those unsweetened options. We don't want anything with sugar or cane sugar or agave, what have you. But just because you don't see any sugar or sweeteners on the label doesn't mean your body isn't feeling the effects of sugar from some of these milks.
Rip Esselstyn:
Are you going to burst my bubble here?
Jess Hegarty:
I'm so sorry Rip, I have a juicy bit of information that was actually born from a question you asked about a year ago, do you remember what the question was?
Rip Esselstyn:
I think I do, I think it was related to the Pacific brand oat milk, because it is what I've been drinking for a long time. And I couldn't understand how it can have 17 grams of sugar when there was no sugar in the ingredients.
Jess Hegarty:
Yeah, so it says in the nutrition fact panel-
Rip Esselstyn:
So I thought it was just naturally occurring-
Jess Hegarty:
From the oats.
Rip Esselstyn:
From the oats.
Jess Hegarty:
That makes sense, yeah. So again, you see 17 grams of added sugar in the nutrition fact panel, but no sugar in the ingredients, why is this sweet? And when you look at how Pacific Oat brand actually compares to other brands, your typical store brand almond milk is going to have 0 grams of sugar, the unsweetened almond milk. A soy milk is going to range from 1-3 grams, I think WestSoy has 3 grams of sugar. Oat milks, you see a range of 4-7 grams of sugar per serving generally, Oatly is sitting right at 7. And then Pacific is off the charts at 17.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, something doesn't pass the sniff test there does it?
Jess Hegarty:
Right. Well Rip, that mystery has been solved. We found out that oat milk producers actually use enzymes to convert oat starch into sugars. So they're taking the complex carbohydrates from the oats and breaking them down into simple sugars, namely glucose which is sugar, and maltose which is malt sugar. And guess what? They don't have to list the enzyme as an ingredient, so that's why you don't see it in there.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, there's no enzyme in there.
Jess Hegarty:
There's no enzyme. You would see like an amylase or something like that. Enzymes actually qualify as a processing aid and therefore do not need to be disclosed in the ingredients list according to the FDA.
Rip Esselstyn:
That seems a little slippery.
Jess Hegarty:
A little slippery, I agree. So if you drink this, I think you're likely to see the same blood sugar spike, the same insulin response, as if you were drinking a sweetened oat milk, so just something to consider.
Rip Esselstyn:
You know, another thing I think just for our listeners, when we say something's got 8 grams of sugar in it or 16 grams, just so you can put that in perspective, there's 4 grams in a teaspoon. So just divide it by 4. So if there's 16, divided by 4, there's 4 teaspoons in that. That Coca Cola that's got 39 grams of sugar, we'll round it up to 40, it's got 10 teaspoons of sugar.
Jess Hegarty:
Oh my gosh, amazing. Well fun fact, I thought this was interesting. In doing my research, I found that Oatly used to claim that their milks had no added sugar in their advertisements, but they were actually challenged by Campbell's, as in Campbell's soup, who's the parent company of Pacific Oat Milk. They alleged that they were misleading customers, so Oatly voluntarily removed this claim from their marketing. I think that's fair, I think it's fair.
Rip Esselstyn:
So do you think that ... Was Oatly using the enzymes too?
Jess Hegarty:
I think Oatly is probably using an enzyme, they have about 7 grams of sugar per serving, and they list it right here, 7 grams of added sugars. So they are a little sweet, but significantly less sweet.
Rip Esselstyn:
So let me see, does this actually have sugar in the ingredients?
Jess Hegarty:
No way, no way Jose, not in Oatly.
Rip Esselstyn:
So I guess my question then is with something that is made from just oats and water, how much sugar is in there, naturally occurring sugar?
Jess Hegarty:
Yeah, it's a good question, I don't know.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, we'll find out.
Jess Hegarty:
We'll find out. So all of the milks we've talked about thus far, I think they could be a little bit healthier, and let me plead my case here. If you think about how they're made, and really they're just blended pulverized with water and then filtered, AKA stripped of the fiber, stripped of the protein, et cetera, it's a lot like traditional juice when you think about it, right? Like an apple juice has way less juice, it's negligible compared to an actual sauce, right? So I have for you a whole food plant-based milk, where there is no filtering, you just blend the crap out of it so it's nice and creamy, and you can use it as a milk, you can use it as a creamer if you want to add less water. So we'll be demoing that here in a little bit and of course posting the recipe.
Rip Esselstyn:
Ooh, that will be exciting.
Jess Hegarty:
Great. So Rip, in conclusion, what is the tastiest alternative milk? And of course, this is a matter of personal preference, but what do you guys typically drink in your household?
Rip Esselstyn:
We do the Pacific Brand. When you and Evan brought to our attention what was going on, we are now also doing the reduced sugar Pacific, which you have it right there.
Jess Hegarty:
I do, I do. It has 80% less sugar than their original, probably because they are adding less ...
Rip Esselstyn:
Enzymes.
Jess Hegarty:
Exactly. But it's pretty good? Tasty?
Rip Esselstyn:
It is, although you can definitely tell the difference. But our three kids, you can just tell it's that much more watery.
Jess Hegarty:
Yeah, it's a little bit watery.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, we had a, and I'm not exaggerating, we had a $100 a month Pacific Oat Milk habit.
Jess Hegarty:
Budget, yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
That was going on.
Jess Hegarty:
Oh my gosh.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, it was hardcore.
Jess Hegarty:
It's very sweet. This is surprisingly sweet, actually, for only have 4 grams or 3 grams of added sugars.
Rip Esselstyn:
Will you hit me with some of that?
Jess Hegarty:
Yeah, I'm impressed. This is my first time trying it, it's actually delicious. I think it would go great with some of our granolas.
Rip Esselstyn:
I agree, that is nice.
Jess Hegarty:
It's delicious. Good option. So wow, Pacific Foods, thank you for that option. So I would say if somebody asked me what is the tastiest alternative milk, I would say it depends on the application. For drinking, I love oat milk. I think it's the closest to a traditional milk. I think oat meat takes the top spot, but this Pacific Foods brand is giving it a run for it's money. If I was eating it with something like cereals or granolas, I would opt for something without the sugar and the enzymes. I'd go for something like an almond milk or a cashew milk, usually nut flavors compliment whatever cereal you're having, something really mild. And if I was doing something where I was making a recipe that required it or baking or putting it in a smoothie, I would try to find a really mild soy. Again, it's got some protein, it's got some good fats in there.
Rip Esselstyn:
It's also creamy.
Jess Hegarty:
It's really creamy, it's delicious, as long as that soy is not over-powering, you can have some pretty pungent soy milks.
Rip Esselstyn:
I know on Sundays, which is the day that we always do pancakes or waffles, I always use either soy milk or oat milk in our waffles and pancakes, and we adore them.
Jess Hegarty:
Yup, so is that what ranks? You think they are the tastiest? The soy milk and oat milks?
Rip Esselstyn:
That's what we have in our house more than anything else.
Jess Hegarty:
Yeah, got ya. All right, well I think we are about to wrap up here, we can do a quick demo.
Rip Esselstyn:
Now what about ... Before you go on, because I noticed there is something here. For those die-hard people that need something in their coffee, they're not following the 7-day rescue protocol where we're not adding creamers or sugars to our coffees, what do you recommend for that barista?
Jess Hegarty:
Oh my gosh, well it's really hard to find a creamer that doesn't have extra oil, because again, how do you get that creamy mouth feel? You add oil. Well, our lovely brand Elmhurst has done a oat creamer that actually just uses the cream from blended hemp seeds. So again, super clean, it's an oat-hemp blend. You don't get that super hempy taste that you were talking about, it's very mild. So this would be my recommendation. Or I'd recommend the whole food plant-based creamer that we're going to make here in a little bit.
Rip Esselstyn:
Ooh, excellent.
Rip Esselstyn:
All right Jess, I think we're back. What kind of a plant-based milk are you going to show us?
Jess Hegarty:
Today we will do an unfiltered pumpkin and hemp seed blend that can be used in cereals. You can add less water and make it a coffee creamer, so a really great option. But again, what I love about this is you're not losing any of the fiber, you're not losing any of the protein, you're just blending up some nuts and some water.
Rip Esselstyn:
I like it.
Jess Hegarty:
Great.
Rip Esselstyn:
Can't wait to try it.
Jess Hegarty:
Yeah I'm excited. So what we've got here in the blender is six cups of chilled filtered water. I'm going to add in a quarter of a cup pumpkin seeds. Actually, I'll let you do that if you don't mind, it can be a heavy-handed quarter. And while you're doing that, I'm going to put in two tablespoons of shelled hemp seeds. One, two. All right. And I like for my milks to be just a little bit sweet. I'm going to add in two pitted majewel dates. You can do just one if you wanted to, but I'm using it for coffee so I wanted it to be a little bit sweeter. And then you know I always talk about it, I'm just going to put in a pinch of salt just to really set off those flavors. There we go, just a little bit. And if you wanted to do a vanilla version, you can use a little bit of vanilla extract, but it's not necessary. I'm just going to put a small ... maybe a half teaspoon in there.
Rip Esselstyn:
Perfect.
Jess Hegarty:
Just to give it some flavor. And then, you got the tamper? You're going to hold on to it tight?
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, I got it.
Jess Hegarty:
All right, I trust you. We've got some expensive equipment here. And then we are going to blend it on high speed until creamy.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, go for it.
Jess Hegarty:
All right, here we go.
Rip Esselstyn:
She's giving it all she's got Scotty.
Jess Hegarty:
All right, really putting this Vitamix to the test here.
Rip Esselstyn:
So when the Vitamix is on high, you can't actually adjust it from 1 to 10? Just on low?
Jess Hegarty:
Yes, high just means high, yup.
Rip Esselstyn:
Interesting.
Jess Hegarty:
So, you can-
Rip Esselstyn:
You gave it the higher power right there.
Jess Hegarty:
We gave it the higher power, yes, good job. And I would say, one thing I forgot to do in the beginning is if you want to blend the nuts and seeds first before adding the water, that assures that you'll get a really, really blended type texture. So you can see with this there's a little bit of particulates kind of floating to the bottom, but they're going to be so small you're not going to be able to taste them.
Rip Esselstyn:
We're a fan of particulates.
Jess Hegarty:
Yes, we are. All right, so where did those granolas go? I'm going to bust those out so we can sample. Do you want oatmeal raisin or do you want tahini chocolate chip cookie?
Rip Esselstyn:
No, tahini chocolate chip cookie.
Jess Hegarty:
Really? Speak for yourself.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, yeah. So am I putting this in here you think? A little bit?
Jess Hegarty:
Yeah, sure. You got a spoon?
Rip Esselstyn:
That's all right, I'll drink it.
Jess Hegarty:
You're going to drink it? Okay.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay.
Jess Hegarty:
All right.
Rip Esselstyn:
Do you want to do it or do you want me to?
Jess Hegarty:
I'll let you do it. I can pour me some in here.
Rip Esselstyn:
Hello.
Jess Hegarty:
It's nice and frothy. See all of those bubbles on the top?
Rip Esselstyn:
It certainly is a beautiful color.
Jess Hegarty:
Thank you.
Rip Esselstyn:
You got anything in there?
Jess Hegarty:
I'm going to just pop the granola with it. Awesome, thank you. All right, cheers. Thanks Rip.
Rip Esselstyn:
Thanks to the higher power. Oh yeah.
Jess Hegarty:
Isn't that amazing?
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Jess Hegarty:
It's pretty darn good.
Rip Esselstyn:
It's actually so much better than I ever thought.
Jess Hegarty:
Really? And again, so simple, just pumpkin seeds and hemp seeds, they blend up so well. Mmm, love it, with granola, great combination.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, guilt free decadence right there.
Jess Hegarty:
We will post the recipe for this and the corn milk in the show notes.
Rip Esselstyn:
Jess, thank you.
Jess Hegarty:
You're welcome Rip.
Rip Esselstyn:
Fabulous job with doing your due diligence and research with all things plant-based milk.
Jess Hegarty:
My pleasure, Rip. This was another great episode, thank you.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, thank you.
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