#193: Ruth Morley - This PLANTSTRONG Hiker Makes Plans, Not Excuses
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Ruth finding a photo op on the Florida Trail
When Ann Crile Esselstyn, tells you to do something, you do it! So, when she told me I had to interview today’s guest, I didn’t hesitate.
Ruth Morley is an adventurer. She’s rarely at home in Cincinnati because she’s usually found on a hiking trail. I’m talking about the Appalachian Trail, the Florida Trail, the Buckeye Trail, and Kilimanjaro…just to name just a few.
She’s even ridden her bike 3,000 miles across the country and competed in dozens of marathons and triathlons.
Oh, and did I mention that Ruth (known by her trail name, “Ruthless!”) is 70 years old and 100% PLANTSTRONG?
Today, she tells us how she prepares all of her food for these multi-week adventures and shares the details of her equipment and intricate logistics as a solo hiker.
This conversation is inspiring, informative, and downright motivational – not just to do these super-long hikes - but to do anything that is out of your comfort zone.
Her slogan? “Make plans, not excuses.”
Episode Highlights
5:00 She had lunch with Ann??
7:15 From depression to a game-changing moment - What inspired Ruth to go plant-based?
11:45 What immediate effect did it have on her emotional and physical well-being?
13:20 Where does this adventuring spirit come from?
15:15 How much does her backpack weigh?
16:30 Her athletic journey from runner to triathlete
18:30 Why she stays in “cheap” hotels and loves to hike alone
21:25 Self-supporting her hike on the Buckeye Trail
27:30 What a LASHer! How many major trails has she hiked? (Patagonia, Asia, Kilimanjaro, Appalachian Trail, Buckeye Trail, Florida Trail)
33:00 All about the food and prepping meals for these massive hikes! https://excaliburdehydrator.com/
41:50 Her preferred tent: https://durstongear.com/
Backpack: https://www.ula-equipment.com/product/circuit/
Sleeping Bag: UGQ https://ugqoutdoor.com/
Shoes: Topo Athletic https://www.topoathletic.com/ and Altra https://www.altrarunning.com/
Outdoor Research Hat https://www.outdoorresearch.com/us/
49:05 Hikers Midnight - How long does she sleep and how does she make her daily hiking schedule?
52:00 Who's the most interesting person she’s ever met on a trail?
54:05 What was her hardest moment on the trail?
1:02:00 What does she say to people who need the inspiration to eat better and move more?
Episode Resources
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Full YouTube Transcript
Rip Esselstyn:
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Ruth Morley:
He said, "What credit do you give your food?" And I said, "95%." I have run all those marathons, biked across the US, all these things, despite how my body felt. My hips hurt since I was in my 40s. My hips always hurt. And now I do these things because of how my body feels.
Rip Esselstyn:
I'm Rip Esselstyn and welcome to the PLANTSTRONG Podcast. The mission at PLANTSTRONG is to further the advancement of all things within the plant-based movement. We advocate for the scientifically proven benefits of plant-based living and envision a world that universally understands, promotes and prescribes plants as the solution to empowering your health, enhancing your performance, restoring the environment, and becoming better guardians to the animals we share this planet with. We welcome you wherever you are on your PLANTSTRONG journey and I hope that you enjoy the show.
If there's one thing that I've learned in my 60 years on earth, when Anne Crile Esselstyn, that's my mom, tells you to do something, you do it. So of course, when she told me that I had to interview today's guest, I was on it. Ruth Morley is an adventurer. She's rarely at home in Cincinnati because she's usually found on a trail hiking. I'm talking about the Appalachian Trail, the Florida Trail, the Buckeye Trail, just to name a few. She's even ridden her bike 3,000 miles across the country and competed in many triathlons. Oh, and did I mention that Ruth, known by her trail name Ruthless, is 70 years old and completely PLANTSTRONG. She tells us exactly how she plans her food for these multi-week adventures, how she manages being a solar hiker, and all the logistics that's involved, and of course, which equipment she prefers.
It's a fun conversation. It's inspiring, informative, and downright motivational. Not just to do these super long hikes, but to do anything that is out of our comfort zones. And her slogan, make plans, not excuses. She is living the life that many of us wish we could, but as Ruth likes to say, you can choose your own adventures, even in your own backyard. You never know what's around the corner so let's find out with Ruth, a.k.a. Ruthless Morley. Ruth Morley, welcome to the PLANTSTORNG Podcast.
Ruth Morley:
It is such an honor to be here, Rip. With all the lineup of previous guests you've had, I'm really flattered and very excited. This'll be fun.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Well, it will be a lot of fun. And the way that I came across you was you were fortunate enough to have lunch with my parents, Anne and Essy while I think you were maybe in the midst of hiking the Ohio Buckeye Trail.
Ruth Morley:
Exactly.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. And so you went over there for one of Anne's stupendous lunches. What did you have?
Ruth Morley:
I think it was called San Francisco Stew. Something like that. It was such a great feeling to sit at that table and think, I can eat anything on this table. It all passes the Esselstyn criteria. Now that was a thrill. Somehow I had heard that they lived somewhere near where I would be walking on the Buckeye Trail, and I contacted them and she said, "Yeah, come for lunch." It's like, what? And then we're sitting at the lunch table, and I think you FaceTimed her and she hands me the phone and says, "Here Rip, talk to Ruth. She wants to be on your show." And I thought, I have one minute to sell myself, and here I am. It was a great treat.
Rip Esselstyn:
And then after that, she said, "Rip, you really should have Ruth on the podcast. She's remarkable." Remarkable Ruth.
Ruth Morley:
Oh, that's nice. Thank you. I look at her as a big sister I'm trying to emulate.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, yeah. I try and emulate Anne every day as well. She is remarkable. So tell me this, the Ohio Buckeye Trail, can you remember where it was near my parents' house? Was it the Chagrin River or what?
Ruth Morley:
Yes. It was right along the river. I was going clockwise around it. I was heading northeast on it towards the Headlands Beach on Lake Erie. And yeah, Chagrin River, I believe was to the right. And somehow in my stalking of them, I found out it was close. I have followed your father's diet for ... I'm in my fourth year now. And I can't tell you how much I think of you and your family and all that you all do, and how great it made me feel and I wanted to tell him in person.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow. And so what led you to go down this path to try and find whole food plant-based, my father, myself, and everybody else that's so spectacular in this space?
Ruth Morley:
Well, I figured you'd ask me that. This was almost a case of life imitating art because I was on my sofa with crutches due to double pelvic stress fractures in my pelvis from the Appalachian Trail. New Hampshire and Maine did a number on me. And-
Rip Esselstyn:
Can I stop you for a sec?
Ruth Morley:
Yes.
Rip Esselstyn:
I want to stop you second, because I have heard ... I had Scott Jurek on the podcast after he set the speed record for the Appalachian Trail, and he said that, like you said, Maine, New Hampshire is absolutely brutal. Brutal. And so it sounds like your stress fractures are a testament to that.
Ruth Morley:
Yes. And sometimes there's hiking, but whenever I would find three to six feet of a dirt trail instead of jagged boulders, I had to climb over, I would take a photo of them. It was, look, there's a real trail here in Maine. It's not all boulders. So I was on the sofa with crutches. Stress fractures on both sides of the pelvis and very discouraged, very depressed, on antidepressant. You always get down when you come home from a big hike but this was really bad. And I always think is this ... I'm a cat, is this my ninth life? Am I going to finish?
So I'm going through Netflix watching for things to watch, and there's this picture of a bodybuilder and it says, the game changers. Badabing, it's done. It is done. I watch it. The next day I tell my husband, "Here's how I'm going to eat." And he is ever patient and understanding. And he said, "Okay, fine." And I had tried veganism before, but this was whole food plant-based eating. And it took me a while to learn how to do it. That was January of 2020. In March of that year, I went to Jane's Conference for women on cancer in Chagrin Falls or Cleveland area. And that was just as COVID was ramping up. And that's when I really started to learn and I bought this book and I bought your books, one or two, and I plunged in. And when I do things, I have to admit there's no tippy-toeing around. I just make up my mind, I know it's the right thing and I do it 100%. And that's what I did with his way of eating.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Yeah. So when you had the stress fractures, how had you been eating for those years?
Ruth Morley:
Well, let's see. I think I was maybe about 68 years so I started chewing at 67 years before. It's the usual standard American diet. And I was thinking the other day, what was my favorite food as a child? I think it was sugar. Honestly. I just think we had the Kool-Aid with the one cup of sugar per two quarts or whatever those pitchers are. As a senior in high school, I'd get home early, I'd watch TV and I would make a grilled brown sugar and butter sandwich. I loved my grandmother's apple dumplings. It was sugar.
I was always very thin and in my 20s and 30s ... Forties, I started marathons. I thought I was eating healthy. I used the good olive oil. "Good". I ate lots of salmon. I'm sure salmon on January 5th, 2020 was my last meat that I ever ate. But I just didn't know all that oil. And I'd eat a avocado a day full of ... Fine for some people, not for those with a family history that I have and it's just going right in my arteries. Yeah. This really turned things around. So ironically, I did get off the crutches within two weeks. It didn't magically heal my bones. It me healed me up here. I was holding myself back. I was so depressed. And I thought one day I can get by without these just a little bit. I'm going to wean myself off these crutches. Well, I weaned off within about an hour and I just didn't need them. I knew that I was good. I'm not saying the bones healed overnight, I'm saying it helped me mentally.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Yeah. And you had elevated cholesterol. What did your cholesterol do over a certain period of time?
Ruth Morley:
I didn't keep strict records. I wish I'd kept a journal. But my cholesterol has been up to the 290s and it has come down 100 points within ... I would say it came down from about 270 to 220. Now I do have the family history. I've been tested for it. My doctor is plant-based and she's trained with your father. I cannot get it below 190, even though I eat 100% in accordance with your father's guidance.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, and a lot of times it's also important to recognize and know what are all fractions. So you may have a HDL that's 70, 80 or 90, and that almost makes it impossible for you to get down much lower because of that high HDL. Anyway, not to worry about that. And my father always likes to say, the most important thing, Ruth, is what is passing through your lips.
Ruth Morley:
Absolutely. And I listen to him. Yep. Absolutely. And I tried statin a little bit and I just didn't feel right with it. And I thought, I am putting my money, I am betting on Esselstyn. My lifestyle, I do yoga, I meditate, I spend so much time in nature. I'm good. And if I die at 80, 10 years from now, it's been good, but it's not going to happen.
Rip Esselstyn:
So you are an adventure seeker. You love adventures. Between the ages of 45 ... Or starting at age 45, I think you've done like 46 marathons, six ultra marathons. What is it in you that has such a love for adventures and now this ultra hiking?
Ruth Morley:
Yeah. I don't know. I just want to know what's around the next corner. And my best friend who's six years older than me is exactly the same way on her bike. We want to know what's around the corner. It's a wonderful way to explore the world. I like challenging myself, but I try to find my limits. Especially as I get older. I've had osteopenia for years, and then it edged into osteoporosis when I was on crutches. Actually two times on crutches. And now I edge back a little bit. And the hips didn't appreciate the running. I don't do it anymore, but it was a good go when it lasted.
I just want to point out one little quick thing. With the osteoporosis, I don't make excuses, I make plans. And so I found online a Dr. Loren Fishman, who promotes a way of doing yoga for osteoporosis. And he has a book and he has a website and YouTube. And I found on YouTube how to do 12 different poses of yoga, holding them for 30 seconds each at least four times a week. And I think when I have my DEXA scan in a couple of months, it's going to show reversal of osteoporosis. I'm sure.
Rip Esselstyn:
And one of the best things, Ruth, and for all the listeners out there that you can do to help strengthen the bones and get those osteoblasts humming is to do weightbearing exercise, which is what you're doing.
Ruth Morley:
Yeah. With the backpacks.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. And typically, how much does your backpack weigh?
Ruth Morley:
Oh, that is always a backpacker's question. We ask each other. It's like, show me yours and I'll show you mine. They talk about the base weight of a pack, and that means the non-consumable things. Your sleeping system, your cooking system, your backpack itself, the things that will be with you the whole trip. Mine weighs in at about 15 to 16 pounds, which is lightweight compared to past years. It's not ultralight light like some people, but I'm not an 18-year-old male who's willing to sleep on a eighth inch thick foam pad on the ground. And then once I add my food, which is a whole nother subject, and water, it can be 25 pounds. And this shoulder doesn't always appreciate it but actually this last stint for a month on a trail, it actually made it stronger. So now about 25 pounds if you're carrying water.
Rip Esselstyn:
I cannot wait to get into the food and how you make this work on the trail, but not yet.
Ruth Morley:
No.
Rip Esselstyn:
I still want to know ... At one point you went from doing the marathons to triathlons and then biking. Is that right?
Ruth Morley:
Yeah. The biking has been a bit of a constant because that's what my best friend likes to do. Yeah, I went from the marathons with some biking in there, and then my husband said he wanted to try triathlons. I thought, well, I'm not sitting at home. And so we did them. And after our first sprint, which is a short triathlon, he said, "Well, that was an ..." Here's the difference between us. One of the many. Good differences though. He said, "Well, that was a nice morning's exercise." I said, "I'm going to do an Iron Man." And that personifies our difference. I take it to extreme. And I did sign up for an Iron Man eventually, but got injured, but I got up to a half Iron Man. But the cycling, I had the good fortune ... Actually, my best friend and I decided we wanted to bike across America. She'd already done it across the north with a group, but we wanted to do it just the two of us.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow.
Ruth Morley:
So in 2010, we rode from San Diego to St. Augustine, Florida. I think it's about 3,000 miles. In six weeks. Averaged 80 miles a day. She made me do that much. I wouldn't have done that much.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow.
Ruth Morley:
It was great.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow. Do you recommend it?
Ruth Morley:
Oh, yes. If you want variety, oh my God. And the panhandle of Florida, they call the other Florida. It's lush, green jungle stuff. And compare that to southwest Texas and Arizona. It was a great trip. I have to admit, we did not camp. I suggested it to her. She considered it for about two seconds. And so we got out the credit cards and stayed in beds every night.
Rip Esselstyn:
And so I think that I read that you stay in cheap hotels, motels, and there's a reason for that. What is that?
Ruth Morley:
When backpacking?
Rip Esselstyn:
Yes. Yes. When backpacking.
Ruth Morley:
Because that's where you'll find the other hikers. I camp. I tend to hike for four or five days and then take what's called a zero day. This is if I'm doing weeks or months. My longest stint on a long trail has been 250 miles. That was my shortest. My longest was 900 miles on the Appalachian Trail. And so I know I need R&R time, and I need time. I like to do my blog. And so if I stay in the nice hotels, which adds up and gets expensive, I'm not going to see other hikers. And I hike alone. I prefer hiking alone so that I can really feel the nature and not get caught up in the exercise. Because as you can tell, I can talk. But occasionally I do give in and stay at an embassy suite and enjoy all the clean whiteness.
Rip Esselstyn:
So when did you discover that you enjoyed doing this by yourself as opposed to with a comrade? Like the bike ride. You did the bike ride with your best friend.
Ruth Morley:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
And that's a different sport and it's a different feel, but yeah.
Ruth Morley:
And I feel like with that, one day, we had 120 miles we had to do. The Appalachian Trail is well populated with other hikers, and you're never terribly far from a town. Not terribly as you would be on the Continental Divide Trail. So I think with bikes, things can go wrong. Our husbands were with us the first two weeks when we were in the desert in the west, in case something happened. We could change a tire and that was it. But for hiking alone ... We had the good fortune to live overseas for 18 years and six of those years were in the Alps. I mean, can it be any better? No. For me. And I remember one day hiking with a close friend there, and she was very personable and she had a thousand more friends than I did there. And she said, "Oh, this was so much fun. We must bring the group here to do this hike again." And I thought, "I must come back alone." I love the groups, but I must come back alone so I can hear the birds enjoy the streams and just soak it up.
Rip Esselstyn:
Is that where you developed your love for hiking was in the French Alps?
Ruth Morley:
That's where it really grew. As a child I lived in Creed, Colorado, a little mining town, and I just loved it. And in the future, I'll be hiking right through it. And I think that set the stage and played in the hills with my friends. But yeah, the Alps, it was right there.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow.
Ruth Morley:
Yeah. And so I hiked them.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Yeah. Do you currently live in Ohio? Where do you live?
Ruth Morley:
Cincinnati. Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Cincinnati. And so ergo, you hiking the Buckeye Trail.
Ruth Morley:
Right. I walked nine miles from my home down to Eden Park on the Ohio River where there's a big sign that says Southern Terminus of the Buckeye Trail. And I started, and I've done half of it now. It's a long-term project, four or five years. Whenever I see there's a good stretch of weather. Because I was rained on so much on the Appalachian Trail during the four summers I did that, I thought, I don't want to ever be rained on on the Buckeye Trail. And for that one, I self-support myself with a bike, so I really need good weather. I prefer not to bike.
So I put my bike on, rack the back of our pickup truck, and I will drive to wherever. Okay, here's the stretch I'm going to do for a week. And I will drive ahead to where the finish point is for my first day, and I will lock my bike up to a fence or hide it in the woods and lock it to a tree. Or I've asked farmers if I can leave it locked to their trailer in their farm yard. And then I drive back to my start, my trail head. I walk on the trail. It might be a country road. It might be a trail. It might be a rail trail. And I walk to my bike about 12 to 14 miles that day. And then I get on my bike and ride back to the truck, put it on the rack, drive 30 miles to get to the next destination for the next day, and then find a place to camp. Or occasionally, every third day I stay in a hotel so that I can recharge my bike because it's an e-bike. I bought an electric assist bike because sometimes I'm on country roads and I want to go fast. Less chance of being hit. So that's a really fun, completely different way to do it. Totally unlike the Appalachian Trail or the Florida Trail, which I'm in the process of doing now.
Rip Esselstyn:
Boy, you figure it out.
Ruth Morley:
It's fun. I think the physical and the mental challenges keep you young or make you feel older, depending on the day. If it's raining you feel older.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, I like what you said earlier too, where you said you're not about excuses, you're about planning. And that's exemplified in it sounds like everything that you do. What is the Buckeye Trail like? Is it shaded? Is it open? Is it hilly? I have no idea.
Ruth Morley:
Yeah. The Buckeye Trail is 1,400 miles going around ... Following the perimeter of the state more or less. And you can go any direction and it's a circle and you can start anywhere. I think that they've applied to be a national scenic trail. I'm not sure. What I have seen of it, I've done all the west side and the north and bits of the east with a group, but all the rest was solo. Going up the west side, it was a lot of rail trails and old canal paths following all the canals that connect Lake Erie to the Ohio River. Going across the north, it's a lot of road walking of almost all just quiet country roads though. And somebody said to me once, trails are wonderful because you get the nature and road walks are wonderful because you get the culture and that is exactly right. You see the farms. I love it. It gets old at some point. By the afternoon on the Buckeye Trail only, I might dip into my headphones and listen to a book on tape or listen to PLANTSTRONG Podcast. I have several podcasts I follow regularly. But mostly I just get lost in my thoughts and look at the farmhouse and think if that was my house, I'd put shutters on it.
And if there's people in their yard, I speak to them and I'm invited to look at their garden. When I was hiking in Europe, when we lived in France, my first long distance trail was a 1,500 mile trail called the GR5. Grand Randonnee name means big hike, big walk. And there's all sorts of GRs all over Europe. And it ran through five countries from the North Sea through the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, a bit of Switzerland and France all the way down to the Mediterranean, to Tunis. And I remember walking in Belgium once I saw a man at the end of a darling little shady lane working on his house. And I thought, I want to talk to him. So I dumped out my water and I walked up and I said in French, "Excuse me, would you mind refilling my water bottle?" Because I wanted to talk to him.
But back to Buckeye Trail. So it is culture. The east is southeast of Ohio, sometimes called little Appalachia. Because it's hilly. I've done some training down there in the Shawnee State Forest. And that's where I took two friends to train for when they were going to join me in the Appalachian Trail. And the trail was such good training for the Appalachian Trail, so rugged that they said, "You're not Ruth, you're ruthless." And that's my trail name. Ruthless now. I've done some of it down to Akron. I just love the variety. The variety of Ohio. And we moved here with babies many years ago to Cincinnati. And I never really felt ownership of Ohio as a home. And this makes me feel much more so after all 42 years. Because I've seen so many small towns I never knew existed and many people don't.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. So how many different trails would you say that you've been on since you've started hiking? Is it 20, 30, 40? Do you have any idea?
Ruth Morley:
Well, you can talk about a day hike, and so I do plenty around here. Germantown Park, Miami Whitewater Park, local state parks. For long distance things, the first real one I did was the GR5 in Europe. Since that time ... Also, before we lived in France, we lived in two other countries and Japan was our first in 10 years. And while we lived there, we really explored all of Asia. And so we hiked in the Himalayas for five days with guides, porters who carry everything for you. Even baked a cake on the trail. But we got to see Everest in the distance. We trekked in Thailand. Bill and I, since we've moved back to the US, we have hiked for a week in Patagonia with Sierra Club.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow.
Ruth Morley:
We climbed Kilimanjaro. Woo. That was good. We took the long route with Sierra Club again, which I highly recommend. Led by one of their volunteers, but they hire local guides. Very personable and small groups. We took the long route, which was about six days up. Five to six days. Because then you acclimate very easily to the altitude difference and you see all the climatic zones longer. It was wonderful.
And then the Appalachian Trail. I tried to do it in two sections. People who do a trail, no matter what it's length in one go are called through hikers. And almost everybody who wants to do the Appalachian Trail dreams of doing a through hike, which can be four to seven months long. Well, I knew I couldn't do that, so I tried to do it in two goes, but it ended up four times because of injuries. Tendonitis and stress fractures twice. Twice I got them. But I finished it. My husband promised he would help me finish it, and he came with me. Sorry, that meant a lot to me. No one can support me better than he does.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Well it's so fantastic that he encourages it and he allows you to pursue this passion with such ruthlessness.
Ruth Morley:
Exactly. Well and allows ... We would use that word, but in the same way I allow him. He is an amazing volunteer with youth throughout the community. Our local community in Cincinnati and the inner city. He does so much with habitat. He does so much. And he's an active triathlete. I have to sing his praises. He's ranked as number one in his age group in Ohio, so he's no slouch. And he eats plant-based as well. And he is no slouch. So yes, he is my main support. I'm just trying to think. The Buckeye Trail's a work in progress and then we didn't get to Florida Trail. Just a week ago I came home limping. A little knee issue, but it's getting better every day.
The Florida Trail's 1,100 miles, if you do it from one end to the other. And it starts down in Big Cyprus National Preserve down in the Everglades. And that is dynamite. Crazy different. Walking in the swamps. For me it took four days. I'm slower and I take way too many pictures. And then it goes all the way up the eastern side of the state, but not on the coast. And turns left and goes across the panhandle and finishes near Pensacola. So my plan, I am not a through hiker to get back to the point. I am what's called a lasher. Now this is R rated. No, PG rated. It's long ass section hiker.
Rip Esselstyn:
Mm-hmm. I got it.
Ruth Morley:
It's an acronym for that. Meaning I do long sections. So I did 350 miles according to plan this year and next year I'll do my second third, and the third year I'll do my third third. And then just because it exists, I will go back on a fourth year and do something that's not part of the official Florida Trail. I think it's called the Florida Keys Heritage Trail. Go from Big Cyprus in the Everglades and go south and walk 200 miles to Key West because it must be done.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow. Have you ever done any of the Pacific Crest or John Muir or any of those trails?
Ruth Morley:
No. They're calling my name. John Muir, especially. Arizona Trail's calling my name because if you start in the south, right at the Mexican border and go up to Utah border, the last bit is going down and up, rim to rim on the Grand Canyon. So we'll see what the body allows. I'm 70 and I hope to have 20 more good years. And I feel like I can, as long as I pace myself just as I did in marathons.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Pace yourself.
Ruth Morley:
Pace myself. In years, daily, monthly, annually.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. And make sure you're taking those rest days and rest weeks.
Ruth Morley:
Yes.
Rip Esselstyn:
You got to let the body recover for sure.
Ruth Morley:
For sure. Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Ruth, I'm fascinated to understand how do you make this work with the food?
Ruth Morley:
I'm glad you asked.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. I know that you're not about excuses, you're about planning. So how do you achieve this?
Ruth Morley:
All right. It was a learning curve. I have a dehydrator. An Excalibur nine tray. It's a black box and it has nine trays that slide out, down in my basement and it's humming most of the time. And I found a website called The Backpacking Chef, and he has two fantastic recipes for adventure cookbooks. And I learned the process how to do it. But even though his isn't plant based, he does have a few plant-based recipes. I dehydrate all my snacks, all my meals. It takes months, but you don't have to have special recipes. You can use your own and learn how to do it. You either dehydrate the individual things like the peas, the corn, the potatoes, the sweet potatoes, and then put them together. But then you need a sauce or flavoring. So often I will just make sweet potato chili. Sounders chili. I can't remember if it's yours or Jane's.
My favorite cookbooks are PLANTSTRONG. Your red one. And I think ... Yeah, they're up there. And the Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease Cookbook. Those are my two. And one is Chef AJs. And I just cook these things and I spread them out on the tray and they take 10 hours or so. I'll go down midway and turn the trays so even. I crumble it up, I put it in a quart size Ziploc or a pint size, and they keep forever. When COVID came, we had extra hiking food, and I said, "We are covered if this thing hangs around five years. We've got enough food practically." And so I do oats. For my breakfast I put in just rolled oats, uncooked. I love oriental sweet potatoes or any of the sweet potatoes. I cook the vegetables and then I cut them up and I cook them, and then I dehydrate them individually for that.
I have riced cauliflower because according to your father's plan, we should be having greens or cruciferous vegetables or beets four to six times a day. And I can pull off four times a day on the trail. Six times is pretty hard. So I add sweet potatoes, riced cauliflower and zucchini to my oats. Bananas. The two tablespoons of flaxseed that he recommends. Powdered vanilla, which I learned about from Chef AJ that is dynamite. And cinnamon and little packets of in individual portions of balsamic vinegar that I add to it. He recommends the vinegar because that-
Rip Esselstyn:
Acetic acid.
Ruth Morley:
You can explain it better than I can. It activates the nitrates and it helps expand the blood vessels. And so that's my breakfast. It's a lumberjack size. Really, my bag weighs heavier than many people's because of all the food. One day's food weighs a pound and a half, but that is common. But I have to tell you, backpackers-
Rip Esselstyn:
A pound and a half. A pound and a half sounds like nothing to me, but then again, that's dehydrated. So you add in the water. What would that be if it wasn't dehydrated? Probably three and a half, four?
Ruth Morley:
Water is so heavy. Three to four or five pounds. Oh, it'd be much more. Much more. I dehydrate mandarin oranges and fruit and make a fruit mix. Apples. All those things weigh so much. I was carrying on the Florida Trail towards the end ... A friend very kindly gave me four baked potatoes. A new friend. Called a trail angel. People who help other hikers on the trail. He heard me one day as he was giving me some water along the way, say how much I missed baked potatoes. The next day he tracked me down. It was the road walk, he could find me there. And he gave me four baked potatoes wrapped in foil. And so I was carrying those. I thought, wow, those are heavy. But if they were dehydrated, I wouldn't have noticed putting them in.
I also dehydrate my snacks. And one thing that I'm really proud of is I started with a basic, basic oatmeal cookie recipe from Chef AJ's book of just basically mashed ripe bananas and rolled oats and that's it. And if you want to add some vanilla powder and cinnamon, there you go. And then I thought, well, I could add zucchini. We make zucchini muffins and I could add carrots. Both of them shredded. And now I've tried it with beets and boy, those are red cookies.
Rip Esselstyn:
I bet.
Ruth Morley:
I don't eat nuts because of your father's guidance. So I add chopped cooked chickpeas, and those are my white chocolate in it. And they're miniature meals. And I dehydrate them and they're crispy like a thick cracker so that they will keep forever on the trail. And then I make a savory trail mix in which I have chickpeas, I have mushrooms, which I love, and I marinate them for a while in balsamic vinegar and pan fry them. And each one of these things is dehydrated individually. Red pepper strips, zucchini, beet cubes, anything, and rolled oats. I try to get calories in there because I burn 450 to 500 calories an hour.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow.
Ruth Morley:
You can't keep up with it. I'm hungry after my lumberjack breakfast. So I'm looking into that more. I'm going to put dehydrated quinoa in the future. I'm going to put a little more chickpea flour and things in my cookies just to get the calorie count up. But I love my food. I love my food. I eat like a queen. I have three meals a day. Big ones. And I have two snacks in the morning, two in the afternoon, if not three. And the way I prepare it ... A lot of people, when they have dehydrated food, as I did initially ... I used to eat paleo. I only finished my last quarter of the Appalachian Trail as a plant-based eater. I used to put it in a little pot and put it on my little MSR stove with the gas canister, but then you have a mess to clean up and I just didn't like it. So now I do cold soaking where for breakfast the night before I will put my oat mixture in my little plastic container with a lid and the water to cover it and more so. And in the morning it has soaked it up and it's ready to go.
And so after I eat my breakfast, I will prepare my lunch, put it in my backpack. When I stop for lunch, it's ready. At lunch, I prepare my dinner, put it with water, it's ready. Now you're carrying that water, but you can either carry it in your water bottle or carry it with your food. And so that's it in a nutshell, except I can't eat nuts.
Rip Esselstyn:
Now how many days worth of breakfast, lunches, and dinners are you typically carrying before you have to resupply again?
Ruth Morley:
That is a very, very good question. Nobody really asks me that. What's most comfortable is zero. My husband will mail it wherever I tell him. And I always have my itinerary planned and I know where I can send it to a hostel or a hotel or general delivery at a post office. I like best if I get it every three to four days. You also have to be able to fit it into your bear proof container. I tend to use now what's called an Ursack, and it's a big black bag that they have proven bears ... They have different levels of them. I have the one that's called The AllMitey and little critters, we call them mini bears, M-I-N-I, bears like raccoons and mice, can't get in it, nor can bears.
Now the bears will smash the heck out of the food, but I don't care. I'll just add water to it and eat it. I don't care. I like it all. And I can't really fit more than five days worth in there. And then what you do when you camp, you tie it tightly to a tree and a bear may smash at it but if you keep your campsite clean and you don't leave food around, and if you camp in a place where other people don't normally camp, then the bears don't bother you. They don't find you.
Rip Esselstyn:
Do you have a particular make, model of tent that you use and sleeping bag and all that jazz?
Ruth Morley:
All good questions. I love talking about this. The great thing about being with you Rip, is I'm talking about two of my very favorite subjects, hiking and food.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh yeah.
Ruth Morley:
Yeah. This was on the Florida Trail. I just finished my first month on it. It was the maiden journey of my Durston Mid-X one person, I think it's called. Something like that. X-mid. And that's held up with hiking poles and it weighs just two pounds and it's wonderful. It has a net inner tent, and then it's covered by a rainproof tent and it goes up very quickly. Before that, I used a tarp that I had sewn from a kit that I also loved. Ray Jardine was one of the premier climbers, and then wilderness instructors back maybe we'll say in the '70s, '80s, '90s. And he is also a ... What? Aeronautical engineer. And so he is a great designer and he designed these tarps.
And inside it is a bivvy, a low tent, that slides in that is just net tenting so the bugs won't get you. And super lightweight. Again, two pounds like the Durston tent. And I made that and used it for the whole Appalachian Trail and other places. In my plans this August, I hope to be doing Colorado Trail and I'm going to be above Timberline often. To hold a tarp up with hiking poles is tough. And so I went this direction, but I will use my tarp again sometime. And my backpack is a ULA Circuit, which is supremely comfortable. And it's not the lightest of light, which is the holy grail right now among hikers who are into speed hiking. But it's about a little over two pounds and that's very good. My first one probably weighed five pounds in Europe.
Rip Esselstyn:
What about sleeping bag?
Ruth Morley:
Sleeping bag is called UGQ, Underground Quilt. I think because they make quilts for hammock sleepers too. And boy, I got it to where it's comfort level is 10 degrees because I sleep like an icicle and I'm willing to carry a little added weight to be warm. And I was sweating in it in Florida, but I don't care. And a quilt is cool. It's very popular these days instead of a bag. You don't have the zipper, you're not as constricted and you can open it. Like In Florida, I was hot, so I opened it up all the way and I just have a blanket laying over me and I can stick my feet out. And I went along very fine.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wait, wait. It was a quilt, like a duvet that you just put on top of yourself?
Ruth Morley:
Yeah. Except it does have snaps and I can zip up the bottom 18 inches to make a pocket for my feet. And if it's cold, it has snaps that you can do every now and then and draw strings on this UGQ Bandit Quilt.
Rip Esselstyn:
Nice.
Ruth Morley:
It keeps you warm. You can make it almost like a sleeping bag, but it can also be like a duvet.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay. What about hammock? Do you hammock or no? Have you tried it?
Ruth Morley:
No. I just do my tent. It's too complicated and there's more materials to carry. A under quilt, an upper quilt. But boy, they say once you sleep in one, you'll never go to the ground again.
Rip Esselstyn:
How about that?
Ruth Morley:
So I don't want to be tempted by that.
Rip Esselstyn:
What about hiking boots or shoes, sneakers? What do you like to hike in?
Ruth Morley:
I tried trail running shoes, which are very popular if you get a really good grippy Vibram sole into it on the Appalachian Trail. But they wore down quickly and I got tendonitis, so I shied away from that. On the rest of the AT I wore Lowa Renegade hiking boots, which I love, but they are heavy. And being waterproof, they stay heavy. And so now I'm using Trail Runners and they have the Vibram souls that just gripped anything. And they're by a company called Topo or Topos. Tom Post, I think started it. It's online. You can buy some of them through some REIs. And I am sold on those. Also, I use Altra Lone Peaks. It's great because in the first four days and who knows when else on the Florida Trail, you're in water. And I can't do that with boots. On the Appalachian Trail, I would slip into my water shoes. I'm not going to do that over and over and over every day on the Florida Trail. So I'm sold on these even for mountainous. But when we went to Patagonia and Kilimanjaro, they said, boots. Boots. And I trust boots. They're good.
Rip Esselstyn:
So I was looking at your blog on your website. I love It. It makes me feel like I'm there alongside you. But I noticed ... Because one of the things, as I get older, I really want to keep my skin out of the sun as much as possible. I just don't want to be a weathered prune when I'm in my 70s and 80s. And I noticed-
Ruth Morley:
Or have surgery for melanoma.
Rip Esselstyn:
But I noticed you wore this really cool hat that had this thing that came around this and buckled up here. I want one of those. Can you tell me what brand that is and what it's about?
Ruth Morley:
Oh yeah. Outdoor Research.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay.
Ruth Morley:
Outdoor Research. I love their hats. Normally I wear one that's just khaki colored but it was hunting season for a year.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yes.
Ruth Morley:
So I had a rectangle on my back, bright, bright orange. This hat wasn't as bright as I'd hoped for. But yeah, it made all the difference in the world. And my shirt is SPF 50. I can't remember who it's made by. I've worn it forever. And it's treated permanently for insects too.
Rip Esselstyn:
Do you like to wear shorts or long pants?
Ruth Morley:
Long pants. I like to protect myself from ticks. When I did the AT up in the northeast, that's where ticks fly like salmons go upstream. That's where ticks like to go. No. But on the Florida Trail, I tend to go with shorts because I'm in water more than grass and I don't want to get my pants wet. Because if it's cold at night ... And it can get chilly there. I have special clothes just for sleeping. They're wool base layers and wool ... I'm sorry, I'm a bad vegan. But I do it. And so if it's really cold, I'll have my base layer on my legs and my upper body and I'll put my hiking clothes over it just for another layer so I don't want them wet.
Rip Esselstyn:
Tell me about ... I've done a fair amount of hiking in my life as well. I love that feeling after a long day of hiking. You eat and then you get settled down and you fall asleep between 8:00 and 8:30.
Ruth Morley:
Yeah. Hiker's midnight. Exactly.
Rip Esselstyn:
Hiker's midnight. I love that. Do you sleep? Do you get to sleep fast and then are you waking up at all? And then what time do you wake up when you decide to wake up and eat and get going?
Ruth Morley:
Oh, these are just so fun to answer. So fun. It depends on the trail. In an ideal world, I would have lots more sunlight than I did on the Florida Trail where the sun wasn't up until 7:15 and it went down before six. I would start ... Honestly, I would love to wake up and meditate, which I do at home for 20 to 30 minutes every day. But the trail's calling and if there's other hikers there leaving and you're going, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, I got to get out there. Okay, meditate, I'm done." And then I would follow it if I could with yoga, which I do sometimes. I love my yoga four, five times a week. But what I evolved to this time, since I had limited light hours ... And the insects will kill you. The mosquitoes go for you right at sunrise and sunset. Boy, you better be in your tent then.
So I would honestly set my alarm for five because it takes me a long time to break camp. And I would eat my oatmeal as I'm packing up my tent. I was hiking towards the end by seven when the sun was coming up. And that's a magical hour. It's also a magical hour to do yoga at your campsite but we make our choices. And then I would try to get into camp by 4:30 or five. And the key to ... Towards the end, I was hiking ... Well, I started with just seven to eight mile days because I was walking in the swamp and I couldn't do more than that. And there were designated high dry places to camp. Towards the end It was a lot of road walking in Florida. Because the Florida Trail's been called a series of beautiful pearls held together by brown twine. You can't have Disneyland every day or beaches every day. In any state, there's less than scenic areas and they're tying it all together as best they can. So I knew I had a lot of miles to cover. I got up to 20 miles a day a couple of times. And you don't go faster. You just give yourself more time to do it. And that way hopefully you can avoid injuries.
Rip Esselstyn:
Who's the most interesting person you've run into during your hikes?
Ruth Morley:
Oh gosh. Honestly, it was on this hike. I'm going to tear up because this guy was so sweet. I'm passing a hiker and you seldom pass them on the Florida Trail. It's not like the AT. And he's a young man, maybe in his 30s and he's wearing a crucifix and he's got an old-fashioned ruck sack on his back. And we're sharing our stories. And he's a young father. When he was in church ... He was a devout Catholic. When he was in church, he had ... The hair on his arms went up. Rose. And he felt the strong presence of a being beside him. And he said, "I knew it was St. Joseph. And St. Joseph said to me, 'Your son is on his way to you and I will play a pivotal part in his life.'" And his son was not conceived yet, but 10 months later he was born.
And when they did the sonogram, they said, "We'll tell you what it is." He said, "I know it's a boy." And it was. 50/50 odds. So he was hiking just a few days the old-fashioned way and he had a 14th century Latin prayer book transcribed into English. And he was saying prayers. It was all devoted to his five-week-old son just for his life. He's healthy, he's fine. He was a pilgrim in honor of his son and his future. And he said that he was training to become a Jesuit of some level. I don't know. Married. I know he was married. And he was so dear. And as we parted, he held my hand and said a prayer for me for safety on the trail. And a real true pilgrim. So many people want to go do the Camino in Spain, and that's admirable, and I want to do that in my 80s. But this guy was a true pilgrim.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow. What's the hardest moment you've ever had on all your hikes that you can remember?
Ruth Morley:
It was my hardest and at the risk of blowing my own horn, it was my best.
Rip Esselstyn:
Isn't that funny how that's usually the way it is? Yeah.
Ruth Morley:
It is. It really, really is. I was hiking from the center ... It's called a flip-flop hike. And I did the AT as a flip-flop where you start in the center or wherever you wish and go to one end and come back to the center and go to the other. So I started in the center in 20 ... Let's see. I wrote it down 2017 at Harper's Ferry, West Virginia. And I did the southern half in two summers. Two big chunks, 500 miles, and then 600 miles. And then in 19 I came back and I was going to do all the north. I went to Harpers Ferry, I went north, I got 900 miles. I wanted to get a little over 1100. I hadn't gotten to 900 yet and I met a Swiss couple and she was hiking with him, but she was going to go home soon to babysit grandchildren in Switzerland. And so I met him after she had left. And he was just so desolate and so lonely, and he didn't want to have to go home because he'd done that before out of loneliness. And he had maybe a couple of hundred English words in him. But luckily my master's is in teaching English as a second language so I'm very comfortable with it. And I've lived overseas 18 years. So we fist bumped. We agreed to do the rest of the AT together and climb Katahdin together.
Rip Esselstyn:
What year was this?
Ruth Morley:
This was in '17. I hiked 2017, '18, '19.
Rip Esselstyn:
So you're hiking with this guy even though you like hiking alone?
Ruth Morley:
Yes.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay. And so is that-
Ruth Morley:
Because I needed him as much as he needed me. I was starting to get ... After 900 miles, it's getting old. This is why I'm a lasher, not a through hiker. I prefer to keep it new and go home when it gets tiring. Not physically tiring, but you're no longer enjoying it. And so I did hike with him and he would've gone for longer miles, longer days, but he did not. He adjusted for me. But gradually my hips hurt so much. I didn't know what was wrong. And little did I know it was the stress fractures. So finally one day I just sat in the middle of the trail and cried my eyes out and I said, "I cannot go on. I cannot go on." And he couldn't console me, but he could say my name, "Ruth Morley. Ruth Morley." And so we stagger out the four miles and get a ride to the hostel we were going to stay at.
But I kept thinking, I promised him. So I said ... His trail name was Freeman. I said, "Freeman, I'm going to Katahdin with you, but you are hiking and I'm going to rent a SUV and I'm going to support you the remaining 220 miles and you will get there." And so I did that. And it was the best thing. It was my best experience of the AT. He did not want to camp anymore. He was tired of all that. So we got out the credit cards and I booked it. I could book it. I had fluent English. I'd get hostels, I'd get hotels. His wife was happy he had me. My husband was happy I had him. It was great. It was great. And then once he got to Katahdin, I said, "I've been sitting in this car for three weeks. I can climb Katahdin with you." The final mountain.
And we climbed it. And I came down, I kissed the ground, that's in my blog, and went home to crutches. I did have stress fractures still, but I made it. I did it. And that meant more to me than you'll ever know.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow.
Ruth Morley:
Yep. And equal billing is my husband saying if ... After that stress fracture, I said, "I'm not going back." He said, "You only have one 10th of the Appalachian Trail left." I said, "No, I'm not going back." And he swallowed deeply and he said, "I will do the 100 mile wilderness, the last part, which is still very difficult, and Katahdin with you, if you will go back." Within two weeks, I'm making my itinerary. And when I closed that gap and I got to the base of Katahdin, I'd now done every foot of the AT. I told him, I said, "I may hike solo, but I didn't do this alone." Because he mails me all my food.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Team effort. Team effort.
Ruth Morley:
Oh yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow. Thank you for sharing that story. That's really beautiful. Ruth, what is next for you? When you come back on the podcast in a year, what will we hopefully hear from you as far as a hike that you're wanting to do?
Ruth Morley:
Oh yeah. Well, I will have done the second third of the Florida Trail, which goes through Ocala, I think it's state or national park, I'm not sure, that everybody says is absolutely beautiful. I'm so excited to see more of Florida. It's magnificent. And in August, late July, I'm going to start the Colorado Trail, which is 480 miles and it starts in Denver and it goes southwest all through seven ranges of the Rockies. I mean, there's minor ranges, San De Christo and others like that. And it goes southwest to Durango, which is down by the four corners. And I hope to be able to do all 480. I'm going to pace myself. I've got altitude. I'll be up at 13,000 feet for days and days. And if I stop halfway at a town called Salida and then come back, I'm a lasher.
That's what I do. I will let my body decide. They say never stop on a bad day, like on a rainy day. And you stop if you're hurting. I respect my body too much to ... People continue on broken bones. No. I don't want pain to be part of my memory of this. That's why I got off three days early this time, because my knee was saying, you're done now. And I said, okay. So that's what it'll be. And after that, I don't know. I mean, Buckeye Trail. Those are pretty good plans.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh yeah, absolutely. Any interest in ever setting foot on the Appalachian Trail again?
Ruth Morley:
Well, now that you mention it, I have something that's tickling around in the back of my head, but I don't know if I'll do it. There's something called the Eastern Continental Trail, which goes from Key West all the way up to Quebec. I'm tempted since I plan on walking to Key West to just fill in the gap between the Florida Trail in the north and Springer Mountain, the southern part of the Appalachian Trail. It involves about 750 miles. I'm just guessing. Those who know better probably know the right answer. But it would be hiking in Alabama, a lot of road walks, and then the Pinhoti Trail and the Benton MacKaye Trail, and that connects you to Springer Mountain. And then I would have to flip all the way up to Maine and go from the base of Katahdin to ... I want to just get to the Canadian border and be able to say to myself, I walked from the Canadian border to Key West. But I don't know. I don't if it's worth 200 miles of walking.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Ruth, what advice would you give to somebody that's out there, they're sitting at home, they're hearing about you and all your adventures, and how would you inspire them to get off the chair, get off the sofa and do something that seems scary?
Ruth Morley:
That's one of the many reasons I like a blog. I get questions like that and I love ... Just as you say you are ambassadors for this way of life, that's what I want to be. I want to really help people eat better and move more like Dean Ornish says. I mean, mine's extreme and I didn't plan on extreme. Just these desires burn in me and it all builds on itself. But if you live in a area with parks, make it your goal to walk every trail in every park. Now again, that's extreme. Make it your goal to find all the parks in your city or town. Get outside. And when I've had my stress fractures twice and on crutches, I couldn't even leave the house. And I finally found a great counselor and I took some, at my request, antidepressants for a while, and I've been off now for quite a while. Being outside is some of the best medicine you can have. Oh my God. I'm in love with-
Rip Esselstyn:
Best therapy ever.
Ruth Morley:
It is the best. Oh. Oh. Look. I'm going to show you a sign. We went to something called the Sign Museum here in Cincinnati today with family. Look at this.
Rip Esselstyn:
Hiking is cheaper than therapy. Perfect.
Ruth Morley:
There we go. Yes. It is so good. Just move. And there's a great quote. Let me think. I love quotes. They always inspire me. It's just something about ... Very short. Mood follows action. Mood follows action. You just don't make excuses. Make plans.
Rip Esselstyn:
I love it. Ruth, our time has come to a close, but I want to say thank you so much for this therapy session. I know you've inspired me and I'm sure you've inspired just about everybody that's heard your story. You are just so passionate and you are living, I think, the life that many of us, in many ways wish that we could, but for whatever reason we're not. And I think that you are a testament to what's stopping you? Get out there, start, and there's no telling what kind of hurdles you overcome. And you're doing it all PLANTSTRONG. I love it. I love it.
Ruth Morley:
Somebody asked me on the trail, he said, "How much credit do you give the food that you eat?" The hikers were very interested. They were much more interested than the general population. Very interested in what I ate. And I told him everything. He said, "What credit do you give your food?" And I said, "95%." I have run all those marathons, biked across the US, all these things, despite how my body felt. My hips hurt since I was in my 40s. My hips always hurt. And now I do these things because of how my body feels.
Rip Esselstyn:
I love that quote. I actually wrote it down too because I wanted to say it at some point, but yeah. Yeah.
Ruth Morley:
And the number. I was almost happy to turn 70 in December. Almost. Because just to be an example. Age they say is only a number. Not necessarily. I mean, I admit I'm getting older and I say I feel 20 years younger than I am. But who knows? Changes happen. Changes happen. Happily, wrinkles don't hurt. That's good. That's good. But we try to be the best we can at the age we're at. And that's what I try to do for my own pleasure.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Ruth, this has been an absolute pleasure. Thank you. I also want to thank your partner, Bill, for all of his support allowing you to pursue ... I shouldn't say allowing, but giving you the gift of pursuing your passion. How remarkable. Not all of us have that luxury, so that's really ... What a gift.
Ruth Morley:
Oh, it's the truth. It's the truth. I'm still lucky. 50 years together.
Rip Esselstyn:
So Ruth, do me a favor, keep it PLANTSTRONG.
Ruth Morley:
Yes, sir. Thank you so much, Rip.
Rip Esselstyn:
It's been great.
Ruth Morley:
Thank you.
Rip Esselstyn:
Ruth is always open to answering questions and I can't wait to have her back on the PLANTSTRONG podcast to hear about her next set of adventures. She does have a blog, and I'll be sure to link that up in the show notes for today. And until then, make plans, ditch the excuses, and always keep it PLANTSTRONG.
Thank you for listening to the PLANTSTRONG podcast. You can support the show by taking a quick minute to follow us wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Leaving us a positive review and sharing the show with your network is another great way to help us reach as many people as possible with the exciting news about plants. Thank you in advance for your support. It means everything. The PLANTSTRONG podcast team includes Carrie Barrett, Laurie Kortowich, Ami Mackey, Patrick Gavin, and Wade Clark. This season is dedicated to all of those courageous truth seekers who weren't afraid to look through the lens with clear vision and hold firm to a higher truth. Most notably, my parents, Dr. Caldwell B. Esselstyn Jr. And Anne Crile Esselstyn. Thanks for listening.
