#91: The Plant-Based Athlete with Robert Cheeke and Matt Frazier
Robert Cheeke (Left) and Matt Frazier (Right) - Authors of The Plant-Based Athlete
Plant-based nutrition is definitely having a moment and it's so rewarding to be a key part of the conversation. It's also rewarding to introduce two longtime plantstrong pals who,like those of us at PLANTSTRONG, have been walking the walk and talking the talk for decades.
Matt Frazier is founder and creator of “The No Meat Athlete” and he’s absolutely one of the global authorities on plant-based nutrition for endurance athletes.
Robert Cheeke is the founder and creator of Vegan BodyBuilding and Fitness and has often been referred to as “The Godfather of the Vegan Bodybuilding Movement.” For over 25 years now, he's been out there flexing those biceps and advocating for a vegan lifestyle.
At PLANTSTRONG, we're thrilled to see Matt (“Mr. Endurance”) and Robert (“Mr. Muscle”) cross-pollinate and get together to produce this groundbreaking new book, The Plant-Based Athlete: A Game Changing Approach to Peak Performance.It is poised to be the definitive guide for any athlete looking to optimize and enhance their athletic performance.
It doesn’t matter if you’re a professional athlete, a weekend warrior, or someone who is just starting to dip your toe into fitness and may harbor some fear or doubt that plant-based nutrition will provide you with everything you need to succeed.
Those fears will be put to rest with this book that is packed with recipes, insights, scientific research, and profiles of athletes who use plants to power their professional careers and daily lives.
Key Takeaways:
Macronutrient and Micronutrient Breakdowns - How much and, more importantly, what should I be eating before, during and after my training sessions?
Can I really get enough protein on a plant-based diet?
Why is plant protein superior to animal protein?
How does a plantstrong diet help with inflammation and recovery?
What are some examples of food combinations that will help sustain my performance? What foods do Robert and Matt eat?
How do I even know how many calories I need on a daily basis?
Who are some of the top-level athletes fueled by plants and what do they eat on a daily basis?
Even though our platform at PLANTSTRONG has primarily been about preventing and reversing chronic lifestyle disease like heart disease, high blood pressure, and diabetes, it’s so exciting to shed light on the fact that the same diet is also a performance enhancer to help athletes of all levels compete at their best.
The game is changing and it is PLANTSTRONG.
Episode and PLANTSTRONG Resources:
Order our New PlantStrong Dessert-Inspired Granolas! https://plantstrongfoods.com/
Black Mountain, NC PLANTSTRONG Retreat - September 25th-30th, 2021 - https://plantstrong.com/black-mountain/
PLANTSTRONG Meal Planner - https://mealplanner.plantstrong.com - use code: STARTFRESH for a 14-Day Free Trial. Yes, you have to enter a credit card - but you won’t be charged if you cancel before the trial ends and that’s a click of a button. Enjoy the test drive and get cooking!
About Robert Cheeke:
Robert Cheeke is the author of Shred It! and Vegan Bodybuilding & Fitness, a champion bodybuilder, and the founder and President of Vegan Bodybuilding & Fitness. He became vegan in 1995 while still in high school and has been an advocate of a plant-based lifestyle ever since. Robert and his wife live in Ft. Collins, Colorado.
About Matt Frazier:
Matt Frazier is a vegan ultramarathoner, author, and entrepreneur, best known as the founder of the No Meat Athlete movement and host of the No Meat Athlete Radio podcast. His book The No Meat Athlete Cookbook was named a Sports Illustrated Best Health and Wellness Book of 2017. Frazier’s first book was No Meat Athlete: Run on Plants and Discover Your Fittest, Fastest, Happiest Self. Matt lives in Charlotte, North Carolina with his wife and kids.
Full Transcript
Robert Cheeke:
I've referenced you a lot, Rip, over the years about avoiding the foods that have all this baggage with them. I mean, yes, meat is a source of protein, but it often comes with cholesterol, saturated fat. It's either class 1 carcinogen or class 2A carcinogen. These are things to stay away from because they have baggage. Why not go to a source that has far less baggage, that is more friendly to animals, more friendly to the planet, more beneficial to your gut flora and your own internal microbiome, and your ability to thrive. Why not pick that option? And you don't have to sacrifice anymore. We live in 2021. Plants are everywhere. They've always been everywhere, but now they're even more abundant in restaurants and fast food places, and all of this kind of stuff, that anyone in anywhere America can find a plant-based meal now.
Rip Esselstyn:
Season three of the PLANTSTRONG Podcast explores those Galileo moments, where you seek to understand the real truth around your health and dare to see the world through a different lens. This season, we honor those courageous seekers who are paving the way for you and me. So, grab your telescope, point it towards your future, and let's get PLANTSTRONG together.
Rip Esselstyn:
I want to welcome you to the PLANTSTRONG Podcast. I'm Rip Esselstyn, your host. And I got to say that, I think it's so cool that plant-based nutrition is front and center in the limelight right now, because of everything that it can do for us as a people, as a planet. And it just makes sense.
Rip Esselstyn:
And it's so much fun to be a part of the conversation today. I want to introduce you to two other gentlemen who are downright studs in this area, and I've known them for a combined total of close to 20 years. The first is Matt Frazier, he's founder and creator of the No Meat Athlete brand. And he's absolutely one of the global authorities on plant-based nutrition for endurance athletes. The second is Robert Cheeke. He's been referred to as the godfather of the vegan bodybuilding movement. And he's always out there flexing those biceps of his, and he's done his fair share of winning clean bodybuilding competitions around the globe.
Rip Esselstyn:
It is so cool to me to see, Matt, Mr. Endurance and Robert, Mr. Muscle, cross-pollinate their brands and produce this new book, The Plant-Based Athlete: A Game-Changing Approach to Peak Performance, because this book will, no doubt, be the definitive guide for any athlete looking to optimize and enhance their athletic performance. To me, it doesn't matter if you're a professional athlete, a weekend warrior, or someone who is just starting to dip your toe into fitness, and you may harbor some fear or doubt that a plant-based diet will provide you with everything that you need to succeed. We're going to put those fears to rest today, especially when you hear us talk about some of the biggest names in the athletic world who are at the top of their game and at the top of the sporting world.
Rip Esselstyn:
For example, this last weekend, Novak Djokovic won the French Open to claim his 19th Grand Tour victory. Pretty amazing.
Rip Esselstyn:
And yes, we're going to have the protein talk. It is the crazy myth that we'll just keep busting as long as it takes. But more importantly, we'll talk about why plant protein is actually superior. I want to make sure you heard that, superior to animal protein, and how plant-based protein aids in recovery and reduction of inflammation from those hard training days. Because the nemesis to us athletes is inflammation. So, if we can reduce that, that is a fantastic thing.
Rip Esselstyn:
But there's so much to unpack here today. And even though my platform here at PLANTSTRONG has primarily been about preventing and reversing chronic lifestyle diseases, it is so exciting to shed light on the fact that the same PLANTSTRONG diet is also a performance enhancer to help athletes at all levels compete at their best. And as you probably know, it has helped me thrive as a collegiate swimmer, a professional athlete, a firefighter, and a PLANTSTRONG father for a combined total of close to 33 years. So, it's time, let's just dive right into it with my powerful pals, Robert Cheeke and Matt Frazier.
Rip Esselstyn:
So, both of you, guys, have written previous books, Matt, No Meat Athlete, and Robert, Shredded and Vegan Bodybuilding, have come to Whole Foods Market, where I had a tenure as a healthy eating ambassador. And I invited both of you guys to come and speak to Whole Foods Global, and you guys did phenomenal jobs there. Everybody, loved you. So, it's amazing to me how far back we go and how far the movement has come over the last, really, Robert, you've been doing this since 2002, Robert?
Robert Cheeke:
Since 1995.
Rip Esselstyn:
1995. So, we're going to get into both of your stories here. So, my whole platform, the Engine 2 and the PLANTSTRONG platform has really been primarily about preventing and reversing chronic Western disease. But who would have thought that you could take almost the exact same diet and have it be the ideal diet for peak performance. And that's what you guys are showing in the Plant-Based Athlete.
Rip Esselstyn:
And I have firsthand experience with exactly what you guys have written about in your book, because I've been living and breathing this as, not only as a human being, but as a athlete for almost 33 years. So, you guys have taken the science, the interviews, the meal plans, all of these as spectacular quotes from all these athletes and you've combined it all into the Plant-Based Athlete.
Rip Esselstyn:
So, with that, let me just start. So, Matt, let's start with you. Tell me about your journey and why you're so revved up on plants?
Matt Frazier:
Sure. Yeah. I mean, first of all, thanks for having us, Rip. This is awesome. All the things you said, those are themes that have come up in the handful of interviews we've already done, talking about this book, just how much the movement has changed since Robert and I were getting started, him much before me. But yeah, it just feels like we all go way back at this and we've all seen how much it has just taken a grasp on the culture and people are raising this, which is awesome.
Matt Frazier:
So yeah, and of course, we should mention that you're in the book. You're one of those athletes who we interviewed because you so embody exactly what the Plant-Based Athlete is. So, we all owe you a big debt of gratitude for that and for your work.
Matt Frazier:
But anyway, my story is, in 12 years ago, it was 2009, I was just a marathon runner, just casual runner, not anything special, but I had been on this mission to qualify for the Boston Marathon. And I had taken 90 minutes off my marathon time. I needed to take 10 minutes more off to qualify for Boston, which is not an elite accomplishment, but like for someone who first runs a 4:50 marathon, they run a 3:10, is a significant achievement. So, I was close. I was 10 minutes shy of it.
Matt Frazier:
And finally, I decided to go vegetarian, not yet vegan. And this wasn't for performance reasons. I was just doing it because I didn't want to eat animals anymore. And couldn't find a lot of information about this. I think Engine 2 was actually was just getting popular at those times. But I couldn't find much on the internet.
Matt Frazier:
So, I decided I was going to start a blog and journal how this vegetarian marathon running works. I called it No Meat Athlete. And to my surprise, really, it worked exceedingly well. And six months after that, I qualified for Boston, took those final 10 minutes off. And then started meeting people like Robert, Brendan Brazier, and got inspired to do more, to be vegan. And that's when I got into ultra running and did some fifties and even a hundred miler.
Matt Frazier:
And in the past few years, I've gotten back into strength stuff like kettlebell training, as well as being just a sports dad. I have two kids who are really superstar athletes. So, I have a different perspective now, a broader perspective. I've done a lot of coaching of my own kids as to how they should be eating and how their mindset should be. So, that's where I am and having an entrepreneurial journey along the way, did it only an athlete thing, wrote some cookbooks, started a supplement company, and some things like that in the movement. So yeah, this has been a life-changing experience, these 12 years. And here we are.
Rip Esselstyn:
How many kids do you have?
Matt Frazier:
I have two kids. They are 11 and eight. And my son is actually a superstar soccer player. We actually moved to Charlotte recently from Asheville, North Carolina, so that he could play with the... There's a new pro team here, he's in their youth academy. So, it's amazing. He's my plant-based athlete. He's a superstar. And my daughter is not far behind, she's going to be somewhere like that too soon.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow. And they're all a hundred percent plant-based?
Matt Frazier:
A hundred percent. Yep. And I think it's a huge advantage to them. They really have incredible aim towards the recovery, all the stuff that I'm sure we'll talk about over the next few minutes.
Rip Esselstyn:
I just had two professional women's soccer players that play for the Orlando... and I'm spacing-
Matt Frazier:
Orlando City. Right? Is there Orlando Pride? Is that what it is?
Rip Esselstyn:
I think it might be the Orlando Pride. And it's amazing how many women on that team are going on PLANTSTRONG.
Matt Frazier:
I think Alex Morgan is on the team. Right?
Rip Esselstyn:
I don't know if Alex is, but she's definitely plant-based.
Matt Frazier:
Yep.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. And I want to talk about that. Roberto, up there, wearing the PLANTSTRONG shirt. So, tell us about your journey.
Robert Cheeke:
Yeah. Thanks, Rip. And you're actually right, that 2002 is when I started my brand Vegan Bodybuilding and Fitness, but I came to this plant-based lifestyle, vegan lifestyle in 1995. It was one of those things, I remember the date, it's well-documented, December 8th, 1995, my older sister organize an Animal Rights Week at our high school. I thought, "What the heck? Give it a try. Support my older sister. She's putting in all this work."
Robert Cheeke:
So, I attended this event, which had speakers and the auditorium videos of factory farming and animal testing, and literature and conversations with people about living a vegan lifestyle. And that week turned into something like 1300 weeks, more than a quarter century like Europe. And here I am. And I was organizing the Animal Rights Week, two years later when I was a senior in high school.
Robert Cheeke:
And all the while, Rip, and I think you know this about my story, I was a five sport athlete in 1995. I was a runner. I was a soccer player. I was a wrestler. I was a basketball player. And I did almost every single event in track and field, and won the Dan O'Brien award for my school, because I did everything except for basically, the pole vault and two other events. I mean, I did throw-in events, hurdles, long distance, sprinting, jumping, tripled to everything.
Rip Esselstyn:
But you know what? There's one event that I've seen you up close and personal, and you let me down. And that was the Vegan Hotdog Eating Contest here in Austin.
Robert Cheeke:
That is exactly right. That was a decade ago. It must've been 2010 or something. I rolled into Austin. You gave me the opportunity to speak at the Whole Foods Market World headquarters. You were taking notes there in the audience. I thought you were playing on your phone at first. You later revealed that you were taking notes.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh yeah.
Robert Cheeke:
And I entered. It was covered by the New York Times, a lot of media. And I got my butt kicked. And I took my shirt off. I was flexing. I was the silly.
Rip Esselstyn:
You were doing push-ups on the stage before you started eating them.
Robert Cheeke:
It was ridiculous. And I ate, I don't know, like six plant-based hotdogs in the allotted time, which was 10 minutes or so. It was pretty pathetic.
Rip Esselstyn:
It was.
Robert Cheeke:
Yeah, it was. But I put on a performance. I thought you were going to mention, Rip, the time that I got my butt kicked doing pushups onstage at Plant-Stock at the Esselstyn Family Farm. That's what I thought you were going to say when you say, "I saw you up close and personal." But what I love about that, Rip, it was so funny. You were hosting, you were on the microphone, hundreds of people in the audience, and you were actually critiquing the person's form, who was doing more reps than me. You're not even going the whole way. You were taking it so seriously. We thought that was funny. You were like, "He's not even doing full reps." And so, this person who beat me, you were saying, well, maybe he didn't really qualify. He didn't do all the qualifying depth to achieve this feat.
Robert Cheeke:
But anyway, those are all side notes, which also talked about our history, which also reminds me of one of my favorite photos, Rip, is me, you and Brendan Brazier from over 10 years ago in Austin, when I was on tour there. And you were hosting one of your first ever Engine 2 retreats, and Brendan was speaking. I was in town and you invited me. Because that photo represents something like 75 years of plant-based living between the three of us, maybe 80 years at this point, 85 years. And it's just an iconic photo. I toss it online for throwback Thursday.
Robert Cheeke:
But just to really finish, Rip, and I know we're having a great time going back down memory lane. I was one of these guys, I weighed 120 pounds when I became plant-based in 1995, had no business in the sport of bodybuilding. I went on to weigh as high as 220 pounds, as recently as a few weeks ago, and put on a hundred pounds with a plant-based diet, which really puts that protein question to rest, can you build muscle on a plant-based diet? Well, unequivocally, yes, you can. A resounding yes.
Robert Cheeke:
And so, I went on to become multiple time champion vegan bodybuilder. I even retired from that and got back into long distance running, and had great success in that during a period of time, about eight years ago when I was living in Austin. And I've been writing ever since. This is my fourth or fifth book, depending on how you qualify. One of them is an ebook only, but it's the best one. It's like you said, this is the resource.
Robert Cheeke:
The Plant-Based Athlete is your story, Rip. It's Rich Roll story. It's Scott Jack story. It's Fiona Oakes' story. It's Christine Vardaros' story, Vanessa Espinoza story. It's the stories of more than 50 plant-based athletes that are some of the best in the world that we interviewed, and were able to share with readers along with all the monumental evidence, the evidence-based science endorsed by Dr. Greger, of course, that espouses these benefits of a plant-based diet for athletes. Like, why do we have better recovery? Why do we have more energy? Why do we perform really well? We tackle that, pun intended, with David Carter and others in this book. And it's just an honor to have it in stores and to be sitting here talking to you about it.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. So, let's dive in to some of the, probably the burning questions that the PLANTSTRONG audience has, and the ones that are always brought to our attention as athletes or just being plant-based. And you guys do a really great job. It's in one of the early chapters, just breaking down the macronutrients and the micronutrients. So, what I'd love to do right now is, let's just go through some of these macros, so people can feel good that when you're a plant-based athlete, right? You're getting all the protein you need, all the fats you need, and all the good carbs you need.
Rip Esselstyn:
So, let's start. And as you guys phrase it in your book, the protein talk, we got to have the protein talk. So, where do you want to start?
Robert Cheeke:
Yeah. In a nutshell, Rip, and you know this to be true, if you consume adequate calories, based on your calorie needs, you're going to get the requisite protein that you need. Our bodies don't need that much. We're packaged and sold this idea that we need a whole lot of it, and that more is better, and that we're going to wither away if we don't get a lot of it. And we talk about the history of that.
Robert Cheeke:
We talk about the history going back decades and decades, and decades, even to the television and the impact television had, and TV dinners, and the rise of fast food, and the cultural acceptance of consuming large amounts of meat, and the equivalency to masculinity with that, the convenience of fast food and restaurant, and diners, the busy lifestyles.
Robert Cheeke:
And then you get into the seventies and eighties, and the Arnold Schwarzenegger, and Joe Wieder era of using this by-product of cheesemaking to use whey and casein as a powder supplement forms, to then turn into a multi-billion dollar industry, to get athletes of all types hooked on it, so that you feel like you're not going to reach your potential unless you do it.
Robert Cheeke:
And so, I mean, we give many, many more examples, including when you buy what you think is a protein bar, you're oftentimes buying an energy bar wrapped in protein bar's clothing, because we know the breakdown of protein and carbohydrates, and how many calories per gram. And if you look at a 12 gram protein bar with 25 grams of carbohydrates, you know that is significantly, that is a carbohydrate bar. And in fact, some cases you're buying a fat bar. You're buying a fat bar, not a protein bar.
Robert Cheeke:
And so, we just, we break that down for people. And to make it easy, we give you protein sources, plant-based protein sources. These are protein, the amino acids, the building blocks of protein are in every food. If you want to increase your protein intake, just increase your intake of some of those foods that have more protein in them, the legumes, certain grains, certainly leafy greens, nuts and seeds, and nut butters and seed butters, and things like that.
Robert Cheeke:
And protein is so easy to get. In fact, most people walking around and sitting on couches are consuming more protein than they need, yet while they're sitting there, seeing Muscle Milk on the TV, they realize even as non-athletes, they should probably go have some more protein, and go out and get protein popcorn, protein water, protein supplement, protein infused this or that...
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, and you got to have your protein shampoo, that's enriched with the protein.
Robert Cheeke:
Yeah. I mean, imagine the absorption, right? To the skin, the largest organ of the body. You can just take protein in that way while you shower, while you bath.
Rip Esselstyn:
Sure.
Robert Cheeke:
Yeah. It's getting a little bit out of control. And so, we dedicated an entire chapter to protein, and then we covered it even more in the supplement chapter. We covered it in the day in the life section.
Robert Cheeke:
And really, what I thought was really unique too, is that, Rip, you were one of the people in a certain chapter that we talked about not using protein supplementation. And what we found was really interesting, interviewing a number of these athletes, is that many of the world's top performers don't use them either, because they're Olympic athletes and we're afraid of failing drug tests with taking these supplements and what might be in them. And so, that was fascinating to hear that even though it was something that I was pretty aware of, to find out that some of the best athletes in the world don't rely on that either, but they come back to food, where it's the food, the food, it's always been the food, as our friend, Dr. Clapper says.
Rip Esselstyn:
Let Me ask, Matt, let me ask you this. So, I would say that, I don't know, I'm just going to make a guess here, that 75% of Americans are protein toxic, and they're getting their protein from the wrong source. There's all kinds of discussions going on about good carbs, bad carbs, good fats, bad fats, but it hasn't seemed to permeate yet into protein, good protein, bad protein, especially in relation to plant protein versus animal protein. And you guys have a whole section on why animal-based proteins does our body no good. Can you let us know what's wrong with that with animal protein?
Matt Frazier:
Sure. Yeah. I mean, so you're absolutely right. People are getting, I think, way too much protein. If you just look at the recommended amount for most people, it's something, I think 0.36 grams per pound, per day. So, if you're 150 pounds, then it's like little over 50 pounds. Athletes may be slightly more. Vegetarian protein and vegan sources of protein are digested slightly less efficiently. So, in that way, you could say that you should have a little bit more than that, but nothing like the pound or the grams of protein per day that most people get.
Matt Frazier:
But to specifically answer your question, I think for me, the big reason to avoid animal proteins is the link to high levels of IGF1, insulin-like growth factor 1, that hormone, which is just, it's meant to grow animals, it's meant to grow things. And it's great for humans when we're young and we're growing. That's good to have those things, and that's why it's in human milk. It's not just linked to growth of your body, it's linked also to growth of cancers. And that's one of the huge reasons for me to get off of the animal protein, not to mention, acidifying effects and things like that. But to me, that's the big one.
Matt Frazier:
And you see people who they go vegan, they start thinking that they need to supplement with all this protein and start taking these BCAAs. And one of the risks of that is that you might be undoing one of the great benefits of this plant-based diet, is that it gets you away from these proteins.
Matt Frazier:
Now, most plant proteins have been shown not to raise, even isolated soy protein, doesn't raise IGF1 levels, because it also comes with this certain thing that blocks that. But I think it's a mistake to think of it like, well, now that we're vegan, we need to replace all this protein that we're now missing, because in many ways that's one of the great benefits of this, is that you've gotten away from this mega mountain that you certainly don't need of protein.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Yep. Perfect. Robert, let me ask you this. So, you guys write about how there is the limiting amino acid in the vegan diet is lysine, right? So, what can we do about that?
Robert Cheeke:
Well, you can simply just go to the foods that have higher amounts of it. Those are listed in the book. I don't have them all memorized, Matt, might.
Matt Frazier:
Seitan and tempeh are two big ones.
Robert Cheeke:
And it's the same with any essential amino acids that might be slightly low in any given diet to simply consume the foods that have higher amounts of those like tryptophan, or whatever the case is, where you can add in some hemp seeds. Like I know, Rip, you're very deliberate. That's a word you use. And we interviewed you. You're very deliberate about what you consume, like for a breakfast, for example. There's reasons you put chia seeds and hemp seeds, and walnuts, and blueberries. And in fact, you even list all the benefits of getting the benefits in blueberries and the chlorophyll from leafy greens, and the nitrites, and nitrates, and nitric oxide benefits and open up blood vessels.
Robert Cheeke:
And I think, that's the key, Rip, it's being deliberate. So, whether it's lysine or any other essential nutrient, or amino acid, it's just understanding that a balanced diet, a wide variety, an array of nutrients is always going to best serve us.
Robert Cheeke:
And an example of that is that many people, if you survey, talk to people, have them record their food, they eat about a dozen things throughout the week. It's the same things. They the same two or three fruits, the same one or two grains, if you're standard American diet, the same one or two meets, the same one or two dairy products, whatever the case is. And it's the same things over and over, not a lot of diversity. And that wouldn't inherently be a problem, if these were really nutrient dense foods, these dozen things that we're eating.
Robert Cheeke:
But if you think about it, for many people that might be toast, which is bread, that's basically set on fire and turned into ash, and we need a firefighter like Rip to come handle that. So, maybe you have toast with some butter, or a super calorie dense spread. Maybe you have some eggs or sausage, or something for breakfast, some dairy beverage, of course, because only that does body good. Right? And maybe a soda during the day, some caffeine, some empty calories. Maybe some grapes, might be the only fruit for the day. And then in a big hearty dinner and maybe some ice cream.
Robert Cheeke:
And you get the idea, this is what a lot of people are doing, including athletes. And so, when you look at that, the diversity isn't there, the diversity of nutritionist isn't there. And that's what leads to a lot of need for vitamin, mineral supplementation on a standard American diet.
Robert Cheeke:
What we found, Rip, and you've talked about this, and dozens and dozens of other people we've interviewed talked about this is, the moment you do a plant exclusive diet, especially whole foods, there's so much variety there. And what we do is we encourage people in the book, to list your favorite foods in every category, your favorite fruits, your favorite vegetables, your favorite legumes, grains, nuts, and seeds. So, when it comes time to create a meal plans, you know what to reach for, and you don't have to take that bread and set it on fire, and then douse it with butter to calm it down. You can have your oats and eat it too with blueberries and with flax seeds and chia seeds, and berries, and whatever you want.
Robert Cheeke:
So, I just wanted to point that out, that it's not just limiting amino acids in protein, but it's getting the benefits of complex carbohydrates when they're in abundance in a nutritional plan that it's just not always present in those who are not eating a lot of plants.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. So, you just mentioned carbohydrates. Let's move to carbs for a second. You guys, in your book, you talk about how really the carbs are the main event on the plate. What kind of carbohydrates are we talking about as an athlete, a plant-based athlete?
Matt Frazier:
I mean, for me, any kind of whole food carbohydrate is good enough for me. People worry about the sugar in fruit and things like that. I mean, it's just such a shame that that's what the rhetoric is on the internet, that too much fruit is bad for us because there's too much sugar in it.
Matt Frazier:
If you look at things like the Global Burden of Disease Study, I think it was the 2007 one, they found that the number one problem with... The number one reason that's responsible for the ill health of our culture was that we don't eat enough fruit. So, it's just such a thing that actual scientific research can demonstrate that, but what the internet says is that fruit is bad for us.
Matt Frazier:
Dr. Greger has a great study about people who drink sugar water, and then people who drank that same amount of sugar water, but also had some whole blackberries with it. And so, the people with the blackberries were of course, getting more total sugar because they were having that along with their sugar water. So, they actually had the lower insulin spike, flow of blood sugar spike too, because the fiber in the blackberry and everything else is in that whole package of food, which is how it's supposed to be consumed. It helped to blunt the blood sugar spike.
Matt Frazier:
So, that to me, better than almost anything else, goes to show you the sugar in fruit is not a problem, as long as we're eating that whole fruit, which is you probably shouldn't be juicing it. A little bit of juice here and there, maybe okay. Especially for athletes, that sort of thing can be useful to make like a homemade sports drink, which by the way, if you mix mixed one-to-one fruit juice and water, and a little pinch of salt, you have a pretty good darn good sports drink, a lot better than the stuff you're going to find on a convenience store shelf.
Matt Frazier:
Fruits are something that I pretty much as much as I can have. But carbohydrates, show up in so much other things, greens, beans are the huge sources for me. You've also got things like potatoes, sweet potatoes. But I mean, that's largely what my, and most people who I think are doing a good job of plant-based nutrition, their meals are built around carbohydrate rich foods, and they're complex carbohydrates. So yeah, I think that about covers the way that I eat, honestly. Robert, do you have anything to add to that one?
Robert Cheeke:
Yeah. I think it's important to note, especially, Rip, you talk about athletes, right? What are you going to eat before and after workout? And what I like, is I think I first heard it from John Pierre, talking about how, you take something like potato or yam, or oatmeal, or something like that. And it's fuel, like a slow burning log on the fire. I mean, you get fuel for the long haul. Or you take something like a refined carbohydrate, fruit juice, or whatever, and it's like a newspaper, just burning up and it's gone.
Robert Cheeke:
And so, as a former runner and as a former competitive bodybuilder, and as a current weightlifter, for me, it's those types of complex carbohydrate fuel before workout, like the oatmeal, like the rice and grains, and legumes, like potatoes, yams, and sweet potatoes. Those are great. And I'm also known for, just like I did it right before this this call to get energized, I had two bananas. That's my go-to a hundred or so calories in each banana, maybe 120. And that's what I go go to right before training.
Robert Cheeke:
And then what do you need after workout, Rip? What do you do when you're exercising? Well, you're burning through carbohydrate stores. You're burning through energy. You're burning through calories. You're sweating out electrolytes, and you're losing water. And you're also damaging muscle tissue, especially if you're doing resistance training.
Robert Cheeke:
So, what do you need? You need to replenish electrolytes. You need to replenish carbohydrates that were burned through during exercise. You need to rehydrate. And then, of course, regardless of what you're eating, you're getting those amino acids to be the building blocks of protein, to rebuild damaged muscle tissue. If you want, you can emphasize, put a little peanut butter on something, right? You could boost your protein intake if you like. But the idea is to fuel intelligently, replenish smartly. And that sandwich right there before and after workout. What you decide to put into your body can really make that workout that much better. Right?
Robert Cheeke:
I mean, if you just did simple carbohydrates before a big endurance event, you're just going to run out of steam, Rip. But if you fuel the right way and can get the slow releasing complex carbohydrate to just power you for the long haul, you're going to perform that much better.
Rip Esselstyn:
We'll be right back with Robert and Matt. But first I want to take a minute to say, I've been so thrilled this week to see such a joyful response to the launch of our new PLANTSTRONG granolas. Thank you to everyone who has visited our new online store at planstrongfoods.com and tried these new guilt-free, dessert inspired products. I appreciate it very, very much. And I had a small hunch. I wasn't the only one with a sweet tooth.
Rip Esselstyn:
This is a fitting episode to talk about our new granolas, because they really are the perfect fuel for an active lifestyle. We spent more than a year testing different ingredients until we found the perfect balance between whole grain crunch and sweetness, and spice. Over and over, our supplier partners told us that we needed to add oil and a touch of maple syrup, or just a little bit of honey, but we refused and we persevered. And after countless iterations, we had our Eureka moment, and the results were incredible.
Rip Esselstyn:
The four new flavors include, all-American apple pie, Tahini chocolate chip cookie, crisp mixed berry crumble, and classic oatmeal raisin cookie. My current favorite is the Tahini chocolate chip cookie. And I love to snack on it after my morning swim or as a topper to my Rip's big bowl of cereal.
Rip Esselstyn:
For a limited time, we're offering a sampler pack, so you can discover your favorite. It includes one of each of the granolas. So, please visit plantstrongfoods.com and check them all out. And if you'd like to hear more about the backstory to this endeavor, plus some tasty ideas to try at home, look for our new podcast, PLANTSTRONG Snackables. The first episode aired this week on June 15th, and we have some more coming very soon. These bite sized episodes will dish on all things, food. It's the one common denominator among the PLANTSTRONG universe. And now, let's get back to Robert and Matt.
Rip Esselstyn:
So, you guys have a whole section on the pre and post workout nutrition rules, as far as timing and also ratios. Do you want to talk about that for a sec?
Matt Frazier:
I can talk about that a bit. I actually think most people overthink this. In fact, I just had a conversation today on Facebook in a plant-based endurance athlete group, where someone was asking me about this ratio, because the thing that I've talked about for probably the past 10 years is this 3, 4, 5 ratio. So, it's three to one, carbohydrate to protein. So, that means for every one gram of protein, you want three grams of carbohydrate. That's your before workout ratio. During is four to one, and after, five to one. And the question was, why is the after one, five to one? We were talking about why that might be. But actually if you look around, that's just one source that I've been siting forever.
Matt Frazier:
But really, I mean, to me, that is, going back granular is probably overthinking it for most people's purposes. Four to one to me, just do that all the time. It's one number to remember, but that's about what to aim for when you're constructing a pre during or post-workout meal. So, if you're going to have, say 10 grams of protein, then you want about 40 grams of carbohydrate. You can go, depending on your sport, you're going to want to do different specific numbers. Like for running, it was always 30 to 60 grams of carbohydrate per hour was the number that I would keep in mind for endurance events.
Matt Frazier:
But it really depends on the person. Some people like to think in terms of calories, not grams. But that four to one ratio is a really nice thing to keep in mind. It allows you to keep the focus on the carbohydrate, but it also reminds you just to get that little bit of protein.
Matt Frazier:
So, if you're going to take dates, which are a wonderful, they're like nature's energy gel to me, this whole module dates, a lot of people will stuff like a Brazil nut in place of the dates, so they don't have to worry about pitting the date on their run. And they also get that little bit of protein. And is that exactly four to one? I don't know. I'm sure it's not exactly that. But that type of mindset to me, that keeps you like, you want to be filling with whole foods and you want to be listening to these rules.
Matt Frazier:
The other rule, if there is one, is for me, right after a run or after a hard workout in that 20 to 30 minute window, that's when you want to replenish those glycogen stores, that's the time for the high carb meal. And then what I'd like to do is ask you to have that, that's the big priority after you're done. But then one to two hours later, you're eating a higher protein meal. And to me, those probably average out to something like the four to one, five to one ratio. But in reality, it looks like a whole lot of carbohydrates, right? When you finish and then, your big beans and rice meal, or whatever other whole food plant-based meal, you want to have an hour or two later to celebrate and reward yourself for that workup.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, throughout my career as an athlete, I just ate until I was comfortably satiated and watched my weight, and make sure that I wasn't losing too much weight. I've really never had a problem gaining too much weight. And then I just found that, I didn't pay too much attention to how many grams of protein, how many grams of a carbohydrate, or any of that. So, I too like keeping it simple, but I think it's nice for people to have a little bit of guidelines to help them out, for sure.
Matt Frazier:
Yeah. It just depends on the personality, I think, and how you like to live your life. And the athletes in our book, they really, it just, it runs the gamut from people who are like you, just say like, "I'll just eat till I'm full. And I make sure it's whole foods. And that's good enough for me." And other people who are way more meticulous than what I just described, and down to every last gram they have it calculated, someone more like Robert, who has done a share of that.
Matt Frazier:
And that's one of the really cool things about this book and about that section of the book in particular, for me, was it demonstrated that there's not just one way to do this. It's not one person's approach, if there's a book you last read that that's how you do a plant-based diet. It speaks to the versatility and the power of this diet that it's hard to screw it up. I mean, if you're eating whole plant foods, you probably don't need to be all that focused on anything because everything you're eating is good for you, and has protein, carbs and fat, and all of the foods you're eating. And that's a very natural, healthy feeling way to eat, just eat the food.
Matt Frazier:
So, I think in many ways people do worry too much about plant-based diet, when what we should be worrying about is the non-plant based diet, the standard American diet. That's where we need to probably worry if we're going to be eating a diet like that.
Rip Esselstyn:
Big time. I mean, and you talk about the standard American diet. And what, guys, is the number one enemy, our foe as athletes? It's inflammation, right?
Robert Cheeke:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
And so, I mean, you guys have a beautiful section on page 185 on what Harvard University says are the pro-inflammatory foods. You want to talk about those at all and why they are not an athlete's friend?
Robert Cheeke:
Yeah, absolutely. It's primarily, animal protein is pro-inflammatory, animal protein and processed foods. And if we can eliminate those two things, we are on a course for success. And you can look at some specific foods, you can look at some specific studies, and there've been a lot more in recent years, which is really, really exciting to see that how plant-based athletes perform compared to omnivorous athletes. We have these studies now, some are as recent as 2021 studies. One came out in April, I believe, another one in February. We included one or two of those in the book right before we submitted it. And many other studies in recent years as well, that show that a plant-based diet is just as successful for building muscle and strength as an omnivorous diet, but there is often improved recovery, decreased inflammation on those with a plant-based diet. And we've got studies that show that, and we also have just countless first person accounts of that anecdotal evidence from all these people that we interviewed.
Robert Cheeke:
Rip, if we could summarize one thing from these interviews, one absolute takeaway, it was that a plant-based diet reduced inflammation and improved recovery, and therefore overall performance for these athletes. There are very few, Rip, who were born vegan. There are at least three of them in the book, they've been vegan since birth.
Robert Cheeke:
But what's more compelling to me are the athletes like David Carter, former NFL lineman, who at his prime, 25 years old, I mean, NFL football player, but had so much inflammation, he could barely push himself out of a bathtub. And adopting a plant-based diet, took all his pain away. He was pain-free two months later. He dropped 40 pounds. He got faster. He got stronger, even at a lower body weight. He was bench pressing more. He was inspiring other teammates, I think on the Oakland Raiders at the time, the team, and the Arizona Cardinals. And he's one example of many of people who came to this diet to reduce inflammation. I mean, the list goes on, Rip.
Robert Cheeke:
Another example I just like to give is Sharon Fichman, who was very similar to Venus Williams, in the fact that professional tennis players on the women's professional circuit, and had to step away from tennis for a while due to inflammation and autoimmune diseases. And were able to adopt a plant-based diet, bounce right back and become their best ever. And Sharon Fichman is playing right now, as we speak at Roland-Garros-
Rip Esselstyn:
Nice.
Robert Cheeke:
... and moving on in the rounds. And it's runners, it's powerlifters, it's bodybuilders, it's cyclists. It's some of the athletes that you introduced me to, Rip, which I'm grateful for. And we gave you a shout out in the acknowledgements for that.
Rip Esselstyn:
I saw that. I saw that, Darcy Gaechter.
Robert Cheeke:
Yeah. Like Darcy, I mean, incredible feat of kayaking the entire length of the Amazon River, which took five months, and an incredible effort, and also incredible dedication too, because people who were doing that mission with her would get off the boat and eat a burger. And she stuck to her plan. She stuck to her plan and she performed well. And then she celebrated by doing other crazy athletic feats in the mountains of Colorado, and always looking for the next adventure.
Robert Cheeke:
And Rip, it just comes back to the inflammation is the enemy of athletes. And look at Chris Paul. I mean, look at our NBA star, Chris Paul, whose career was, let's all admit, was going downhill. He wasn't an all-star anymore. He is completely revitalized his career, and is playing some of his best basketball of his life. And that's exactly what he said, was a plant-based diet that took the pain away, it took the inflammation away.
Rip Esselstyn:
Let's talk for a second about some of the professional athletes that have turned to the power of plants. So, you mentioned Chris Paul. You got, who else? Kyrie Irving, right?
Robert Cheeke:
Kyrie Irving. We got a whole bunch in the NBA. And you know that's my sport. I mean, a year ago before there were some trades being made, one third of the Brooklyn Nets team was plant-based. That was Kyrie Irving-
Rip Esselstyn:
Was that because of Kyrie?
Robert Cheeke:
... DeAndre Jordan, Wilson Chandler and Garrett Temple. Four out of 10 or 11 players. And JaVale McGee and I had a chance to meet him at The Game Changers premiere.
Rip Esselstyn:
But he's like 7'1", isn't he?
Robert Cheeke:
Yeah. Yeah. And a multi-time NBA champion, and Enes Kantor, and all these other people. Novak Djokovic, and Serena and Venus Williams, and Lewis Hamilton.
Rip Esselstyn:
Novak is tennis, just for people that don't know, Serena and Venus are tennis.
Robert Cheeke:
Tennis. And Lewis Hamilton is a Formula One race car driver.
Matt Frazier:
And soccer, don't forget soccer. We've got Alex Morgan. We mentioned earlier.
Robert Cheeke:
Yeah, Alex Morgan.
Matt Frazier:
And even Lionel Messi, apparently is vegan during the season. And he's one of the two greatest players in history, perhaps. And even at that level, knows the plant-based diet during the season is what it takes. And he's getting up there now, but he's still putting up the numbers.
Rip Esselstyn:
Don't forget that one quarterback that just won the Super Bowl recently, right?
Robert Cheeke:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Tom Brady follows mostly a plant-based diet, a plant-centered diet. But Cam Newton, a former NFL MVP is exclusively plant-based diet. Arian Foster had a tremendous year when he did the plant-based diet when he was inspired by Forks over Knives, and led the league in rushing touchdowns and rushing attempts, I believe that year.
Robert Cheeke:
And you go back even further to Tony Gonzalez, that reference, and Dr. Campbell's influence on him, and seeing what he was able to do to prolong his career. And I actually heard him speak at The Game Changers premiere. He unequivocally said that a plant-based or plant forward diet extended his career by seven years. And he's the greatest tight end in NFL history, arguably.
Robert Cheeke:
And so, Rip, what we're seeing now are pro athletes in all sports, even in like in pro wrestling, there's all these big macho guys, and a ton of them are plant-based now. Some of them are featured in the book as well, just because of their size, strength, athleticism, and the fact that they're in this extreme masculinity sport and are plant-based.
Robert Cheeke:
Many boxers, I mean, Mike Tyson did it for a long time. And I talked to him in person about it. And Timothy Bradley, and so many others, and mixed martial arts. You know that from hanging out with James Wilks, and all the others. Men and women alike in MMA, are coming to a plant-based diet for endurance, for recovery, speed, stamina, all of these things. Rip, I think it's just a matter of time until it's like, it is...
Rip Esselstyn:
Yep. I mean, it's legalized doping is what it is, right? I mean, it allows you to recover quicker. You hardly ever get sick. I like to say I had the immune system of a Canadian moose when I was training. You guys actually have a quote in your book about how exercise strengthens the immune system, obviously, so does the power of plants and reduces the risk of getting sick by almost 50%. So, eating plants, exercising, good combination.
Robert Cheeke:
And we've mentioned that specifically in our interview that you haven't been sick as far as you can remember. And that's another thing. And we don't want to make claims that you're never going to get a cold again, when someone sneezes on you in an airport, but the fact is that you can absolutely strengthen your immune system, because exercise and a high antioxidant, vitamin, mineral, fiber, water rich diet does that.
Robert Cheeke:
And also, I've referenced you a lot, Rip, over the years about avoiding the foods that have all this baggage with them. I mean, yes, meat is a source of protein, but it often comes with cholesterol, saturated fat. It's either class 1 carcinogen, or class 2A carcinogen. These are things to stay away from because they have baggage. Why not go to a source that has far less baggage, that is more friendly to animals, more friendly to the planet, more beneficial to your gut flora and your own internal microbiome, and your ability to thrive? Why not pick that option? And you don't have to sacrifice anymore. We live in 2021. Plants are everywhere. They've always been everywhere, but now they're even more abundant in restaurants and fast food places, and all of this kind of stuff that anyone in anywhere America can find a plant-based meal now.
Rip Esselstyn:
So, you guys talk about food combining here to increase absorption. You also talk about adaptogens. I'd love for you to talk about some of those combinations and adaptogens, just as being potential like super foods the plant-based world.
Matt Frazier:
Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of things that you can do, and I think at the risk of over-complicating things. I don't want people to think, they hear this and they're like, "Well, now I have to worry about this and this, and this." And it's really not that. These are bonuses you can get, if you want to do things right. As we've said over and over, if you just eat whole plant foods, you're going to be doing really, really well. So, I don't think it's something to get hung up on.
Matt Frazier:
But people worry about iron all the time, which is not necessarily a legitimate concern for everyone, but you can increase iron absorption by eating it along with vitamin C. So, if you want to cook it with, have iron rich leafy greens along with say tomato sauce or something like that, that's going to be in general, a good practice. And it's not something you need to do every time. But if you want to do that kind of thing, you can increase absorption of certain things. Turmeric and black pepper is a well-known one. That you can increase the bioavailability of the curcumin by 20 times or so with just a little eighth of a teaspoon of black pepper with your turmeric.
Rip Esselstyn:
And what does that help with? Inflammation or what?
Matt Frazier:
Turmeric, that's a huge anti-inflammatory food, which is what a lot of these are. Tart cherries, another really great anti-inflammatory food, whether you eat it in its whole form or in a juice extract form, as a post-workout supplement almost, which is the way that I use tart cherry juice.
Matt Frazier:
So yeah, I mean, you've got those things. Of course, you have the adaptogens, things like mocha, which are just, I think adaptogens is something as far as adrenals go. It can help you feel your body get stimulated feeling when it needs it, and it can have a calming effect when it needs that. And that's why the name adaptogen is there.
Rip Esselstyn:
So, you said maca, give me an example, how would I eat that?
Matt Frazier:
Maca, it's a powder. I think it's Incan or South American root, and they powder it. You could put it in a mocha, that would actually be quite good, because it has that multi flavor. But if I remember using that, I'll just throw a teaspoon into my smoothie or something like that.
Rip Esselstyn:
You guys also talk about beets. And there's a lot of research on beets being an athletes best friend.
Matt Frazier:
That's like legalized doping. When you mention that, that describes to me beets perfectly. The data on that, they are very, very significant improvements, along with caffeine actually, but beetroots, I believe even more than that or beetroot powder, if you want more of a whole food form. Yeah. I mean, serious benefits to endurance.
Rip Esselstyn:
So, how does caffeine help an athlete? Because that caffeine is something I've never really had coffee or caffeine. How does that help an athlete?
Robert Cheeke:
I'll say, open that, I've been caffeine free since 2018, but I certainly used a lot of it before that, never coffee, but like your Belmonte. I got into that through Brendan Brazier. Basically just that stimulant that gets you energized, then you can do more reps. You can have more explosive workout. You can push harder. You're more alert. You're more focused. That kind of thing.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wait, you're saying that listening to Kate Perry is not going to do it for me.
Robert Cheeke:
It could. It could. It all depends on the individual. But also, Rip, we do put a note of caution in there, and that was largely me projecting or me speaking from experience, that you can also get really addicted to this stuff, that caffeine should be considered a drug. You can get addicted to it. And I certainly was, I was consuming a hundreds of milligrams a day. I couldn't sleep very well. I was totally addicted to it. And the caffeine source that I was using was flavored, Belmonte bottles that also had a bunch of sugar added. And so, now I'm getting all this extra sugar in liquid form that I don't need and taking extra excess calories. And we can get carried away with that.
Robert Cheeke:
And so, I think there's a word of caution with caffeine, but the whole idea behind it, is just that if you want a little bit of a boost. I mean, many people are dragging when they get to the gym in the first place, or they're dragging to put their shoes on. They're just dreading this upcoming workout. And that's just the nature of, I don't know, our current state, especially if we're not maybe super passionate about it, it's a chore to go exercise for a lot of people. And sometimes caffeine can give them a little a bit of that.
Rip Esselstyn:
Talk to me about creatine because when I was going through the fire academy, I kid you not, halfway through one of the guys started doing creatine, and all of a sudden, literally half of the class, there were like 38 of us, half, all of a sudden started doing a creatine. They ballooned up like 10 pounds. And then on all of our mile or two mile runs in the morning, they started cramping up and I'm like, "Creatine." Anyway, so they were gaining weight, cramping up. How is creatine helping athletes?
Robert Cheeke:
Yeah. Well, I'll just touch on this briefly, just because it's so popular in bodybuilding and strength sports. So, the idea behind it, Rip, and I've used it. I haven't used sports supplements in 10 years, but before that, I did use it. I did not have good results, incredible stomach pains. I couldn't even finish some workouts. I had to literally walk out of the gym. But it has been a well-researched supplement, and so far shown to be safe for most people.
Robert Cheeke:
And the idea is that it helps you retain water, which gives you more mass, which with more mass, you can move more mass, you can press more weight, which then can elicit strength gains. You get stronger, which then helps you get bigger. And so, when you're carrying more mass, you can simply move more mass. So like you said, you can add five or 10 pounds right away, because our bodies are mostly water anyway, something like 70%, 80% water. And so, you add more water, you retain water, you can get bigger and stronger. And that's why people, especially in strength sports use it because they see some benefits.
Rip Esselstyn:
All these guys were definitely lifting more. They were stronger. But it did not help their running for sure. What about, you guys hit on something, and I was like, wow, I didn't know that could help performance, and that's nutritional yeast.
Matt Frazier:
Yeah. I mean, nutritional yeast is a, I think of it even more than a performance food as like an immunity boosting food. That's one that I give to my kids as much as I possibly can. And we do like a little Parmesan sprinkle thing, where you take one part. Well, I guess, one part is usually used to four parts, raw cashews, and then a little pinch of salt and garlic powder to taste really. And that's a wonderful little sprinkle to put on almost any food. And myself, eat as much of that as I possibly can, and my kids. Well, I shouldn't say as much as they possibly can, as often as I feel like using that stuff, I do. And I encourage my kids to do it too, because I think it's an incredible immunity booster, and it's been shown to be that. It's not just the me or anecdotal. I mean, there's studies have shown that.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. And not that we need it, but for people that are interested in nutritional yeast, if you look at the macronutrient break up of it, it's 50% protein. That's kind of nutty.
Rip Esselstyn:
Let me ask you this, you guys. So, I love all the way you've sprinkled all the different athletes stories out throughout the book. And the beginning of each chapter is really great. It's such a great compelling read. So, I want to just, let's talk about some of these athletes that aren't as well known, because I think their stories are fantastic. So, I'll throw out some names, James Newbury.
Robert Cheeke:
Yeah. Four time Australia's Fittest Man. This guy is completely ripped. He's in the CrossFit scene. I mean, these are some of the fittest athletes on the planet, people who can combine strength and endurance, and balance, and utility, and all this stuff just with their body. And so, yeah, he's a guy, and I know he contributed at least one recipe to the book as well. And just an incredible athlete. He's got something like a quarter million followers on Instagram. So, he's influencing a lot of people. And that's what I love, that you can be a plant-based athlete and be considered the fittest person in your country. And by the way, we have another one, Jeremy, another one fittest man in the book as well.
Rip Esselstyn:
Were they inspired by Patrik Baboumian?
Robert Cheeke:
What's that?
Matt Frazier:
Who wasn't, right?
Rip Esselstyn:
Were they inspired by Patrik Baboumian?
Robert Cheeke:
Who knows? They could have been. That's the thing, everybody inspires somebody else. When you talk to people, you are their inspiration, Rip, or Matt was, or I was, or Vanessa Espinoza was, or Dotsie Bausch was, or James Wilks was, or Brendan Brazier, for a lot of people. And that's one of the fun things.
Rip Esselstyn:
I'm going to keep this rolling along. What about, who's Meagan Duhamel?
Robert Cheeke:
Meagan Duhamel is Olympic gold medal winning figure skater.
Rip Esselstyn:
Is she plant-based?
Robert Cheeke:
Yeah, absolutely. She has been for a long time. And she actually won every single world championship event one year. She won every single one in Paris Figure Skating, and went on to win Olympic gold medal. And now she's actually, she has a new pairs figure skating partner, who's also plant-based. He's an Olympic silver medalist, who's actually dating the fiance of Sharon Fichman, who's on the women's professional tennis tour.
Rip Esselstyn:
So, before COVID, at least once a month, I was playing Texas, no limit hold 'em poker. Right? I love it. You guys talk about Daniel Negreanu. I can't pronounce his last name.
Robert Cheeke:
Negreanu.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Yeah. This guy is plant-based. He's one of the best poker players in the world. Talk to me about this guy.
Robert Cheeke:
Yeah, Daniel is a hoot. I've trained with him. I've been to his house.
Rip Esselstyn:
Playing with him what? For poker?
Matt Frazier:
Yeah, he trains like bluffing games or something. Did you even blink first, or something?
Robert Cheeke:
No, he's into weightlifting. He's into weightlifting.
Rip Esselstyn:
Come on.
Robert Cheeke:
And he actually talks about, and Rip, you probably watch like me, some of these late night World Series of Poker on TV, and they talk about his diet all the time. And he talks about that, how a plant-based diet gives him focus, gives him fuel, gives him nourishment. And so, I mean, yeah, it's a different type of sport,
Rip Esselstyn:
Sure.
Robert Cheeke:
... but it's more of a concentration sport. And you could say it's a game, it's a card game. But it's also like 15 hours at a time sometimes for days on end in these major tournaments. And he was the world's number one earner for a long time, until he recently got surpassed, something like $40 million in earnings. And he's an avid weightlifter himself. And so, he's been following a plant-based diet for a very long time, very passionate about.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. What about Fiona Oakes?
Robert Cheeke:
I mean, Matt, I don't know, you want to talk about her? I mean, she's a legendary endurance runner, if you want to talk about her influence.
Matt Frazier:
You go, Robert, you're the athlete there. I've talked to, Rip, about it. We actually have an interview tomorrow on a New York sports radio station, I was like, "Robert, they only can have one of us." And I was like, "Robert, you have to do it because I know they're going to talk about all the athletes, and you're the guy who knows all the athletes." So...
Robert Cheeke:
Let me tell you, so Fiona Oaks has been plant-based for 50 years, or just about 50 years. She's in her fifties now. And she's been plant-based since five years old. She doesn't have a kneecap in her right knee, and was told that she wouldn't probably walk properly or even run. And she went on to set Guinness World Records in marathon running, the fastest accumulative time running on every continent, including Antarctica marathons and all those continents. And she's just a great runner in the UK, and has qualified to represent her country in the marathon, half marathon and 10K, all those distances. And she's been an incredible role model for so many. And on top of that, has an animal sanctuary with like 600 animals she takes care of.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. I saw a documentary about her a couple, maybe a year or two ago.
Robert Cheeke:
Yeah. Running for Good.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. What a big heart, what an amazing woman. Yeah.
Robert Cheeke:
Yeah. I've met her a few times on tour, and an incredible women doing great things in the sports world and for humanity.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. We'll have to put the name of that documentary in the show notes. I'll get that. So, let me ask you this, guys. If I want more information on the Plant-Based Athlete, some of the amazing meal plans that you have in there or anything else, besides buying the book, which I encourage everybody to do, is there a website we can go to or Instagram?
Matt Frazier:
Yeah. I mean, it's available anywhere books are sold. By the time this comes out, it will be released and it will be anywhere they are sold. If you go to book.nomeatathlete.com, you'll see a bunch more stuff about tons of people, including you and your dad have said about it, really, really great things from true leaders in this movement, along with a bunch of bonuses that Robert and I put together that we're going to give anyone who can get it before June 19th, I believe is the deadline for getting all these bonuses. So, you have a little bit of time if you're listening to this, as soon as it's out. But that's at book.nomeatathlete.com.
Matt Frazier:
And of course, my website is nomeatathlete.com where I have a thousand plus articles written over 12 years about all different aspects of plant-based nutrition. Of course, Robert you've got veganbodybuilding.com. Both of us are on, my Instagram is No Meat Athlete_official because someone beat us to the to the real name. But we just got the blue check marks, so now you know we're legit. And then Facebook No Meat Athlete as well.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow. Robert, and what are you on Instagram?
Robert Cheeke:
Yeah, I'm Robert.Cheeke, and I'm at Vegan Bodybuilding and Fitness. I've got two of them. And that's where I hang out. You've seen it, Rip, I do my flexing photos to be silly, but also just to show again, someone who's been doing this as a quarter century that no meat is no problem.
Robert Cheeke:
And so, really, Rip, just to summarize, and you said it so nicely for us that this is the book, this is the resource that we spent years putting this together, bringing the minds of all the great plant-based athletes out there, the men and women in this movement together. And in fact, every single recipe in this book, 60 recipes are from you guys, are from you, and from Fiona Oakes, and from Brendan Brazier, and from James Wilks, and from the people who contributed to the book.
Robert Cheeke:
And this is a true resource of... The curtain has been pulled back. You can see what these people do in daily life, whether it's 25 time champion, bodybuilder, Korin Sutton, or long distance champion and world athlete champion, Laura Kline. You can see what they're doing and be inspired by them, and hopefully, take your plant-based diets the next level.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. No, I love going through a day in the life of a plant-based athlete section and seeing what everybody is doing. A lot of it is overlap. A lot of it is very unique to the person and you can garner something, looking at each different athletes a day in the life of.
Rip Esselstyn:
I want to read a passage that you guys have in the book, it's towards the very, very end. And I think it summarizes a plant-based athlete perfectly. And I think it summarizes you two perfectly, and what you guys have brought to the plant-based movement. "Being a plant-based athlete is all about becoming your healthiest, fittest, happiest self. So, get out there and change the world, one bite, one, lift one step, and one smile at a time." Man, that right there to me is like, that's it, right there maybe.
Matt Frazier:
That's what that kind of a positive is what Robert Cheeke brings to the table when you have them as a writing partner, which I think is awesome. And as you said at the beginning of this, it's so cool to team up on something like this to write something that it wasn't about either of our stories or not about your story, Rip, or Scott Jurek's or Rich Roll's. All of us have done that. What the movement hasn't really had is this, where we have all different athletes saying how they do things, so that we can distill the common things. And like you said, we have to confine the interesting things that we can just... There's little nuance, whatever, something that just sounds like a fun thing to try that this one person does. I think that's what's missing. And it's really cool that we have been able to provide that to this movement.
Rip Esselstyn:
I'm going to go home, I'm going to get a module date, take out that, pit put in a, probably a Brazil nut for selenium, or maybe I'll throw in a walnut and munch on that thing. And I'll think of you, Matt, and you Robert.
Matt Frazier:
You'll go break some sort of world record, I'm sure.
Rip Esselstyn:
We'll see what we can do. All right. Hey, you guys, will you do a sign off with me?
Matt Frazier:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Repeat after me. Ready? Peace.
Robert Cheeke:
Peace.
Matt Frazier:
Peace.
Rip Esselstyn:
Turn it around. Engine 2.
Robert Cheeke:
Engine 2.
Matt Frazier:
All right.
Rip Esselstyn:
Keep it PLANTSTRONG.
Robert Cheeke:
PLANTSTRONG.
Rip Esselstyn:
That episode packed a punch. And Robert and Matt's new book, The Plant-Based Athlete is also packed with recipes, insights, scientific research, and profiles of athletes like me who use plants to power their workouts and their days. The game is changing my friends and it is PLANTSTRONG. See you next week.
Rip Esselstyn:
Thank you for listening to the PLANTSTRONG Podcast. You can support the show by taking a quick minute to follow us wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Leaving us a positive review and sharing the show with your network is another great way to help us reach as many people as possible with the exciting news about plants. Thank you in advance for your support, it means everything.
Rip Esselstyn:
Have you had your own Galileo moment that you'd like to share? What happened when you stepped into the arena and shed the beliefs that you thought to be true? I'd love to hear about it. Visit plantstrongpodcast.com to submit your story and to learn more about today's guests and sponsors.
Rip Esselstyn:
The PLANTSTRONG Podcast team includes, Carrie Barrett, Laurie Kortowich, Ami Mackey, Patrick Gavin, and Wade Clark. This season is dedicated to all of those courageous true seekers, who weren't afraid to look through the lens with clear vision and hold firm to a higher truth. Most notably, my parents, Dr. Caldwell B. Esselstyn Jr. and Ann Crile Esselstyn. Thanks for listening.
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