#92: Derek Sarno - 20% Wicked, 80% Healthy, 100% Sexy!
"Help me learn to prepare wonderful meals!"
“I don’t know where to begin in the kitchen!”
Here at PLANTSTRONG, these are requests we get all of the time and we understand! It can be overwhelming to learn how to make new meals that taste great, especially when you're new to a plantstrong way of eating. Today, we've got you covered with longtime pal and chef, Derek Sarno.
It's hard to match the passion of Derek Sarno, especially in the kitchen. His company, Wicked Healthy Foods, is bringing plenty of plantstrong heat to the world and changing the plant-based retail space across the globe.
It was COMPASSION, though, that brought Derek to a completely vegan lifestyle when he suffered an unthinkable tragedy - the loss of his fiance. That moment changed the course of his life, career, and ultimately his purpose. He started from the bottom up...and I know that’s where some of you may find yourself right now.
Today, we’re here to help you turn it around, become a wicked good cook, and bring out the flavor, fun, and creativity in your foods. We talk about:
33:00 The Proper Mindset Around Cooking
35:30 Getting Organized in the Kitchen
39:20 Flavor Boosters and Must-Have Kitchen Tools
43:30 Spices, Veggie Prep, Sauces, Gravies
...and it wouldn’t be a talk with Derek Sarno if we weren’t talking mushrooms! He is the leader of the Mushroom Mafia, after all.
Chef Derek’s Cooking Tips:
Mindset - It’s visual! Have as much stuff as you can on the counter. You’re more likely to cook it if you see it.
Getting Organized - Keep your kitchen area and utensils clean, make sure you have good work space to prep food.
Lodge Cast Iron Pans - https://www.lodgecastiron.com/
“Scorching” veggies - have the pan super hot, lay the veggies on the pan, then sear and press to bring out the flavor. Don’t put the veggies in the pan before it’s hot because they are more likely to stick.
“Up the herbs” in your food- Derek loves smoked paprika, granulated onion and granulated garlic
He also loves fresh Sage, Thyme, Fresh Garlic
“Brown your food” - sear, high-heat first with cast iron pan. Turn the heat on first so that food doesn’t stick.
Derek’s Favorite Way to Cut an Onion - Cut it in half, then peel it, then cut the ends off, and then start dicing!
Cauliflower - poach in boiling water first to soften. As soon as it comes to a boil, take it out, then season, and then put it in the oven.
Brussel Sprouts - Shave or thinly sliced, shake so they’re all broken apart, toss in a hot skillet in a little bit of lemon juice mixed with a touch of agave, little bit of pepper, granulated onion and garlic. No oil necessary!
Green Beans - toss in a bit of orange juice, or blanche them in boiled water, and then roast in oven at 400 degrees.
Cream Sauce - cauliflower, potatoes, or parsnips make for a great cream sauce
1/2 head cauliflower, 5 cloves garlic and a bay leaf that all get boiled in separate pot.
Strain off half water when it’s super soft
Take out bay leaf and then add the rest of the mix in a high-speed blender, add a little of the water and add non-dairy milk
Add nutritional yeast, mustard, pepper — to add the kick!
Gravy - same ingredients above, but instead of boiling, add them to a roasting pan, add sage, thyme, browning liquid, and then blend that together.
Episode and PLANTSTRONG Resources:
PLANTSTRONG Meal Planner - https://mealplanner.plantstrong.com - use code: STARTFRESH for a 14-Day Free Trial. Yes, you have to enter a credit card - but you won’t be charged if you cancel before the trial ends and that’s a click of a button. Enjoy the test drive and get cooking!
Order our New PlantStrong Dessert-Inspired Granolas! https://plantstrongfoods.com/
Black Mountain, NC PLANTSTRONG Retreat - September 25th-30th, 2021 - https://plantstrong.com/black-mountain/
Wicked Healthy Food - https://wickedhealthyfood.com/
Purchase The Wicked Healthy Cookbook
Links to Episode Music:
About Derek Sarno:
Chef Derek Sarno
Derek Sarno is the co-founder of Wicked Healthy, LLC, and also serves as Executive Chef & Director of Plant-Based Innovation for Tesco PLC, where he is leading the company’s efforts to bring delicious, unpretentious vegan foods to market.
Prior to co-founding Wicked Healthy and partnering with Tesco, Derek served as the Senior Global Executive Chef for Whole Foods Market, where he oversaw global research and development for the company’s prepared foods department, worked with suppliers and leadership to develop and promote plant-based foods across the organization, and served as Culinary Director for the WFM Academy for Conscious Leadership.
Derek is a serial entrepreneur, founding several award-winning restaurants and food service companies in the United States, including the One Hundred Club, Mahalo’s Catering, and Mizuna’s. Derek also served as the resident Chef & Gardener at Padma Samye Ling, a Tibetan Buddhist monastery and retreat center in upstate New York.
Derek is the co-author of the Whole Foods Market Diet cookbook (Fall 2018), and the Wicked Healthy Cookbook (Spring 2018).
Full Transcript
Derek Sarno:
So that's what we do with Wicked. Is we really push how exciting the food is that we're doing, and how amazing it is and how you don't need animal products. You just grow on that path and it slowly... as soon as you start swapping out meat for a plant strong dish once a week, it soon grows to twice a week, three times a week. Pretty soon over a course of a couple of years for me it was like, "Why do I have any animal products at all in my diet.
Rip Esselstyn:
Season three of the PLANTSTRONG Podcast explores those Galileo moments where you seek to understand the real truth around your health, and dare to see the world through a different lens. This season, we honor those courageous seekers who are paving the way for you and me. So grab your telescope, point it towards your future, and let's get plants strong together.
Rip Esselstyn:
At the very, very start of today's podcast. I want to stop for a second and just thank each and every one of you for being a part of the PLANTSTRONG Podcast family. It means a ton to me that you guys are listening to this podcast, and that it's hopefully helping you live your best plant strong life. I want you to know that we read all of your emails, feedback, and requests for people to have on the show. We know you love our plant strong healthcare heroes. I also know that you are inspired by the stories of people like yourselves, who have turned their health around with the power of a whole food plant strong lifestyle.
Rip Esselstyn:
Another request that we hear all the time is help me learn how to cook. I have no idea where to begin in the kitchen. So I know that it can seem overwhelming, but we got help. Help is here. It's on the way. I have a long time pal and chef Derek Sarno here today on the podcast. Derek's brother, Chad was on season one of the podcast. Just to give you a little history. We all worked together at Whole Foods Market. We were on the healthy eating team for about three or four years together. I can tell you having worked with these two brothers side-by-side, it is hard to match the passion of these two guys, especially in the kitchen.
Rip Esselstyn:
Their company called Wicked Healthy Foods, it's bringing the plan strong heat to the world in a major way. As they like to say, it's 80% healthy, 20% wicked, and a hundred percent sexy. It was compassion though that brought Derek to a completely vegan lifestyle, when he suffered an unthinkable tragedy, the loss of his fiance. That moment changed the course of his life, his career, and ultimately his purpose. He started from the bottom up. I know that's maybe where some of you may find yourselves right now. Today, we're here to help you turn it around, become a wicked good cook, and bring out the flavor in your foods.
Rip Esselstyn:
Derek and I talk about getting organized in the kitchen, the proper mindset around cooking, kitchen tools that are a must, little spoiler alert here. You'll definitely want a cast iron pan after today's episode. Spices, veggie prep, sauces, gravies, and it wouldn't be a conversation with Derek if we weren't talking shrooms. I'm talking mushrooms. He is the leader of the mushroom mafia in a big, big way. So get your pen and paper ready or visit the show notes of this episode for a detailed recap. So with that, let's have some wicked good fun with chef and friend, Derek Sarno.
Rip Esselstyn:
I'd love for people to just know a little bit about who is Derek, right? Because I got to know Derek and I came to love Derek. You're an amazing guy. You're a special human being, and you've had a very unique journey that's gotten you to where you are today. The extent at which you're you'd like to talk about it, I'd love to know, like let's start with this. Why did you fall in love with cooking? How did that start with cooking?
Derek Sarno:
Cooking to me is just a natural thing for me. Even in high school, I've always worked in restaurants. Even growing, like every job I've done is probably everything in a restaurant. Mind you, I'm not good at front of the house. I hired from waitering and like anything customer facing, I'm probably not the best, because I'm pretty, I don't know, I guess opinionated or strong-willed on what I believe should be for food that we're serving. So, I've just loved cooking. And one of the things with the restaurant, as I feel like I'm very OCD and very ADD.
Derek Sarno:
I'm all over the place sometimes jumping from thought to thought, and being in a restaurant really helps me, allows me to use all these different avenues, because there's so much going on at one time. So I fit really well into that kind of scenario.
Rip Esselstyn:
Did your mother or father introduced you to cooking or?
Derek Sarno:
Yeah. So my mom did a lot of cooking. My grandmother was really the one who we looked up to, and was always cooking. Every time we went over to the house, she was always making pasta and meatballs and sauce and just the typical Italian amazing food that my grandmother would always have. She was a real big influence on me because we were really close by her when we were growing up. Chad and I. So I was always very lucky that she would be having me in the kitchen helping her a lot. Chad was younger. Chad six years my younger. So I was the one always helping nana cook all the food while Chad was a kid.
Rip Esselstyn:
It's funny to me that both you and Chad have the made cooking, and being chefs your careers. In all honesty, did Chad want to be like his older brother Derek? Is that why he went into the cooking business you think?
Derek Sarno:
I don't know. I can't speak from that way, because we took such different paths. I'm six years, so I was out of high school before he was even in high school. Me, it was the only thing I knew how to do. I wasn't a very good classroom learner. I went to university for a short time, but it wasn't very good. I learned much better with a mentor. So every chef that I would work with was more of my mentor. But as far as Chad, he's been vegan for as long as I know. I was not. I've been vegan for a good five years solid now.
Derek Sarno:
Then the time I knew you and we worked together, I wasn't vegan, because I was the global chef of Whole Foods. So I had to work with all of this stuff. I was also the guy doing the small amount of meat in the condiments of health starts here.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. So I was looking through your Instagram posts and you had one, maybe two or three weeks ago where you said that I'm sorry I didn't have the balls to go vegan sooner.
Derek Sarno:
Yeah. Agree.
Rip Esselstyn:
Is that just because you just didn't have the awareness, or what do you think it was that-
Derek Sarno:
Yeah, a lot of it, you know what? I think a lot of it was spite. Looking at my mind and how it works and how I see things, I don't like being told what to do. I don't think people like being told what to do. So it's like as a vegan, I want people to stop killing animals, but it's very in that my natural instinct is to go, "Stop killing animals. Just stop it. Why are you doing that? Why are you doing this?" But that doesn't work for every... that doesn't work for me if somebody tells me that. So it's really like, what's the best method?
Derek Sarno:
So that's what we do with Wicked, is we really push how exciting the food is that we're doing, and how amazing it is and how you don't need animal products. You just grow on that path and it slowly... As soon as you start swapping out meat for a plant strong dish once a week, it soon grows to twice a week, three times a week, pretty soon over a course of a couple of years. For me, it was like, "Why do I have any animal products at all in my diet?"
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. But knowing your journey like I do, there was a point where you went to a monastery, and did that influence your thinking around kind of compassion and suffering and all that?
Derek Sarno:
Yeah. That was huge. So, if you want to touch base on that story-
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, only if you want to, but-
Derek Sarno:
Yeah, of course. It's really what changed my entire life. I'll just do a brief. Yeah. So I used to own a few different restaurants, and I had started my own farm. So I own two different restaurants at one point. They lasted like seven years. One was called Mahalo. Another one was called the One Hundred Club. I had sold those, started a farm because I had to sign a non-compete. So I couldn't do the same kind of business in the same vicinity. I didn't want to move away. So this was in it was in Portsmouth, New Hampshire, and like the surrounding area. So I ended up-
Rip Esselstyn:
How hard was it owning two different restaurants?
Derek Sarno:
Yeah. I don't know. I'm the kind of guy I just worked all the time. It was because my life is my career. It's my career is my life. I don't see much difference in it if you know what I mean. Some people can just shut it off. I don't shut it off ever.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. But you used just to hear all these horror stories about restaurants, and just how they, what is it? 90% of them don't make it. They're just like money pits. Were you able to make it work from that standpoint?
Derek Sarno:
Yeah. I sold them all successfully. Sold them, none of them went out of business. So plus I always believe that you have to be the highest paid person in your own business. So as the chef, I wasn't the guy who was not... I was the chef, so that controlled all the food, and I knew exactly what to do. So even if I did hire a chef to replace me on that spot when I did other things, nobody could ever leave and hold me by the ball. You know what I mean? Sorry I just said that. It's just like nobody could ever hold me over the cold, because I was always able to step into any position at all in the whole place.
Derek Sarno:
So that's how I always thought of it, because then I controlled it. Even if I did it all by myself, which that's how it started. Then I hired another guy and another guy and another guy. Soon I had 12 people working for me in a restaurant, and then another 30 people on call because of all the catering stuff that we had.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Okay. So you sold the two restaurants, and now you've got this farm...
Derek Sarno:
Yeah. And that's when I ended up meeting Amanda towards the end of that farm days. So Amanda was my fiance. She ended up being my fiancee, and we were together for three years. So she helped me decide. I went from a farm and ended up opening another restaurant, and I couldn't figure out how to do the farm and restaurant same time. So I ended up giving up the farm, leaving that, and just doing the restaurant. Yeah, that was instantly successful. Because I just had everything from before. Just all the clientele just came right to there. We were right next to an air force base. So Pease Air Force Base in New Hampshire, and that went corporate.
Derek Sarno:
So I had all the flights, the jets. So I was learning. It's funny because if I look at way I am now, all the experience built up to what I'm doing. So I had opened up a prepared food store and a deli. So we had like all sandwiches we were making. I was making meals to go. We were delivering the dinners. We had one of the first online ordering systems. So we post the menu every week and you would order it online and either come pick it up or we would deliver it to you.
Derek Sarno:
This was back in the early two thousands. Yeah, it wasn't as prevalent as it is today. You can call it delivery. Everybody's delivering, but back then it wasn't so. So from there I was working, working, working, and Amanda was so amazing. She was taking care of horses, and that's what she did for work. So in the morning she would do that and then she would come and work for me and just to be around me. So that was always working.
Derek Sarno:
There's a lot more to the story, but what happened one day is she was killed in a car accident driving to work in the morning. She was killed by a young boy who was driving the opposite way on a bridge, ended up hitting her head on, and she died shortly after that. To that point in my life, I was so, so ego-driven, if that makes sense. I was very focused on being really successful. I wanted you to eat my food. I didn't care what I put into it. I wanted it to be delicious, but I was all about sugar, salt, and fat. Everything. I just wanted to make the most decadent, indulgent, delicious food possible with animal products, and anything else in there. I didn't think about that stuff. I didn't think about sustainability.
Derek Sarno:
I was making shouters with two, three pounds of butter and four or five quarts of milk. It's hard to believe that. Then you add the bacon into that and it's just like, of course it's just fat. It tastes too good. But anyways, when that happened and I had all this business, I had everything I wanted at that point. When Amanda passed, I really had to look at myself because it was so devastating. I was so devastated. We were going to be married shortly. A few months later and everything had just stopped. I couldn't work anymore. So what happened was I ended up having one of my clients was Dan brown. He wrote the Da Vinci Code, Angels and Demons. Amazing guy, him and his wife, Blythe just amazing. They had known Amanda because she had come and done a couple of parties with me of theirs.
Derek Sarno:
They had given me a card and just said, "Look, Derek, we know you're in pain. Here's this address of this Tibetan Buddhist monastery in Upstate New York. You should go and just take the weekend." So this was roughly 28 to 30 days after Amanda had passed. So that-
Rip Esselstyn:
What year is this?
Derek Sarno:
This was 2007. Amanda was killed on July 12th. So I always mark that one day. I'm always talking about it on that one day a year at least now. We're looking at 15 years this year coming up. I ended up going to the monastery and then I just ended up coming back, talking to my son. So I have my son, Jake, who's 22, who you've met him. He's a big kid, good kid living in LA now. From a different mom. I had to get his permission and his mom's permission. I ended up moving to the monastery, and just selling the restaurant and pretty much selling everything and just move into the monastery for the next three years. That was where I started to cook. I really started studying the dharma and studying all about Buddha.
Derek Sarno:
Aside from all that, it's about compassion and that's what I really started learning more and more about. Then also paired with like, it was a vegan vegetarian kitchen. So as I started to cook again, I was only cooking that way. That's where I really dove into the greens, beans and grains and like out of the exciting. Mind you, I was very grief stricken. I was in not in a great spot mentally. I was just very sad. I was very sad. Yeah. To cook through that, I wrote about this whole experience, and to cook through, it really helped me. But I started from the bottom up again. I just feel like I went to the lowest place I could possibly go. I didn't want to live back then. After Amanda died, I didn't see a reason other than my son. I knew people love me, but it was really difficult.
Derek Sarno:
So everything I always held onto was my skills. Then when I thought like, oh, they don't matter anymore. It changed everything. But by going to the monastery and learning everything and really sitting and meditating was... I've done almost six 30 day silent retreats. In being silent, you really experience how loud your mind is and how you think. I really needed to understand my mind and how it works. That really put me on the path to being a better cook, a much more meaningful chef. It went way past my selfish needs of just wanting to like be the best, and make money and you'd like it.
Derek Sarno:
It expanded out so much more to thinking like every single thing suffers, and I suffered so much it felt so much pain that I could not look at another animal, and not know that they suffer as well. So that really is why I'm vegan now, and why that whole journey, even through Whole Foods. I talked about it through Whole Foods. That's how we met. I used to do the talks.
Rip Esselstyn:
At our immersion programs.
Derek Sarno:
At your immersion. Yeah, exactly. And all of them. I've catered 61 events. I counted them. 61 events in six years.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh, poor you.
Derek Sarno:
Ranging from 30 to 1200 people doing all the Whole Foods Market ones as well. I can't even remember what they're called. Tribal gathering. But having to do those talks, that really helped me solidify what I'm doing now. At Whole Foods going to like slaughterhouses, and chicken factories and then visiting all the suppliers, and helping them create healthier, more veg driven dishes. Working with you, working with our team. Our team was amazing that we worked with those. I love our team. That's awesome.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Margaret Wittenberg.
Derek Sarno:
We have Margaret, Joe, everybody. But yeah, that's how it solidified what I'm doing now. For me, it's not about veganism. It's not about anything else other than compassion. How can you live a compassionate life and work? So with my skillset, that's all I do with it. It's all about compassion.
Rip Esselstyn:
How often are you finding yourself going back to the monastery every once in a while just to kind of level set?
Derek Sarno:
Yes. I have tried to go back at least once or twice a year if I can. This past year I've been locked down. So I haven't been able to, but even for the silent retreats, I would try to go for at least half of them every year if I could. But I do long to go back. The only thing I moved here with Tibetan stuff to remind me and to practice with and two suitcases. I'm in London. So if you guys didn't know that.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right. Well, and I'd love to talk about that too. Before you left Whole Foods, you and Chad were kind of getting into this Wicked Healthy kind of brand that you guys started. It's absolutely brilliant. It's 80% healthy, 20% wicked and a hundred percent sexy. But how did you guys come up with that? It's so brilliant.
Derek Sarno:
Thanks. It's funny because, and Chad will tell you, I came up with the whole Wicked idea and Chad was like, "I don't know about it." I'm like, "Dude, come on, I'm going to do it." He's like, "I will only do it if it's a hundred percent plant-based vegan." I'm like, "All right, done." That's how we really started doing it. But we had been talking about this whole thing. Like what are we going to do together? What are we going to do together? And then we happen to work together sort of kind of at Whole Foods. We're on the same team. We both did different things, but we did get to spend a lot more time together.
Derek Sarno:
So the that's how Wicked was born. Also knowing like what you teach with the no sugar, no salt, no oil, all that. I love that diet. I think it's the best and most healthiest diet, far none. I think it's perfect for people who really need to stop that, because I did it. So in order for me to actually learn how and be really good at that, I had to do it. So I remember taking six months, and being, "All right, I'm going to be so hard core and do it." That's how I even got to be the healthy eating chef. To teach all the prepared foods guys, and to work with you even. So I learned how to do that, but it's very difficult to put it into a product. It's very difficult to get it on shelf and for shelf life reasons. There's so many reasons. There are some easy things that you can do, and I know you have some amazing products over there. I can see them. I remember working on some of them with you.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. You did.
Derek Sarno:
But it's not as easy, and people want easy. So the easiest thing is for people to cook themselves and take control of your own... whatever you're doing in the kitchen, you can do that. It's just timing and this and that. Anyways, long story short-
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Go ahead.
Derek Sarno:
... Wicked was born from that extreme to the other extreme, and it's to fall in the middle.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Wicked Healthy, how long after you left Whole Foods did you go over and become the chief director, and innovative guy at Tesco?
Derek Sarno:
Yeah. So, so the day I left Whole Foods, I think it was around in February. It was five years ago. So I don't even remember the year. 2016, I think. So the day after I went vegan, my resignation was over. I went vegan the next day. I planned to take the whole year off, which I kind of did. We wrote the Wicked Healthy Cookbook.
Rip Esselstyn:
Insane. And let me just say, oh, yeah baby. Look at that baby. Look at that, the Wicked Healthy Cookbook free from animals. Then look at this, look at this. This is why this is my sign right here. No need to kill for sheep flavor. Derek power to the plant, Chad, I love it, man.
Derek Sarno:
Thanks buddy.
Rip Esselstyn:
I've obviously used this. It's one of the most gorgeous cookbooks I've ever seen. Who in the world did all the photography.
Derek Sarno:
Yeah. Eva Kosmas did our photography. That's who I learned how to take pictures, because I think she's amazing. She's just really amazing and unique. She lived up in Portland, Oregon, where I did at the time. That's where we shot the book.
Rip Esselstyn:
Look at that. Look at that stuff. I think this is one of my favorites right here. For people that are just listening, I apologize that you can't see, but look at that. You're like scorching it and then look at that, look at that. That's crazy.
Derek Sarno:
That's the mushroom mafia right there. That's it.
Rip Esselstyn:
That's it.
Derek Sarno:
That's the whole thing. Yeah. When I went vegan the next day, I'm like, "All right, if I'm going to be vegan, I need to make it. So I'm going to eat it." because I can't be a hypocrite and do something and tell people to do another thing. I need to do what I say. So I just started really experimented with mushrooms. The year after Whole Foods is when I really dug into mushrooms. I learned how to do photography. We wrote the cookbook, I raised two squirrels in the house, Mildred and Hank, who you've probably seen on the gram back then. Then Tesco had called probably midway. I did another 30 day silent retreat all in that year. I think 2017 was when I moved to London and started working with Tesco.
Derek Sarno:
That was such a unique experience where they wanted me to come and just be a developer of food and some new innovative ideas. The CEO team here, the team is amazing. I really do respect and like them a lot. So they were just like, "Look, what do you think you could do then?" I'm like, "Look, I can do everything, but with no animals." I'll tell you right now just from my experience, I know what's coming down the pike because all this plant-based stuff we were working on it. It was very under the lights. It was under the radar as far as I was certain because people were like, what, what? Vegan is still... Plant-based was just a new thing. I think you made up the word.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, actually, I can't take that. It was actually, I think it was Colin Campbell. I obviously came up to plant strong, and you always like plant strong. What did you say? Plant strong, super strong or plant strong [laughter]- Anyway.
Derek Sarno:
Plant strong, wicked strong.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right. Anyway, I interrupted you. Go ahead. Keep going, keep going.
Derek Sarno:
Yeah. So, when Tesco called, they had me come over here to the UK, and just look at what the market was. There's no vegan items on. There was nothing in stores. Any retailer in the UK other than a falafel wrap that you could eat. As a vegan to go into a store, you had to cook for yourself. So if you're traveling, what are you going to do? You're just getting a falafel the whole time, or bread or salad. It's just not a way to live. So I put this proposal together and just said, "Look, we could hit this market with this marker, but I want you to lead. I want to make Tesco the best vegan retailer there is." That's what we're doing now. Now, it's been five, almost five years I've been here. Four years then some change.
Rip Esselstyn:
I think I read something where you and what you've done with the... is it the Wicked? Is that Wicked Kitchen?
Derek Sarno:
Yeah, with wicked kitchen.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wicked kitchen and your other kind of vegan offerings have like, single-handedly turned the whole ship around. It's nutty.
Derek Sarno:
It's amazing. Thanks. It's amazing what's happening. What it's done, it's created this huge competition. Now every retailer is doing it to compete, and I am thrilled. It's like, "Yeah. All right, cool." We were first to market amazing, but we really push everybody else to put it on shelves and that's just growing the movement. It's less animals. For me it's all about less animals being killed. We don't need factory farming. We don't need this. I don't expect everybody to go vegan overnight. I don't expect the whole world to go vegan all ever, but I do want and pray that it really does minimize the suffering. That's the one thing we can go for.
Derek Sarno:
I'd love to say the whole world evolved would be amazing. We'll look at the unicorns and rainbows all the time, but that's just not realistic. So I'll settle for, "Look, let's stop factory farming and let's really make the switch." Let's make the switch from right now it's meat and veganism. Let's just make it switch so it's the other way around.
Rip Esselstyn:
Absolutely. We were able to successfully eradicate smoking of cigarettes here in the United States. What that means is it doesn't mean that people aren't smoking, but it used to be over 50% of America was smoking cigarettes back in the fifties and sixties. Now, it's less than 20%. Wouldn't it be awesome if we could eradicate people eating meat, or animals and animal byproducts in over the next decade. So it's less than 20% of America is eating animal products. That'll be awesome for the world.
Derek Sarno:
Yeah. Looking back at it now, it seems like it happened overnight. All of a sudden you were smoking in pubs, and then you weren't.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, no, it's true.
Derek Sarno:
Can you believe they used to smoke on airplanes?
Rip Esselstyn:
No, I can't, I can't. There's so many things that used to happen. We'll be back with Derek in just a second. But first I want to share a couple of quick updates with you. I want to read an email I received recently from one of our meal planner members. Her name is Diane. In it she wrote this planner has changed everything for my family. They are simple recipes, simple choices, and simple decision-making with fruitful outcomes. The recipes are seasoned perfectly, which prevents me from being sidelined by having something tastes bad. I'm a food addict. Salt, sugar, and fat have my number and cooking has always been a challenge. It never tasted right.
Rip Esselstyn:
So I would get frustrated in below it, but now that I have this tool, I know that that excuse has been banished forever. In just two days, we have used six of the recipes, and every one of them has been amazing. Get this, my husband asked for the first meal again for dinner tonight. You know you have a winner when that happens. So, thank you for making this experience simply different from all the rest. It's because of a messages like this that we built the plan strong meal planner. It's success like this that keeps us going. Adding new recipes, updating features, helping save you time. It's why we offer our free 14 day trial. I want each of you to find a new meals that work for your household just like Diane did on the very first day.
Rip Esselstyn:
So visit mealplanner.plantstrong.com and then enter the code start fresh to redeem your free two week trial. Yes, you have to enter a credit card to redeem, but you can cancel any time during the trial period. Secondly, I want to take a moment to say thank you. I've gotten so many really beautiful messages from people who listened to the first episode of the Snackables podcast. It's our new bite sized plant strong podcast. Thank you for tuning in. This new show is a fun compliment to our long form series. My hope is that it will ignite fun adventures in your kitchens.
Rip Esselstyn:
We'll be sure to share these bonus episodes every couple of weeks, and as always thank you for sharing subscribing and writing reviews. I read every single one of them. Let's get into... And the thing about the name, the Wicked Healthy, how perfect is that as a brand to go into the UK. Where you've got Harry Potter, and Wicked is such a British term.
Derek Sarno:
Yeah. Wicked is big in New England. That's where we grew up. So nearby Boston Area. But over here, it's huge too, which everybody that says Wicked all the time.
Rip Esselstyn:
Then you've got the little horns, don't you coming out?
Derek Sarno:
Yeah. I don't have it on this shirt. Another one.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. The branding on that is just so spectacular.
Derek Sarno:
Thanks man.
Rip Esselstyn:
So, for our listeners, I'd love to dive into some of your ideas on what they can do to be better cooks themselves. You more than anybody understand kind of the plant strong way as far as we don't use any added oils, we minimize the salt and stuff like that. So we're really looking for ways to bring up the flavor, and you guys talk about that extensively in the Wicked Healthy Cookbook.
Derek Sarno:
I think we have a menu in there. I think we have a no oil menu in the book. Because we didn't do all no oil stuff, but we did do a lot.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, absolutely. So I'm just trying to think of where we should start. How about the mindset? What's the mindset that you can give people if they want to become a really good cook?
Derek Sarno:
If you want to become a really good cook. The best thing for me is hunger.
Rip Esselstyn:
Hunger.
Derek Sarno:
Hunger. Hunger is the best motivation. So for me, I can only speak from my experience of how I cook. I like to walk around, which is very difficult these days too, because it's locked down. But I do like to see food in front of me. So one thing I do in my kitchen as I try to have as much stuff as I can on the counters, like dried beans and grains and all that in glass jars. So, even if it's in the cabinet. But I have them there because I always see them, and then I'm more likely to cook them if I see them. So like once a week, I try to cook dried bean from dry instead of can, because I use both. It depends.
Derek Sarno:
I'm very busy, but I do try to dedicate some time to cook dry beans, obviously rice. Whereas there's so many convenient options. You can buy rice and microwave it. You can buy beans in a canned or frozen whatever. Those are all great. But I really do try if you know how to do your basic dry beans, soak them overnight, cook them out. You really understand the bean if you will, or how long it takes. And realize like, "Wow, it takes like a good couple hours simmering on the stove to make a bean that doesn't break apart." You can boil the crap out of it and breaks apart into million pieces. But I like to have everything perfect. You open a can and it's kind of perfect. Rinse off the water, and they're good. They're perfect. So how do I replicate that? That's what I practice every week doing different stews different this. But to make myself a better cook, and to cook more healthier, I definitely want, tip number one, have things where you see them and you'll be likely to use them.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. I like that. You had an Instagram post a couple of days ago where you showed your cabinet.
Derek Sarno:
Yeah, exactly.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. It was all the glass jars and the spices and the beans and everything. It was really visually sexy.
Derek Sarno:
Yeah. It looks good. What doesn't look good about having dried grains beans. Beans and grains, sorry.
Rip Esselstyn:
In here under mindset, one of the things that you and Chad talk about is getting organized.
Derek Sarno:
Yeah, that's one.
Rip Esselstyn:
Can you speak to that?
Derek Sarno:
Yeah. So I'm a very clean, and I would tell Chad, Chad, is not as clean and organized as myself, unless he's doing demos. Have you seen us do demos? Otherwise, I'll go back to that. I like to have everything clean. So in my workstation, I grew up as a caterer mainly. I had restaurants, but I did a lot of catering. That means going into other people's houses. So for me, I had to be like army grade clean, and organized everywhere, because one, you don't want to look like you're unprofessional. You want to look like you have your shit together. You want to look like that.
Derek Sarno:
But for me, it's more of my mind. With everything organized around me, my mind is organized, and I can think clearer rather than being messy, messy. I see a lot of shifts that are just messy all over the place. It drives me insane to the point where if you ask anybody that worked with me before, like retail, I was always a stickler about having your folded towel next to your clean cutting board, and your knife on the side to be at the ready. I still live that way.
Rip Esselstyn:
Derek's pet peeves.
Derek Sarno:
Yeah. It's one of my pet peeves, but it's organization. I also hand wash all of my dishes. I don't use the dishwasher. I hand wash everything because I believe there's no one job in a kitchen that's above another. Some people think it's a joke, but I aspire to be a dishwasher again, one of these days, or just to be a prep cook and peeling carrots. Because that gives you that one focus. You can just do it the best.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, it's funny you say that. I remember you, Chad and I, we were touring some Whole Foods somewhere and we had a little break. We went into a knife shop. So you could test out the knives and they had like maybe a potato or a bell pepper or a carrot there. This person, you went to town on this thing. This guy was like, "Oh my, I've never seen anybody wield a knife like that." Your skills are crazy, crazy. How does somebody get that good? Is it just repetition? Is it practice?
Derek Sarno:
It's repetition and practice. Yeah. Before I even had the restaurants, our own restaurants I worked at this place called the Schwinney Hut Waterville Valley up in New Hampshire. All we did was make soups and sandwiches. So, I was making onion soup almost every other day. We were cutting 50 bags of onions almost in a day. So, it got to the point where me and the one other guy were blindfold in each other, have all the onions laid out in front, and just you'd go through. When you practice how to hold the knife correctly.
Rip Esselstyn:
What is the best way to cut an onion?
Derek Sarno:
To cut an onion, to describe it have an onion, cut it in half, then I peel it. And then I cut the two ends off. Then I just slice it so there's only a little bit left and you're almost Julienne in it. Turn it, and then as you slice down. Some people do this other incision in the middle. I think it's a waste of time.
Rip Esselstyn:
Waste the time. I agree. I agree wholeheartedly. I've heard so many people say, "Oh my mother in particular, everything starts with an onion." Would you agree with that? Everything starts with no onion?
Derek Sarno:
Yeah. That's not a bad thing to say. Yeah. Most things do. So all these people who say I don't like onion. Well, don't start with an onion.
Rip Esselstyn:
Exactly. Let's talk about flavor, like flavor boosters. How you enhance flavor if you're not going to use a lot of copious amounts of salt, sugar, oil, and stuff like that. Like browning your food, roasting vegetables, scorching vegetables. You had a post the other day where you're like you scorched the asparagus tips and you did something. Your terms for it, scorching, braising, roasting. I love it all.
Derek Sarno:
I I'll do this whether it's no oil or not. I think every vegetable it's the hero in the dish. Even if it's a part of a dish. So if you look back, and I'll try to post something according with this, when you're doing this. But if you look back, you'll notice all these begs board. So I have these pans that are just nicely laid out with veggies. A lot of them on the Instagram. I posted a lot of that stuff. So that's how I cook. I use cast iron pans a lot because you don't need oil to cook with them. I need oil to preserve it, and I wipe it out, but you don't meet a lot of added oil.
Rip Esselstyn:
I just want to dive into some stuff as you're saying, and remember where you were going with that. But do you prefer cast iron pans to just about anything else? Is that something you recommend people get and is there a brand you like?
Derek Sarno:
I use Lodge because it's the most well known, but there are some really cool smaller ones, smaller business ones. But Lodge is really well known. I have the whole set here. I've had it in US when I was there too. All different sizes plus it lends well to the mushroom.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh, we're going to talk about that in a little bit.
Derek Sarno:
So, just going back to how I make the veg. I just will treat each one. So, when I say scorch green onions, or scallions, right (affirmative). I would just have that pan super hot lay either some dice onion, the green onion, like an inch thick or even smaller, or leave it whole. Then I just lay it on that pan. Sometimes I'll press it if I want the even sear so that sear is flavored to me. It's the browning of it. It's the crisping of it. Yeah. It tastes delicious. It gives you that grill outdoorsy flavor, the more adventurous.
Derek Sarno:
So each vegetable I would do differently. So then the asparagus, I would either add to the pan and then it just puts a little bit of a spoonful of water on it, cover it for a second. Then you get that steam. So it steams, and it's slightly roasted the outside sort of crisps it up, but it's nice. It's done perfect. The color pops because it's all visual. I want it all to be like super vibrant, and colorful. The veggies just cooked perfectly. Meaning there's not too much of a bite, but it's not like chewy. It won't break apart easy. So like cauliflower. I think I cooked, what did I just make the other day? You ever have corn beef and hash.
Rip Esselstyn:
Not in a long time.
Derek Sarno:
I know, but you know what I'm talking about. So they grind the meat with the potato, and they put it out. It's disgusting to me, but I made a version of it, a vegan version. I used a little bit of beyond me in it. I used a lot of potato and just boil the potato quickly just enough so that exterior is soft. Then I strain off the water, let it dry a minute, put a cover on a bowl. Then I just toss the spices, like really hard. You toss the spices and it really integrates with the potato. Then lay them on a sheet pan and roast them. Delicious. I think one of the biggest things I learned when I was cooking with no oil or sugar or salt was to up the herbs. People don't use enough. I might put in a recipe. If you're doing an exact recipe for an exact thing, that's fine. But I always use more even if I'm looking at somebody else's recipe. I'll add more.
Rip Esselstyn:
So speaking of that, if I'm just getting started in this lifestyle, and I'm listening to this podcast right now, what herbs and spices do you recommend are in everybody's spice cabinet?
Derek Sarno:
Yeah. I have a handful that I always always use. I will always use smoked paprika, onion granulars, and garlic granulated. So granulated onion and granulated garlic. It doesn't burn like powdered, and you can regulate them better. So I'm a big touchy, feely kind of person. So like I use a black pepper in a bowl. If any salt I add, I'm adding with my fingers.
Derek Sarno:
So I always know. I don't trust teaspoons. Stuff slips off. I don't like the tiny iodized salt either. The tiny, tiny. It's just too much. That's meant for a salt shaker, but most chefs will use the flake sea salt if you use any salt at all. Only on the top of a dish afterwards as finishing. I believe you can really cook a lot of really delicious food without adding salt to the cooking process, but add it at the end. Because then you have control over it, right?
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. You get the pop, you get the pop at the end because it's right under your tongue.
Derek Sarno:
Exactly. So granulated onion, granulated garlic-
Rip Esselstyn:
Smoked paprika.
Derek Sarno:
Onion and garlic.
Rip Esselstyn:
Onion and garlic.
Derek Sarno:
Then I made up my own seasoning with Wicked. So we have [Rip: Oh!]. So I like Sage in time too, but sometimes if you notice dried herbs, they're okay. But I really prefer fresh. If you can use fresh, it takes a little bit of time to pick the time off the leaves, but the taste is so much better than a dried one. Fresh garlic.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay. I want you to talk about building flavor with some key techniques. I'm going to tell you the technique and then you tell me how to do it. I want our listeners to know how to do this. So the first one is brown your food. What does that mean? How do I do it?
Derek Sarno:
Brown your food. So, sear your food. So it would be high key. One is either I have the cast iron pan and I have either cranked up wicked hot high heat. Get that hot. So when you put a veggie down on it, it's not going to stick. The biggest mistake I see novice cooks doing is they throw all the vegetables in a pan, put the pan on the stove, and then turn the heat on. Then everything sticks, and it burns, because it's heating up with the pan. Create that hot pan. This is where my weird mind starts to think.
Derek Sarno:
Because I think about all the density of vegetables. I was just having this conversation with a friend of mine who was watching me. He's like, "How do you know? How do you know?" I'm like, "You almost have to be the vegetable." It sounds stupid. It sounds crazy (laughter).
Rip Esselstyn:
I read something that you said just the other day where I'm constantly pushing the boundaries. Become the vegetable. That's pushing the boundaries pretty good.
Derek Sarno:
If you really do think about the density, and how much water is in a potato, and the density of it. You try it raw, it's not good raw. You're going to cook that out. So it's like, there's several ways to do it of any vegetable. So it's like being... it's just so crazy for me to say this, but be the vegetables. So if you're thinking-
Rip Esselstyn:
I like it.
Derek Sarno:
There, it just takes one minute to cook on a hot pan with a little bit of water. Like literally one minute, whereas compared to a potato might take 15 to 20 minutes, and you could do multiple methods where you can boil it, strain it, roast it. You could just do it in a pan. It's just depends on what you want to do and how you want to build that flavor and what dish you're making.
Derek Sarno:
It's good to play and experiment with all. It's just food. People get so upset about it. It's like, "Hey, it's just food." You can get it again. It's not that expensive and I'm not putting down like who... if you have the means to do it, play and practice. Cook cauliflower five days a week. Five days of one week and do it a different way and learn how that vegetable reacts to different methods that you do it. You will understand how to start putting more and more better dishes together.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, speaking of cauliflower. One of my favorite ways of doing cauliflower now is roasting it.
Derek Sarno:
Yeah. That's amazing.
Rip Esselstyn:
Roasting it like 425 for what? 25 minutes or something like that.
Derek Sarno:
So did you just pop it in the oven?
Rip Esselstyn:
No, I don't. I cut it. I usually slice it. I usually will put some a little bit of Bragg Liquid Aminos, a little bit of nutritional yeast on it and throw it in there. Yeah. What do you recommend?
Derek Sarno:
A different way to do it. Even if you do a whole one or cut it like you said, poach it first in boiling water.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh, yeah. Okay.
Derek Sarno:
Then pull it out, let it sit dry a little bit. Because I find if you just throw it in and you put your coatings on it. Then you throw it, it just gets dry. Whereas I want it soft and succulent. So I want that. So either poach it first. You don't want to over cook it, like you're just blanching it. So I want to blanch it. Either you can start it off in cold water or you can do it or add it to boiling water. But if you start it in cold water, as soon as it comes to a boil, shut it off, take it out. Season it and then pop it in the oven and roast it. It's another five, 10 minutes.
Rip Esselstyn:
I love it. Well, what's interesting is that I can't remember the last time I actually got a fresh cauliflower, and did it. I now always just use frozen cauliflower.
Derek Sarno:
There you go.
Rip Esselstyn:
It's already technically probably been blanched maybe.
Derek Sarno:
True. But you can't do a whole one. If you want to do like the mega whole head roast as your doing. I do take a big pot of water and I'll do that exact thing. It comes out amazing. Because you coat it with almond butter, and you're set taste sauce. Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. But like to me another vegetable I love roasting, and it totally transforms that is Brussels sprout.
Derek Sarno:
Brussels are really good. Shave them. Have you shave them?
Rip Esselstyn:
No. You come on. Help me out here. Help me out.
Derek Sarno:
So I would take the stems off of brussel sprouts, and then just either grate them on a grater, or if you have a mandolin, shave them, or really practice your knife skills and thinly slice them. Then toss them. So they're all broken apart. But then on a hot skillet, a little bit of lemon juice mixed with a touch of agave or something just to give it that pop, and a little bit of pepper, and a little bit of granulated onion and garlic. A touch of salt afterwards, and you're good to go.
Rip Esselstyn:
I like it. I like it. Any other vegetable that you want to give us a little tip on? We got cauliflower, we got brussels sprouts. What else?
Derek Sarno:
Mushrooms, green beans. Green beans, I love them because nowadays I can buy them in these perfect packages with the top clips. So I don't have to snip everybody in anymore. Which for me the little menial, I don't know.
Rip Esselstyn:
No, it is. It's a very menial activity. It is.
Derek Sarno:
If I have time amazing, I'll do it. But I always will either toss them in spices, and a little bit of orange juice, or whatnot, and you can roast them like that. But I also just boil them water, drop the green beans in, blanch them, and then toss them with your spices and herbs and then roast them.
Rip Esselstyn:
When you say roast them, we're talking about throwing them in the oven then?
Derek Sarno:
Yeah. So I always tend to cook on, in America, it's 400 degrees, in the UK, it's 200 Celsius. I'm learning this Celsius Fahrenheit's. So different. So I'm all about high heat because that heat, imagine you're going in that oven, and it's so hot cooking on the outside. It's my crazy head.
Rip Esselstyn:
Become the green bean.
Derek Sarno:
Yeah. It cooked it on the outside, and then it's still a good in the middle. I like hot temperatures for shorter amount of times, rather than lower temperatures for long amount of times. Because I want that crispy burnt, not burnt, but of that browning of the veg on the outside. But I still want it edible in the inside if you know what I mean.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. What about toasting nuts, and seeds, and spices?
Derek Sarno:
Yeah. That's always a good one. I believe Chad talked about that with you guys. So he's big on toast and spices and then using a pestilent mortar. If you have the time that really does help to do the cumin seeds, fennel seeds, this or that in a pestle and mortar, toast them first, quick pestle and mortar, toss them with some fresh veggies, pop them in the oven. Amazing.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. A lot of people are looking for like a cream sauce. Do you have any thoughts on... can you give us a cream sauce that it's a go-to for like potatoes, or rice or I like that?
Derek Sarno:
My best cream sauce is using cauliflower. So here's one of my head goes, if you're thinking cream sauce, sorry, what color do you want it to be? White? If you want it white-
Rip Esselstyn:
I am thinking white. Yeah.
Derek Sarno:
Want it I look like a cheesy sauce. You can make cream sauce out of potatoes, cauliflower, parsnips, any white vegetable. Cauliflower is really good for me. Sometimes I use potato and cauliflower, but mostly cauliflower. So I take half a head of cauliflower, about five cloves of garlic, bay leaf. I boil that in a separate pot until it's like super soft to breaking apart. I'll strain off half of the water, but then I'll put in a Vitamix, or a really high-speed blender. Add your cauliflower, the garlic whatever's in there. Take the bay leaf out, add a little bit of that water because the water is flavor. It's just got all the flavor in it, and I'll save that and set it aside. But then I'll add a little bit of oat milk.
Derek Sarno:
You can do it. So just start blending and you'll see how thick it is. Then you can add a little bit of the old milk or whatever you want, unsweetened. That makes an amazing base for your cream sauce. So from that I use, you can add nutritional yeast to make it cheesy. I can add crack black pepper and do a peppercorn sauce. I can add mustard and do a mustard cream. I add horseradish and mustard and you have this amazing mustard horseradish cream sauce. It's so versatile. I think I have a lot of recipes up on... we have them on our site or on the YouTube using these exact methods of making this up.
Rip Esselstyn:
What is your site?
Derek Sarno:
So it's wickedhealthyfood.com, and then our YouTube site is Wicked Foods, YouTube.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Would you ever add like some cashews or walnuts to there or you?
Derek Sarno:
You can. So you can. So it depends on what you want to do with it. So what I've discovered and you don't need any oil for these sauces. Even naturally, I don't use them anyways. If you add nuts, it's going to thicken up when it chills. So imagine the density of a nut like cauliflower nut. Think of them. Look at them both together. It's super dense. It's super dense. There's no water in it. Cauliflower much more water, a lot more fiber in it. And it's not so dense. It's so funny that I haven't this conversation out loud and it's not just me (laughter).
Derek Sarno:
But if you add nuts to it, and yes, you can make an amazing sauce and it's thick and it's really rich. But as it sits, it really gets thick. If you mix that with your pasta, it's too thick and dry. So I don't have the nuts to it. Sometimes I will, but I won't a lot. I'll have to add a lot more liquid.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. What about a gravy? Do you have a go-to gravy that you can recommend for people?
Derek Sarno:
Yeah. Go to gravy. So what I would do is take the same ingredients that I just told you. Cauliflower, garlic. Except instead of boiling them, I might add them to a roasting pan, because I want that caramelization. I might take onion separately, caramelize the onions in the cast iron pan. So that's adding it to hot. You have to add a lot of onions. When I caramelized onions, it's not just a few onions on a pan, because then you're going to burn them. You need to add, like if you have a cast iron pan, I would add at least two or three Julienned onions. It looks like a good pile of onions. That will slowly cook down on a medium high heat that will slowly cook down. If you need to add a little bit of broth and use a little bit of broth. But you shouldn't have to because the natural juices and water from the onions were starting to come out and really brown up.
Derek Sarno:
So then I use that, add that to the cauliflower, add Sage a little bit of first time. Then you blend that. For the color, there's a Browning liquid seasoning that you can buy, and you only need like a half of a capful. Do not go crazy with that stuff, because then it'll turn it black. But that gives you that color, and that a liveliness. I also do this with mushrooms. I think I have a really good mushroom one. Where I shred mushrooms. So it looks like your traditional Turkey gravy with the shredded mushrooms in it.
Rip Esselstyn:
So speaking of mushrooms, I let the plant's drunk community know that I was going to be talking to you today. So I got a couple of questions from some of the community members. So this first one, speaking of mushrooms, it's perfect. This is from Amy. I'm going to read this to you. Your pressed mushroom steaks are amazing. Can you explain how someone who follows a whole food plant-based, no oil way of eating can make amazing mushrooms without adding any oil? Signed an oil-free mushroom mafia member complete, and total fan girl.
Derek Sarno:
Amazing. Thank you, Amy. Thank you much. Look, I actually did a video where we compare. So on YouTube. I'll have to send it to you after this. So I did a video where I compared them both. I did one with oil, and one with Noah because I knew this question was going to come up from the audience. So, a lot of people give me shit because I use oil and a lot of cooking. But I do just as much no oil cooking. But it's interesting how I want people to just stop eating animals. You're doing amazing with you do, but my mission is just to get people to stop eating animals. I don't do it for the health reasons. And says yes, it's healthier, but that's the reason why.
Derek Sarno:
So I cook a broad range of things. I show a really good video, which I think you'll like a lot because I show no oil to oil, and the difference is length of time cooking. You have to pay attention a lot more when you're not using oil, because it's more likely to burn because there's nothing preventing that pan. There's nothing preventing it from sticking and yeah. That's all. But it's totally doable. It just takes a little bit more time, and a little bit more thought, but it's totally doable.
Rip Esselstyn:
So what's your mushroom of choice right now if you're making mushroom steaks? Do you like the lion's mane, or what do you think?
Derek Sarno:
So my best mushroom of choice would be lion's mane, but it's the hardest one to come by. But if you can come by them, they make amazing steaks and very much similar to like pork cutlets, or just to name an animal. How I've remember it would be the familiar. So it's an amazing steak. Plus the benefits of lion's mane mushroom are just amazing. It's one of the only mushrooms I think that's helpful for memory loss, or dementia and all that fun stuff. So that's a good mushroom for that and it's super delicious, super juicy. It's amazing. We have that recipe in the book. I think I do a liver and onions recipe in the cookbook, in the Wicked Healthy Cookbook.
Derek Sarno:
Then my second best would be the king oyster mushrooms. I do love maitake, but I can't find maitake here as much as I can do, sorry, the brown oyster. So it's either brown oyster or gray oyster, which are more easily found in America, and here in the UK and elsewhere.
Rip Esselstyn:
What about the chanterelle?
Derek Sarno:
Chanterelle are great, but they're not for steaks.
Rip Esselstyn:
No.
Derek Sarno:
Those are single mushrooms. So, if you're looking at like, shiitake, chanterelle amazing mushrooms, but they're not going to make you this showstopping steak that you showed in the book, the picture.
Rip Esselstyn:
And the showstopping mushroom steaks that you made at the game-changers restaurant.
Derek Sarno:
That's right. That's where I saw you last.
Rip Esselstyn:
Red carpet premiere. I think that was 2019. You flew over just to cook for that event.
Derek Sarno:
That was fun. That's right. That's where I saw you last.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, exactly. All right. Here's another one. Okay. You ready? This is from Chef Kirk. I'm the executive chef at a kitchen that works with inmates at a healthcare facility. We prepared about 1200 meals per day. I am rewriting my current four weeks cyclical menu. As much as I would love to go all plant-based, I would also like to lower the chance of meeting the pointy end of a shift. I am going to go more on a meatless Monday scenario. I have breakfast covered. I'm looking for lunch and dinner options. Suggestions, Derek on dishes that could be ramped up.
Derek Sarno:
Yeah. Let me see. If you have any way to make wraps or burritos or enchiladas, that I think would go over super well. If you remember my talks Rip when I first learned how to go plant strong. I was only eating salads. I'm like, "Oh, I can't live on salads." I eat them like three or four days. I got so mad, but what did I do? I put it all into a rap. All of a sudden it was this brand new meal. I felt like a man again. Like I'm like eating this huge wrap.
Derek Sarno:
If you put anything into a burrito or in like an enchilada, and you make that cream sauce, like we just talked about with cauliflower. We have plenty of recipes for that for ideas or tips. It's easy enough to make and you just roast off the whole tray of enchiladas, or burritos, whatever you want to do. Cut them in half, or you can wrap the burritos individually. He's a chef. He knows what he's doing, but that's what I would probably go with. Mexicans really good to do.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. I find it, and I always tell people this. The way I got a bunch of Texas male firefighters to do this was to take dishes they love and plant strongerfy them. I know you guys make an amazing Mac and cabs, macaroni and cheese. That these inmates would just adore. Same thing with like a, what is it? A Shepherd's pie. With lentils and the mashed potatoes and yeah, you can do amazing things.
Derek Sarno:
Totally. There's so many different things you can do, especially if you're serving at hot right there. Then yeah, I think it's great.
Rip Esselstyn:
All right. I've got a couple more. Are you good?
Derek Sarno:
Yeah. I'm good.
Rip Esselstyn:
All right. This is from Debbie. Well, I feel like we already did this, but I am terrible with using herbs and spices. My food is bland and I am tone deaf when it comes to seasoning. How do I use them?
Derek Sarno:
Yeah. Use them. Like sometimes the answers right in front of you, where it's like, just use them. Experiment with different ones. We created a whole line of Wicked Kitchen spices here, where I have like these mango masala blend. So it's an Indian blend with like tumeric, and mango powder and super delicious, super flavorful, but try new items. Like once every time you go shopping, every other time, grab a new spice mix, and just play with it and see what it is. One of the reasons why I wanted to do a spice line is because if you go into the stores, there's pork seasoning, steak seasoning this or that. Most of them are vegan. They just have the stupid animal name. Not animals stupid, but they have that stupid name on it.
Derek Sarno:
So people won't likely pick it up, but I want those flavors to come through. So, another way to do it is to take nutritional yeast. We've also developed like the first nutritionally seasoning. We'll have a barbecue nuke, a ranch nuke, and a garlic and herb nuke.
Rip Esselstyn:
Stop it. Just stop it.
Derek Sarno:
You want to take that at home. Put sprinkle on a popcorn, yes. Pizza, yes. But try cooking with it. Take nutritionally, like, let me see. A ratio, three tablespoons of nutritional yeast and do one teaspoon of granulated onion, another teaspoon of granulated garlic. Do another teaspoon of smoked paprika. Just use that and try cooking vegetables with that. That will boost flavor a lot. Then if you bump up the nutritional yeast, you can also use that to make broth.
Derek Sarno:
So, it's really good to make like a smoky... that's how I make all these ramens now. So all the ramens you might see, like I think [affirmative] saw what I just posted. That was made with the barbecue niche. So it's a barbecue season nutritional yeast. Makes amazing broth. You just have to test how strong and you want it in the water.
Rip Esselstyn:
So somebody was like they would love to get your cookbook, but they just want to know how easy is it to make the recipes that have oil oil-free? Can you just leave it out?
Derek Sarno:
We do have some that are oil free already. Some things they don't come up the same way if you just exclude the oil. You have to balance it out. This is one thing that I learned even developing products to add more vegetables to something doesn't mean just adding more vegetables. You really have to balance everything out so it all comes out. Well, I don't know off the top of my head in the book what is. There's a lot of stuff that can be easily done. Some things are not as easy.
Rip Esselstyn:
Can I tell you. So I love the humor in this book. So for example, you have like three or four pages on the equipment, must have equipment in the kitchen. Then it says tweezers and I'm like, "Tweezers, why do you need tweezers?" Then it says in case you get urge to pluck an eyebrow. Something like that. Was that your viewer?
Derek Sarno:
Yeah. It's all this fancy food. I'm for all kinds of food, but the fancy, fancy food, it's not something you do at home so why bother. A lot of chefs out there. I want to create food that's mainstream, and like delicious. I don't need to be a niche, fancy food, $200 plates. I want to eat.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. It's nighttime there I think almost. You're seven hours ahead. So it's like 11 here. So it's like what? Six o'clock there?
Derek Sarno:
Five o'clock.
Rip Esselstyn:
Five o'clock. Can you let us know what'd you have for breakfast and lunch today?
Derek Sarno:
Honestly, today is Wednesday. So it's a big day for samples. So I go into the office, and I pick up as much samples as I can to bring them home, because I've been working from home lately. So I have 32 different products to try.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh my gosh.
Derek Sarno:
That are going into either Plant Shift or Wicked Kitchen. So I didn't have a lunch other than sampling food today.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. If you had a favorite, like go-to breakfast, would it be steel cut oats, oatmeal?
Derek Sarno:
Yeah, I love that. That'd be more of a weekend thing for me. Honestly Rip I don't eat a lot of breakfast. Sometime I drink coffee. I like my coffee. I get up in the morning. I do my sit. I read from 5:00 AM to 9:00 AM as my time just for me. I don't eat a lot. I'll eat fruit, I'll eat bananas or bananas. I'll feed my dog bananas because she loves them. That's it. Sometimes I'll eat some of the new Oatly yogurt, which is amazing, but I don't eat a lot of breakfasts.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Is there a food or a vegetable or a grain that you're just like totally gagagugu over right now? Like you have been for mushrooms for awhile.
Derek Sarno:
Yeah. I agree. As far as mushrooms, always. Every single veg. So what you have in the US compared to what I have here is slightly different, because being by Whole Foods in the US is like so many different varieties of edge. Here, it seems like it's the same thing all the time. You get broccoli, green beans, cauliflower, peas. I use a lot of peas. I do love peas, frozen or fresh, doesn't matter. Blended or whole. I add them to practically everything. I always have frozen peas everywhere. I'll have them just so many things, even to rice. Like when rice is almost finished cooking, I'll add a bag of frozen peas to it and finish it off stir it in. It's just a great way to add extra veg to your meal, you know?
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Is there anybody, any chef or any person that's really inspired you or inspires you?
Derek Sarno:
Every buddy who's cooking vegan inspires me. Lots of vegan chefs out there that are doing that, but I don't know. Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Is there somebody in your life that is your hero?
Derek Sarno:
My teachers would be from the monastery. Yeah. I don't know how to answer those. It's really funny, because a lot of people... Everything about what I do is still very much rooted in my practice, and what I put my belief. Just being more compassionate. So I really I don't talk about it a lot with other people. I'm much more food facing, but everything behind the face is what I study, and the whole thing. Yeah. I wouldn't be here if I didn't go to there, and learn. Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Awesome.
Derek Sarno:
That makes sense.
Rip Esselstyn:
Hey, animals are my hero. They are. Hey Derek, it has been just an absolute joy for me to connect with you again. I really appreciate you sharing your part of your evening with the PLANTSTRONG Podcast listeners. This has been a real gift. Thank you.
Derek Sarno:
It's great seeing you. I do. I miss you a lot, man. I love you, you know? Like brother. It was so fun hanging out when we worked together. Look forward to the day we can actually hang out in person again.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh, yeah. Hey, I wish you all the best. Way to continue to literally change the way grocery stores... Well, yeah, it's crazy. You have single handedly... you're changing the landscape and for the better. It's all because of your practice, and your compassion, and your passion for all things plant based. You're a trailblazer dude.
Derek Sarno:
Thanks buddy. We're coming to America. Wicked will be there soon.
Rip Esselstyn:
I know. It's going to be wild.
Derek Sarno:
I know. It'll get me over there to see as soon.
Rip Esselstyn:
Good. Hey, will you a sign off with me? Peace. Repeat after me. Peace, engine two.
Derek Sarno:
Engine two.
Rip Esselstyn:
You're plant strong.
Derek Sarno:
Plant strong brother.
Rip Esselstyn:
My man, Derek Sarno is literally changing the plant-based retail landscape across the globe. Proving that having compassion, 80% healthy, 20% wicked, and a hundred percent sexy can definitely go a long, long way. Again, for more information on today's episode visit the episode page at planstrongpodcast.com. Next week, you'll want to be sure to tune in for our 4th of July holiday weekend with former USA, Olympian track cyclist, and plant strong powerhouse, and star of The Game Changers Documentary Dotsie Bausch.
Rip Esselstyn:
Thank you for listening to the plan strong podcast. You can support the show by taking a quick minute to follow us wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Leaving us a positive review and sharing the show with your network is another great way to help us reach as many people as possible with the exciting news about plants. Thank you in advance for your support. It means everything. Have you had your own Galileo moment that you'd like to share? What happened when you stepped into the arena and shed the beliefs that you thought to be true? I'd love to hear about it. Is it plantstrongpodcast.com to submit your story, and to learn more about today's guests and sponsors.
Rip Esselstyn:
The PLANTSTRONG Podcast team includes Carrie Barrett, Laurie Kortowich, Ami Mackey, Patrick Gavin, and Wade Clark. This season is dedicated to all of those courageous true seekers who weren't afraid to look through the lens with clear vision, and hold firm to a higher truth. Most notably my parents, Dr. Caldwell B Esselstyn, Jr, and Ann Crile Esselstyn. Thanks for listening.
Podcast Sponsors
