#257: Niki Davis, MD - The Doctor That Loves to "De-Prescribe" Meds
Dr. Niki Davis is licensed in 12 states with Love. Life Telehealth
Rip welcomes Dr. Niki Davis, a former rocket scientist-turned-lifestyle medicine physician.
Dr. Davis discusses her transition from engineering to promoting a plant-based lifestyle at Love Life Telehealth. She reflects on the influence of a plant-based diet on her career shift, and the impact of whole-food, plant-based nutrition on patient care.
The conversation explores "de-prescribing medications," empowering patients through lifestyle changes, and the transformative effects of a plant-based diet on health outcomes.
She also shares some of the lessons and wisdom she gleaned working under the late, great Dr. John McDougall and other notable plant-based physicians during her training.
Her second career has really "taken off" and we're thrilled to share it.
Episode Highlights
4:16 A Journey from Rocket Scientist to Lifestyle Medicine
14:38 The Joy of Impacting Lives Through Lifestyle Medicine
16:46 Training under Dr. John McDougall
21:47 De-prescribing Medications for Better Health
27:19 Personal Transformation on a Whole Food Plant-Based Diet
30:06 Impact of Whole Food Plant-Based Diet on Cholesterol Levels
34:30 Discussion on Ozempic and Wegovy Drugs
37:54 Common Issues with Thyroid Health
41:57 Journey to Love Life Telehealth
42:39 Cooking with Chef AJ
47:46 Finding Her Love for the Outdoors and Adventure
56:05 Favorite Recipes and Meals
1:02:39 Get out into Nature!
Learn more about Dr. Davis
About Niki Davis MD
Dr. Niki Davis is a board-certified family medicine and lifestyle medicine physician. Earlier in her career, she worked as an engineer on the space shuttle program. However, after finding her passion for using food as medicine to prevent, treat, and reverse chronic disease, she left her job as a “rocket scientist” and transitioned into medicine. While in training, she had the opportunity to intern with Dr. John McDougall, Dr. Anthony Lim, Dr. Alan Goldhamer, and Dr. Michael Klaper. She is a regular guest on Chef AJ Live! and speaks at events around the country. She lives in Salt Lake City, Utah with her son.
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Episode Transcription via AI Transcription Service
[0:00] I'm Rip Esselstyn, and you're listening to the PLANTSTRONG Podcast. From a rocket scientist to a whole food, plant-based lifestyle medicine physician, today I'm going to share with you the incredible story of Dr. Niki Davis, right after these words from PLANTSTRONG.
[0:21] I'm at the farm in upstate New York, and that's why you may hear the birds in the background. It is, it's a beautiful July day here. With that being said, the trajectory of today's guest, Dr. Niki Davis is kind of just like a rocket ship, which is funny since she used to be an engineer who worked on space shuttles with NASA. Thankfully, her second career as a board certified family medicine and lifestyle medicine doctor has also taken off like a rocket ship through her work with Love Life Telehealth, where she's currently licensed in 12 different states. Today, she shares why she's so passionate about de-prescribing, I love that word, de-prescribing medications for her patients. She also shares some of the lessons and wisdom that she gleaned working under the late, great Dr. John McDougall. It's a beautiful conversation with Dr. Niki Davis.
[1:30] Dr. Niki Davis, welcome to the PLANTSTRONG podcast from Salt Lake City. How are you doing? Thank you. I'm doing so well, Rip. It's so nice to meet you and see you and get to talk to you. Yeah. Well, right back at you, Niki. Now you, I can't, I can't wait to talk to you about kind of your journey and how you've gotten to where you were to where you are now, because you used to be a engineer rocket scientist for the space shuttle. Is that correct? I know. Isn't it crazy? Yeah. So how does it in the world does somebody that is an engineer working on the space shuttle find their way to lifestyle medicine.
[2:22] Very good question. And it's funny, because I think about your story, too, with being a firefighter, and then, you know, going on this plant-based movement. Yeah, similar, where you, you get passionate about this lifestyle, and you get passionate about the ability for people to heal. deal. So I started out as a rocket scientist, basically, because I was good at math and science. And when I was in college, I was trying to figure out, well, what am I going to do with my life? What would I be good at? And I was always good at kind of engineering things. I was an inventor as a kid. I like to come up with new ideas and solve problems. And so engineering seemed like a decent fit for me. I actually was forced to choose my degree early on because I did the Air Force ROTC. I ended up not completing the ROTC program, but it kind of forced me to just decide. So once I decided mechanical engineering, then it was, okay, this is what I'm doing. And I actually really enjoyed the challenge of engineering. I liked that I was one of the only women in the hundred plus people in the class. Right. Um, and, and I think that I really, I really stayed with it because of the challenge. So the guys didn't give you a hard time.
[3:45] Well, I think, you know, honestly, as a woman, like there was a little bit where you could feel that, um, maybe they didn't really feel like you belonged as much. And so that just made me want to prove myself even more. Right. Um, so there was a little bit of that being one of the only, like, honestly, there were only like two or three out of us out of over a hundred people.
[4:07] I mean, it's very similar in firefighting. I mean, there's not many female firefighters. It's very much a masculine dominated profession.
[4:17] And the women that decided to go into it, um, they really have to prove themselves. And so there's a lot, a lot, a lot of pressure on them to, um, live up to, I would say an even higher standard than I set for themselves. So kudos to you for doing that. Well, um, you know, and it was fun. I, I think I enjoy the idea of, solving problems. And, and I, I mean, I do like math, I can't, I can't say I don't love math. So it was, you know, I got to take all the math classes and, and do all of that. And I did like engineering. But when I completed, so I did a bachelor's and a master's degree in mechanical engineering. And once I completed that, I went and worked for a rocket company who contracted through NASA.
[5:11] And, and I, I think that the job was was pretty good. I mean, I, you know, I was getting paid well, I was enjoying it. But ultimately, most of my job was sitting in a cubicle by myself. It was very isolating. And, and I prefer to work with people. And I like to socialize, and I like to work out problems with people. And it just wasn't that way for the most part. And then while I was working as an engineer was when I really started to learn more about the health benefits of a plant-based diet. I mean, I had transitioned to being a vegetarian and vegan at a young age in my teenage years. So I was already on board with eating plant foods for the most part. But it was really during that time as working as an engineer that I became really passionate about it. I mean, you probably know you end up going down the rabbit hole or you start just finding everything that's out there about plant-based nutrition.
[6:08] So for me, it was just getting really excited about that. Give me an idea of timelines here. So I have a, because I'm kind of foggy here. So you become an engineer, then you're working, you know, doing some space shuttle stuff with that company. Like, how old are you when this is going on? So I was in my 20s, so 20s to early 30s, working as an engineer. And so I worked as an engineer probably from 03 to 2010. Okay. And it's interesting that you mentioned the timeline because I read your book, The Engine 2 Diet, when it came out. I think it was 2009.
[6:55] It was 2009. February 25th. Good. And I remember that because that was the year before I left my job as an engineer to pursue this plant-based thing. Uh and that book your book really helped me it just like propelled me like got me even more passionate about the idea of using plant-based nutrition to help human health because i was already on board for the planet for the animals and all that but it was like wow this could actually help people and i think that we could help this movement go forward if people could see benefit for themselves, not just for the planet, not just for the animals, but if they can actually see their own health improve, that was a big thing. So it was in 2010 that I ended up leaving my career as an engineer because I wanted to be a part of this movement, which is now, you know, lifestyle medicine. But at the time it was, and I remember even learning when people started using plant-based, like that coined that term. I think it was T. Colin Campbell that coined that term. And I think I remember actually seeing you saying plant-based and I thought that's brilliant because then it takes away that stigma of vegan, but it's also very specific on that this isn't just about removing animal foods. It's about eating whole plant foods, right? Yeah, well, I definitely said plant-based and also plant strong.
[8:25] I'm intrigued. So when did you go to medical school? When did you sneak that in?
[8:31] Yeah, right. So yeah, I left my job in 2010. And started pretty, you know, within a year or so started the process of so I had to go back and do some prerequisites to be able to apply. So I had to go back and take like organic chemistry. And that took me about a year and a half to complete that. So I started medical school in 2013.
[8:55] Wow. And interestingly, in 2013 was when Dr. John John McDougall wrote The Starch Solution, and that came out. And then that, on top of your book, that was what really showed me this is what I want to do with my life. I want to be this kind of a doctor. I want to help people get well using plant-based nutrition. And being able to see that someone else was able to do it and be successful at it, that's – and I was already on that trajectory. Trajectory the whole reason I went to medical school was because I wanted to become a plant based doctor who helped people get well through nutrition now so having that mentality going into medical school did that help determine which medical school you went to knowing that all right I want to really specialize in lifestyle medicine nutrition and this medical school has zero hours of nutrition. So I'm not going there. Right. Most medical schools have zero nutrition. So, and the other thing that's funny about that is it's, it's really hard to get into medical school. So if one will take you, you go there.
[10:07] And so the, the medical school I ended up going to was just the one that's closest to me where I knew that I could, you know, be in state, not have to pay more money than it was already going to be paying. But the university of Utah is, is where where I ended up going. I only applied there. So it was really just location-based and money-based. But knowing that I was going to be getting a conventional education, right? And I wanted that though. I wanted to see what are doctors doing? How are they treating patients? Get that background. And then on top of that, I was seeking out opportunities to learn early on while in medical school, while in residency about plant-based nutrition. So I got to work with Dr. John McDougall, right? I got to intern at the True North Health Center in Santa Rosa. So seeking out those kinds of opportunities because I knew I wasn't going to be getting nutrition training in medical school. So did you get into many arguments with your professors in medical school? No, because you want to graduate. And I think.
[11:11] In fact, I did have one time where one of my supervising physicians asked me, is type two diabetes reversible? And I knew that she was trying to get me to say that it was not, that it was just manageable. But I already knew at that point that it was absolutely reversible. And I've proven it to myself over and over again, because I see patients all the time where we're able to reverse their diabetes completely, getting them down, not even into the pre-diabetes range, but into the normal range.
[11:48] So, things like that, where I think people have these preconceived notions, even very smart doctors who think that there is no way that this is something that you can manage without taking some kind of a medication. Like how how on earth would you do that but but i knew better so it you know i had to be a little bit careful honestly i couldn't go too much out on the limb but i did teach the residents i whenever i was assigned to teach something to the other residents i was always teaching about that so i taught about the reversibility of diabetes right are you so you're in salt lake city are you latter-day saint i am not nope i uh born and raised here so i know all about it but but no right gotcha the reason i ask is uh i've had some uh latter-day saints that have come to some of our immersion programs and uh and asking them you know why are you here this one couple said well Well, in the Book of Mormon, it basically talks about how you want to eat predominantly plant-based. And the only time you really want to eat meat is if it's absolutely of necessity because of the time of the year or something like that.
[13:08] And this particular young man who's this adventure athlete asked his father, why are we not eating this way? He didn't like his answer, his dad's answer, which he basically called BS on. And started down the rabbit hole. And then he and his wife came to one of our immersion programs, but I just found that to be kind of fascinating. Yeah. And actually there are other, you know, when we talk about a Latter-day Saint or Mormon, you know, there have been books written specifically about that topic, that it makes sense if you actually look at the Book of Mormon, that it does make sense to eat mostly plant foods if that's available to you. So there's a there's a book called The Word of Wisdom that talks about that. So I've had I have actually quite a few patients that are in Utah or not in Utah that are Latter-day Saints that that follow a plant based diet because of that. Right. So you're board certified now in family medicine and lifestyle medicine. How much do you enjoy your work now? Getting people healthy, not being an engineer anymore in a little cubicle.
[14:27] So do you like the direction you've gone in? Are you happy you did it? Oh, I love it. I mean, I'm talking to you today, Rip.
[14:39] I mean, really, I feel so lucky. I feel so grateful to be getting to do what I do every day. Not only do I get to meet with patients one-on-one and really get to know them and their stories and help them through this journey of becoming well, because as a doctor, when I was working, you know, as a medical student, as a resident, you don't tend to see that unless it's an acute thing. Like you have an infection, you take an antibiotic, you get better. But for these chronic lifestyle related diseases, it was what's the next medication we're going to put somebody on. Right. So it it's really I can see why doctors get burned out, because even in that short amount of time during my training, it was really hard to see people just getting worse over time. So the fact that I get to be on this journey with people and see them actually getting well, getting better, and then other people see them getting better. So then they're sharing it with their friends and family. And I get to see this, you know, this effect that's happening by just seeing one person at a time. And then on top of that, I get to do things like this, where I get to do these interviews and webinars and help spread the message and just be part of this movement. That's what I've tried.
[15:55] That's what I've wanted to do is to somehow be a part of this to help not only people live their healthiest lives, but also just that it's better for everything. It's better for the planet. It's better for the animals, right? It's just it's it's so good for so many things. Yeah, it certainly is. So as part of your training, you trained at True North Health Center with Alan Goldhammer and Dr. Clapper, I believe, when he was there.
[16:27] Incredible human beings, both of them. You also have trained with Anthony Lim and then the late Dr. John McDougall. I'd love for you to just talk for a sec. Like, what was it like training under John McDougal?
[16:47] Okay, I'm going to try not to get emotional because it's so new since he's passed.
[16:54] But I, again, I just feel so grateful that I had a chance to work with him in person. You know, back when he was doing his in-person medical programs in Santa Rosa, California, I had a chance to work with him as a medical student and to be able to see, not only what he did, you know, his presentations, but also he worked with the patients at that time where he was working one-on-one with patients and, you know, the things that he was talking to people about and telling them, I just, I soaked up all of that. And it was just, it was so inspiring to see someone who.
[17:34] Be able to help people in that way. And in a pretty short amount of time, too, you know, we're talking that these programs were 10 day programs, and you were seeing pretty significant improvements, people getting off insulin pumps, and, you know, people's arthritis finally starting to improve after years and years.
[17:51] So after those 10 days, getting to really see not only getting to follow Dr. John McDougall and getting to see what he does and how he works, but also seeing the many, many people be able to follow this way of eating, I mean, and then get better over time.
[18:10] You know, and his program was buffet style. The food was just there and you could eat as much as you wanted. I mean, people were going back for seconds and thirds and still seeing improvement, right? So, it was never about restriction. It was never about portion control. It was just eating the right kinds of foods, focusing on that. And people did wonderful. So it was just really great to see the kind of doctor that I wanted to be. So that, I mean, and that really, that 10 days that I got to spend with him as a medical student, really, that clinched what I wanted to do. That was what I wanted to be and what I wanted to do. And I couldn't wait. And I even remember asking him, I said, you know, I'm only in medical school now. Do I really need to finish all of residency? Couldn't I just do my intern year? And then, you know, and he said, you want to be able to be with the patient and actually treat the patient. You need to do all of it. He was trying to get me to do internal medicine because he, you know, he thought internal medicine was better than family medicine. And I said, okay, well, I'm still going to do family. But he thought it was really important to actually go through it to become a board certified physicians so that you had that respect and authority and people would listen to you by going through the entire program.
[19:33] How in the world as a medical student, did you find your way into one of John McDougall's 10 day programs? Well, you know, I left my career as an engineer. Yeah. Because I wanted to follow this path, I wanted to become a physician that could help people through plant-based nutrition. And so when I started medical school in 2013, I immediately started reaching out to some of these people that were already doing this kind of work. And so it was Dr. John McDougall. It was Dr. Neil Barnard. I tried to get on with him. I couldn't make my schedule work to actually work with him, but I wanted to in D.C. And then True North Health Center. I wanted to work with Dr. Clapper and Dr. Goldhammer, you know, Dr. Doug Lyle, Jeff Novick. And so I myself had to go and seek those opportunities early on. But for me, it was it was a benefit that I already knew that this was what I wanted to do when I was starting medical school. I knew I wasn't going to work in a typical family medicine office or in a hospital. I wanted this was the kind of work that I wanted to do. So I needed to get those opportunities. And so I just I searched around and found what I could and tried to squeeze it into my training. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Did you get to meet or spend any time with Mary McDougall? John's wife? Yeah, I did. Yep.
[20:58] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, those 10 days, I really got to know them, their whole, their whole family was there. You know, and then I was really fortunate that I got to, I kind of was able to keep, you know, working relationship with Dr. McDougall, where I would message him and ask him questions about my patients, like, I'm not sure what to do with this. Have you ever seen this specific condition get reversed? And you know, what have you done for this? So I was able to have that. And then I went to the Plantrition conference last year where he spoke and was able to see him again and meet with him again. So, yeah. So we have kind of bantered around getting patients off medications.
[21:47] Medications. The one professor that asked you at, I think it was at medical school, if diabetes is reversible or is it just, or is it manageable? And you said, well, you answered because you didn't want to get in trouble. No, it's manageable, but we all know that it's, it's in fact reversible. What about getting people off meds? Do you think she would have said that now once you're on these meds, you're, you're on these meds for life? Or, and I'd love for you to talk about anyway, medications, getting people off medications. How successful are you with getting people off of hypertension, diabetes, cholesterol? What's been your experience with that? D, as you call it on your website, de-prescribing medication. I love that term. Yeah. I love it. I love de-prescribing. I think that, It's one of those things that I've learned you have to do fairly early on, especially when someone is going from more of a standard American diet, very meat-heavy diet, dairy-heavy, you know, lots of processed foods to a whole food plant-based diet. They can see changes pretty quickly, and it can become dangerous because now you're being over-medicated.
[23:06] Uh, and that's one of the things that I did learn from Dr. McDougall was he would stop medications on day one, a lot of medications because of that danger, especially high blood pressure medications. Um, if you're taking medications for diabetes, it's helping with your blood sugars because we do see blood pressure and blood sugars improve pretty quickly in most people. So it's, it's important that when you're making those changes that you have a doctor who knows how to deprescribe you and and how quickly, because what I've found is I I'll have patients come to me, you know, through love life telehealth, where they will say, my blood sugars keep bottoming out, I'm just eating all these sugar pills to try to keep my blood sugars up. Uh you know i i don't know what to do and it's well as as a regular doctor you're not used to seeing somebody who's been diabetic for years and years and years suddenly get better right the blood sugars are plummeting uh and so we stopped for this particular patient i had to stop all of her insulin immediately because she was just bottoming out so quickly and she had a great endocrinologist you know someone who specializes in diabetes but they're just not used to seeing that. And so, I really like that our, you know, my specialty, the specialty of the other doctors that I work with is to help people through that transition. And a lot of times it is deprescribing.
[24:33] So, it is really rare for me to start a medication on someone or continue them on medications if they're following this way of eating and this lifestyle. Yeah. So it's very, very common that I'm stopping or decreasing medications fairly early on.
[24:54] I mean, how exciting is that for these patients that have been on some of these meds for years to then all of a sudden to be able to come off of them? And I would imagine that for many of these people, there must be all kinds of side effects when you're taking these medications that are really obnoxious. Yeah, absolutely. It seems to be so freeing for people because not only is it annoying to have to take a ton of medications every day, right? Just the act of having to take those. And like you said, the side effects.
[25:37] But it feels like a lack of control. Like your only control with your disease is to take these medications like your doctor has prescribed, and that's it. Whereas with me, it's, okay, now let's give you back that control. Instead of relying on medications, which are they really doing much for you anyway? You know, in some circumstances, they can do more harm than good.
[26:02] But what we work on is then, you know, what can we do to help you get better without the medications and getting that control back where you now can control what you eat and, you can control your disease by for a lot of people you can reverse these chronic lifestyle related diseases right you can prevent them you can certainly manage them and i see all the time people reversing these chronic lifestyle related diseases so i think that is really this freedom That people get where they feel like, okay, now it's not just about me showing up to the doctor and getting yet another prescription. But now I get to decide, I don't want to do that anymore. I'm, if you're willing to make that commitment, and make this change in your lifestyle. Now you can control that. And I think that that is probably what is feels very powerful for people to not feel like they're just on the sidelines of their health. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, you're there in the ballgame, right? Swinging away, getting after it. That must feel so incredible.
[27:14] So you said that you were kind of a vegetarian and then you got interested in this. I'm just wondering, when you decided, you know, Nicky Davis, I'm getting into the ballgame and I'm going to take my shot here. What happened to you when you went all in whole food plant-based what happened to your i don't know weight anything cholesterol did anything happen to you or not it did yeah so i uh uh i, Well, I guess now I'm probably 40, 35 or 40 pounds down from where my top was when I was eating lots of cheese and dairy, even as a vegetarian, because like I said, I went vegetarian at a young age. And although I did feel better not eating meat and poultry and fish, it was really the dairy that was a big issue and then the oils eventually.
[28:12] But I, I felt better. And then once I got rid of the dairy and the oil, that's when I really was able to get down to my ideal weight. So I lost the weight.
[28:26] It didn't take much time, it was really honestly, it was just following more of a McDougall type diet, right? Healthy healthy starches, healthy non starchy veggies and fruits, legumes.
[28:38] And so that allowed me to lose the weight. And then it's interesting, because when I worked with Dr. McDougall in 2013, as a medical student, during that 10 days, even though I was there to just shadow and be part of the health part of it, I was able to be almost a participant at the same time, because I was eating the food. They allowed us to get our labs before and after. And I would have been mid-30s at that time. And I was surprised my cholesterol was a little bit elevated when I checked it before. Now, I was vegan, 100% vegan, but I was definitely not whole food plant-based. And during those 10 days, my bad cholesterol, the LDL cholesterol, dropped by 20 points. So just in 10 days, going from more of a vegan diet to a whole food plant-based diet, it helped improve my cholesterol down into the normal range. So I definitely saw improvements in myself. And over that time, then, of course, I'm sharing it with my friends and my family and trying to get people on board before I could work as a doctor helping people. Yeah. No, I've been holding very, very similar programs to what Dr. McDougall has done. I started doing them in 2010 with Whole Food Market's sickest employees.
[30:00] And so we've had over probably 2,000 different people come through. So we have over 2,000 data points and our average drop in the LDL cholesterol in six days, well, in the beginning was seven days, we've shortened it to six, is 24 milligrams per deciliter. So your 20 is- So I was below average. Yeah, but remember you were kind of already vegan as well. Right. I mean, that's fantastic. That's amazing. And it's funny because it's not surprising either, because I see this all the time. That's the beauty of what I get to do. I get to see people seeing these huge improvements. Improvements in fact i had a doctor come to see me as a patient and she said i don't know you know i'm pretty healthy like her bmi was in the normal range she was very active she felt like she was eating a pretty healthy diet even though it still had some meat and fish and things in there and some dairy but she felt like it was a pretty healthy diet because she was you know not eating a lot of processed foods and she said i think my cholesterol is high probably just because of genetics, but I figured I'd try this and see.
[31:11] And after doing two weeks of whole food plant-based, her cholesterol plummeted, Right. So people sometimes will think like, there's just no way it could really help. But boy, even in people who think that they're doing a great job and, you know, they're very fit and they think that they're eating well, there's still that power of getting rid of those animal foods and focusing on
[31:36] whole plant foods that really can make a big difference.
[31:40] No, it is incredible. And what I have found is that, you know, just about everybody has a different set point like how how low let's say you're just eating perfectly whole food plant based you know some people their set point will be 90 milligrams per deciliter look at down below 100 some are 110 some are 150 some might be 180 i don't know about you but i have seen so many women in particular that have these hdls that are 70 80 90 which is going to make it almost impossible for to get their total cholesterol right down below 150 and i'm like don't worry about it this is why it's so important to actually know what's your hdl what's your ldl and then what's your triglycerides because triglycerides a lot of people have no idea one-fifth your triglycerides is what's added to your hdl and your ldl to get total cholesterol so you got to look at the totality of it yeah right and then also just remembering that cholesterol is it's a risk factor, right? Having high cholesterol is a risk factor.
[32:39] Having high cholesterol isn't the thing that kills you. It just makes it more likely that you could have issues with cardiovascular disease. So you've got to look at the whole picture too. It isn't enough to just single out one number and treat a number. You've got to look at everything because if your arteries are perfectly healthy, you don't have any plaque in there, any soft plaque, your inflammation is low, So, you know, then you're even if your cholesterol is a little higher than you'd like, it's not in that perfect heart attack proof range below 150 for the total.
[33:13] You know, you have to look at all of that because it does matter. All of those different factors matter. But is there a way that you can measure soft plaque?
[33:25] Well, you can do some blood markers where you can look at some of the, you know, markers that might come off of soft plaque. So there are certainly lab tests that you can do that'll give you a little bit of a better idea as to do you have any ongoing soft plaque, which ultimately is going to be inflamed. So you should have some higher inflammation markers. markers um and there are it looks like there are starting to become some maybe some tests that can start to measure soft plaque but right now for the most part it's the hardened calcified plaque that we can see very clearly on imaging and that's old right that's an old scar that's been there for a long time uh and so that usually is not something that gets better but that ability for your arteries to be able to dilate gets better over time as you improve the health of your arteries by eating a plant-based diet. The endothelial lining. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
[34:28] Let me ask you this because it is just the rage right now. And I asked just about every doctor that I've had on the show in the the last couple of months, but what's your opinion of Ozempic and Wegovy, these, these types of drugs?
[34:45] Yeah. Um, I personally don't prescribe them. Um, you know, I mean, sometimes I will have a patient that comes to me that's already on them, but, uh, I would not start someone on them because again, it's just, it's,
[35:00] it's masking the problem, the underlying root cause. And that's what I'm, that's what I'm focused on. How do we get down to what's actually causing this problem? You know, what, why are you having trouble with weight loss? Why are you having trouble with blood sugar? And let's get down to that, which is lifestyle related for the most part. I don't like to rely on medications to help treat things like that. When there's a very clear lifestyle component.
[35:31] Yeah. I think I heard, and it might've been an interview that you were having with somebody that with, with these drugs, you can, you're actually losing muscle mass, which is one of the things that you absolutely want to do everything to cherish and hold on to. Right. Right. Because it can raise your resting metabolic rate.
[35:56] And then also, obviously it It stifles your appetite. It's expensive as all get out. I'm sure that there's all kinds of side effects that we're just starting to learn about here now that we have, what is it, one in eight Americans that are now on these drugs? Right. I know.
[36:15] Well, it kind of goes back to, for a lot of people, they want the easy out, right? They want the magical cure, the golden ticket. It they and some people like to have their doctor just write that script and like here you go here's your fix this is what's going to fix you just take this every day and you'll be you'll be fine, it is it does take more effort to totally change your lifestyle right there's a lot that goes into that social implications traditions uh you know just what what do you eat every day and just changing that so it does take effort it's a lot more effort than just taking a pill every day, But you're fixing the problem instead of just taking a medication on top of that problem just getting worse. So I just personally don't, I just, I feel like if there's a way to reverse it through medicine.
[37:12] Changing the lifestyle problem that exists and improving that lifestyle, why wouldn't we do it that way? Why wouldn't we just get down to the root cause and fix that instead of just
[37:23] yet another medication that has, like you said, so many possible side effects? Yeah. Well, I think the fact of the matter is there's a lot of inertia that is there in the human race and most people People don't like change, but as you just said, this is the golden ticket. It's not, it's not, you know, whatever frou-frou thing. This is the golden ticket. It's the silver. No, it really is. It really is.
[37:55] What about thyroid health? I am stunned and amazed how many in particular women I come across. Us, it seemed to be hyper or hypo, you know, have these hyperthyroidism or, I mean, is this something that you're seeing with your patients? It's very common. Yeah. Having low thyroid or hypothyroid is very, very common. Yeah. And it's usually autoimmune related. So you have your own cells attacking your thyroid and just, it just doesn't work as well. So then you end up having to take medications for it.
[38:31] Very, very, very common. Yeah. And do you feel like, is this, do you know, is this kind of a lifestyle created autoimmune disorder or no, no, no idea?
[38:45] I think that there is something to that. I think that it is possible. Absolutely. And I know that there have been a lot of theories out there related to that because you know you think if you're exposed to if you're exposed to cells that are very similar to your your own thyroid cells.
[39:08] But it's foreign does your body make antibodies to that so for instance if you're eating animal foods that could possibly have and it sounds gross but some thyroid parts that are similar to our own thyroid, by being exposed to that, could that then cause your body to react and cause antibodies that are close enough to your own thyroid that they would attack your thyroid? So there is the possibility of that. You know, there's no proof of that. It's certainly just a theory.
[39:40] But I will say, in my patients who have low thyroid or hypothyroidism.
[39:47] Most people still need to take medications no matter how great their lifestyle is. They're going to need some thyroid support. But I noticed that people who go plant-based eventually need less medication over time. So maybe they started out with taking levothyroxine, which is a very common medication to take for low thyroid. 100 micrograms a day is pretty typical. And then being able to decrease it down to maybe 25. five. And I see that actually, not only initially as they start making those changes, but even over years, if they're consistent with eating a really healthy plant-based diet over time, they may continue to see benefit and be able to decrease their medications over years.
[40:32] Would you say most of your patients that you're seeing are men or women?
[40:38] Mostly women but honestly women are usually more often you know they are more likely to see medical care anyway so women tend to go seek out medical care for themselves more than men do and then i don't know if it's because i'm a woman that i end up seeing more women but i certainly do see men as well it's just probably three quarters of my patient panel is women yeah and And you're currently working with Love Life Telehealth, correct? And when did that transition happen and how has that been for you? Yeah, so I got really lucky. I, you know, I finished my family medicine residency program in 2020. So right in the middle of the pandemic. And I was before I graduated looking for, okay, what kind of opportunities are out there for a doctor like me who wants to do this? You know, do I just need to start my own thing, my own business? Or are there places where I can work as more like a lifestyle medicine type physician. And at the time, and I know this was only four years ago, but at the time, there weren't as many opportunities as there are even today for lifestyle medicine providers.
[41:58] So I was looking around and, and I actually I was on When I was at True North, working as an intern, I was on Chef AJ's YouTube show, showing her kind of what I was eating and my experience there and everything. And I can interrupt you for a second. Yeah. You're a regular on Chef AJ's show. Like, was it every, the first of every month? First of every month.
[42:29] Incredible. And what do you, are you usually making a dish or talking about thyroidism? What is it? Right. It's, it's kind of all the above, whatever I want to do.
[42:38] So sometimes it's educational. Sometimes it's Q and a, a lot of times I am cooking. Um, so it's fun to be able to, to cook and share recipes. I try to share recipes that I personally make that are really easy. Uh, so, so yeah, so I, and you can, do you consider yourself a chef or a, you love to cook? I do like to cook, but, uh, and I do enjoy making more complicated recipes sometimes, but I also, when I cook, it's usually making really simple things like throwing a bunch of things into the instant pot. Um, you know, just having some rice and cauliflower together. Uh, so nothing too complicated because I'm busy, you know, I've, I've got a little kid at home and, um, and then I'm doing this all the time. So I try to keep things really simple. And so when I'm cooking on her show, it's usually showing that it can be simple and delicious.
[43:35] Simple is good for sure. I made the most incredible stir fry last night. Oh my gosh. We'll, we'll get to it a little bit later. So, so I, we totally diverted because it wasn't really my fault, but if I'm going to bring you back, you were talking about how you found love life and you were on chef AG, I think, and then something happened. Yeah. So I was, so, you know, she started this daily show back in March of 2020. I was the very first show she had. So we were just trying it out. Yeah. Wow. And I was at true North and I said, Hey, I'm at True North right now. I think it'd be really fun for you for me to talk about my experience and show you kind of what I'm doing here. And she's like, Yeah, I think we could make that happen. And so then we did it like very late at night, because she was struggling to get everything working correctly. And it was like 10 o'clock. And she said, Is it too late? Can we go live?
[44:25] Let's do it. I was like, I'm in my pajamas. But yes, let's try it. And it worked. It was great. And so then since then, she started doing the daily show. Well, so I think within a week, she had Dr. Lori Marbus on her show, which I know you've actually had on your podcast before, too.
[44:43] But Dr. Marbus was talking about this new Plant Based Telehealth platform where you could meet with a plant based doctor. And I was like, Oh, this is it. This is what I want to do. So I reached out to them immediately. So I just because Chef AJ started doing this show, I was watching her show. And so I just happened to see Dr. Marbus do that. I think her show was was maybe in April of 2020. So that's when I first learned about Plant-Based Telehealth, which is now has been acquired and is now called love.life/ telehealth.
[45:15] But so, so yeah, so I reached out to them and I said, Hey, I'm graduating soon from residency. I really want to work as a doctor with you guys. And they were like, hold on. We just started. We're not ready to take on new doctors yet. We'll keep you in mind. And then I was just the squeaky wheel, right? I just kept writing them. Come on, let me in, let me in, let me in. So eventually when they were ready to bring on more doctors, I was able to start with them in 2021.
[45:38] So I've been with them for three years now and I love it. Wow. And how does it feel? Cause I.
[45:45] You're not actually seeing people like in a doctor's office, right? Everything is kind of over a screen.
[45:53] Right. How, how does that feel? Did you, did you ever have, did you ever see people in person or is this the kind of medicine that you've been practicing since you kind of got out? Right. Got out. I love that. Cause it was, it felt like getting out of residency, see, like you're in prison. But yeah, when I got out, I, I immediately started working in telehealth. So I wasn't seeing patients in person. But honestly, it's because lifestyle medicine is kind of a niche still. And we, you know, as all the doctors that I work with now, we we want to make it accessible to everyone around the country and around the world. And so that is what we're able to do by doing telehealth is now we're licensed, you know, we have doctors licensed in all 50 states and DC, you can see us if you're international. So now we bring lifestyle medicine to anyone anywhere. And you just can't do that when you know, I mean, it would be great to see people in person here in Salt Lake City, Utah. But then I'm just only seeing people who are local versus I'm licensed in 12 states. So I can see people all over the country. Yeah, what are those brings that access what states are you uh do you do you have yeah okay um ready alabama out alabama um arizona california colorado louise no not louisiana anymore florida uh.
[47:21] South Dakota, North Dakota, Oregon, Washington, Utah, Texas, Texas, and now Massachusetts is a new one. That was almost alphabetical order. I know. Normally I can do it alphabetical, but I think I got caught up because I've lost a few licenses here. Not lost them, but just decided to not continue with them.
[47:43] So I'm trying to remember my current licenses. Get it. So in kind of doing my research on you, Niki, I mean, you love the outdoors. You love adventure, skiing, rafting, snowboarding. I mean, is that just something that was instilled with you when you were growing up in your family?
[48:10] Well, no, actually. My family was not very outdoorsy. So it was when I got to go with friends whose families were that I was very excited about being in the outdoors and camping and hiking. But we didn't do a ton of that as a kid. And in fact, I didn't even learn to ski until I was in middle school, even though I live in Utah, where we have the best skiing, the best powder. But because we had an after school program that I signed up for. But it was pretty quick after that, that once I learned to ski, then I was teaching skiing, and then I was learning how to snowboard, and then I was teaching snowboarding. When I was in college, instead of doing an engineering internship, I worked as a river guide, and I'm so glad I did. I loved it. But yes, I love the outdoors. I love being in nature. I just, I love all of that. And I hear not too long ago, you were schooling Joel Fuhrman down the slope somewhere. Yes. How great is that to get to meet Joel Fuhrman on the slopes? Where'd you guys go skiing? Uh, so we went to, where did we end up going? Snow Basin, I think. Um.
[49:24] Yeah, now I'm trying to remember because I've been to so many different places recently. Yeah, but oh, we had so much fun. It was it was a blast. But it's interesting in getting to talk to him when he heard my story about how I became a doctor and to do lifestyle medicine. He said, you're the only other one that I've met that's similar to me, because I guess for him, it was the same thing. Instead of what most of the lifestyle medicine providers their story is well i worked as you know an emergency medicine doctor or a family doctor internal medicine whatever they did and then i found out about this plant-based thing even whether it's through a patient that was doing it and got getting better or they just found it on their own um but to have it be that that's what you wanted to do initially and then go to medical school for that that's what he and i both did was we knew before
[50:14] going to medical school that this is the kind of doctoring that we wanted to do. And so he said, yeah, that's, that's different because I haven't met anyone else that's done that. No. Yeah. I had him on the podcast not too long ago. And he mentioned that exactly that he knew before he knew before he went to medical school, that nutrition was what he wanted to specialize in. And yeah. So hearing, I made that connection, but you actually verbalized it. But who's your hero in life?
[50:49] Well, okay, the first name that popped in my head is Dr. John McDougall. You know, of course, I have other heroes in my life. My dad, who passed away last year, was a hero of mine as well and just taught me the importance of living life to the fullest. He he lived to be 92 and he lived his entire life like he was in his 20s he was always looking for adventures and I think that that even though we weren't a really outdoorsy family that kind of sense of adventure and trying new things I mean he got us on unicycles and stilts and you know just trying all these crazy things and it was just it was fun so I would say my dad and then And as far as just career professionally, Dr. McDougall has been probably my biggest inspiration.
[51:40] Yeah. So if I was to... See you tomorrow. And I had a unicycle. Could you ride that unicycle? Yeah, I could. Yeah. Rip, I rode my unicycle for the talent show in middle school, even though I was horrible shy. I mean, I was so, so shy. And no one could believe that I was up there doing that. They thought this girl that just sits in the back of the class and doesn't talk to anybody is up on stage doing and it was the walk like an Egyptian. You know, I was doing this like walk like an Egyptian thing on my cycle.
[52:16] So, yeah, I could I could do it. Wow. That that is so wild to hear, because I, too, wrote a unicycle in my middle school talent show. And no way, sixth, seventh and eighth grade. And every year I did something different. One year I went downstairs from the stage. One year I had a guy throwing a football to me. one year I was on there juggling. And then one year bouncing a basketball on the unicycle, staying still going backwards. Yeah. So wow. That's wild. That's wild. That's hilarious. Now I, yeah, I think that that is amazing. What a fun connection.
[52:55] I've never met anyone else who wrote a unicycle in the middle school talent show. Yeah. And then I eventually progressed to where I got a six foot unicycle and I would ride that in parades.
[53:06] Yeah, well, we did that. So because my dad taught all of us kids, so myself, my brother and my sister all learned how to ride unicycles along with my dad. So in our neighborhood, we had like a 4th of July parade and we would all ride our unicycles, get them all decorated and ride those through our neighborhood parade. Yeah. Can you remember, how did you learn to ride the unicycle? Uh, so indoors to start, we would just hold along the wall and just try to get as far as you can, letting go here and there and just getting comfortable with it. And then once you got comfortable with that, my dad would sometimes use like a cane or a stick to kind of hold himself up when he was, once he was on and then try to go, you know, and stay up that way. But it was just, I mean, honestly, it's just a lot of practice, right? You're just, you're falling a lot. You got to learn to like keep your weight forward, uh, as you know, uh, but yeah, just starting indoors and then slowly working your way outside. I've got so many pictures of us doing all sorts of fun, crazy stuff like that. I love it. I, uh, my, my parents parked the cars like, you know, three feet apart from each other. And then I'd use those, you know, just to go down, you know, whatever it was, 12 feet. and I'd turn around and come back and just continue to do that until I got it. But it never like popped out from underneath you and hit the side of the car?
[54:30] Oh, it would pop out a jillion times. But I think the cars were close enough to where it didn't cause any major dings.
[54:41] What is one of your favorite breakfasts? What do you love eating for breakfast? I would say hash browns is probably my favorite. And in fact, the best hash browns I've ever had are hash browns that I make myself. So I will either shred or spiralize potatoes and then put them in like a panini press and get them all crunchy that way. Oh, it's the best thing you've ever had in your life. You know, and then I add stuff on there like beans and tomatoes and, you know, some shredded lettuce and some avocado. And it's delicious. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, I, so know that I went through a lot of your Instagram feed and I did notice that you're a big fan of not only the Rips Big Bowl cereal.
[55:30] But you also, you also love the PLANTSTRONG pancake and waffle mixes. Yes. Yes, I do. In fact, I had those yesterday.
[55:40] And, and I think I saw that you guys use the same, I have this tiny little mini waffle maker. I think I saw you using that. Yeah. I got it like at Target for 10 bucks or something and it makes the cutest little tiny waffles and it's pretty nonstick already. So you don't have to add any oil or Pam or anything to it. Uh, but that's what I use is the PLANTSTRONG waffle mix.
[56:01] And my son and I make those all the time. We love them. And then yes, the big bowl. And then I love your granolas too, because they're oil-free, which for a long time, it was impossible to find granola that was oil-free or honey-free, you know yeah um so yeah i love all the granolas too yeah um no i'll get back to what i was saying earlier last night i made a stir fry and just you know i did i did onions i did mushrooms i did bell peppers i did tempeh i did tofu uh broccolini um and then what i did at the very very end after everything was just the way i wanted it and i i did the onions first and i I sauteed them just how I wanted them, put them into a bowl. Then I did the carrots. Then I did carrots and the broccolini. I like my carrots soft. So I did those separately, got those to where I wanted them, did a lot of water in there to kind of like steam them to get them cooked, then put that into a bowl. And then I did the mushrooms separately. And then I did everything separately, put it all together, cooked.
[57:04] And then I put in, have you ever tried our secret simmer sauces? We have a peanut curry.
[57:11] You take two of these little guys, put them in a, you know, a one and a half cup of one and a half cups of water, whisk it. And it is, it was incredible. I am so excited to try it because, uh, so I do a potluck here in Salt Lake City, a whole food plant-based potluck. And one of the women that comes brought me the peanut curry packet to try. So I haven't tried it yet. So I'm really excited to try that. So I will, I mean, you're making me hungry because it's lunchtime here in Salt Lake City. So I'm like, okay, I'm already thinking about, I need to make the stir fry today. Oh, yeah. You love traveling. Tell me, where's the latest place that you've traveled that you just were like, ah, I love it here.
[57:57] Well, I've been really lucky to do a lot of traveling this year. I, so I did my first ever retreat, uh, where I took people with me to Belize and that was fantastic. Uh, the food was amazing. We did lots of adventuring, snorkeling, hiking to waterfalls, jumping into waterfalls. It was so much fun. um and then i went to italy uh i so in college i did a study abroad in france for a year i went to an engineering school there and we did a reunion a 25 year reunion uh this year so we all met up in italy in rome and i also went through the cinque terra i don't know if you've ever been there but that's like one of my very favorite areas of italy it's these five little fishing villages along the coast that you can hike between actually.
[58:49] But yeah, so those are my favorite trips so far this year. And then I'm going to be doing another retreat coming up in October in Southern Utah. So, you know, I live in Salt Lake City and my mom and her husband live down in St. George, Utah, which is Southern Utah near Zion National Park. And so I'm going to be doing a Southern Utah women's plant-based retreat down there this October and I only have one spot left. So maybe somebody will grab it. Yes. Yes. Have you ever been to the narrows in Zion national park? Yeah. Isn't that incredible? I've never been there, but I want to go. I just, I just had a friend, he came back and he showed me photos. I'm like, I want to go. And I want to do the 27 miles. I think it was. Yeah. It's other worldly. You feel like you're on some other planet. It's, it's incredible. Southern Utah is just gorgeous. And it's, I feel so lucky that I, you know, I live in Salt Lake, which is a bigger city, but that I can drive pretty easily down and seeing all these red rocks blocks down South. You know, we just, it's beautiful down there. Bryce Canyon, you know, Zion Canyon is just gorgeous. And then Snow Canyon is a state park that's near there. That's really beautiful. Do you think, have you, when was the last time you went to Sprouts for $5 Wednesday sushi night?
[1:00:14] I do that all the time. Yeah. It's great. Yeah. Is that a national thing or just in salt lakes? I think it must be. I think it must be because I've heard of other people doing it, going to Sprouts and other places too. So, sushi, I got to say, is probably one of the easiest ways to eat out as somebody who wants to stick to whole food plant-based because you're getting, it's rice and veggies, right? And no oil, no animal products. You can always get veggie sushi at a sushi restaurant. But I love Sprouts because on those days, they they have really inexpensive sushi and you can fill up on sushi oh yeah oh yeah uh if today was wednesday i would go buy sprouts and get some at today's thursday so i won't have to wait you gotta wait you gotta wait yeah i gotta wait but it might be maybe it's thursdays where you are, okay i'll check yeah how how much how much do you love your little dog.
[1:01:14] Oh, she's the best. What's, what's, I love that. I love that. You know, all these little details about me. So nice. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. What is, what is, what's her name? Her name's Charlie. Oh. And, uh, she was actually a rescue from Texas. I don't know if you knew that. I did not know. I rescued her from the streets of Texas. Um, I don't know where in Texas, but somewhere, uh, but yeah, she was a street dog. And there was this nonprofit organization that goes around because I guess in Texas, it's unfortunately there are a lot of high kill shelters. They just don't have enough room for the animals. And so they end up having to euthanize them. So this nonprofit goes to these animal shelters that are overwhelmed and they then take those animals, put them in foster homes and then find homes for them in other states. So she came to me on a semi truck. So they take this huge semi truck that was donated to them and they go all the way up to Washington. And so Utah is along that route from Texas and they stop into this little tiny town in Utah where I went in the middle of the night to go pick her up. But yeah, and they do that like every two weeks they'll take the dogs out of Texas and find them homes. Wow. That's so, that's so wonderful. When was the last time you went forest bathing? Yeah.
[1:02:40] Uh, two days ago. And for the listeners that have no idea what forest bathing is, is that where you like get naked and you walk through the woods or what do you do? Yeah, it is.
[1:02:54] You had me, you had me fooled. Didn't you know that I was also an actress in a previous life? Really though I was, I was on the, um, the Price is Right. I got on the Price is Right. I got the wheel. Yeah. But anyway, that's for another day. Okay. All right. But forest bathing, no. Honestly, all it means is that you're in the forest and you're just enjoying nature, which seems silly, but a lot of us don't get that all the time. It used to be that humans were in nature all the time, but now we're in little square buildings all the time. So forest bathing generally is just getting out into nature. So if you're going on a hike, you're forest bathing, right? You're getting out into nature. Now, you can also go a step further where you can be more mindful while you're out in nature and just noticing things. Okay, what does that tree feel like? What does it smell like? You know, what am I noticing? What animals am I seeing? You know, what kind of movement am I seeing? The trees are moving. The water is moving. So just kind of noticing your surroundings and just being enveloped in that. I feel like for me, getting out into nature really helps me just feel, I don't know, grounded and peaceful.
[1:04:13] And, you know, I'm busy. I know, I'm sure you're extremely busy too. But as somebody who's really busy, even though I'm very passionate about it, I still need that time to myself. And getting out into nature helps me feel better. And so there are other countries where doctors will prescribe nature therapy or forest bathing to their patients to get them out and to get that, you know, immersing themselves in nature because it is really good for our mental health. No, you know, hearing you say all that.
[1:04:48] I just have to tell you that yesterday morning, my wife and I, we, our backyard opens up to maybe 30,000 acres of green space. And there's this amazing Creek that is like half a mile away. And so one of our favorite things in the world to do when the water's high is we put on just our bathing suits and then socks and running shoes and goggles. And then we run down there and then there's stretches of a quarter mile where you can just swim in the water. And so you swim, then you get out and you run and then you swim and you run, you swim and you run for like an hour and a half, two hours. So it literally is forest bathing.
[1:05:30] I mean, I feel like maybe you've done more forest bathing than I have because you've actually been in a swimsuit in the forest. I love that. I, I, I loved it too.
[1:05:45] Uh, Niki, I can't even tell you how excited I am to see you August 16th to the 18th in Black Mountain, North Carolina as part of Plantstock. You're going to be there with some of the Love Life Telehealth team, correct? I am. I am. So I am so excited to get to meet you in person, Rip, and then the rest of your family and all the other amazing speakers that are going to be there. I'm just thrilled to just get to be a part of that. And then hopefully whoever else is going to be showing up there,
[1:06:17] then come and say hi to me. So this is what you and I are going to do. As part of the talent show on the last night, you and I are going to ride the unicycle. Wait, do you have more than one? More than one unicycle? Yes, because I don't know that I can bring mine on a plane. We'll figure it out we'll we'll okay we'll make it work so i'm gonna have to practice a little bit so i'm ready practice up for sure yes uh Niki will you give me a PLANTSTRONG fist bump on the way out, Boom. Hey, that was awesome. See you soon. Thank you.
[1:06:56] Wow. If nothing else, you should all definitely register for Plantstock, just so you can see Niki and I in action on our unicycles. Thank you so much, Niki, for heeding the call to help others achieve optimal health on a whole food plant-based diet. If you want to learn more about Dr. Davis and the states where she is licensed to practice, visit love.life/telehealth or visit her website, drnikidavis.com, and I'll provide a clickable link to both of these in today's show notes. Until next week, thanks for listening and sharing. For all those who may benefit, we appreciate all of your support. And as always, keep it PLANTSTRONG.
[1:07:47] Music.
[1:08:14] An episode. As always, this and every episode is dedicated to my parents, Dr. Caldwell B. Esselstyn Jr. And Anne Crile Esselstyn. Thanks so much for listening.
