#195: Kathy Stevens from Catskill Animal Sanctuary - Over Twenty Years of Love Spoken Here
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Kathy Stevens, Founder of Catskill Animal Sanctuary
Kathy Stevens founded the Catskill Animal Sanctuary in 2001 with 80 acres of land that she turned from a virtual trash heap into an idyllic sanctuary where rescued, abused, and forgotten animals can live their final years filled with the love, care, and respect they so richly deserve.
In her work and in her exquisitely written books, Kathy describes the essence and personalities of these animals – and today, she shares some of the most poignant stories from those souls she has had the privilege of caring for through the years.
Every animal has a rich emotional life and they want to live. Like humans, they have pain and fear, but can also learn to trust with the right interactions.
Thank goodness for humans like Kathy Stevens and places like Catskill Animal Sanctuary who bring love and care to animals, while also making the world a better place for all of us.
Episode Highlights
11:05 When and how did she get the property to start Catskill Animal Sanctuary?
17:02 How does she acquire her sanctuary animals?
22:25 Animals of the stories, starting with Rambo the sheep
37:30 Polly, the cockfighting rooster
41:35 Buddy, the Blind Horse
48:25 What Kathy knows for sure about all of her animals
51:20 Dino, the only survivor of a fire that killed 22 other horses
54:10 The special pig/human relationship
58:30 Mealtime is the magical time at Catskill Animal Sanctuary
1:01:10 How has our current climate affected sanctuaries?
1:05:10 What makes her most proud about her work?
1:06:50 How does she say, “hello” or welcome a new animal to the sanctuary?
1:09:45 How do they say, “goodbye” to these precious animals?
"I believe that in all of us is a good and pure knowing that beneath the surface of things, beneath gender and skin color, religion and nationality, social class and sexual preference, and yes, beneath species, we are all the same. This book is dedicated with love and hope to that good and pure knowing in you."
Episode Resources
Order Where the Blind Horse Sings
Catskill Animal Sanctuary Website and Resources - including public tours and donation information
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Full YouTube Transcript
Rip Esselstyn:
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Kathy Stevens:
There's a lot I don't know, but what I know for sure is that every animal is an individual. Every animal wants her life or his life as much as I want mine. Every animal has a rich emotional life. You can't name an emotion that we possess that an animal doesn't. And finally, pain and suffering feel no differently to a chicken than they do to a child.
Rip Esselstyn:
I'm Rip Esselstyn. Welcome to the PlantStrong podcast. The mission at PlantStrong is to further the advancement of all things within the plant-based movement. We advocate for the scientifically proven benefits of plant-based living and envision a world that universally understands, promotes and prescribes plants as a solution to empowering your health, enhancing your performance, restoring the environment, and becoming better guardians to the animals we share this planet with. We welcome you wherever you are on your PlantStrong journey. I hope that you enjoy the show.
Hello, my PlantStrong family. I don't know about all of you, but I grew up in a house and an environment where we had lots of animals all the time. We had dogs, cats. We had pet pigs, fish, doves, ducks. We even at one point had a pet alligator, believe it or not. I bring that up because I have always had a soft spot in my heart for animals. I love animals. I say that because I have a beautiful conversation for you today with one of the most compassionate, wonderful people that I have met in a long time. Her name is Kathy Stevens. She founded the Catskill Animal Sanctuary in 2001 with 80 acres of land that she turned from a virtual trash heap into an idyllic sanctuary where rescued, abused, and forgotten animals can live their final lives filled with love, care, and the respect that they also richly deserve.
In her work and in her exquisitely written books, Kathy describes the essence and personalities of these animals. In my conversation with Kathy today, she shares some of the most poignant stories from those souls that she has had the privilege of caring for throughout the years. In addition to her work as caretaker to these animals, Kathy and her team are also educators who believe that when they can show people the depth of these animals' personalities it really can profoundly change people for the better. They take that mission to heart each day at the sanctuary. It is hard work, but also the flip side of that is it is so rewarding when they know that they can change the life of an animal and a human at the same time. Please enjoy these wonderful stories today from my very special guest, Kathy Stevens. Kathy.
Kathy Stevens:
Rip.
Rip Esselstyn:
Welcome to the PlantStrong podcast.
Kathy Stevens:
Thanks for having me.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh, man, this is going to be a delightful pleasure for me. You and your incredible Catskill Animal Sanctuary are just about a hop skipping a jump from the Esselstyn Family Farm in Claverack, New York.
Kathy Stevens:
I know it. And now that we're talking, I need to make a point to go. I've been such a fan of you, your work, your dad's work, your mom's books. I just ordered the new cookbook.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh, yeah.
Kathy Stevens:
It's about time for me to get on up there.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh, well, I can tell you right now, me and my family will be sledding on down to your place this summer when we're there for about two weeks.
Kathy Stevens:
Fabulous.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. I can't wait to visit the property and all the amazing things you have going on. I want to start by talking a little bit about you. You grew up in Virginia on a farm, if I'm not mistaken, correct?
Kathy Stevens:
Yep. On a horse farm.
Rip Esselstyn:
On a horse farm. You had a sheep named Babette who wore diapers in your house.
Kathy Stevens:
Yes, we did. Yes, we did.
Rip Esselstyn:
And a borough named Linda and a magical menagerie of animals. Do you think that you were destined to have a animal sanctuary when you look back on it now, what, 21, 22 years after starting this crazy thing?
Kathy Stevens:
Maybe. Because of that childhood experience, I always had the awareness that animals are so much more than most people have the opportunity to know. We know that about our dogs and cats. People know that they have rich individual lives and that they have unique personalities, but we don't live in a world that wants us to know that about other animals. But because of my upbringing, I knew that. Maybe it was destiny. It was certainly a way to bring together my love for animals and the good part of my childhood experiences with my passion for teaching and learning, having also been in my 20s and early 30s a high school English teacher.
Rip Esselstyn:
Now, did you have brothers and sisters growing up?
Kathy Stevens:
I did. I did. I still do. I adore them. I have a sister who had the kids for all of us, she has four kids. Love my nieces and nephew. My brother is still in Virginia, he's the youngest.
Rip Esselstyn:
Do you feel like growing up in that household, or I should say that horse farm of yours, that you had this affinity for the animals? Did they also have that, or was that unique to you, that big heart?
Kathy Stevens:
It was more unique to me. My brother, I would say, had an affinity for the outdoors in general, but not necessarily for animals in particular. My sister was the quintessential sorority sister, when you think of personality type, effervescent with a million friends and 29,000 things going on. So, no, I was really the one who was most deeply connected by far to the animals.
Rip Esselstyn:
You mentioned in your book, Where the Blind Horse Sings... Which I got to tell you, I read it this morning. By the end I was just a ball of tears. Holy toledo, it was incredible. You talk about how you were drawn to the oddball kids and those that maybe had down syndrome. I think that just speaks to the size of your heart and your empathetic nature, which I really admire and love about you. That's why I say it feels like you've been on this path. I've got three children, and they're all so incredibly uniquely different and wonderful, but the youngest, as long as she's been on this planet, has just had this affection and affinity for all living creatures and doesn't want to harm a toad, a frog, a slug. She'll have slugs going all up and down her arms, she loves them. It makes me think that maybe that's exactly how you were.
Kathy Stevens:
Kind of.
Rip Esselstyn:
Maybe without the slug.
Kathy Stevens:
Kind of. Yeah, I don't know. I've never encountered a slug when I was little. I do wrestle with, because I do kill mosquitoes and ticks, and every now and then I think, well, is that okay? But yeah, I've been that way my whole life.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. You started the Catskill Animal Sanctuary in 2001. Will you tell us a little bit about the background about how you acquired this property?
Kathy Stevens:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
You got it from Charlie, this crazy smoker.
Kathy Stevens:
Charlie Tiano. Held one cigarette in his mouth to light the other one, just like that. Oh, he must have gone through four packs a day, Charlie Tiano. There were two brothers, the Tiano brothers. The one, Frank, is still alive today. I think he's 87 and lives right at the top of our property. The two brothers couldn't have been more different. I adore the family, so I don't want to say too much, but Charlie was a little bit of a wild man and had some financial troubles. The farm had originally been a standard bred training farm, but it had run into trouble. There were all kinds of things going on on that property that shouldn't have been. One day when Frank Senior is gone, I will tell the whole story.
In the meantime, we found this property. To say that it was run down is quite an understatement. The standard bred training operation had folded some years earlier, and Charlie had allowed his friends to use it as a junkyard to put their dying vehicles and their refrigerators and their box springs.He was also several years back on taxes and was about to lose the property. We got it for a song and a dance. But man, was it in rough shape. There was a mountain of tires and there were 20 some dead vehicles and a whole hill. Literally, he built the driveway on discarded refuge. When the pile got too big, he'd just throw kerosene on the hill and light everything. He was one of those people, absolutely good-hearted, but one of those people.
We bought a farm in need of rescue. There was an open septic tank. The buildings had collapsed, and yet we could afford it. At the time it was 80. We've since bought smaller contiguous pieces. 80 acres in the Hudson Valley was way beyond our reach financially. We bought this and just brought it back one building, one fence, one road, one pond at a time as funds came in.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow. Incredible.
Kathy Stevens:
It was an adventure, to say the least.
Rip Esselstyn:
I can't imagine all the help that you must have had getting that thing off the ground.
Kathy Stevens:
It was a lot. In those days, it was two decades ago when you could just eagerly welcome volunteers. We had huge community groups volunteering. We also had AmeriCorps, the government program, that would send teams every summer to stay in one of our houses and spend the entire summer. We had just at the time a skeleton staff, just a handful of people. Most of us were volunteers. That's how we did it. And we're still doing it. It never ends, really.
Rip Esselstyn:
Has the mission from when you started this in 2001, has it changed? Has it evolved? Is it pretty much the same?
Kathy Stevens:
Well, it's interesting. I like that question. I would say, the mission hasn't changed. It was A, to rescue as many farm animals as our capacity allows and to give them lifelong sanctuary, and B, to empower humanity on its journey to veganism. I wouldn't say it's changed. Although, it might need a refresh. We're starting to talk about that in our planning process. It has certainly grown more urgent as the planet teeters on the brink of collapse.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. What are the different species of farmed animals that you support?
Kathy Stevens:
Horses, donkeys, cows, pigs, goats, sheep, ducks, chicken, turkeys, geese, pig. Did I say pigs? Pigs. If I name them twice, I should, because they are larger than life. Good Lord.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. I want to talk about that. You don't have an acronym for the 12? Is there no known acronym?
Kathy Stevens:
No, but what a great idea.
Rip Esselstyn:
I think we should think of an acronym for that.
Kathy Stevens:
Are there any vowels? That is a good idea.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, good. You said you acquired the initial property of 80 acres, and now there's, what, 110, if I'm not mistaken?
Kathy Stevens:
150. 150 now.
Rip Esselstyn:
150? Holy toledo. I want to ask you this question because in one of your books you say that you always get this question from children and you're always surprised, but then you're like, well, why would they know? So how do you get your animals?
Kathy Stevens:
Oh, yeah. As many ways as you could possibly make up. A lot of them come from industry. A factory farm is downsizing and it's going to gas a bunch of birds or crush or do whatever they do, grind them up. A sanctuary will intervene and collectively try to place as many as possible. Because we're near Manhattan, and there are close to 80 live markets in Brooklyn and Queens, we get a lot of escapees from live markets. We take a huge number of animals from hoarding situations. Every now and then there's someone who has passed away and their family doesn't have the capacity or the desire or the means to take care of an animal. But in terms of number, most come from industry, from hoarders. And then there's a handful that comes from what we call random acts of callousness, a pig left in a stall at a road stop, a chicken stuffed in a mailbox, a turkey tied to a tree in Central Park, that kind of category things. And then of course, we work with police on cruelty cases.
Rip Esselstyn:
When you started Catskill Animal Sanctuary in 2001, I'm sure that you were just one of maybe a handful or two handfuls. Now, in 2021, there's probably hundreds. What separates you from the herd?
Kathy Stevens:
Well, you're right. There was Farm Sanctuary back then, the grandmother of all sanctuaries. I know you had Jean on. I listened to that conversation recently. I think what differentiates us are a few things. One is that we have this phenomenon that was originally small. It was really supposed to be a handful of animals, and it's gotten a little out of control. We have this phenomenon-
Rip Esselstyn:
How out of control?
Kathy Stevens:
50 is too many. We have this phenomenon called the underfoot family, and they are the ones who get to free roam all day long. We open their stall doors at 7:00 in the morning, and they go wherever they want. They're often underfoot, hence the name.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh my gosh.
Kathy Stevens:
Literally, when you do bring your family this summer, there's a very good chance that a goat will climb in your car.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yay.
Kathy Stevens:
It's that. That is unique, and that allows people a disarmingly intimate and often hilarious experience. We are a community. I'm a former teacher, and we are a community of educators dedicated to empowering people. We choose to believe, as you do, Rip, in people's inherent goodness and people's inherent kindness. we choose to believe that once people do have that experience of having a cow lick them on their face over and over, which is what happens at sanctuaries, or a turkey fall asleep in their lap, or a pig run to the fence when you call her name. When they have that, it changes them. It changes them. In a moment, people are transformed. Then it's our job to show them how. We are a community of teachers, educators dedicated to doing that. And then I think the third piece that makes us stand out perhaps from a lot of wonderful sanctuaries, we each have our own stamp, is the depth of our programming from my podcast, which is dormant, but I hope to reactivate it in 2023, to an vibrant cooking program, to programs with kids, et cetera. Those are some of the things.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, speaking of a vibrant cooking program, you guys have this compassionate cuisine cookbook that you guys put out. I think it was right before the COVID-19-
Kathy Stevens:
Right before the world changed, yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Which looks absolutely scrumch delicious. There's so many stories of all the different farm animals. Speaking of the farm animals, I really want to dive into... Because I think the stories of these animals, it's so heartwarming. These stories just bring it to life. So I'd like to start, and then you just go on your merry way. I'd like to start with Rambo, because you say in here, and I think it's related to Rambo, that, "It's the rare individual who frees himself from the past and lives the remainder of his life with purpose and compassion." I think you felt that way about Rambo.
Kathy Stevens:
I did. You have just made me cry. I did. Rambo was a Jacob sheep with a set of massive horns. They were probably 20 pounds a piece that moved back, and then they curled around in front of his face. He was one of 17 who came from a hoarder. They had been locked in a 12 by 12 stall for years. When we took them, the woman did not surrender them. In situations like that, if you're got to go through the legal motions before a surrender is... Oh, yeah, there he is. There those horns are. Thanks for showing that.
Rip Esselstyn:
You bet.
Kathy Stevens:
When you are going through the legal channels, the animals don't belong to the sanctuary, they still belong to the owner, so you can't neuter them. You can't neuter them. Rambo was an intact male, and we couldn't run the risk of him impregnating sheep so Rambo was in a stall. Because at the time, this was when we were just in our infancy and we didn't have 30 barns like we have now. We had one barn, so we didn't have a whole lot of options for this boy who we couldn't neuter. We had him in a spacious stall. We'd let him out periodically, but essentially he was living his life in a box, and he was pissed off about it. Why wouldn't he be? Because he'd come from confinement and here we were confining him.
He would back into the corner and just come with those horns and that head at those at the door. Eventually these big, heavy two by sixes popped out from their brace, and Rambo would walk out and go about his merry way. So we gave up on trying to keep him enclosed and realized that what he needed more than anything else, and is what he'd never had, he needed freedom. We put two beds of straw to both ends of our long barn for him. He was the first animal, and really the only animal to date, who was free roaming 24 hours a day. We never put him in a stall after that. Theoretically, he could have been taken by coyotes, but we'd never seen coyotes come down from the woods. We never heard them. I lived right behind the barn at the time. We felt like it was a safe risk that we were taking for him.
Well, as soon as we did that all that aggression went away. One night I came down to check on the animals. We had never heard his voice. He only would call to us when he was in distress. I walked from stall to stall. Rambo was on his far bed at the far end of the barn. I walked down and looked inside 10 stalls, checked on the mostly big animals. And then I made the circle and came back. I didn't notice that the two turkeys we had at the time were not in that stall. It was sleeting and it was November, and they could have been eaten by coyotes. The humans messed up twice. First, the animal care team must have had a miscommunication, A thought B was bringing them in or whatever. And then the backup screwed up. The backup didn't notice that the turkeys weren't in there. I finished my circle and I went to the far end of the barn. I said, "Goodnight, animals."
Rambo got up from his bed. He walked very purposefully up to me, and he looked up at me and he went, bah. I said, "Show me what's wrong." Clear as day. Clear as day. He walked most of the way down the aisle. He walked into that empty Turkey stall where those birds were supposed to be and he turned around and looked at me. I went out and I got Chuck and Thomasina, one of them was blind. I brought them in, dried them off. And then I crumpled into a heap because that animal who had never known a moment's kindness until he came to us knew the turkeys were out there, knew they weren't supposed to be, figured out a way to tell a human being, knew that human being would help, which made me understand that he got what we were all about. The thing that changed me profoundly and forever was that he had empathy for two animals of a different species. That moment changed my life. That moment is literally why we now have 50 underfoots.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, yeah. As you said in the book, your core beliefs were built on a false set of assumptions.
Kathy Stevens:
Absolutely.
Rip Esselstyn:
Animals like Rambo have been your greatest teacher, haven't they?
Kathy Stevens:
Oh, they absolutely have. Rambo and some others have been my greatest teachers. I've never ever realized, remember a moment sitting in class in whatever level of education, thinking, oh my God, what that guy just said made me realize that everything I thought I knew about topic X was wrong. But so much of what I thought I knew about the differences between us and them, humans and non-human animals, was seen through the only way we can see through our human-centric lens. Rambo taught me so much, not only in that one night, but in many, many, many, many other moments. He took on, Rip... And I wish I had consciously realized this while he was alive. I didn't-
Rip Esselstyn:
When did he die?
Kathy Stevens:
10 years ago.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow. Okay.
Kathy Stevens:
10 years ago. But he was our Hilda, right? Farm Sanctuary had Hilda, we had Rambo. He's been the greatest influence of any living being on my entire life. What I wish I had known while he was alive was that he was simply doing what rams do in nature. What rams do is protect the flock. He took on all of us as his flock, every chicken, every cow, every horse, every human. There are many stories in the book of him coming to get me in my house when something was wrong.
Rip Esselstyn:
It sounds like he was quite popular with the women, like Hannah and Barbie both were...
Kathy Stevens:
I can't believe you're bringing that up. Hannah. Oh my god. Rambo was probably our only sexually harassed sheep. Hannah, who was another sheep, very shy, drew her confidence from him. But she was so obsessed. She was obsessed. She was very needy. If Rambo was physically out of her sight, she would come to a human and within a space of about a minute and a half she would go from looking at you saying, where is he, to going where is he, where is he, to going bah, where is he? We would literally have to take her and show her where Rambo was. He was often hiding from her because she was too much. We eventually found a compromise where they were just out for portions of the day together. And then he got some space.
In a chapter, that's funny you brought this up, nobody's ever asked me about this, called The Audacity of Love... I haven't looked at that book in years. I remember this because it was so hilarious. A little industry hen, one of those giant hens who become 15, 16, 17 pounds if they're allowed to live, developed... She loved Rambo. She just loved him. She just loved him. She would nap next to him. She would climb on his back to take naps. It was just absolutely too much for Hannah who was miffed at the humans when we wouldn't physically separate Rambo and Barbie, the chicken.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. I'm trying to find a photo. Another sight that I can't get out of my mind is when you talk about how Rambo basically came bounding over on all fours just jumping. You didn't even know that was something they did.
Kathy Stevens:
You've seen it when you were little, sheep boinging. Sheep don't gallop. I mean, they can canter along in that three stripes, three gaits, one, two, three. I don't know how to explain it. But they can cantor in the same way that horses do and cows can, but their fastest speed if they're fleeing for their lives is a boing. Boing. It's a spring, boing, boing, boing, all four feet off the ground. Well, I was going out to a conference and leaving very early, and we had done a large rescue the previous day. We don't take llamas, but we temporarily housed three llamas until a local rescue was going to come pick them up the next day. Well, those llamas, we didn't realize how strongly they were, had knocked the doors down and had gone a quarter of a mile down onto the neighbor's property.
I found them and I thought, holy crap, how am I going to round up three llamas who were terrified of humans in a 25 acre pasture? I went to get my dog, Murphy, because Murphy and I had developed this wonderful vocabulary. It started with on this morning, I need your help. He was intensely smart. We had a very rare communication, and I figured that maybe with his help I could get behind them and drive them back toward this little narrow lane that would lead back to the barn. We were sprinting across the top of a field trying to get behind the llamas to do that. All the time I'm thinking, what in the heck are we going to do out here?
I feel the ground. At least my memory, Rip, is that I felt the ground before I realized what was happening. I turned around and here comes Rambo, boing, boing, boing. What was going on in his mind was that sheep only run out of fear. They run when they're in distress, so he knew that something was wrong and he, as the protector of the flock, was coming to see what he needed to do. So while I, the human, and standing there figuring out WTF, we're all going to do it together to rally these llamas, Rambo and Murphy just started working together. Murphy ran behind them and nipped at their heels. Whenever one went in a direction he wasn't supposed to, Rambo put his head down. I just walked along as that dog and that sheep herded three llamas back to the barn.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. No, that was such a fun story. You touched upon Murphy, so I feel like, yeah, as you said, it sounds like you and Murphy had one of those really special relationships. I feel like I had one with a dog that I had named Tug. Is Murphy still alive or no?
Kathy Stevens:
No.
Rip Esselstyn:
No. Okay.
Kathy Stevens:
No.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay. Pretty incredible. It sounds like he had quite a vocabulary. You could say, let's take a shower and he'd go into the shower or the bathtub.
Kathy Stevens:
I've been amazed at animal's capacity to learn language, animals beyond dogs, but dogs in particular. If you've seen the amazing video of the woman with the things... It looks like a checkerboard almost, but it's giant on the floor. Have you ever seen that?
Rip Esselstyn:
I haven't. I haven't.
Kathy Stevens:
Each button is a word or a phrase. There are 50, 60 of them. Her dog will go over to them and he'll press, go outside now, mom. Or time to play, mom. Or mom, get the ball under the couch.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow.
Kathy Stevens:
It's going to blow your mind. I'll find it and send it to you.
Rip Esselstyn:
Speaking of blowing our minds, talk to us for a sec about the fighting rooster, Polly. It sounds like that was another special relationship that you developed.
Kathy Stevens:
Yes. Polly was taken from a cock fighting ring. He lived in the basement of a dog and cat shelter in Brooklyn called BARK, the Brooklyn Animal Rescue Coalition, I believe. I met the director at an event in Prospect Park. We wound up taking this rooster who was fake aggressive. It was just more for show than anything else. Polly, he was with us for about three years. He came as an adult, but he learned his name. He ran to you when you called him. He ate lunch with us and begged for blueberries and started pecking at your shins if you didn't give him blueberries. And loved car rides. Good Lord, he would chase my car around that sanctuary until I stopped and picked him up and put him in my lap.
Rip Esselstyn:
You said the one time he bit you was coming up from New York City, right? You had to swerve and his head hit something.
Kathy Stevens:
Yeah, he fell into the passenger, the footwell, and he bit me. He swore at me. He swore at me. Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
He also wanted to sleep with you, right?
Kathy Stevens:
Well, the first night I realized his capacity. This was in the earlier days when we didn't have hundreds of animals. We had 50, so you knew them so intimately, every single one of them. Again, this was before we had built our chicken barn. Our chicken barn now is heated during extreme weather, but we didn't have that. He was in a stall in the main barn because that was all we had. I went down and he was shivering, shivering, shivering, visibly shivering. So I got a crate, fill it with straw, and took it up to my house and got back into bed with Murphy.
I left it in the dining room, sorry, left the crate in the dining room with water and a little bit of food, and knew he'd be warm and cozy, thought he'd be warm and cozy. Soon as my head hit the pillow, I heard... They tell you what they want if you're paying attention. I went and got the crate, put it at the foot of the bed. Got in bed... By that time, Murphy's probably sighing, and I am definitely swearing. It was so obvious.
Rip Esselstyn:
What he wanted?
Kathy Stevens:
It was obvious what he wanted. I got a bunch of towels from the closet, old towels, and put them on a pillow right next to me and put Polly there. The next morning I woke up, and there he was, right there, hadn't moved an inch. And that was a bird, again, who'd been made to fight, to defend himself, who was really just love on two legs, just love just waiting to come out.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. One of the things in reading Where the Blind Horse Sings and all the different stories of all the different animals, you say is that the healing process is different for each animal, right? The time that it takes sometimes. For example, obviously if you could talk about Buddy the Blind Horse, because that was very, very powerful. Maybe starting with him trying to get out of the trailer that he was in and just shivering uncontrollably. You couldn't get him to move even an inch.
Kathy Stevens:
We were contacted by an equine rescue that didn't have the capacity to take him, a place called Equine Advocates. Susan, the founder, said, "I've met him, and I think he just needs a chance." The family didn't understand how to care for a newly blind horse. He's an Appaloosa. For reasons that science doesn't quite understand, Appaloosas are eight times more prone to this particular form of blindness than other breeds are. Of the by now 10 or 11 blind horses we've taken in... And by the way, Rip, we've taken in so many blind animals, cows, ducks, sheep. Most of them have been Appaloosas.
Buddy arrived shivering violently. I've never seen a horse shiver like that, way beyond how you'd shiver if you were cold. And didn't want to leave the trailer and was literally moving just an inch, just a baby step at a time. I had to take a bowl of food. Well, lots of it was just touching him and talking to him and letting him hear my voice and reassuring him. But then eventually we had to get on the board. I took some sweet feed, which is basically chocolate cake for horses, for animals, because it has a lot of sugar in it. It's not the healthiest. You use it for very limited reasons. Your family would not approve of sweet feed. Just sat backwards, scooted backwards on my butt while I was pulling him, encouraging him with the food. Eventually we got to the barn. And then I had to tap to help him understand that there was a step to get up into the barn. That was the first day.
Well, over the next few days I'd take him for long walks. Short walks, and then long walks, just helping him acclimate. Very soon Buddy wanted to trot. Very soon after that, he wanted to gallop. Well, I'm sorry, I can move a little bit, but I'm not a horse. I can't run as fast or as long as a horse. Sorry, wish I could. I thought to myself, do I need to ride this horse? I had grown up as a competitive rider, and we don't in general support riding with it, because you're commodifying the animal with it. If it's competitive riding, you're using the animal for your benefit. We feel differently about companion riding, getting on a horse and riding through the woods, for example, because we believe it benefits both the human and the horse. I had no intention of riding Buddy at all.
Rip, he wanted to run. He wanted to run. He wanted to run. So it's like, okay, I guess I am going to ride this animal. We started off. The area behind the barn was extremely hilly, and it had a creek running through it. The first days I recall were just teaching him words up, down, stop, water, things to keep him safe, things to give him the confidence about he had to change his gait to keep himself from falling. But then within days I was riding that animal. And then on a day that's etched into my memory forever, we went out into a huge neighboring field, huge, 50, 75, 100 acre, giant field. His head was up and his ears were up, and he was excited. He started to trot. And then he started to canter. And then he started to gallop. And then he was running as fast as he possibly could, as fast as he possibly could.
Rip Esselstyn:
What's going through your mind?
Kathy Stevens:
No conscious thought, just utter joy. Utter joy. Utter joy and being one with that animal. He ran until he was done, probably three or four minutes. Not long, because he was running at top speed. And then he gradually slowed down and stopped. He lifted up his head and he let out the most exquisite neigh, the most joyous, exuberant neigh I've ever heard. I felt like he was saying, I'm free. It was a moment I'll never forget. We rode him until not long before he passed away, because he insisted on it. It was the only way to give him what he wanted, when what he wanted was to run. That's what they lose when they lose their vision, they lose the capacity to run because they don't know if they're going to run into something.
Rip Esselstyn:
That must be so absolutely frightening. But obviously he trusted you implicitly, and you gave him that gift. That time when he let out that wonderful neigh is that how you got the cover of this book and the name for the book?
Kathy Stevens:
Yes, it is.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Kathy Stevens:
It is.
Rip Esselstyn:
That's such a great photo and such a great title for a book. Brilliant.
Kathy Stevens:
Thanks.
Rip Esselstyn:
We could tell these stories about individual animals for a long, long time. And I'm not done, but I want to do a little pivot. Talk to me a little bit about goats. What have you learned about goats? Because you say how they're fun and curious and optimistic creatures. Who even knew that goats had, I don't know, different personalities and emotions? You do, obviously.
Kathy Stevens:
Yeah. Here's the thing. Let me say one thing first. And then I'll talk specifically about goats, if that's okay. What we've learned equivocally, like Oprah says, what I know for sure. There's a lot I don't know, but what I know for sure is that every animal is an individual. Every animal wants her life or his life as much as I want mine. Every animal has a rich emotional life. You can't name an emotion that we possess that an animal doesn't. Finally, pain and suffering feel no differently to a chicken than they do to a child.
Having said all that, particularly the thing about the individuality of each one, each one, there are universal things that apply, characteristics that apply to all humans, for example, and of course, consequently to all other species. Goats are the frat boys in the barn. They are the troublemakers. They are the social ones. They are in trouble, jumping on people's cars, breaking into the kitchen. That's who they are. That's who they are. Playful, never grow up. They're perpetually in their terrible twos.
Rip Esselstyn:
Will they eat anything, like you've heard, like a tin can or whatever?
Kathy Stevens:
I don't think they'll eat a tin can, but they will eat almost anything else. Latex gloves. Yeah, you have to be really careful when you've got free-roaming goats, because they do eat things they really shouldn't. But they also eat things like poison ivy and dead leaves, so it's a mixed bag. You got to keep them safe because they will eat all kinds of things that they shouldn't.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. There's so many places where my heart just was bursting for joy, but one in particular was when Buddy was walking through and Dino, who was-
Kathy Stevens:
Dino.
Rip Esselstyn:
Dino. Sorry, Dino.
Kathy Stevens:
It's okay.
Rip Esselstyn:
The pony who survived that horrific fire, and 20 of his family basically perished. You say he was standing out in that field just a mess, and didn't know if he'd ever recover. But something about when he saw Buddy, they immediately connected.
Kathy Stevens:
They had, but Dino was so emotionally shut down. What we've learned about animals, I'm sure that human psychologists would say the same thing about people, that if you've come from trauma you can immediately embrace love or you can fight. You have a fear-based response to your new environment, or you can be just absolutely shut down. Dino was absolutely shut down. He was the only survivor of a Brooklyn arson that killed I think 22 other horses. He probably survived. Oh, you would know this. You would know this, Rip. He was the only survivor. 22 horses died. The rest of them were horses. He was a tiny, tiny, tiny-
Rip Esselstyn:
He was probably low below the smoke.
Kathy Stevens:
That's what I was going to ask you.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Yeah. Because just smoke inhalation is typically what causes people or animals to die in fires. If you can stay low and avoid the smoke, you're great. But just two big gulps of smoke and you're passed out. Gone.
Kathy Stevens:
Really?
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Yeah.
Kathy Stevens:
Okay. I've always wondered. Oh, I'm glad we were talking about this. I've always wondered if it's because he was the tiny one that was the reason he survived.
Rip Esselstyn:
Probably. It probably helps for sure.
Kathy Stevens:
I'm going to see if I can find... Because you'll love this. I don't know if I can find it. I'll try. There was an amazing photo of a firefighter taking off his oxygen and giving it to little Dino after they dragged him out of this inferno. He had horrible scar tissue in his throat, and one of his eyes it looked like it had melted. That's the only way to describe it. It hadn't melted. That little animal was so shut down. For months and months he would eat, but not enthusiastically. He would never lift his head when we walked in. He would tolerate our touch, but not welcome it at all until Buddy came. I don't know what it was. I don't know. I still don't know.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, I think-
Kathy Stevens:
But they loved each other. Oh my goodness.
Rip Esselstyn:
You say that in the human pig relationship, humans have to adjust to pigs, period. Talk to me and talk to the audience, the listener, about pigs.
Kathy Stevens:
I can't believe you're just wanting me to tell stories all the time, which of course is my favorite thing to do, so thank you.
Rip Esselstyn:
There's nothing I like more.
Kathy Stevens:
So, pigs.
Rip Esselstyn:
Pigs.
Kathy Stevens:
Thank God, they are a force of nature, which is one of the reasons why pig factory farms are built the way they are. Not only is it they want to crowd as many as they can into a smallest space as possible, because that's the most economically viable way for the corporation to make the most money. But also because a pig can hurt you. They're smart. They are willful. They want what they want when they want it. And what they always want is food. They can drag you around as if you weigh about as much as a blade of grass.
That combination put on a sanctuary as opposed to a factory farm where they're locked in crates barely bigger than their bodies, gives you a run for your money. It gives you a run for your money. They're fierce. They're affectionate, but they are all those things: drama queens, strong and food obsessed. That makes for a challenging situation when the worst thing they're going to get at a sanctuary is bad pig. Bad pig. We're not going to electrocute them. We're not going to beat them with a two by four. We're not going to confine them. So you've got to know your way around pigs or you can get hurt.
Rip Esselstyn:
Do pigs like kisses?
Kathy Stevens:
Yes.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yes.
Kathy Stevens:
Yes, they do, right on the snout. I've yet to have anybody take me up on it, but I regularly kiss the pigs.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, you actually say in that chapter on pigs, or I should say that section on pigs, you say that the lessons, you say that they can outsmart us. You say that they can also be drama queens.
Kathy Stevens:
Oh, God. Temper tantrums. Temper tantrums.
Rip Esselstyn:
And pigs cry. Give me an example.
Kathy Stevens:
The best example is when I walked into the barn one day and I heard... I literally looked around for a woman who was crying and I didn't see anybody. And then I realized it was coming from a stall. I went in and there was nobody visible because Petunia the pig had buried herself in a giant pile of straw and was crying. I lay down behind her and draped my arms over her belly, and she went in the same way that I'm sure you've experienced with your children, she just went sigh. I went out and I found out that what had happened was that her BFF at the time was a goat, and a goat had nailed her in the butt and it had hurt her feelings because they are so unbelievably sensitive. She couldn't take it. That's all it was, that it hurt her feelings.
Rip Esselstyn:
When I was growing up we had four different pigs as pets, and two of them were great, and two of them got to be mean.
Kathy Stevens:
Testy. Mm-hmm.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Kathy Stevens:
They really run the gamut. For the most part, our pigs have been absolutely lovely. Just lie on top of them and all those wonderful things. But we've had a couple biters. We have one now who's a biter, just a biter. Got to be careful.
Rip Esselstyn:
You say that mealtime is magic. Talk to me about what does mealtime look like at Catskill Animal Sanctuary?
Kathy Stevens:
Well, it's just such a cacophony, right? Everybody knows. All the underfoots come in. They might as well have clocks because they know when dinnertime is, whether it's that they see the hay coming down out of the hayloft, or they just know by the position of the sun or some other way. They know and they come in from wherever they are, so there's this long parade of goats and sheep and Russell, the pig, coming in and hovering around the kitchen. And then the cacophony starts with the goats bleating and the sheep bleating and the horses and the cows out in the fields mooing. But is it the pigs who are deafening. The pigs climb their fences, use their front legs and climb on their gates, and they start to scream. I'm not going to do it because it will literally hurt your ears. But they scream, like... Amplified by 5,000. Give me my food now. It's utter joyous insanity.
Rip Esselstyn:
Give me an idea. How many animals, roughly, do you have right now on the property?
Kathy Stevens:
I haven't done the math, but I can tell you roughly how many we have of each species. We have roughly 20 horses. We have roughly 20 cows. We have roughly 2 million goats. No, we have 50 goats, 50 or 60 sheep, 15 pigs. And then probably all told about 100 birds.
Rip Esselstyn:
I can't even imagine the expense that's involved in care taking and feeding and housing and doing everything you have to do to take care of everyone. Just give me an idea, in today's climate, is it challenging for you and what can we do to help?
Kathy Stevens:
Well, it has become a real challenge for a whole host of reasons. It's interesting that you're bringing up the current climate because that can mean a few things. In this climate, you've got A, the rapid growth of the sanctuary movement, which is great for collaboration, for partnerships, for placing animals when you don't have the physical room, for idea gathering, for support. That's the good stuff. It's mostly good. But the downside is that the supportive sanctuaries is not keeping pace with the rise in growth, and that's for a couple of reasons. One is that, for the most part, humanity, we love our dogs and cats. We love our dogs and cats. We support wildlife, Sierra Club and organizations like that. For the most part, we're lagging way behind in our perception of farmed animals as deserving of their lives and consequently of care. That's one thing.
Another thing is that there's this movement called effective altruism that is truly harming sanctuaries. I'm one of a number of authors and activists who are contributing to a book that's coming out this spring that's a compilation of critical essays on this phenomenon known as effective altruism, which argues passionately against sanctuaries saying that the model is too costly. So that's out there in the zeitgeist. The consequence has been that some of the biggest donors ever to be a part of this movement have pulled away from sanctuaries and are supporting largely clean meat initiatives. And then on top of that, you've got inflation. Just to take one specific example, 10,000 bales of hay a year, and hay goes from 6.50 a bail to 10.50 a bale, that's 40,000. That's real money. That's real money. Those are some of the challenges that sanctuaries around the country are confronting.
You said the word climate, so it got my attention. We are in a valley and we have the very real challenges of climate change in a valley. Our little stream and pond become a river during these weird storms that we're having. In a microburst last year we lost 22 trees in a single microburst. We lost a bunch of trees, I don't know if your family told you about this, in that very odd ice storm that I think was in April. We had damages to buildings, damages to vehicles. Insurance called it an act of God and didn't cover it. Those are some of the challenges that we face and that plenty of other sanctuaries face. I think just exposure on your platform is a huge thing, just encouraging people to come visit and fall in love. More animal lovers need to visit sanctuaries and see for themselves that there's no difference between the dog that sleeps on the end of their bed and a cow or a duck or a pig.
Rip Esselstyn:
You've been doing this work now for 22 plus years. What would you say you are proudest of?
Kathy Stevens:
I think our gentle insistence on love as our modus operandi and not giving in to the anger, the rage, the impatience that has been historically so much a part of this movement. I think influencing others. Sanctuaries from around the world have sent ambassadors, staff people, to learn from our model. I'm proud of that. I'm proud of this team's resilience, mother of God. I'm proud of this team's resilience. I don't know if it's proud or privileged, lucky to have participated in this work, in this movement for long enough to see its evolution. That's so exciting to me.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, you know what? Let me piggyback on that. This is something that was in your book and it's a quote from Walt. Is Walt still with-
Kathy Stevens:
No. Walt's hilarious.
Rip Esselstyn:
But he says, "This place makes my heart sing. These animals are gifts from God, like getting a thank you note from heaven that says you're doing the right thing."
Kathy Stevens:
It's true.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, yeah.
Kathy Stevens:
It's true.
Rip Esselstyn:
Tell me this. How do you typically say hello and welcome an animal to the farm sanctuary?
Kathy Stevens:
I've never been asked that question. It's good. In the way that people know their children, or their dogs or their cats, you just learn to read animals in an instant, whether it's watching for physical cues or feeling their energy or both. It's all individualized. As I said earlier, but I'll refine this, most animals come and they are either fearful or they are neglected, but perfectly comfortable with humans. The perfectly comfortable with humans just get the good quality support. They get the affection, but they get all the quarantine protocols, they get all the medical treatments and et cetera. That's the easy group.
The more challenging ones are the fearful ones. With those animals, our phrase is let each one heal in his own way, at his own pace, on his own terms. You have to do that. Sometimes that means giving that animal a lot of space, a lot of space, and always, always, always letting the animal come to you. Sometimes it means getting physically small, even if it's with a horse or a cow, the sitting down on the ground and letting them come to you. Sometimes it means physically turning your back because eye contact is too scary.
Rip Esselstyn:
On page 183 in Where the Blind Horse Sings, you say, "It's been 15 days since our last arrival, a little hen found on an exit ramp off the New York state throughway. But I've long committed to memory the words I whisper to each new arrival the moment we meet, 'Hello animals,' I say for some as I kneel in front of them. 'We're so happy you're here. And you know what? You will never, ever be unhappy again. Only love from now on for the rest of your lives.'" When I'm reincarnated, I want to be an animal.
Kathy Stevens:
Thanks, Rip.
Rip Esselstyn:
I want words to be whispered to me. On that, I want to ask you this. How in the world do you say goodbye to these animals that you have become so attached to and love? Maybe you want to do it around the example of Sampson who was that 2,500 pound steer.
Kathy Stevens:
Yeah. I think if you are going to succeed in this work, and if you're going to be in it for the long haul, you have to get good at saying goodbye. You have to. We learn you love with your whole heart. And when it's time to go... I've had too many friends, I'm sure we all have, assuming they have the means, people who have done every last thing to keep an animal alive, those people are doing that for themselves. They're not doing it for that animal. No animal wants to be poked and prodded and surgically opened up and sutured up again and be drugged. You learn to know when quality of life has diminished to the point that it's just time. Very often they tell you. They'll say, I'm done. They'll say it. They'll say it. They'll stop eating. Their affect will be very depressed.
In the case of Sampson, who was another one of those extraordinary animals, to this day I don't know what happened to him. I don't know if one of the younger steers attacked him. He just was down in the field one day and he never stood up. It was very apparent that after all our efforts that it was time to let this old guy go. We gathered our crew, the people who knew and loved him best, and we surrounded him with love. A lot of people, we were singing to him and loving on him as he was falling asleep.
Most of your listeners have probably been through a euthanasia with one of their companion animals. It's a two-step process. The first injection, the animal just gets very sleepy. Well, that sweet old boy licked my face over and over and over and over again until he took his last breath and then just fell. We've learned that those moments can't be about us. There's no falling apart during a euthanasia. If you cannot be there for the animal, then you should stand back because all of our energy and all of our love needs to go towards sending that animal off in a way that he or she deserves. We've had some powerful final moments.
Rip Esselstyn:
I can't even imagine.
Kathy Stevens:
It's a gift, though, Rip. To be able to do that for somebody, it's hard. It's hard as hell, but it's a gift. The harder ones are when you find an animal who's just gone. That's harder because you haven't had a chance to say goodbye in the process.
Rip Esselstyn:
Where can we find you? How can we help donate all these other wonderful things?
Kathy Stevens:
Oh my goodness. Our website is the hub. You can access Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, all our social media through our website, which is casanctuary.org. We are open for private tours year round so people can get on the website and register for a private tour and come anytime. We will open up again for public tours in April. We've got a gorgeous old 200 year old bed and breakfast where people can stay. For people listening who are regional, we certainly welcome volunteers. Obviously, welcome donations. Any way that people would like to get involved. I'd love to explore opportunities with you guys, just saying.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. I tonight cannot wait to start reading a chapter a night to my eight year old, her name's Hope, of Where the Blind Horse Sings. It's going to be so impactful. I want to share that book and all those stories of all those animals and the wonderful work that you're doing with her.
Kathy Stevens:
Well, I really hope she enjoys it. I really hope you will come this summer when you're up our way.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh, I promise you right now we'll be there.
Kathy Stevens:
Okay.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay. I want to close, Kathy, with the dedication from Animal Camp. This is your dedication because I think it's so beautiful and it's a great way to end this great conversation we're having today. "I believe that in all of us is a good and pure knowing that beneath the surface of things, beneath gender and skin color, religion and nationality, social class and sexual preference, and yes, beneath species, we are all the same. This book is dedicated with love and hope to that good and pure knowing in you." Oh, that's so wonderful.
Kathy Stevens:
But isn't it the truth?
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Kathy Stevens:
It's the truth.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Yeah.
Kathy Stevens:
Thank you for closing with that.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yes. Kathy, really appreciate it. Thank you so much for everything you're doing.
Kathy Stevens:
I love your energy in the world and all the good that you and your family are doing. Thank you for this beautiful opportunity, Rip. Can't wait to meet you in person.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Right back at you.
Kathy Stevens:
Okay. Ciao.
Rip Esselstyn:
Every animal has a rich emotional life and they want to live. Like humans, they have pain and fear, but they can also learn to trust with the right interactions. Thank goodness for human beings like Kathy Stevens and places like Catskill Animal Sanctuary, who bring love and care to animals, while also making the world a better place for all of us. Visit their website at casanctuary.org to support their programs, to donate and to buy any of Kathy's books, including my absolute favorite, Where the Blind Horse Sings. You will love it. If you find yourself in that area of the country, by all means, pay them a visit and say hello to the animals for me. Spread the love, the compassion, and always keep it PlantStrong.
Thank you for listening to the PlantStrong podcast. You can support the show by taking a quick minute to follow us wherever you listen to your favorite podcast. Leaving us a positive review and sharing the show with your network is another great way to help us reach as many people as possible with the exciting news about plants. Thank you in advance for your support. It means everything. The PlantStrong podcast team includes Carrie Barrett, Laurie Kortowich, Ami Mackey, Patrick Gavin, and Wade Clark. This season is dedicated to all of those courageous, truth-seekers who weren't afraid to look through the lens with clear vision and hold firm to a higher truth. Most notably, my parents, Dr. Caldwell B Esselstyn Jr. And Anne Crile Esselstyn. Thanks for listening.
