#77: Dr. Gemma Newman - A Gem of a Doc from Across the Pond
Rip heads across the pond to talk to a true plant-based gem -- Dr. Gemma Newman. Gemma is a senior partner in a family medical practice in the UK and author of the new book, “The Plant-Power Doctor - A Simple Prescription for a Healthier You.”
Like many of us, Dr. Newman was stuck in all of the popular diet wars and tried them all to get rid of the weight she gained during medical school. However, even though she was the doctor in the family, it was her husband’s marathon training that ultimately changed the course of Gemma’s life and medical practice forever.
Today, she is passionate about plant-based nutrition, holistic health, and lifestyle medicine. In fact, it is the most powerful instrument in her medical toolbox. In this episode, Rip and Gemma dig into some of the highlights and patient stories from her new book “The Plant-Power Doctor,” including:
Her Own Testament to the Power of Plants
Inflammation in the body - causes and benefits of a plant-based diet to combat inflammation
The Power of Antioxidants
Hormonal Health for Women
And we even talk a little Harry and Meghan gossip and British slang along the way!
It’s undeniable that medical practices both here and in the UK are burdened with so much competing information, lack of time, and a fast-paced ‘fix-it-now’ society - BUT, with doctors like Gemma Newman fighting for long-term health and vitality, we are on the RIGHT PATH and we hope you’ll stay right here with us because the proof is in the plants!
Episode and PLANTSTRONG Resources:
Buy The Plant Power Doctor Book by Dr. Gemma Newman
PLANTSTRONGFOODS.com Want to be the first to hear about new PLANTSTRONG foods? Text the word, FOODS to 77174 and we’ll add you to the VIP list for early access. We have a couple of our heritage products available on our website - including the crowd favorite - our stone-baked, 100% whole grain, oil-free pizza crusts.
PLANTSTRONG Meal Planner - use code: STARTFRESH for a 14-Day Free Trial. Yes, you have to enter a credit card - but you won’t be charged if you cancel before the trial ends and that’s a click of a button. Enjoy the test drive and get cooking!
Dr Gemma Newman has worked in medicine for 17 years and is the Senior Partner at a family medical practice where she has worked for 12 years. She studied at the University of Wales College of Medicine and has worked in many specialities as a doctor including elderly care, endocrinology, pediatrics, obstetrics and gynecology, psychiatry, general surgery, urology, vascular surgery, rehabilitation medicine and General Practice. She gained additional qualifications in gynecology and family planning. She is a founding member and ambassador for PBHPUK and a member of BSLM.
Dr Newman has a specialist interest in holistic health, plant based nutrition and lifestyle medicine. In her practice she has come to understand that body, mind and soul are not separate, and that it is only in addressing the root causes of stress and disconnection that we can truly heal, from the inside out. Dr Newman is regularly invited to teach other doctors and the general public via training programs, podcasts and conferences about the benefits of plant-based nutrition.
Full Transcript
Dr. Gemma Newman:
My grandfather died suddenly of a heart attack when he was playing tennis in his early 60s. My father, he died suddenly of a heart attack in his late 50s. I previously had thought that was my genetic destiny. I know that your dad talks a lot about being able to avoid that genetic destiny. The lifestyle and the gun and the trigger analogy. He says it's important that... What is it? The genetics load the gun and the lifestyle pulls the trigger. Well, that's what your dad says, and that's what I finally began to realize is that after just a month of eating this way, I had finally managed to achieve normal lipid levels.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
And another thing I noticed personally was that when I would previously get a lot of knee aches when I ran, that disappeared. I've never had that again.
Rip Esselstyn:
Season three of the Plant-Strong Podcast explores those Galileo moments where you seek to understand the real truth around your health and dare to see the world through a different lens. This season we honor those courageous seekers who are paving the way for you and me. So grab your telescope, point it towards your future, and let's get Plant-Strong together.
Rip Esselstyn:
Hello everyone. I'm Rip Esselstyn, and welcome to the Plant-Strong Podcast. Today on the show, we zoom our way across the pond to talk to a true plant-based gem Dr. Gemma Newman. Gemma is a senior partner in a family medical practice in the UK and author of the new book The Plant Power Doctor: A Simple Prescription for a Healthier You.
Rip Esselstyn:
What I love about this conversation is hearing Dr. Newman's honest personal journey and how she came to her own aha moment. Like many of us, she was stuck in all of the popular diet wars and tried them all to get rid of the weight she had gained during medical school. However, even though she was the doctor in the family, it was her husband's marathon training that ultimately changed the course of Gemma's life and medical practice forever.
Rip Esselstyn:
Today, she is passionate about plant-based nutrition, holistic health, and lifestyle medicine. In fact, it is the most powerful instrument in her medical toolbox. We dig into some of the highlights of her new book The Plant Power Doctor, and we even talk a little Harry and Meghan gossip and British slang along the way.
Rip Esselstyn:
Please welcome the delightful and wonderful Dr. Gemma Newman.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay. Welcome to the Plant-Strong Podcast. As you know, this is season three. I have got somebody that's across the pond that I want to introduce you to today. Her name is Dr. Gemma Newman. She is a GP, which means general practitioner. So she does family medicine. And she has come highly recommended by several different sources to be on the podcast. You knew who I was just talking to a couple days ago, Gemma, was Derek Sarno who couldn't say more great things about you.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
Aw, I love Derek.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. So do we. So do we. He's fantastic. But I'd love to talk to you today about yourself, about this wonderful new book The Plant Power Doctor: A Simple Prescription for a Healthier You. And season-
Dr. Gemma Newman:
I'm glad you got your copy. Have you had a chance to look at it yet?
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh my gosh. It is drop dead gorgeous. The photography, the different colored pages, the information. You really did an outstanding job. Nicely done.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
Thank you. That's really kind. Thank you.
Rip Esselstyn:
It's very obvious you put a lot of time and energy into that book. Yes.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
Yes. It took a long time.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, yeah. Exactly.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
It's quite hard to make something both visually appealing and scientific and accessible and practical.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, you did it. You absolutely hit a grand slam. In season three, what we're really doing is we're focusing in on people that have really... They have discovered a Galileo moment that helped guide them towards plant-based nutrition. So in reading your book, I know what those are, but I'd love for you to share them with the audience. And let's start, if we may, let's start with... Now, to me, it's interesting. You didn't stumble upon this because of an article that you read in the scientific literature. It was because of your husband who's not even in the medical field. So what happened there?
Dr. Gemma Newman:
Well, you know what people say, anytime that you don't know anything, they say, "Aren't you supposed to be a doctor?"
Dr. Gemma Newman:
So yes, my husband who's not a medic, he was the one that opened my eyes to the benefits of plant-based nutrition. I'll never forget it because he was training for completing the London Marathon, and he was really excited about it. He wanted to do a good job, and he kept on getting injured. He kept on getting inflammation in his joints. So he was getting really frustrated. I said, "Why don't you try looking at your technique? Why don't you change your trainers?" Whatever, your sneakers. He tried everything or he thought he had. And then he thought to himself, "Well, how is it that some of these guys out there can run ultra marathons? They can run 10 marathons in one go. What are they doing that's different from what I'm doing?"
Dr. Gemma Newman:
So he read Rich Roll's book Finding Ultra, and he read Brendan Brazier's book. I don't know Brenda Brazier, but I know that he did help Hugh Jackman get really ripped for being Wolverine. Scott Jurek Born to Run. He thought, "Hang on, they're all completely plant-based. So I'm going to do that, and I'm going to see if that helps me get a better result." And I was very skeptical. I thought to myself, "Well, he's bound to have some sort of nutritional deficiency. What about protein?" What about all the things that a lot of people understandably might think because that's the society in which we've all grown up in.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
But most of all, I was worried about what our friends might think because-
Rip Esselstyn:
That's so funny.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
I know.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh my gosh. I'm worried about what the Smith's and Jones might think of this.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
Well, it's true. I'm a bit of a social butterfly. I love seeing people, and I thought, "I'll never get invited to our friends' houses again. They'll think, 'What is this? How do I cook you a meal?'" But anyway, I watched, and I was so curious. He did incredibly well. So he transitioned to a fully whole foods plant-based diet. His inflammation melted away. He was able to do his marathon training runs without any problems. He would run a marathon and then come back and look after the kids for the rest of the day. I was thinking, "What's happened here? He's really made huge improvements in his running."
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, I can get behind this, and watching the kids, wow.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
Exactly. He's so full of energy. It was amazing. The next London Marathon he did, he managed to run it in an hour and 10 minutes faster this his first attempt, and I was completely blown away. I thought, "Wow. This stuff really works." I wanted to know why. That was the beginning of some of the research that I did around antioxidants and inflammation around sporting recovery. But of course I'm not really focused on athletes personally. I'm focused on my patients. I want to see results for the people I look after. I want to see results from the people that are dying of heart disease and cancer, suffering from autoimmune diseases, hormonal imbalances, skin problems. That's what I was interested in.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
What fascinated me was that plant-based approaches I began to realize can be applied to many different illnesses, many different ailments, and they can improve, or in some cases even reverse some of those ailments. So for me, that was when the penny dropped. I was very excited.
Rip Esselstyn:
I can't imagine, and again, you haven't actually seen it yet with your patients. But I can't imagine as somebody in your position that all of a sudden you find what in some regards I think is almost the silver bullet that can address autoimmune, cancer, heart disease, diabetes. And it almost seems way too good to be true. But I'll let you go. Go ahead.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
It does seem way too good to be true, and I've come across other medics, other healthcare professionals, other dieticians and nutritionists who are naturally skeptical, as I was because it does seem really too good to be true. And I don't also want to sell this as a complete panacea because you and I both know that many people will still suffer from chronic diseases despite the best of diets. But it's still something that we should know about. It's still something that can really help a lot of people.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
So I decided that I would give it a go myself, and I done enough research. Interstitially, I had already done a lot of research into the environmental science side of things. So I knew that from an environmental perspective it was probably a really good idea to go more plant-based or certainly consider a vegan lifestyle. But it was something that I just felt seemed a bit too extreme, a bit too difficult. My preconceptions had stopped me from that point.
Rip Esselstyn:
And then what would the neighbors think?
Dr. Gemma Newman:
I know. What about my friends?
Rip Esselstyn:
No, can't forget that. By the way, what in the world's going on with Meghan and Harry right now? I mean, is it the talk of the town?
Dr. Gemma Newman:
Oh my god. It's the talk of... I don't know. Certainly the talk of the UK. I don't know what it's doing in America, but my goodness, yeah. It's on everybody's mind I think.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, they were on Oprah the other day. I haven't seen it, but I hear it was kind of shocking some of the information that she was sharing.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
You know what, it was a very interesting interview. I actually decided in a complete departure from my normal content. I did an impromptu Instagram live yesterday discussing my thoughts about the Harry and Meghan interview.
Rip Esselstyn:
What?
Dr. Gemma Newman:
Sexism, racism, the storytelling that we do in the media, and human instincts and where we go from here. It was a whole big spiel that I could talk to you about for a long time. So I probably maybe invite you to go to my Instagram page if they want to know my thoughts about that. But yeah, definitely something that of interest certainly here in the UK.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, fantastic. Thank you. Maybe we'll have to have you on again for another little episode on what's going on at the palace.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
Yes. As I said, I did a whole half an hour chat about it. So it's something I've got a lot of interest in, I think perspectives on. But ultimately I think we have to lead with kindness is what I think. Whatever people are saying to be true, I think we have to believe them because we can't walk in someone else's shoes until we really have walked in their shoes. So that's my ultimate conclusion.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
But yeah, now you distracted me, Rip. I was [crosstalk 00:12:02] free flow.
Rip Esselstyn:
I did that on purpose. But I can tell you exactly where you were and where you were going.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
Okay.
Rip Esselstyn:
We were talking about you, and you were saying how you knew the benefits from an environmental standpoint, sustainability. But it just seemed a little too extreme. And then what would Sarah and Barb think, your best friends?
Dr. Gemma Newman:
Sarah and Barb. They might not have been happy. Yeah. I think that's important to acknowledge because lots of people have psychological barriers to change. It's very common. We care about what people think. We care about making life pleasurable, making life easy. Sometimes it's hard to make changes. So I think that's really interesting thing to acknowledge and certainly was one of the main reasons why I hadn't decided to go down that route until then. But I did it.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
I find it much easier than I expected to. I didn't tell anybody. I think a lot of people advise you to seek support from your loved ones and accountability. And I just did it myself. I thought, "I don't want to lose face. If I try this and I can't do it, then no one's the wiser." I decided to just give it a go, and I felt good. I didn't find it difficult. I was generally healthy at the time. So I didn't notice any dramatic differences in my health. But what I did find, something that's really pivotal, perhaps certainly to this conversation as well as my life moving forward is that I had finally managed to get a normal lipid profile in my blood test.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
I have a family history of high cholesterol and my grandfather died suddenly of a heart attack when he was playing tennis in his early 60s. My father, he died suddenly of a heart attack in his late 50s. I previously had thought that was my genetic destiny. I know that your dad talks a lot about being able to avoid that genetic destiny. The lifestyle and the gun and the trigger analogy. He says it's important that... What is it? The genetics load the gun and the lifestyle pulls the trigger. Well, that's what your dad says, and that's what I finally began to realize is that after just a month of eating this way, I had finally managed to achieve normal lipid levels.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
And another thing I noticed personally was that when I would previously get a lot of knee aches when I ran, that disappeared. I've never had that again. I would personally put that down to my plant-based diet. That is an anecdote. That's my personal experience. But luckily there is a lot of evidence in the literature to corroborate what I've discovered.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
In a sense, I do like to share my story because it's part of how I got there, and it's part of that moment. But what's really exciting to me is how it can change the lives of my patients because that's where the real magic happens. When people's lives are changed for the better and they can take back control of their health, that is just... It's the very best feeling.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, and it's why you signed up for this profession, right?
Dr. Gemma Newman:
Yeah. Absolutely. I know it sounds corny, but most people do become doctors because they want to help people, and I was the same. That's what I wanted to do. And I went through all the training. I was so enthusiastic, and I thought I was going to change the world and save lives every day. It doesn't always work out that way. You do your best with the tools that you're given. But ultimately, my toolbox was half empty, and I over the years have been able to luckily fill it with all sorts of things around holistic medicine, lifestyle medicine, of course plant-based nutrition. I learned about psychological techniques, motivational interviewing, solution focused therapeutic approaches, cognitive behavioral therapy, and I wanted to be able to use some of these tools to help my patients to make the changes that they wanted to make in their lives. So this was a very magical moment for me.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Give me an idea of this timeframe. What year are we in right now when you're starting [inaudible 00:16:13]-
Dr. Gemma Newman:
Probably only about five years ago.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay. And there was one patient that kind of got the ball rolling for you, and he came in with some seriously elevated blood pressure, was in jeopardy of losing his job. Can you tell us about that patient and what happened?
Dr. Gemma Newman:
Of course, yeah. I'd love to. He's a great guy. So he turned up for this appointment, and I should let people know just for context. I work as a senior partner at the NHS GP surgery. So NHS stands for National Health Service. So it's a government run service. Anybody can join from any background. They don't pay. It's all free healthcare. So I've gotten nearly 3,000 patients, and I never know who's going to show up and what the problem's going to be. And it could be anything. I see everything from cradle to grave. So it's a little bit different from the US. I think that people will see a pediatrician with their child. People will see a gynecologist. For example, whereas here, they all see somebody like me, which is a slightly different way of doing things.
Rip Esselstyn:
Can you ask you this? How are you incentivized? Are you on a salary? Do you make money by the patients you see? How does that work?
Dr. Gemma Newman:
Yes. So we are paid by the government, which is proportional to the patient list size. So it's kind of like a flat rate based on the amount of patients that are registered at your surgery. There are additional financial incentives for documenting certain healthcare perimeters. But the main bulk of it is essentially based on numbers. So it's interesting because sometimes you have more work if you have a larger elderly population, population that are living in care homes, residential homes, things like that. So it doesn't always work out, but that's essentially how it goes.
Rip Esselstyn:
I just was wondering if over there in the UK you're incentivized at all to keep your patients well with this kind of preventative medicine.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
In a sense, we are. So the downside to the way the system works is that we've got a very limited amount of time with each patient, only 10 minutes per appointment, which is not enough to be able to necessarily create really lasting change. But the upside is if you have a decent longterm position, you're able to see patients time and again over the years, which is a nice way of checking in, helping them with accountability, learning about them a bit more, learning about exactly where they live, who their family is, what their job is, which are all really relevant to their future health. So there are definitely upsides and downsides.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
It's not easy in terms of timing, but I think there is an incentive to keeping people well because the government pays for a lot of the provision. So for example, drug companies can't directly come to the doctor and say, "You need to use our product." None of the products are advertised on TV. There's none of that because the government has to procure contracts with pharmaceutical companies, and the pharmaceutical companies have a natural incentive to give the government the best price for their product because the government wants to save money on the provision.
Rip Esselstyn:
Nice.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
So this gentleman with his blood pressure.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
Yeah. So he walked in, and he sat down. He looked at me, turned to me, and he said, "I've been sent home from work, and I've been told I'm not allowed to go back." And it sounded so dramatic. I turned to him, and I said, "What happened?" I didn't know what he was going to say. He said, "Well, they did an on the spot medical. I had to do it. There was no option. They just go, 'All right. We're doing some on the spot medicals.' My blood pressure was really high, and they told me they were going to revoke my license just as a..."
Dr. Gemma Newman:
I should've told you this part at the beginning. He's a driver at the airport. So for him, it was crucial to be able to keep his license because that was a major part of his job.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
They told him, "We're taking your license. You're not allowed to come back to work until you've got the blood pressure under control, and you've had a medical to prove it. And then you can consider applying for your license again." So he was absolutely desperate. He looked like he was about to go into tears.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
So I said, "Well, what do you want to do about it?" He said, "Well, I want to just get this dealt with as quickly as possible." I said, "Well, normally what we would do is prescribe at least three hypertension medications to get you into the normal range." Because his was really high. It was like 180 over 100 millimeters of mercury. It should be around about 120 over 80 if you're normal. He said, "What? I don't want to be on three medications for the rest of my life." I said, "Well, that's the only option unless you want to change your lifestyle in a dramatic way." He said, "Well, I'll do anything, doctor. I'll do anything." I said, "Really?"
Dr. Gemma Newman:
He's a South African man, really fond of his meat, and I said, "Well, are you prepared to do a trial of a completely whole foods plant-based diet and see what happens?" And I said, "I'm willing to let you do this as long as you come back to me and you can agree that we'll start the medications if this doesn't work for you." He said, "Yeah, yeah. I'll do anything." So I gave him some very brief instructions. I told him to look on the internet for some very specific information, and I sent him off.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
He came back to me, and it was less than two weeks. I think it was around 10 days or so. He came back, and he said, "I've been doing it. I've been amazing. Every day..." I gave him specific advice about bits and pieces that he might want to try, including things like flaxseeds and hibiscus tea. There's a few small trials here and there, so I thought, "Well, let's just put it all on him." And incredibly he been able to bring his blood pressure down to 120 over 80 completely without medication, and my jaw dropped. I honestly did not expect to see such a dramatic result for this man.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right, right. Well, probably especially in that short of period of time.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
It was unbelievable. Since then, I've obviously helped lots of patients, and they don't always have such a dramatic shift. But my first one was clearly very powerful for my psyche because I thought, "Wow. This really can make a big, big difference." I thought it must've been some mistake. I just couldn't believe it. So I got him to come back. I tested it three times, three different occasions before doing the medical, which again was normal. And he was able to go back to work. He was able to continue his job, and he was absolutely thrilled. And then of course, he became the biggest advocate for the power of plants.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Well, you have a bunch of wonderful quotes in the book. One of the ones you start off the book with is, it's by Archbishop Desmond Tutu where he says, "There comes a time when we need to stop pulling people out of the water. We need to go upstream and find out why they're falling in." That to me was for you such a pivotal moment in seeing, "Wow. You know what, all these people are just falling in the water. We got to go upstream, and this is the answer."
Rip Esselstyn:
So I want to start with this. What is your definition of a whole food plant-based diet as opposed to veganism?
Dr. Gemma Newman:
So veganism is a lifestyle where you're really emphasizing minimizing harm to animals and the environment as well. So when you're thinking about veganism, it's very much a value system based lifestyle. So it would include not just what you put on your plate but the things that you choose to wear, the products that you choose to use, and you want to just make sure that there is as little harm as is practically possible to animals.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
So in theory, if you're living a vegan lifestyle, you could eat pretty much anything you want as long as it's not derived from animals, which would include fried foods and donuts and biscuits and cakes and crisps and chips, all the things. Whereas a whole foods plant-based lifestyle is where you emphasize fruits, vegetables, whole grains and legumes, herbs and spices, nuts and seeds. Those would be the absolute cornerstone of your diet. And it doesn't specific what you do with the rest of your lifestyle.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
One thing that they do have in common is that they tend to avoid animal products. And when I talk about whole food plant-based, I am essentially referring to a lifestyle where you don't use animal products. Having said that, the research does show that for most people a predominantly plant focused diet is probably something that people can benefit from, and there's a number of different dietary styles that you can use where some animal products are included. But that's not what I mean when I talk about a whole food plant-based diet.
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Rip Esselstyn:
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Rip Esselstyn:
And one of the things as a physician that you are trying to curb more than anything is inflammation and especially this chronic inflammation. Why is a whole food plant-based diet so good at curbing inflammation, and what are some of the products that promote inflammation?
Dr. Gemma Newman:
Yeah. The reason whole foods plant-based is so useful is because it's a diet where you're absolutely maximizing the foods that give you every kind of nutrient without giving you things that may make you less healthy. So you got phytonutrients, antioxidants, vitamins, minerals, insoluble fibers, soluble fiber. You've got the whole package. You got every micronutrient and macronutrient pretty much. There's a couple of caveats there, but what you're doing is you're providing your body with these antioxidant rich foods.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
Now every single metabolic process that we have involves some level of oxidation. In the process of creating energy within ourselves, free radicals are produced, which are tiny little oxygen molecules that just bounce around the cell like a pin in a pinball machine. And that can cause damage within the cell. If you want to minimize the damage, then you have to soothe that little free radical oxygen species, and you do that by providing a negatively charged electron, which calms it right now and helps to reduce any inflammation.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
Of course, that's what we're talking about when we're talking about foods that contain antioxidants. They are literally electron donaters. They sweep in. They soothe any of that inflammation. They calm down that free radical, and they allow the cells to function normally. Now you can't stop that process from happening. It's a natural part of living, but luckily with these healthy foods, we can counteract some of the damage that's done. It definitely is good for a number of different metabolic processes, but that's one of the main things that it's helpful for.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. I think it's fair to say that one of the underlying causes of the constellation of all these chronic Western diseases that we've been talking about is inflammation, and you curb and you get rid of that inflammation, that's when I think the healing can occur.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
Yes, you're right. I think it's also worth mentioning that when you're eating foods that contain very processed oily foods, fried foods, animal products, what you're doing is you're providing foods that have the opposite effect, an excess of omega-6 fatty acids, an excess of saturated fats. And that can then counteract some of the benefits.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
Now luckily you can eat more plants and get a little bit of a counterbalance. But ultimately if you're going to be doing things to the best of your ability, then it kind of makes sense to eat more plants.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. So you mentioned fats, saturated fat there. There's so much confusion right now going on. I don't know what it's like in the UK, but here in the States, it's like paleo and keto and these saturated fats that seem to be part of the life blood of their program. But I think it's fair to say that the science really doesn't support that. So can you talk for a second about fats and saturated fats verse monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fats?
Dr. Gemma Newman:
Yes. So I suppose you're right. I think paleo and keto and low carb, they're all very popular ways of eating. And I really aim to be respectful to people and the results that they get when they follow a specific dietary regime. I never want to negate their personal experiences. But you're absolutely right when you say that the majority of the evidence points towards saturated fat being harmful. Cochrane Reviews. You look at all of these systematic reviews and meta analysis of randomized control trials, a lot of the data will point towards saturated fat having a very strong link to heart disease.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
So when you're looking at that, you have to take a step back. I think this is the problem is that quite often there is so many ways to bulk, shred, lose weight, gain weight, and you can feel good using a number of different strategies. But when you're thinking about longterm health, that's where you want to really use the data to your advantage. So when you can see that in every single kind of dataset, plants are good for you, and saturated fats are linked to chronic disease, then we have to pay attention.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
Yes, again, I'm not saying that these aren't useful for some people in certain circumstances. But it's not something that I would comfortably ever endorse because of the longterm risks involved. There's a lot of data to say that plant proteins are far healthier in the longterm than animals proteins in terms of your chance of living a longer, healthier life. And the same is true thinking about things like keto. I know that there are certain medical reasons why somebody might need a ketogenic diet. For example, if they have intractable epilepsy. But there are big potential risks and complications with that. Pancreatitis, early onset heart disease, seizures. I think there's even a couple of case reports of very early death. These were all linked with the way that the child and then adult had to live based on their diagnosis.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
So I think it's really tricky when I hear medical professionals talk about things like keto because to me, it seems as though yes, there maybe some short term benefits. But when you look at the data, I would worry about the veracity of recommending those kinds of diets because the proof is in the plants.
Rip Esselstyn:
It is. So will you let people know how by eating whole plant-based foods, which is I think your simple prescription for a healthier you, that they are going to be getting all the healthy essential fatty acids that they need?
Dr. Gemma Newman:
The data does seem to support that, but I will give you a caveat because when we're talking about omega-3 fatty acids, we know that the ones that are the most bioavailable at the long chain omega-3 fatty acids, they're used by the brain. They're used by the heart. Some of the data suggests that some people are not so good at converting plant sources of omega-3s to the long chain version. So flaxseeds are amazing, chia seeds, hemp seeds, walnuts. These are the things that we can enjoy an abundance of and get some really healthy omega-3 fatty acids. But if we're having a lot of omega-6 fatty acids, then they compete with the omega-3s for the receptors in our body.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
So you're not going to necessarily be able to use them if we're eating other things that are high in omega-6s, like oily foods and junk foods and other animals products. So I think it's important to be mindful. Am I maximizing my omega-3s, flaxseed, chia seeds, hemp seeds, walnuts? Think about an algae oil supplement. We don't have the data to say that algae oil supplements are essential. There are many-
Rip Esselstyn:
Just for the audience, because of your beautiful accent, you're saying an algae supplement, yes?
Dr. Gemma Newman:
Yes, algae. Yes.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
So we call it algae over here.
Rip Esselstyn:
I know, algae and fiber. You spell fiber F-I-B-R-E, and what else? Haem iron is spelled H-A-E-M. It's crazy.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
Yeah, we have quite different spelling. Sorry. So algae. We know that there are many societies that have lived very healthfully vegetarian without using fish, especially South Asian populations. So we know that it's definitely possible to maximize brain health and heart health without fish.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
It's just that when we also see that there's a lot of research saying that omega-3 fatty acids are really beneficial, then I think it makes sense to at least err on the side of caution, especially for children, for elderly, and for pregnant women. Why not take an algae oil supplement just to be on the safe side until we know more, until there's more research available.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. I want to talk now for a second about carcinogens that help promote cancer, and one of the things you talk about in your book that I know people aren't going to want to hear, especially your good neighbors Barb and Herb is around alcohol. But you're very, very clear and concise here that we got to be super careful with alcohol. Can you address that first?
Dr. Gemma Newman:
Yeah. There are a number of population studies, the Global Burn, the disease study, essentially no amount of alcohol is healthy for us according to those studies, which is disappointing news because obviously many of us enjoy a tipple every now and then.
Rip Esselstyn:
A tipple? Did you say a tipple?
Dr. Gemma Newman:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay. I never heard that word. It's like T-I-P-P-L-E? Tipple.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
Yeah, tipple.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow. Very close to nipple, but okay.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
Well, many people enjoy nipples every now and then as well. So who am I to judge? Where was I? You distracted me again.
Rip Esselstyn:
Tipple.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
Carcinogens. The problem we have with alcohol is that it contains acetaldehyde basically. So when you consume it, it's impossible to avoid acetaldehyde, and it metabolizes as soon as you put the alcohol onto your tongue. So there's no way of avoiding it. It's a known carcinogen. Which is difficult because for many of us, alcohol is an important part of celebrations, traditions, and all sorts of things. So I do think it's worth being aware that if you want to enjoy alcohol, then do. But just be aware that it does have its downsides. Some people as well have issues with alcohol generally in terms of there's many people that just don't seem to be able to tolerate it physiologically or psychologically. In those people as well, I would say it's best avoided. But everybody's different. But most people don't necessarily realize that link.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
People get, "Oh, if I drink too much, I might get liver cancer or liver failure." But it's actually much more subtle than that. There are cancer risks that many people are unaware of and unfortunately unavoidable. I know trying to create a balanced argument, there are polyphenols in red wine. But to be honest with you, you probably get more of them from eating red grapes.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Exactly. So let's talk about some other carcinogens. What happens when you cook meat? You get HCAs, and you also get polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons. Can you address that for a sec?
Dr. Gemma Newman:
Sounds like you already know what happens. Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, I do, but you're the star of the show today.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
Oh, thank you. Yes. When we cook meat, unfortunately these carcinogenic compounds are generated, such as HCAs, as you so eloquently said, and the problem with those is it's impossible to avoid them whenever you're cooking meat. Barbecued meat is probably the worst culprit in terms of producing these cancer forming compounds, but even when you are gently boiling meat, you still produce them to a lesser extent. So it's worth knowing that especially.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
And of course, it's also about processed meat. Many of your viewers and listeners will know that the World Health Organization classes processed meat as a class one carcinogen, which means that we know it's cancer causing, especially for colon cancer. So pepperoni, pastrami, salami, ham, sausages, all that kind of stuff is definitely cancer causing. Red meat is probably cancer causing, so it's a class two carcinogen. The World Cancer Research Fund tells us that fruits, vegetables, whole grains, and legumes are the absolute cornerstone of a cancer preventing diet. So when you put all of this together, it just makes sense to eat more plants.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. It does. Let's step into you have a nice chapter in your book on hormones and health. I don't know if you want to start with IGF1 or something like that, but love for you to just kind of dive in where you think you want to.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
Well, I think that hormonal health is a forgotten area of wellness when it comes to nutrition. I know it's relevant for men in terms of things like sperm count. So we could perhaps come to that in a minute. But I think for women it's particularly relevant because many of us suffer from period pains, endometriosis, fibroids, horrific menopausal symptoms, and it's interesting to note that there's a lot of data to suggest that all of these things could be improved using plant-based nutrition approaches. And many women don't realize that. I see many, many women struggling every month with period pains, undiagnosed endometriosis, severe fibroids, and they have no idea that plants could help them with these things. So that's something I'm actually really passionate about.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
IGF1 is one of the links to cancer we know, and so that's relevant for cancer. But it is also relevant for our hormones. Polycystic ovaries as well. So many women suffer from polycystic ovaries, which is mediated by insulin resistance, much like type two diabetes, and there is also there a connection with IGF1. There are more IGF1 receptors. In fact, women that have PCOS also have more receptors for HCAs. You mentioned in the meat, the carcinogenic compounds. So there is an increase risk of longterm disease from that perspective as well. So I think that it's almost on a disservice to women to not be told about some of these amazing benefits of plants and why does that happen?
Dr. Gemma Newman:
Well, let's take period pains for example, if I may. That's a reasonable place-
Rip Esselstyn:
No, please. You wouldn't believe how many women we have that are listening right now that are between the ages of probably 30 and 50. So yes.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
So that's a good place to start. So when we have our period, it's natural for the womb lining to shed once a month. Prostaglandins help with that process. These are substances that are produced inside the womb lining to help contract the womb, to help the blood to come out. But the problem is when we are eating sources of food that increase the prostaglandins in the womb lining, then we get a lot more eating and potentially a lot more pain and contraction. So it's interesting to note that when you have foods that are rich in fiber, fruits and vegetables, whole grains and legumes, you can less prostaglandin production at the womb lining, which means that your periods hopefully will be much less painful and less heavy. Which I think is a huge thing for women to know. It really is because some women suffer so terribly, and to know that you could potentially have a normal periods that have much less pain and heaviness is a really amazing thing.
Rip Esselstyn:
That sounds like a total game changer, and it's one of the things that happened with one of your patients, Shelly, whose story you share in the book.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
Oh, Shelly, she's just amazing. Poor Shelly is in the perimenopause. So you haven't stopped your periods, and in fact, they've become heavier and more frequent and more painful, and she had the hot flashes. And she was having the exhaustion, and she was having the insomnia, sleepless nights, puffy eyes. She came to me. She was absolutely desperate. This woman had tried what she thought was a healthy lifestyle. She thought she tried everything. Many people do. But when I explained to her some of the benefits of plant-based nutrition, she was skeptical. She thought, "Well, that sounds okay, but that's not something I would do." I said to her, "Well, why don't we give it a try?" I told her about the benefits of minimally processed soy products for helping with hormonal symptoms. I told her about the importance of fiber. Fiber is crucial to stop you from recycling unwanted estrogen.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
So what happens in our gut is that unwanted hormones are put into our poo for us to poop out, and when we become constipated, we actually reabsorb some of those hormones, which increases our exposure to unwanted hormones, unwanted estrogen.
Rip Esselstyn:
I've never heard that before. That's fascinating. Another reason why you want to be as regular as a Swiss commuter train. Okay.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
Very important to be regular because you are pooping out toxins and unwanted hormones and all sorts of stuff. So if you are constipated, it's not a good idea for hormonal health. I explained to her how fiber was so important for that, and she had been constipated as well. So we got to the point where she came back to me and she honestly looked like a different woman. She said that her friends have said to her, "What's happened? You look amazing?" She was sleeping better. She was pooping better. Her periods were lighter. They had gone back to being monthly. Her hot flashes had gone. She had less puffiness around her face. Her friend said she looked 10 years younger. They asked her if she'd had Botox. She said no.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
She was so happy. I think she probably lost about 11 pounds in weight as well. That was an unintentional side effect of her change of lifestyle, and she was absolutely over the moon. So yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, that is powerful. Another powerful thing is the before and after photo of you that's in this book. You, it's night and day. I mean, all of a sudden you go from being a good looking woman to absolutely drop dead gorgeous.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
Oh, that's very kind, Rip. Thank you. I think for me, what it was for me with plant-based nutrition, it was a way of feeling vitality. I did include the before and after photograph, and in a way, I was reluctant to do that because I didn't want people to embrace plant-based nutrition just for weight loss. Because I found in my practice that if you're only doing it to lose weight, especially when you're a young female and you've got all these other societal expectations on you to look a certain way, then it can become problematic in your psychology around food. I didn't want for woman to feel that way.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
But having said that, as you can see, there was a big difference over the years in how I looked, and just to be completely transparent, I also lost weight using low carb diets many years previous. So you can still get aesthetic results. Like you see guys in the gym looking really muscly, looking really fit and healthy, but then they go on the treadmill and then they drop dead of a heart attack because inside things were really different.
Rip Esselstyn:
Or as you said in your book, you were able to lose the weight doing the low carb, high protein thing, but then your lipid panel was absolutely atrocious.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
Exactly.
Rip Esselstyn:
And reflected the saturated fat, all the cholesterol you had been consuming and all the other things that to me were just putting you on the road to where you were following your grandfather and your father, which was not good. Not good at all.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
No, exactly. You're completely right. And also, like many families, I've got cancer in my family as well. I think every one of us can think of people who have these chronic diseases that can be mediated through diet and certainly potentially prevented as well. So that is I suppose the main point. I hope that the before and after photograph is inspiring, but I don't want it to be like, "Oh, I'm going to do this so I can just be skinny," because I think that's not... I'd love it to be a side effect. I'd love it to be, "I'm embracing this amazingly healthy life. These are all the things I'm going to gain. And if I lose a few pounds in the process, then that's cool."
Rip Esselstyn:
Exactly right. It's a nice byproduct of getting healthy.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
I'd love for you to touch just for a second because there's so much confusion out there, and we get so many questions from our community about rising estrogen levels and soy being the devil. You just talked about how I think it was Shelly, you actually prescribed to her doing some whole, kind of close to grown soy products as possible once a day. So can you talk about soy and estrogen and that relationship?
Dr. Gemma Newman:
Yeah, I think that's a really good one that there's a lot of confusion over. So soy is actually really great for hormonal health. Soy products in their minimally processed form, they are actually what we call selective estrogen receptor modulators or SERMs. We would call them SORMs because we spell it with an O for some reason.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
But anyway, selective estrogen receptor modulators. SERMs. So what they do is they can actually bind to the receptors that we find most useful. So for example, there are estrogen receptors in the bone, beta estrogen receptors, and those are the ones that the soy tends to prefer. And there are alpha estrogen receptors in the womb and in the breast, and they are generally not preferring those. So when you think about how your body uses soy products, what actually happens is your body uses it to strengthen the bone and to reduce your risk of breast cancer and reproductive organ cancers. It's actually the completely opposite to what you might expect.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
People see the word phytoestrogen, and they get really worried that that means they're going to grow man boobs or whatever it might be. But phyto meaning plant, and estrogen obviously meaning estrogen is a very different beast to mammalian equivalent estrogen. Let's take an example, if you're drinking a milkshake that's made from cow's milk, you're going to be getting a huge amount of bio equivalent estrogen because that cow was most likely pregnant, and she was definitely lactating to produce the milk. And of course, her estrogen levels would be high. And you're drinking the product of her estrogen levels. So there's no question that when you have dairy versus soy milk, there's really no comparison in terms of the amount of estrogen that you will actually be getting and how your body uses it is also very different. So I do want to make that point.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
Women in countries such as Japan who've traditionally had a dairy minimal diet and have had a soy maximal diet, like they tend to have things like miso paste and edamame beans and tofu and tempe. These women generally don't suffer from menopausal symptoms. They might not even necessarily have a word for it in Japanese, which I find really interesting.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
SO I think it's just quite helpful to understand that there are a lot of different ways in which our bodies are not only exposed to estrogen but also estrogen stimulators, which is nothing to do with soy products. So certain plastic products actually mimic the effects of estrogen in our bodies and could potentially increase cancer risk. Things like the phytates, for example, that maybe contained in plastics that we drink from, like plastic bottles, plastic containers that we have our food from. We heat them up in the microwave, the plastics then leach out and into the food. We leave a bottle of plastic water bottle out in the sun, the sun heats the plastic, it leaches into our water. We're drinking it. We're eating it. We're drinking and eating those microplastics, which are hormonal mimickers, and they have hormonal effects on our body.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
So if you're worried about soy, try to worry about your plastic water bottle and your cow's milk instead.
Rip Esselstyn:
Exactly. Let's redirect our focus. Yeah. Yeah. Perfect, perfect.
Rip Esselstyn:
Almost the last half of your book, not quite, maybe the last third is beautiful recipes, gorgeous food. How did you come up with so many wonderful recipes?
Dr. Gemma Newman:
It took a lot of work. I had the help of friends who are plant-based chef as well. She gave me some ideas. I wanted to come up with recipes that I use at home but also that people will find easy, comfort foods, foods that people will understand and be able to look for in the shops. What I think sometimes people find difficult when they first transition is that they don always know where to find certain ingredients. It all seems a little bit exotic or a bit different.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
Some of the recipes may not be that familiar to an American audience because they're quite a lot of the British comfort foods.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, mac and cheese is.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
Mac and cheese.
Rip Esselstyn:
We all know mac and cheese. We love it. We love it, love it.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
Yeah. That one is such a great comfort food, isn't it? For me, curry is a great comfort food as well. So I've got one of my favorite curry recipes in there as well. So yeah, it was about finding recipes that were comfort foods, that you could easily switch to if you had certain favorites that you go to. It was for people who tend to want meat and two veg, and it's to help them to think, "Okay. Well, what could I have instead?" And that's what it's for.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Do you have children?
Dr. Gemma Newman:
I do. I have two sons. They are getting older now. One's nine and one's six.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh, that doesn't sound too old. That sounds like they're in their prime. I've got a seven, 11, and 13 year old. So I am kind of right there with you. It's a great age.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
And how are they? Are they into this Plant-Strong lifestyle that you're doing?
Dr. Gemma Newman:
They are into it. We're all Plant-Strong in our household. My oldest son is particularly into it because he was one of the first people in our household to make the connection between the chicken that we eat on our plate and where it comes from. So for him, he has a very strong ethical stance that he doesn't want to eat animals because that's something that he really connected with from a very young age, which I think is another lovely root to enjoying a Plant-Strong lifestyle.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
I took him to a local farm, and we were collecting eggs. And he said, "Where does the chicken come from, mummy?" He was very young, and I said, "Oh, it comes from the muscles. The muscle of the chicken." And he was asking me how we get it, and I wasn't prepared for this conversation. He was talking about how does the chicken die, and how does it get killed? And he was really taking it in and understanding it for the first time. I said to him, "Look, if you don't want to eat chickens, you don't have to." He said, "I don't want to eat chickens." I said, "Fine. You don't have to do that."
Dr. Gemma Newman:
So that was an interesting turning point for him. So he took ownership of that, and it helped him then feel excited about our Plant-Strong life.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Yeah. Our children are so amazing. They are so amazing, and they teach us every day.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
Yeah. It's that wonderful fresh perspective. They haven't yet had all the conditioning of life.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, I want you to know what a lovely time I've had meeting you, Gemma, and you're just such a wealth of information. Your book The Plant Power Doctor is absolutely... It's gorgeous. It's informative. You lay it out in such the simple understandable way. You've got a lot to be proud of there. And I can't wait to have you back so we can dive into 15 other subjects that you talk about in this book.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
I would absolutely love to come back, and I have thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyed our conversation. You've really pumped me up with the Plant-Strong ethos. And I'm really excited to talk about any other topic that you wish about the book, and there's plenty that we could deep dive into.
Rip Esselstyn:
I would love it.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
Thank you so much.
Rip Esselstyn:
Thank you. And keep doing all your great work there saving lives in slow motion, which is what you're doing over there. Saving lives in slow motion. Go, Dr. Gemma, go.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
Thank you. Aw, I love that you remember my phrase.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh yeah. Let's do this, ready, follow me. Peace.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
Peace.
Rip Esselstyn:
Turn it around. Engine Two.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
Engine Two.
Rip Esselstyn:
Then hit me up, Plant-Strong.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
Plant-Strong.
Rip Esselstyn:
All right. I'll see you next time.
Dr. Gemma Newman:
Bye, Rip.
Rip Esselstyn:
There's no doubt this is the beginning of many appearances to come for Gemma. Her energy is contagious, and I think you'll agree her knowledge of the body and of the body of research is unparalleled. We'll share the link to purchase her book in the show notes for this episode at plantstrongpodcast.com.
Rip Esselstyn:
It's undeniable the medical practices both here and in the UK are burdened with so much competing information, lack of time, and a fast-paced, fix it now society. But with doctors like Gemma Newman fighting for longterm health and vitality, we are on the right path and we hope you'll stay right here with us.
Rip Esselstyn:
Next week, I'm chatting it up with my sister Jane Esselstyn. Of course, many of you are aware of her fabulous cooking and YouTube channel with my mother Ann Crile Esselstyn. But Jane is also a long time registered nurse, and when she's not working on new recipes and projects, she teaches sex education to middle schoolers. Next week, we dish about sexual health, the importance of communication with your partner, and how just like everything else, a healthy sex life is built upon healthy habits. Plus, we ask our community to share questions they wanted answered and were too afraid to ask. Don't miss it.
Rip Esselstyn:
See you next week.
Rip Esselstyn:
Thank you for listening to the Plant-Strong Podcast. You can take a quick minute to follow us wherever you listen to your favorite podcast. Leaving us a positive review and sharing the show with your network is another great way to help us reach as many people as possible with the exciting news about plants.
Rip Esselstyn:
Thank you in advance for your support. It means everything.
Rip Esselstyn:
Have you had your own Galileo moment that you'd like to share? What happened when you stepped into the arena and shed the beliefs that you thought to be true? I'd love to hear about it. Visit plantstrongpodcast.com to submit your story and to learn more about today's guest and sponsors.
Rip Esselstyn:
The Plant-Strong Podcast team includes Carrie Barrett, Laurie Kortowich, Ami Mackey, Patrick Gavin, and Wade Clark. This season is dedicated to all of those courageous truth seekers who weren't afraid to look through the lens with clear vision and hold firm to a higher truth. Most notably, my parents, Dr. Caldwell B Esselstyn Jr. and Ann Crile Esselstyn. Thanks for listening.
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