#214: Colleen Patrick-Goudreau - Become a Joyful Vegan
Colleen Patrick-Goudreau is The Joyful Vegan
Rip welcomes Colleen Patrick-Goudreau, “The Joyful Vegan,” to the PLANTSTRONG Podcast for a long overdue celebration of the massive growth and interest in all things plant-based - especially in the 15-20 years.
An empath and advocate her whole life, Patrick-Goudreau, first began her life’s purpose and awakening at age 19 after reading John Robbins’ Diet for a New America and then later, Slaughterhouse: The Shocking Story of Greed, Neglect, and Inhumane Treatment Inside the U.S. Meat Industry by investigative journalist Gail Eisnitz.
This awakening led to her life’s work, which now includes multiple books, podcasts, radio/TV appearances, cooking classes, and group vegan trips around the world.
Today, she and Rip discuss:
Her Awareness, Sensitivity, and Compassion toward animal suffering as a young girl
Finding a Balance in Activism and Emotional Well-being
Being a Joyful Vegan: Finding Wonder and Gratitude in Veganism
Struggles and Difficulties of Coming Out as Vegan to Family
Developing Empathic Communication Skills
Managing Emotions and Compassion in Difficult Interactions
The Power of Openness, Vulnerability, and Compassion in Conversations
Finding a Balance between Belonging vs. Staying True to Values
Overcoming Challenges in Relationships with Different Diets
Effective Advocacy and Communication in Relationships
“Eating the Rainbow” and Exploring Different Phytochemicals and Their Colors
Exploring Culinary Delights in France and Italy with her Joyful Vegan Trips
Her Passion for History and What it Can Teach Us About the Present
If you’re a fan of Colleen’s, then, of course, you’ll love this episode. If you’re not familiar with Colleen and her work, prepare to be impacted by her deep, deep compassion and empathy for all of life, and especially how to help others in their own transitions.
Learn more and order The Joyful Vegan
About Colleen Patrick-Goudreau
Colleen Patrick-Goudreau, affectionately known as the joyful vegan, is a recognized expert and thought leader on the culinary, social, ethical, and practical aspects of living compassionately and healthfully. A long-time animal advocate and vegan, Patrick-Goudreau is a bestselling author of seven books, an acclaimed speaker, producer of one of the longest-running podcasts, a regular contributor to National Public Radio, and the host of luxury vegan trips around the world. She can be found at JoyfulVegan.com.
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Full Episode Transcript via AI Transcription
I gotta give a shout-out to our new pancake and waffle mixes that we introduced about a month ago.
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To order your stack of pancakes today, simply go to plantstrongfoods.com.
Introduction and Mission of Plant Strong Podcast
[1:14]I'm Rip Esselstyn and welcome to the Plant Strong Podcast. The mission at Plant Strong is to further the advancement of all things within the plant-based movement.
We advocate for the scientifically proven benefits of plant-based living and envision a world that universally understands, promotes, and prescribes plants as a solution to empowering your health, enhancing your performance, restoring the environment, and becoming better guardians to the animals we share this planet with.
We welcome you wherever you are on your PlantStrong journey, and I hope that you enjoy the show.
At the tender age of 19, My guest read Diet for a New America by John Robbins.
And her life's awakening and vocation began in earnest. Today, 30 years later, Colleen Patrick-Goudreau, affectionately known as the Joyful Vegan, is a recognized expert and thought leader on the aspects of living compassionately and healthfully.
She's the best-selling author of seven books, podcast host, and the host of vegan trips, all around the world.
[2:31]Colleen released her first book in 2005, four years before my first book, The Engine 2 Diet was released.
And I've been a great admirer of her work for many years. Today, we have a long overdue catch up about the fascinating twists and turns that our lives have taken.
And we celebrate the massive growth and interest in all things plant-based, especially in the 15 to 20 years that we've been doing this work.
[2:59]If you're a fan of Colleen's, then of course, you're gonna love this episode.
And if you're not familiar with Colleen and her work, prepare to be impacted by her deep compassion, and empathy for all of life, and especially how to help others in their own transitions.
Please welcome the joyful vegan, Colleen Patrick-Goodreau.
Introduction to the Podcast and Guest
[3:26]Colleen Welcome to the plantstrong podcast Thank you for having me. It's so good to see you rip. It's great to see you. It's been a while, Yeah, it's been a long time a little too long. Yeah, uh, you know, You've had your own podcast for what 16 years. Is that right? That's in the 17th year.
[3:45]That's incredible that you that you had the, kind of the vision and uh really tenacity to start that 17 years ago.
I mean, you were probably one of the first ones.
I think so. Yeah, it's tenacity, naivete, whatever you want to call it.
I didn't quite know what a podcast was when I started podcasting, but I knew I had a microphone and a soundboard and I had things to say.
So I just used it and it's been working ever since.
Yeah. And what's the name of your podcast?
Food for Thought. Food for Thought. Well, so, there's a lot for us to think about here today.
You've created quite an ecosystem with your brand, with your advocacy work.
It is truly remarkable and impressive.
I didn't quite know the scope of it until I started diving in to research our conversation today.
So huge congrats on what you've been able to achieve, your platform, and all the people you're reaching with your joyful vegan message. It's fantastic. Thank you.
[4:55]Yeah. So what I would love to start with is for people that don't know who you are and your passion for the vegan world, Will you just kind of give us a little background on the household that you grew up in and what that.
[5:17]Looked like? Sure. Oh my gosh. I was just talking about this the other day. We were at a winery and.
[5:22]You know, we all hear the things. I mean, I love the interaction as soon as I say I'm vegan. I love the moment that the person I'm talking to who's not vegan responds with usually their story, right? And their limitations and their challenges and their desires and their fears. And I love those interactions and we were at this winery and you know I talk a lot in my work about how to have those interactions and do it in a way that feels productive and authentic and so he you know we said we're vegan and as soon as I knew what was coming next and oh I'd be vegan except you know I grew up you know eating meat. I grew up eating meat, I grew up eating dairy, grew up eating cheese, I grew up eating all of it. Now there's going to be generations like your children's generation who can say they never have. But I think for most of us, we did grow up eating, you know, animal products and I was no exception. So I grew up in the East Coast, grew up in New Jersey, and I've been in California 24, 25 years. And I grew up eating all of it and loved it, liked it.
Ate it, didn't know really what I was eating. And my father owned an ice cream store, so we had lots of treats and ice cream and dairy and hot chocolate machines and a freezer full of ice cream all the time.
And I was also someone who loved animals. I was one of those kids, and I'm still one of those people who loves to be around animals.
I love to watch them, I love to observe them, just be near them.
[6:46]But I always say you don't have to love animals to not wanna hurt them.
And I just happened to be one of those kids who really, really connected with animals.
And so when I started kind of getting a sense that I was eating animals, I made my excuses, kept eating what I was eating, because I do think we have developed our habits.
[7:07]Our eating habits, by the time we're probably five or six, right?
So when people say, I'm 60, I'm 50, I'm 80, I could never change, It's like, it doesn't take a different amount of time to make a change when you're 30 versus when you're 80 versus when you're 10 because we have established those habits so early on.
And so I developed the taste for meat and dairy and eggs. And it wasn't until I was about 19 that I picked up Diet for a New America. That was my foray into this world thanks to John Robbins writing that book.
And it was the first time I had ever, ever seen pictures of factory farms had ever really realized what I was doing to my health, to my body, to the animals, to the earth, all of it.
But I continued eating eggs and dairy. I stopped eating land animals.
And that started me on the journey. And I was working in a health food store when I was in my early 20s.
I was always very interested in doing the right thing. I was an animal advocate.
As soon as I became vegetarian, I became an animal advocate.
So, you know, we're all on this journey, we're all in a different part of the spectrum, but I kept going and the book that kind of pushed me over was a book called Slaughterhouse.
And it was the awareness of the culture of violence that I was creating that really just moved me to.
[8:31]Didn't even move me, I had no say in the matter.
I was just, it just put me over and I couldn't be part of what.
[8:39]Really is a culture of violence. I couldn't be part of paying other people to do things that desensitize them to their own compassion and to the suffering of the animals.
And so I became vegan. And I say it in quotes like that because I talk a lot about that process of becoming vegan, right? We talk about it like we become something different than we were.
[8:59]And I've thought a lot about this and I've heard from thousands of people and I just don't think we become something different than we were.
I think we actually let go of the blocks that actually stopped us from being who we really authentically are.
And so authentically, I think we are people who wanna do the right thing, who wanna feel good, who wanna eat well, who wanna be well, who want to not hurt anyone.
And I think for me, that's what that process was, is was literally letting go of the blocks to the compassion that was already inside of me.
And so that's how I see my work is, I don't feel like I'm telling anybody anything they don't already know.
I feel like I'm kind of helping get rid of all of the muck that stops people from being authentically who they are.
And compassion has always been the foundation of my work, whether it's self-compassion or compassion for animals.
[9:49]Compassion for people.
And so vegan for me is the way to manifest my compassion in the most effortless way, in the most authentic way, the most consistent way.
But for me, the goal is not to be vegan.
The goal is to be as compassionate and to be as healthy as possible.
Vegan just happens to be a pretty a pretty good way to achieve that.
So you talk about how as a kid you were super super empathetic to the suffering of animals um maybe even or maybe not more than most kids like i've got three kids my youngest is nine and she like she had a tick on her yesterday.
[10:33]And she refused to kill the tick.
She like took it outside and put it on the grass, right?
[10:40]And if she sees anybody doing anything that is remotely not kind and compassionate to a dog, a cat, a duck, you name it, she will literally like go and talk to them about it, right?
Right? We want, we were driving back from our farm, and it was like 98 degrees, and there were all these lambs in the back of this, double-decker trailer, must have been 400 of them.
And she insisted on going and talking to the driver. And this was at the age of probably six or seven.
Heightened sensitivity and compassion towards suffering
[11:19]Most kids I know aren't like that. My other two kids aren't like that.
But that kind of, to me, resonated, and it made me think that maybe you were kind of a little bit more like that.
You just had a little bit more of a sensitivity to that.
Is that at all accurate? Yeah, I think that's the way to put it, the sensitivity, right? Because I don't think my compassion is any different from anybody else who doesn't feel compelled to do that. But there definitely has always been a heightened sensitivity.
[11:50]Whether I saw it in person or I saw it in movies, I actually talk in, I think in one of the podcast episodes about when I went to see Benji for the first time.
I don't know if you remember that movie. It was based on a book and it was this story of this dog who is kind of a homeless dog and he was beloved by these children in this family who didn't have a mother.
And so the housekeeper would always help, like allow them to feed this dog.
And it was the adventures of this dog. But there was the scene where the children were kidnapped and Benji tried to save them.
And there was another dog, Benji had fallen in love with Tiffany.
And there's a scene where Tiffany gets kicked, and Benji, I literally can feel myself welling up talking about this scene, as I'm telling you about this scene.
And it was so painful to me, and when I saw this movie, I was six years old when my mother took me to see this movie in the theater, and she had to carry me out during that scene because I was sobbing so hard.
And that did not leave me in my adulthood. I have movies that we went to see in adulthood, still happens to me where I it's it's so painful. I feel the.
[13:02]That's what compassion is, right? Feeling what someone else is feeling, is feeling with, it's feeling that pain that someone else is feeling.
It's true, I can't deny that. I do have a heightened sensitivity when it comes to suffering, but it includes people as well.
I mean, I've always been like that, even when I was a child, if there was anyone who cried, today, if someone cries, I cry, like I can't help it.
So there's definitely a heightened sensitivity, but I don't think the compassion itself is unique.
Think some some of us are more compelled than others to actually just kind of you know act on it well you so you mentioned uh benji and you also talk about in several of your books you know other.
[13:44]Um shows that have animals that are being like mistreated egregiously so and like, whether it's Dumbo, right? I think something Bambi, Charlotte's Web, right? Black Beauty. And what do you think all that's about?
Mm-hmm. Well, I think this, the stories themselves, well, I mean, even going further than that, so not even talking about the stories, the childhood stories that we read or have read to us about animal cruelty, but let's even go beyond that or start with the fact that, all of the ways that we're taught the most basic developmental skills use animals.
So as games, as movies, as books, teaching tools to teach us how to read, to teach us how to count, to teach us how to spell, to teach us how to be kind social beings, all All of these tools use animals, these kind of talking animals.
So in all these ways, we know that children are connected to animals.
So again, you don't have to be super, super sensitive like me.
[15:01]But we know that animals are connected to each other. And we know that they're connected to each other.
We know that children are connected to animals. And so we use animals as a way to teach children because we know that they're gonna be connected to them.
And we also use our relationship with animals, especially as children, as a barometer for mental wellness.
We know that if a child is unkind to an animal, we have known this for a century.
We have known that it's a sign, it's a red flag, that they could potentially not only hurt other animals, but hurt people as well.
And we can look at that when we look at the most violent offenders, we can look at serial killers and we can look at their history goes back to cruelty to animals.
So we use our connection with animals as a barometer for mental health.
And I think we know that instinctively.
And then those stories, I mean, some of those stories, Bambi, which was Disney-fied, was a book written by Felix Salton as an anti-hunting book.
It's an incredible book. I mean, I really encourage your listeners to read it.
We just know the Bambi version of the story, but he wrote it as a book, as an anti-hunting book.
Charlotte's Web as well. So some of these authors are just like us who just want to convey their message in the medium they're familiar with or the medium they know.
And a lot of people have been changed by these stories, by Black Beauty, I remember that movie.
[16:19]I remember the Black Stallion. I remember Bambi. Dumbo, the most painful scene when his mother's rocking him. She's through the cage, the bars.
[16:32]So I just, I think we are incredibly connected to animals. That goes back to, I talk a lot about language and how the words and expressions we have are rooted in so many, so many animal-related roots and expressions.
I mean, we are deeply, deeply connected to other animals. And I think, again, it goes back to what I said earlier.
I think we really do ourselves a disservice when we're removing these connections because I think it's that, that really creates.
Creates this strain on our own hearts. I mean, we have to avoid looking at animal cruelty because it's so painful, especially if we're eating animals, because we know that we're gonna be compelled to change, and change, I think, is what we're afraid of more than anything, because it's difficult to make changes.
So I think most of us avoid looking at what happens to animals because we know that we're compassionate and we know that we're gonna feel that pain.
And I think when, so I use the word effortless when I became vegan.
I think becoming vegan is challenging for people. That's why I do the work like the 30-Day Vegan Challenge because transitioning can be difficult and so there's new habits to learn.
[17:42]But once you are on the other side, and this goes whether you're doing it for health or for ethics, once you're on the other side, I talk about it being effortless because you no longer have to make excuses.
You just sink into who you really are and what you really believe in.
And the amount of work and energy we have to put into avoiding looking or avoiding making changes or making those excuses, it's a lot more effort than once you're on the other side of those changes and it just becomes second nature.
So again, there was liberation when I had the shift and I hear that from a lot of people who just feel more relaxed.
When you get on the other side of it, because we never have to again wake up knowing that we have to kind of make excuses for doing the things that really are anathema to our own, you know, our own morals and values and ethics.
You articulate all that so incredibly well. Tell me this, when you, like when you saw or read Slaughterhouse and you read Diet for New America, and you've maybe watched some documentaries about, you know, what goes on in these slaughterhouses.
[18:58]Is that something that you're okay, like, do you feel like you need to see that and watch it?
Or are you at a point where, I'm just wondering because of your heightened sensitivity, if you know what it's about and you don't need to go there any longer.
Yeah, yeah, that's a good question. So the book, The Joyful Vegan, I talk about the stages of becoming vegan, right? This process we go through and the first stage is the voracious consumption of information. So once we have the thing that kind of opens our eyes, we then want to get validation. So we watch all these documentaries, again, health related or animal related, we read all the books, etc. And so that stage is really bearing witness and really kind of taking in all of the things we cannot believe we never knew before.
And so once we have that, we do kind of consume all of that.
The downside is that we can over consume and that can be dangerous as well.
Whether we become really obsessed and become a little too rigid in our eating that can happen when it comes to health, but also from the animal perspective, we can really get what has been typically called compassion fatigue. I don't like the word compassion.
[20:04]I don't like the term compassion fatigue. I feel like compassion is actually the solution.
We're not fatigued of compassion. I prefer empathic response because we're like kind of overly feeling.
So all that's to say is, I do think once we kind of have that in our bones, it's not like we have to go visit it every day, but I do think even after some time for, again, health or ethics, I do think revisiting them every so often helpful because I think we can forget. I think we can forget, especially if we don't have community, especially if it's not part of our everyday lives, if we don't have people in our lives who are like-minded, I think we can forget. I talk about the difference between looking and staring, so I do think we have to kind of go and be open and bear witness every so often, but that doesn't mean we have to dwell there. And I think that's where it gets dangerous for people is if it.
Finding a Balance in Activism and Emotional Well-being
[21:00]Traumatizes you or if it leaves you feeling despondent rather than motivated, then just check yourself first.
Again, on this extreme, I do feel like there are activists who feel like they have to look all the time because if they don't, they're not being true to the animals and I think that can be really dangerous because I don't think that's helpful for us, but I do think it's a matter of finding a balance between kind of bearing witness every so often, checking yourself, checking your mood, and I have to do that if I'm already feeling, you know, in a sad state, or I'm feeling vulnerable, I'm not gonna go masochistically watch something that's gonna be really painful, but I do visit it every so often so that I can, it does motivate me, it doesn't get me down, it makes me wanna keep doing my work more.
So you have to check yourself to make sure that you're motivated rather than depressed.
[21:54]So you just mentioned the Joyful Vegan. I happen to have a copy right here in front of me that I have been reading, and you really, have done a remarkable job pouring just your heart, your soul into this book.
Congratulations. And this came out in 2019.
Tell me, why did you decide on the title Joyful Vegan? Because that's who I am.
I am, you know, it's so authentic for me. Obviously I'm setting myself up for criticism or failure because I actually don't feel the pressure to feel, to be joyful all the time.
And there's a difference between being happy and joyful. And for me, joyful means more than just being happy.
It actually means integrity and commitment to self-care.
Joyful Vegan: Finding Wonder and Gratitude in Veganism
[22:52]And seeing the world with a sense of wonder and gratitude. And that's what joyful means to me.
It's not just being happy. And that's what being vegan has done for me.
It just really resonates with me because if this didn't feel good, none of us would continue doing this, right?
Because the truth is, as much as there are more options out there than before, and we can travel, and we can eat out, and we can see, and more and more people are vegan and plant-based, et cetera, we are still not part of the status quo.
We still have to work a little harder and we're asking for what we want.
We still have to consider these things. We still have to have these conversations with people.
If it didn't feel so good, who would want to go through, you know, constantly like calling yourself out you know, making yourself, you know.
Be the potential recipient of jokes and, you know, defensive, all of it, right? So it just feels good.
And so that's authentic for me. And I want to reflect that to the world. And that's why that's been part of my brand. Originally, my brand was Compassionate Cooks, because I started doing a lot of my work through food and cooking classes and recipes. And that's still my, you know.
[24:02]The name of my LLC. But Joyful Vegan really resonated with me as a brand, as an orientation to the world and as a way to mirror back for other people who want that. Because it can be so laden with sadness and anger and just heightened awareness and all of it. So I want to be able to say, listen, you can do both. You can live with purpose and you can be passionate and you can be an activist and you can be an advocate and you can show up and you can still be joyful and you and you can still know that there's horrible things happening in the world, but you still don't have to sink into that.
You can still be joyful, you can still be grateful, and you can still be hopeful.
And that's a huge part of being a joyful vegan.
So I wanted to mirror that back to people. So people who are attracted to that, they come to me, the people who think that just means that I'm, I don't know, Pollyanna, or not really serious or what have you, then I'm not for them.
But it does, I think, reflect people who are interested in also being joyful.
So you started the podcast almost 17 years ago. This is, if I'm not mistaken, your eighth book.
Thank you for watching this video.
[25:17]Why the joyful vegan as your last book? I mean, what along the continuum was it that was like, you know what, it's time that I write this book.
This is an important book for me now on this journey that I'm on.
[25:38]What were the road signs or the flags that let you know that it was time for you to get this out into the universe?
Thanks for asking. So I had started doing a podcast series called the 10 Stages of What Happens When You Stop Eating Animals.
And what I had started doing, and this was probably about 10 years ago, when I started identifying these stages, and I call them stages, Rip.
There's no other better word that I've been able to find for them.
They're not linear, they're not mandatory, but they do seem to be the experiences most people have when they experience this transition, again, whether it's for health or ethics, is these common threads that run through everyone's story, even though the details might be different.
So I started doing, I started basically piecing these together and seeing patterns and seeing threads.
And I started doing a series on that. And I started hearing back from people thanking me for mirroring back to them what their experiences were and naming them.
Because I think a lot of people can feel alone. I think a lot of people can feel like they're crazy, like they're the only ones experiencing this.
And I think people can also feel that they are overdoing it in any one of these things.
So I started, you know, kind of creating these threads.
Are there 11 stages? I don't know, are there really nine?
Who knows, but I've made 10. And so the 10 stages are these experiences.
I said the voracious consumption of information.
[27:02]Remorse, having eaten the way we ate and contributed to violence against animals is one of the stages.
Coming out when we tell our friends and family, you know, that this is kind of who we are now and how we're eating and what that looks like.
The anger a lot of people feel, whether it's, you know, that I was raised this way and I had no idea that I was contributing to ill health for myself and my family, or I had no idea I was contributing to violence against animals.
And all these people I've talked about, I've talked to about, you know, being vegan, the benefits haven't made any changes because one of the stages is also evangelism.
We all go through this enthusiasm and passion we wanna share with people in our lives.
Community, communication.
[27:45]All of these are different stages. So I started doing them as a podcast and it really resonated with my listeners.
And so I really wanted to write it as a book and I'm glad I did.
I think it suffered from COVID a bit. The book tour was canceled, of course, when COVID came about. This book came out at the end of 2019, but I'm so glad it's out there and just in this form, I could have kept just doing cookbooks.
I've always done more than just food. I've always talked about the social on the emotional aspects.
And I guess to answer your question also, I see it almost as a sequel to the 30-day vegan challenge because the 30-day vegan challenge is really the food, the nutrition, all of the transition questions people have.
What about when I eat out? And what about my family? And what about holidays?
And how do I plate a meal? Like what does it look like to have a main dish?
And what about protein?
And what about B12? And what about that, right? So 30-day vegan challenge helps people through the transition of becoming vegan.
And then I feel like Joyful Vegan is the process of being vegan because we don't just stop when we become vegan.
There's all these other things that are happening. So I feel like this is more on the social and emotional and cultural aspects of being vegan to enable people to just stand really firm in it, be really confident, be unapologetic and find the joy in manifesting your values.
So it just made sense to follow the 30-Day Vegan Challenge with this book.
[29:09]You mentioned in there as one of your 10 was coming out, right? Coming out as vegan.
[29:18]And like, tell me what happened when you came out as being vegan with your family, with your dad, who used to have a ice cream store.
Struggles and Difficulties of Coming Out as Vegan to Family
[29:29]And, you know, it sounds like your whole family grew up eating, you know, the typical American, standard American fare.
Did they get it, or did they have to...
[29:43]Struggle with Colleen being very difficult. They've always, they've always had to struggle with Colleen being very difficult.
I've always been my own, my own person, for sure. Shouldn't have surprised them, to be honest.
No, it didn't go well. And you know, a lot of my experiences and what I can pull from is my own experience of going through all the evangelism and the coming out and you know, kind of how I handled it.
I didn't handle it beautifully when I first came out, especially to my family.
I think the family is the hardest.
For sure, I think the family is the hardest. And I think a lot of it has to do with, our parents are the ones who are kind of instilling these values in us, and not just values, but habits.
And so I feel like it's a real affront to them, or they feel like it's an affront to them when we make such a drastic change, especially if it's very different than how we were raised.
So I think all that was happening. I didn't know it then, I was young and passionate, and I was definitely evangelizing or vegangelizing as we like to say.
And it didn't go well. I remember- Are you out of the house?
Are you out of the house? I was out of the house by then.
I was out of the house when I was vegetarian.
And I remember the first Thanksgiving or the first, I don't know, Sunday roast I had at my mother's who was on her own. I was in my own place. And I remember she made a roast for me.
[31:05]I mean, I used to eat roasts and she used to make them in the crock pot they were very tender and all of that.
And I used to like them with the potatoes or the stew, delicious.
And she made it for me and I was like, no, I'm vegetarian, I'm not eating that.
Oh, but you'll eat it for me because I made it.
[31:25]No, like it was that kind of conflict, which is very common, where, you know, but I made it, I went through the trouble of making it for you.
Why would you do this to us? And I remember those conversations.
What was wrong with the way I raised you? What was wrong with the way I fed you?
There's nothing wrong with what I've done, right? So very personal attack, even though I never said that, but that's, you know, that's- It's implied, I guess, yeah.
It's implied and, you know, it's inferred by them and, you know, whatever's going on with them, even if I did it as beautifully as possible, that still can happen.
And that's part of what I've learned, obviously, over the years, is to be able to coach people on what that looks like and how to be sensitive to what other people are going through, that it's not about us, that what is happening is that we're holding up a mirror to them.
And maybe she did feel guilty, and maybe she did feel bad, and maybe she knew she had to make some changes in her own life, right?
Who knows? It doesn't matter. It's not about me. But.
[32:23]Those are the kinds of things that happened. My father, yeah, same thing.
I remember him also taking it personally. I don't think it was specifically about the dairy per se, but it went on for years.
And I think I had a breakthrough with my mother many years later.
By then, I was not living in the house and then by the time I became vegan, I was not even living in the state. I was 3,000 miles away.
To think things would have been a little different. Maybe I would have had more of an impact on their everyday eating had I stayed in New Jersey.
But as it was, when my mother was visiting me, she always ate vegan when she came to visit.
My mother died in 2020.
[32:59]She always ate vegan when she came to visit, but we had a conversation before she was coming one time where she said something like, so if I wanna have fish, I wanna be able to have fish because I know you don't want me to have fish, but I wanna have fish.
And I was like, okay, all right.
I didn't know this was a thing. I didn't know that you wanted to have fish so badly, and I never told you you couldn't have fish. You're not gonna have it in our house, but if we go out, if you really want fish, fine.
But it was the moment, Rip, that I realized that I hadn't sat down with my mother to tell her how it felt to be in the presence of someone, especially someone I love, consuming an animal.
[33:42]And so I said, listen, you can do whatever you want. I want you to know that.
I'm not telling you how to eat. I'm not telling you you can't do that.
I just want you to know what it feels like when before I knew it didn't have any impact on me, but now that I know, it's sad.
It just makes me sad. And so you can do it, but I just want you to know that.
And it was like, she came and she never ate any animal products.
She never ordered anything in front of me. I think she really understood because I had never just really expressed the emotional aspect of what it feels like.
And that's what a lot of people feel. Thanksgiving when everyone's eating this bird. You know, when I was growing up, I never saw the suffering. But when you're looking through a different lens, you just see the world differently.
And what is part of this coming out process is understanding that the people around us who love us don't see the world that way. And so not begrudging them not seeing it that way, just the way we don't want them to begrudge us now that we do see it that way. So there's so much more than just the food. There's so much more. It's about relationships and communication and autonomy and boundaries and compassion and understanding. So there's so much more that happens in this, you know, in this topic. But what an opportunity to be able to practice all of those things around this particular topic.
No, you're right.
[35:10]A ton to unpack. And that to me is what is the brilliance of the joyful vegan, how you've done such a great job unpacking that whole thing. You have a story in there that I'd like to you for you to share with the audience. And it's again, it's coming out and you had some good friends that from New Jersey, they came out to visit you in California. And they they came with milkshakes in hand and you had a kind of an awkward conversation with them.
[35:45]Can you talk about that? It's just, these are the moments that you just learn, you know, cause we had a vegan household and then we were, I was really newly vegan.
I was really newly vegan. You said you were, you were a raw vegan and you didn't mean like fruits and vegetables.
No, just completely raw. Like all of my insides were on the outside, right?
New Lens: Being Vegan and Looking Through a Different Perspective
[36:06]You just feel everything. And again, you're kind of looking through this new lens and that they're not looking through, my friends who we knew back in New Jersey.
I had been vegetarian by the time I met my then boyfriend, now husband, when we were in New Jersey, we moved out to California together, we met in New Jersey and these were his friends from high school.
And so they knew me always as vegetarian, but not vegan. They knew David as a meat eater who then also became vegan.
And so they had seen me eating animal products, obviously.
[36:41]And we had a vegan household, which comes from this place of, I don't wanna bring any of this stuff into my house because it just represents pain and suffering and violence.
And so I would do it differently today, but they came in the house very innocently, excited to see us, and they're drinking these milkshakes.
And my dilemma was, how do I tell them but I don't want them to have these milkshakes in our house.
How do I tell them? And I did, I told them.
As they're drinking their milkshakes, made with dairy milk, to be clear, not plant-based milk.
And it was so awkward because, you know, they were very good about it and they were like, do you want us to leave?
Like, we can put them outside the door. Like, is that what you want?
And I think I was like, no, like, it's okay. You have it now, but like for next time.
[37:31]So it was really awkward. And what I would do differently today is I would wait until, you know, if it happens, I would wait until after the scenario where, you know, just to kind of head it off of the past next time to say like, hey, no problem.
Just so you know, you know, love to see you. Can't wait to see you.
You know, we don't have any products in our house, you know, so just, you know, whatever, just note that.
Like that, so that it's not happening at the moment, because they probably walked away not with, oh, what a wonderful way to live. What a joyful way to live. I'd like some of that. They probably walked away with, what a nutbag, right? I mean, just because, or how intolerant, like how unkind or whatever. I don't even know what they thought. I could ask them. We're still friends today. And maybe they don't even remember it, but I remember it as one of those, you know, kind of pivotal moments where I went, yeah, I could have done that better.
And so I hope others learn from it. Yeah.
Well, what's interesting about all that is just how when someone becomes vegan, and this is for these listeners that maybe have just become plant-based or vegan, however you want to couch it, and how it really does rock the people around you, it rocks their world.
[38:53]And as you said in The Joyful Vegan, to you it just felt like a natural progression of Colleen being your most authentic self, right?
Which is so absolutely beautiful, but to family and friends, as we're talking about with these stories, it feels like a huge slap in the face. Yeah.
[39:12]And so to figure out like, okay, how could I have done that differently?
How would I present the conversation about this so that it's not such a slap in the face to me is an incredible tool for people to have.
[39:29]It is vital. And again, it's just walking this line. It doesn't mean you never speak up for yourself.
It doesn't mean you don't advocate for yourself. It doesn't mean you don't raise awareness.
All of these things have to happen.
That's authentic. What's not authentic is if you're holding back because you're afraid of how other people are going to respond, right? So there's an art to it, there really is.
And you can learn it, everyone can learn it. These are communication skills, these are social skills.
We can learn them.
It's that art of understanding where we end and another person begins, understanding the impact we have when we show up.
And I talk about this social media post just the other day, just saying I'm vegan.
Like you're not even saying don't bring milkshakes into my house.
You just say I'm vegan.
That already can throw people off, right?
That doesn't mean you don't say I am vegan, it means you understand the impact so that you understand the reaction so that you're again not taking it personally just like you don't want them to take you being vegan personally.
We need to understand all the stuff that's happening for other people or that just that things are happening for other people in our lives when we just show up, especially different, you know.
Veganism and Communication Skills
[40:36]The I am vegan impacts people whether they knew us before we were vegan or not, but even, and especially the people who knew us before, understanding what that means.
And so learning that communication, those communication skills, I think it's vital, and it's gonna enhance your communication skills in all aspects of your life, right?
Tell me this.
So I can tell you as a male, and you are truly one of the OGs, one of the old gangsters in this vegan plant-based arena.
[41:10]And I find it hard to say, but now all of a sudden I feel that way too, right?
When did you write your first book?
Do you remember what year? 2006. 2006, okay.
I was 2009. And so, yeah, so you were, I mean, you were before my father wrote, Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease.
Colin Campbell wrote the China Study in 2005. Sue, you're right there with some really great company, but I can't tell you as a male.
Especially when I was a firefighter, the amount of belittling, harassment, and comments that I basically put up with. And I tell people, you just have to have a thick skin.
And I'm wondering, being a female, and the world that you traversed, did you get a lot of belittling comments and, you know, barbs thrown at you, or not?
[42:10]Yeah, I mean, I started, my activism started with going on the street and handing out pamphlets and playing videos of Meet Your Meat.
So I was looking, I was looking for it, I wasn't looking for barbs, but, you know, I put myself right in the center.
And I, my activism also started at the Unitarian Church. We became members of Unitarian Church here in Oakland, we're not members anymore, but it's a very social justice oriented community.
And I was looking for that when we moved out to California because we had only very few friends.
And so I was at coffee hour tabling with literature about animal rights and food.
I became part of the youth leadership and I was mentoring teenagers.
I started doing lay ministry and I was leading services about animals.
And so I went right in, right, feet first. And so the responses I got varied and they do vary and they're still the same responses.
They're not as much as what you would have gotten specifically gender-based.
[43:15]But they were around, you know, human-based, right?
You care more about animals. What about all these other people suffering, especially in the social justice atmosphere at the Unitarian Church?
And there was definitely that as if we have to choose one over the other, as if because I care about animals, I don't care about humans, which is such a misnomer, obviously.
But it was that kind of thing. And of course, in a place that is more socially justice-oriented, it's disappointing because these are people who are already compassionate, they already care.
[43:48]But it just fed more for me that narrative of really understanding what we do to chip away at what is, I think, innate compassion when we're young.
What happens that we think that we're supposed to put aside compassion and kindness when we're little, and then by the time we're older, we're supposed to compartmentalize it and choose between humans and non-humans or choose between the animals that we are socially acceptably able to care about, like the dogs and cats, but not care about pigs and chickens and cows, right?
So what happens to us that we compartmentalize this? And so I've always been interested in that, and that became even more accentuated, I think, through my early activism.
[44:30]My background is English literature, so drawing upon literature, drawing upon language, etymology, history, all of these things have contributed to the perspective that I bring to where I am now.
And some of that comes from those barbs. Some of it came from, I mean, I started teaching cooking classes, Rip, because people at coffee hour who was reading the literature on, again, health and compassion were saying, okay, I don't know how to cook. I don't know what to do.
And I armed with my master's in English literature was like, I'll show you how to cook.
I had culinary training, but I knew enough and I knew more and I always loved to cook and I always loved food and I always loved wellness. And so I was like, okay, I'll start teaching cooking classes. So some of that comes out of, and some of my best insights have come out of that kind of challenge, those challenges, and I love that.
And I still use all of that for fodder. I use every experience as an opportunity for me to understand more about the world and somebody else, and to also be able to kind of hone my skills in being able to communicate with the people who might be pushing back the hardest.
[45:44]Yeah, man, way to be in getting out there on the front lines and just putting it all out there.
That is, that is so fantastic.
Tell me this, like, you know, throughout the years, especially with some fire chiefs that just got in my face.
Managing Emotions and Compassion in Difficult Interactions
[46:05]I literally found my blood boiling over to where I wanted to get into a fist fight.
Yeah. You know, and that's not very compassionate and that's not, you know, that's not a very good thing.
But I'm wondering, especially with you putting yourself, you know, right in the bullseye.
Is there a trick to not letting your emotions get the best of you?
And you know what I'm talking about, when you feel that inner rage at the person that's in front of you.
And is there a way that, a trick for us to just kind of keep a level head, not get like, you know, in a shouting match?
And, cause I find whenever I get like that, I always regret it.
And it's never a good place to go, typically.
Yeah, for sure. And you know, these are human reactions, obviously, if someone's pushing us and we're defensive and we're protective and all of that, that's all very human, right?
So a lot of what I talk about in terms of our reactions to the world, All of the work we do.
[47:09]Prepare for those interactions happens long before we actually have those interactions.
So this is all the work of our own, you know, kind of mindful living.
And so that you hope, like the karate kid, by the time you're faced with those situations, you have some skills to be able to react in a way that is going to be conducive with your own values, right?
We're not going to be perfect.
[47:37]I have gotten defensive, I get reactive, I get angry, all those things.
So I am in no way in any way some kind of model of perfect reactions to people.
I am a very passionate person. So I use humor a lot.
You might say sarcasm, and I could be pretty sardonic.
[47:59]But so humor has definitely protected me. That's been one of my ways to be able to cope with those kinds of most difficult situations.
And I really believe in vulnerability and understanding why someone is reacting that way.
So I tell the story in The Joyful Vegan and it's probably still my most listened to podcast episode and I tell it in the book, is how to talk to a hunter or anyone with whom you disagree.
And I use this experience I had when that's probably the most difficult situation I've been in confronting what is incredibly painful, where I was volunteering to basically monitor a border where on the other side of which were hunters, they were shooting doves.
I barely can call them hunters, they were shooters. They were basically just shooting birds out of trees.
And so I volunteered to be there to make sure that if any animals, it was at Farm Sanctuary, and if any animals fell on our side, we'd be able to try and save them or to make sure or they weren't shooting birds on our side.
So they needed kind of volunteers to monitor this and showing up and standing there and watching people shoot birds, doves, was pretty, pretty difficult.
[49:17]But I put myself in that situation and I chose to be there. But what I practiced during that is something that has stayed with me and has resonated with a lot of people who know that story, which is I chose to have a stance and an orientation, both physically and mentally, that actually was open and vulnerable and compassionate.
The Power of Openness, Vulnerability, and Compassion in Conversations
[49:40]Because I was aware that what was lacking in that field that day was compassion and openness and vulnerability. And so I felt that if that's missing, that's what's needed.
And I am going to put myself in that position. And so I stood there, for instance, with my arms open, not crossed, so, so tempting to just be like this because I'm so angry and tight and angry.
And sad, right? And I want to show them that I don't believe in what they're doing, and I think what they're doing is awful. I could have easily stood like that and had that stance, and they would have seen me, and I would have made my point. But I wanted to stand open, and I did.
And so here's the thing, right? They know my stance. I was standing on the other side of the fence watching them as they shot birds. And so they knew who we were. They knew we were on Farm Sanctuary's land. And I didn't have to tell them with my body. I could just be there and still, you know, and still show up. And so I had this stance, and I just repeated a mantra over and.
[50:40]Over again, something, you know, just wishing compassion for them, just hoping that they, their hearts would be filled with compassion and grace and mercy and kindness, whatever it was.
And I just repeated it over and over and over for hours. And what was remarkable was A, being able to do it, that's the most remarkable thing. And it was challenging, and I had to keep reminding myself what to do and just keep doing and keep doing it. What became the icing on the cake and the real gift was the shift that I saw take place in that field. And I could feel it, I could see it, and I actually had an interaction with one of the hunters that was so compassionate and so vulnerable from his side. And I will never forget it. And so it's that kind of orientation that I try to bring to every circumstance.
I say it before I'm going to go to a public place, before I'm going to have an interaction with somebody in my head.
I basically say, may I have compassion, may I bring compassion to this conversation, may I be open and vulnerable, so that I'm bringing that to the space and.
[51:48]Not just reacting to what is going to happen willy-nilly.
All that stuff, that orientation to the world and how we interact with an individual at any given moment is going to be dependent on all the work we're doing prior to that interaction.
So it's a very long way of answering that, but I think that's the work we have to do, again, as human beings, regardless of where we are on the spectrum.
If we want to, again, align ourselves with our own, the best in ourselves, right?
That's what we ultimately want, is to be the best we can possibly be.
Not always gonna succeed, but at least we can orient to it.
Yeah, again, way to put yourself right there in, you know, the most important place you could be.
[52:33]What what are your thoughts around kind of humanity and civilization today? Do you feel like we're becoming more compassionate or less compassionate as a society?
I think we are more compassionate.
I think we care a lot, and we have a lot of laws that reflect that compassion.
You know, it's really difficult, because I really encourage people to, if they haven't read Steven Pinker's book, Better Angels of Our Nature, it's a line from a Lincoln speech, it's, he quite sets out to determine and answer that question if we are more compassionate, better, less violent than we've been in the past.
And so he uses all the ways you can measure it, it, whether we're talking about, you know, health care or war or conflict or animals, and he has a chapter on animals as well.
If you look at the laws, for instance, around animals, but this goes for, I think, in every example we can name for humans as well, in every way we have more laws to protect animals.
[53:40]From cruelty.
I mean, just read the history of the ASPCA and the RSPCA back in the UK, read the history of the animal protection movements in the UK and the US, we are more compassionate as a society than we've ever been. The problem with animals is that we have industrialized more than ever before, obviously because we can. And so the number of animals who are being killed and brought into this world only to be killed is so much greater than ever before because we've industrialized it and mechanized it. But in terms of individuals and how people live their lives, and how they treat animals.
[54:20]And even each other, I am of the mind, not just because I'm optimistic, and I am, and I'm a hopeful person, but because I've read history.
And I know that what we're dealing with today, we have a lot of work to do, we have a lot of things we need to improve on, but today is better than any day before this day when it comes to compassion and kindness and how we treat one another.
And I'm 100% convinced of that.
The Importance of Belonging vs Staying True to Values
[54:47]You talk about how the need to belong, to be part of a community, can sometimes be even more important than people, I think, staying true and following their values and what's in their heart.
[55:03]And I'll just give you an example, and then I'd love for you to comment.
And that is, so, you know, we went plant based at fire station two back in 2003, in order for someone to come on and be part of our crew, they had to agree to be basically plant based.
And we had a group of letters of people that wanted to come in to be either a driver or a lieutenant or a tailboard firefighter that was this thick, because people wanted what we had.
And so we had this one guy, he came in and then he got transferred to another station.
Station. And I went and I said, how's it going? You know, you eat and you still eat and plantstrong. And he said, Rip. He's like, I completely have fallen off that because all I want to do at this new station is get along. And I don't want to make waves. I'm the new guy here. And he'd been in the department like a year and a half. And so for me right now, the most important thing is to get along. And that supersedes everything else for me.
So, there's certain situations, I think, where people, they're going to do the best they can, but first and foremost, they want to get along.
And it takes somebody super, I think, committed to your values and that authentic you to be.
[56:30]Able to stand up and have a voice and let them know why you're doing what you're doing.
[56:35]Yeah, absolutely. And I talk a lot about this because I talked about the skills you can learn, communication skills you can learn, social skills you can learn. You know, some of this is personality and I realize I have a particular personality that's very comfortable, you know, being able to communicating and getting, you know, right into the fire, the line of fire.
Not always, though. I'm not a person who goes to protests.
I'm not a person who does that. Like, I mean, I have my own line.
I'm very comfortable with these kind of one-on-one and small group conversations with people. I love that.
But I don't want to do, you know, something like a protest. Like that's just not me.
So it varies even there.
[57:11]But all that's to say is, absolutely. And the thing I'm most proud of is hearing from people who say they played small and they shrunk back and did not stand up for who they were and now having learned the skills to do so or just even having the orientation because it's not skills as much as it is perspective and perception is if we think it's all about us and we think they're really thinking about us and we don't even want that kind of interaction where someone is uncomfortable, then yeah, then go in the closet and play small.
But if we realize that it's not about us and that we're there as a conduit and that we're there as a potential inspiration, I just did a social media post that talked about how everybody's an influencer because we all have people in our lives who are influenced by who we are, but that only is going to happen if we stand up and show up.
[58:01]So we just have to understand the power of those connections and also understand that, you know, that identity is one identity.
The plant strong, the plant based, the vegan identity is one identity.
It's a prominent identity for many of us. And we also have other identities.
We have the identity of a colleague and a coworker and a son and a father and a mother and a brother.
We have all those other identities. I think where we get lost is we think one is, you know, more important than the other and we have to quell the other identities in order to let another one shine.
So if we can just show up and realize, A, it's authentic, just be who you are.
B, there's gonna be some people who don't like it.
Okay, that's gonna be the case with whatever the situation, whatever the topic is, right?
Politics, religion, how you eat, whatever. That's always gonna be the case.
It's not about you. It's just about, you know, I don't know, chemistry.
Three, there's gonna be people who want what you have and they're not gonna know that you have anything to give until you show up and say, here's who I am.
Embracing Authenticity and Belonging
[59:10]Can socially belong, it doesn't have to be something that is.
[59:15]You know, opposed to the other things that we care about. And we just have to, I think, again, it's kind of like what we bring to the situation before we even show up. This is who I am, if someone, you know, doesn't like it, or they're going to push back, you know, that's just not my problem. But the other part of it is people do come around, you know, when they when they just do. It always changes. Initially, people are, you know, you're holding up a mirror, they're going to be defensive, they're going to kind of push back, whatever. But over time, people go, what are you eating there? Can I, can I try some or can you give me that recipe? Or they just went to their doctor and they found out they have high cholesterol. And I see what you're doing, I'd like some of that. But none of that happens if we think we have to be who they want us to be and can't show up as as who we really are. So that takes practice and work and, and all of that but I get it because belonging and having a sense of belonging and you know being part of the status quo is really important to us as social creatures and we can still we can still work with that and still be who we are. Yeah I want to ask you maybe one more question regarding the Joyful Vegan and then I want to move on if you're good with that. You dedicate the book to your husband David. And I'd like to read it. You say, you are my heart, my soul, and my rock. You inspire me to be a better person every day and beautifully model what it means to be a joyful vegan.
[1:00:45]Wasn't vegan when you guys met, right? No.
And so he went vegan, probably it sounds like, because of your authentic influence on him.
[1:00:59]Yes, I wasn't vegan when we met, because I was just vegetarian.
So when I became vegan, I read the things, right?
I read Slaughterhouse, and then I read Mad Cowboy, and then I read a bunch of other books.
And so whatever was available at the time that I had read, I went to him and said, I think you would be moved as well.
He was probably six months in, it wasn't right away.
And I was just mindful that he wasn't vegan, but he was open and he was curious and he was, is kind.
[1:01:30]And he's all of the things that would compel someone like that to learn something new.
And he was always really drawn to, kind of the romantics and Thoreau and Emerson kind of simple living and all of that. So it was his openness. It was his openness that enabled him to read those books. And he had the same experience I did, which is, I don't want to be part of it.
And then of course, you know, you know, I was the driver with all of this in our family, and I still am. But that's how it works. You know, I mean, I know you've heard this as a man, I've seen it as someone who's married to a man is like, oh, David's vegan for you, right?
As if he has no brain of his own, as if he has no autonomy, as if he's only doing this because I'm forcing him to do this.
He has his own ethics and his own values and his own desires and his own motivation.
And that's what we do in life.
We inspire people, we motivate each other. So I was that person for him, just like he's that for me in other aspects of our lives.
So yeah, he's amazing. Still is.
How old were you when you guys met?
I was 24 and he was 22. And that was almost 30 years ago.
Wow.
Overcoming Challenges in Relationships with Different Diets
[1:02:52]And well, and it's how wonderful that, you know, he is your rock and he's your, you know, sounds like one of your biggest supporters. You and I both know way too many relationships where it's a house divided and they aren't simpatico when it comes to being in lockstep with this lifestyle. And that to me is difficult. I can't even imagine how difficult it is.
But I hear all the stories. They have their separate sides of the pantry and the refrigerator.
[1:03:32]And then the children, and what are the children doing? Do you have any thoughts around the house Divided.
[1:03:43]Well, you named some of them. I mean, look, there's compromise we make in marriage all the time, right?
So what I hear from a lot of people is that they're supportive of you eating that way.
And it's usually the woman who's kind of driving it, the truth is, at least in my experience.
And the man, I think, we're still in the place where the woman still tends to shop and cook and the man doesn't.
And so you hear a lot of stories of men who are just like, oh, of course I love the food she makes, but when he goes out, he'll eat animal products.
And so a lot of people make it work. One thing I do really encourage the person cooking, whether it's the woman or the man, is to not be a short order cook and make three different meals because that's just ridiculous.
There's no reason to do that. And if it tastes good, they will eat it.
Whatever it is, it's going to be embraced by the family, even if it's different and new. It will happen eventually, especially if you're the one cooking.
But also the compromise of, yeah, I mean, having separate pantry items, you know, for some people having a separate refrigerator, if you want to have a small refrigerator because you want your house to be vegan and they don't, you know, maybe they can put, you know, sliced cheeses and cold cuts or whatever in a different refrigerator.
But a lot of it is around the, again, kind of the attachment we have to someone changing because of the information we've shared with them and the frustration that they don't.
And so a lot of it, I think, is the interaction and the communication.
[1:05:10]And that could turn into resentment, obviously, if someone, you know, is unhealthy, and they're not they're not, they're not making a change that's going to be better for themselves or the kids because they don't want to lose them.
So it's a lot of the same principles of we need to like plant seeds, but like step back, we need to be able to feel passionate and share information and raise awareness without being attached to outcome.
That's a huge aspect of advocacy, effective advocacy and effective communication is planting seeds and then remaining unattached.
Our family members, our loved ones, our husbands, our wives, what have you, they feel it when we come to them because we have an agenda and we want them to change.
They feel it like when we talk to them, we come at them like in this very intense way.
And if we still come to them with information that we want to share, we can still do that.
But once our orientation shifts from I have information I want to share with you, whether you take it or not, that's on you, but can I give you a book to read is different than why aren't you changing?
Why aren't you doing this thing? So even in marriages where we so want them to make a change because it's gonna be better for everybody, there's a lot of the effective advocacy and effective communication approaches that we can practice in those relationships too.
Effective Advocacy and Communication in Relationships
[1:06:17]Yeah, I like that a lot. And to me, that's so applicable to obviously not only our spouses, but also our children, best friends, important coworkers, plant the seed and then kind of, you know what?
[1:06:34]Go. Yeah, I like that. But let's pivot, because you've written, as I said, you've written seven other books besides the joyful vegan. One of them is color me vegan, where you you know, your whole concept of eat by color, which I just absolutely adore and love. I have that book on my, my bookshelf. Will you talk a little bit about the colors in different.
[1:07:02]Know, whole plant-based foods and what makes that so special and why that's so important for our health.
I love talking about this topic. I don't know, I really geek out on colors.
And I was just talking, I was doing a one-on-one with a woman.
A lot of people I find who struggle and kind of get off the straight and narrow are women who have children and they're trying to find, you know, how to navigate this with their picky child or after they've been breastfeeding or pregnancy, etc. And I was talking to a woman who, you know, she's, she's kind of fell off, she wants to get back to being vegan, and her son eats some plant foods, but not a lot. And he's picky. And I brought up the idea of using color as a way to get him in the kitchen. He's four, he's old enough to come in the kitchen and start picking things four or five, you know, picking things from cookbooks and picking colors. And I said, you know, make it an art project, have him come into the kitchen and and pick the colors that that you're going to make the meals with and she went, I know.
Never thought of that. And she said she's been to like picky eating conferences and like, you know, to like help her son eat more. It's such a basic way to and an intuitive way to eat if we think.
[1:08:11]About the things that we're drawn to, right? Because when you think about meat, dairy and eggs, they're pretty gross and bland, brown and gray, they're dead, right? And so when you think about a buffet of plant foods, it's gorgeous and colorful. And all the color we're seeing are all the phytochemicals that basically determine the hue of that plant. And I mean, there's many phytochemicals, some are just more prominent than others. And we see that in flowers as well. So the phytochemicals, which basically determine the color, are protective for the plant. And so they're basically ways for the plant to be protected from whether it's sunlight, or pests, insects or mold or fungus, these are all ways that the plant protects itself. And so we benefit from those same phytochemicals. They're protective for us as well when we consume those plants.
So the colors are just a way to, first of all, know that while they're gorgeous and delicious and they're plant foods, phyto means plant, but also that we can say, oh yeah, that's really protective. So the ones that we know, most people have heard of beta carotene, that's an example of of a phytochemical, that's one of the carotenoids, and that presents itself as orange, that's the beta carotene.
Exploring Different Phytochemicals and Their Colors
[1:09:27]You have alpha carotene as well. Lycopene, we're familiar with from tomatoes, right?
[1:09:33]Most people have heard of maybe lutein, anthocyanins, we're hearing a little bit more from the blue vegetables, so, and plant foods.
So the idea is to just eat by color as much as possible, and the more variety of color you eat, the more phytochemicals you're getting and green leafy vegetables are even...
For a million reasons, right? Because the green is actually the folate that's covering all of the other phytochemicals. So it's kind of like when the leaves turn color in the fall, they're actually not turning color as much as the folate is being removed. The folate is disappearing. And so what it's revealing underneath are all the colors underneath. Those are all the phytochemicals.
So the green leafy vegetables contain just like a huge combination of all these phytochemicals and the folate's just covering it up.
So yeah, just eating as much as possible. So let's say dinosaur kale that we're going to have tonight and pick from my mom's garden out here.
You're saying that that contains the beta carotene, anthocyanins, and then of course and then folate on top.
So it's a kind of a compilation of all of them in addition to folate.
[1:10:56]I never knew that. That's fascinating. How about yourself, like are there a certain number of colors that you try and eat every day?
Do you play that way or? I'm not that mathematical about it, but I really do. My foods are colors.
I mean, I just, I mean, I'm gonna make a kale salad myself for lunch and we've got fennel and peppers and avocado and red onion and strawberries.
I love strawberries in my like savory, I love fruit in my savory salads.
And then I'm planning on making a strawberry. We get flats of strawberries from the farmer's market and we freeze them.
Yeah, so I'm gonna make a strawberry. What are the phytonutrients in strawberries? Do you know?
What are the phytodendrons in strawberries? What is the color?
Um, hold on. Uh, now you're really putting me on the spot. It's okay. It's okay. Yeah.
I know from reading your book, I was like, I need to read this like 10 times because I want to memorize all these different wonderful phytonutrients that are in, every one of these colors, whether it's the purple in eggplant, the red in strawberries and raspberries, and yeah, all that, because that's, anyway, it's a fun bit of knowledge to have.
It is.
[1:12:18]Is there any particular food that you are super jazzed about right now, that you've gotten about excited about in the last, I don't know, week or two months?
Dr. Cristina Curp Yeah. I mean, I really do eat by season because we do go to our farmer's market and we're eating the foods because we don't even shop at grocery stores. I'll kind of make a run to a grocery store to get extra carrots or something because I love juicing carrots. And so I'll get extra carrots, but we really do eat by season. So I get excited about whatever it is that's coming into season. So strawberries are one of them, and fennel and watermelon, like those are what's kind of coming in now as we're getting into the mid-summer.
Watermelon is probably right now I'm obsessing over watermelon, especially, I mean, I don't juice all the time, but I do love juicing.
[1:13:08]Like watermelon juice blows my mind because it is the most incredible, sweet, delicious, perfect drink. And it's just watermelon.
It's just incredible. How do you eat your watermelon?
Do you cut it up and just eat it kind of plain?
Do you like to squeeze lemon or lime on top of it? What are you thinking?
Yes. When I eat the watermelon, I squeeze lime juice. And then I usually put some kind of chili powder on because I love that. And I will make those kinds of spicy.
I do like the combination of spicy and sweet. So I will make a watermelon Indian chaat kind of thing.
And so like I'll add like cumin and coriander and chili powder with the lemon juice or the lime juice.
The lime juice is even better for those kinds of tropical fruits. Yeah, yeah.
Who usually cooks in your family? Is it you or David?
I do, I do. And David, well, David does have some dishes that he makes.
It's funny, David tends to like pasta more than I do. I don't really love pasta, even though I spend a lot of time in Italy, but I don't love pasta.
And so when David wants to make something for himself, he'll usually just make a pasta, but he eats everything that I make. He loves it. He loves salads.
I thought you were gonna say, oh, there are some dishes that he washes, but.
He washes every dish.
He washes, David does all the dishes.
[1:14:29]That is, wow. What a, what a gem. All right, can we, let's talk for a sec about, So you have...
[1:14:39]These incredible trips that you put on for people that are, you know, beautifully curated.
You've got a trip very, very shortly to France.
You've got one to Italy, Japan. I think you've got one to Rwanda that's, you know, fingers crossed, going to come to fruition.
Well, I mean, this all sounds so absolutely incredible, yet I can't imagine the planning.
[1:15:12]That goes into it.
Do you actually go and scout the location and figure that out?
How does that happen? It's a tough job. It's a tough job. It is. It's hard work.
So I'm really grateful. I have partnered.
So I've always loved to travel. I was actually an editor for a travel publication back when I first finished grad school before we moved to California.
So travel has always been in my bones and I've been lucky enough to partner with two very good friends who were podcast listeners who became vegan from the podcast and they had a background in travel.
Long story short is they are the travel company, World Vegan Travel.
So they take care of all the logistics.
They do all of the planning. Now we, as a team, always have a say I mean, you know, they're always doing it based on, certainly for my trips, my brand.
[1:16:02]But they're the ones who do the work.
Now, we've scouted a number of places together, it's true, but now moving forward, they're the ones who take care of all the logistics.
I'm the one who sells the trips to my audience and hosts the trips.
So I'm basically, you know, a hostess and basically having a party every day with amazing people in amazing places, having curated the trips based on what we know is going to be fabulous and amazing and compassionate and etc.
So curated is exactly what these trips are. That's what's really special about them.
So World Vegan Travel can and will and does do trips without me, but the trips we do together are joyful vegan trips.
And I started doing them back in 2014 with a different travel company and they weren't the right fit for me.
So being able to do this with Bridie and Seb at World Vegan Travel is incredible.
[1:16:52]And so, you know, they'll be like, okay, we wanna do this many trips next year.
Which ones do you wanna do? and I always pick, like there's places I've been that I don't really need to go back to again. But Italy, every year, I just, I mean, I love Italy so much.
Exploring Culinary Delights in France and Italy
[1:17:07]France, we love going to places that are harder for people to really experience the cuisine of the culture.
And France is just one of those places.
You can be in Paris and find a ton of wonderful restaurants, but you leave Paris and you go into the countryside, we're going to the Loire and Bordeaux.
It's not, it's not, I wouldn't say it's not easy. It's just not pleasurable.
Not as pleasurable. You're going to be able to eat. You'll be fine. You're not going to starve, but are you going to be able to eat the cuisine of the region plant-based? No. And so that's why we do that. And then, of course, Rwanda and Botswana. I mean, going to these places and seeing animals in their native habitat, like the mountain gorillas don't live anywhere other than these mountains, is a dream to be able to bring people to see the mountain gorillas. And in places that are intimidating for people, they're still kind of overwhelmed by going to any country in Africa. So being able to do that, so that vegans can experience the same abundance and the same experience that everybody else does, because a lot of people pay a lot of money to travel. And if they're vegan, they're getting like the good enough. They're getting the.
[1:18:14]It's okay, it's good enough, I won't starve. And, you know, many of us are really grateful for that, because we just want to still go to these places, but still be able to eat. We say no, no, no, no, No, no, no.
You're going to get to go to these places, but you're going to have the best of the best because there's no reason you shouldn't just because you're vegan.
Incredible experience. How devastated were you when you weren't able to do these trips because of COVID for a couple of years? Yeah, it was mostly devastating for World Vegan Travel because they started a travel company right at COVID. So for them, it was devastating in the sense that this was their now new, I mean, Bridie had left teaching, they formed World Vegan Travel, And they moved to Canada from Bangkok in 2019, at the end of 2019.
So it was really hard for them, because I had already, I have all these other things.
I do my books. I do my podcast. I started teaching online cooking classes during COVID.
So I was able to continue doing all the other ways that I do my work.
I think for them, it was really hard.
[1:19:16]But I think for all of us, I think we were really grateful to just not get sick or worse.
So we did what we had to do.
But as soon as we were able to start kind of getting back, I mean, we went to Italy, we ran an Italy trip to Tuscany in October of 2021, and we had a test on the way there, and we had a test on the way back, and that was stressful, but we did it, and everyone went without COVID and came home without COVID.
But as time has gone on, we've just done the best we could, and now here we are, like, luckily being able to go to places and not have to worry about all that.
Yeah, I also saw you're thinking about putting on a conference, was it in Vancouver or someplace in 2024?
Is that still in the cards? In Whistler, yeah, we'll see.
So I used to run conferences here in Oakland.
I managed them myself and it's a lot, as you know. I mean, I know you know.
I've spoken at some of your conferences. So it's a ton of work and doing it myself, I'm just, it's just too hard. I'd rather write books, you know, and write podcast episodes. So what we're...
[1:20:26]Potentially doing is actually doing kind of a hybrid with World Vegan Travel and doing a conference in Whistler, but also coupling it with excursions.
So it would be both conference workshops and that kind of thing, along with also some really awesome things to do up in Whistler.
So we'll see if it happens. We'll see right now.
I just signed a contract for my next book, which I'm excited about. And seriously, wow.
Yeah. Good for you. Thanks, yeah.
Wow, can you tease us with the topic?
Oh, I can, I can tell you. I mean, so the working title right now is A Year in Compassion, 52 Weeks of Living, Plant-Based, Zero Waste, and Cruelty-Free.
So more along the same kinds of things that I do, but it was the idea is to do this kind of daily mindfulness around living lightly on the planet.
So eating as plant-based, I was gonna say not eating as plant-based as possible, eating plant-based, but also living zero waste much as possible and all the ways we can just live as compassionately as possible.
[1:21:30]Well, and as you and I both know, and everybody listening knows, Mother Earth is screaming, out for help right now.
What was it? I think last week we had the hottest day on record in 125,000 years across the whole planet and the average temperature was something like 63.9 degrees.
Know, I'm right now visiting my parents in the Hudson Valley area, we just had, you know, horrendous flooding and, and, and a death. So I mean, this is this is happening all, all over, the globe. And so your your next book, you know, just could can't come out soon enough. You mentioned the podcast and how you know you're writing episodes for the podcast.
Mentioned one of the books that you've read recently. Can you share, because you had an episode recently about some of your favorite films and books over the last year. I think this might be a great way to kind of close out our conversation along with obviously people grabbing a copy of this. What are some other books you recommend and and documentaries or films that we should that we should watch to kind of further our authentic selves.
[1:22:54]And the compassion that we feel for being vegans. Well, from an animal perspective, I mean, I'm a student of history.
I just soak up history. I just read history.
Understanding the Present Through History
[1:23:11]Whatever historical place point in history interested in. Just I think it really helps us understand the present when we know the past, and it helps us feel hopeful for the future because we see that things are better and different, in so many ways. So just any book on history that you are interested in, I'm a fan of, well, I mean, much history. One of my favorite biographies is on Grant, Ulysses S. Grant, Ron Chernow's biography on Grant. He was amazing. I think, you know, people don't understand, I mean, Lincoln was amazing, but Grant just made, you know, he was, he was...
Tell me, tell me what were, what were some of the characteristics about Grant that you, that you remember that you liked? I heard a story about him too recently, but please share.
He reminds me of my husband in many ways. I mean, he was just, he was so humble, and he just got the job done. He just didn't look for recognition. He didn't look for, for accolades, he just showed up.
I mean, it's why Lincoln was just, you know, finally like, yes, there's going to be, you know, someone who finally, you know, gives us victory because all the other officers just wanted recognition.
Grant's Humility and Naivety as President
[1:24:23]They wanted to be able to teach at West Point afterwards. They wanted accolades and Grant just showed up who had been, you know, he had already been kicked out of the army because of drinking, which, you know, so much of his drinking was when he was away from his wife, that's actually when he drank the most.
She was really his anchor.
He was just that person who just showed up, got the job done, was compassionate, was humble, and naive in some ways.
He made some missteps as president, but I think some of that really came from his, really just believing in human nature.
And so I would take someone being naive over being cynical any day.
So anyway, those are some of the characteristics that I love about Graham.
What's the story you're thinking of?
[1:25:08]It was, the war was coming to a close and he did something beautiful with the other big general. I can't remember now. Lee.
Lee. Yeah. Yeah. With Lee that was just, it showed the character of the man that he was.
He was magnanimous and that's what he does with Lee. Now, you could argue that Grant's magnanimity with Lee could have maybe contributed to the South not really understanding the impact that they had and maybe there could have been other things that had been done, but he gave Lee dignity.
He let him walk away with dignity and he was just magnanimous in that way.
So Grant, I just love it.
Read Grant. You could read Chernow's other biographies as well.
When it comes to history, specifically from the animal protection perspective, I really encourage people to know the history of the animal protection movement in the UK and the US.
So there's a book called, For the Love of Animals, which was written about the history of the animal protection movement in the UK, starting in the 18th century with Wilberforce and Richard Martin, fantastic read, such an important history.
And then you have a book called, For the Prevention of Cruelty by Diane Beers, which is about the history of the animal protection movement in the US, which actually was inspired by the UK.
And then a wonderful biography about Henry Berg, who was the founder of the ASPCA.
[1:26:36]Called A Traitor to His Species, because people didn't like so much that he was caring about animals, and they perceived him not caring about people.
So those books, I think, are really important. Um, you know, whatever you want to do.
You're inspired by, I get a lot of my inspiration from Stoicism and Taoism. So I do read the Daily Stoic every day, read Marcus Aurelius' Meditations. Marcus Aurelius was obviously an emperor in ancient Rome. He was one of the good emperors and he wrote a journal every day and his journal, his diary became what we call today Meditations. And it was his attempt to just be a better person. This is like, you know, Emperor of, you know, the Roman Empire, right, had some things to do on his plate, didn't really want to be Emperor, he wanted to be a philosopher. But he showed up did his job. And every day he wrote in his journal to just, you know, basically reflect on where he could do better and how he could how he could be a better person using the Stoic principles. So meditations inspires me every day, the Tao Te Ching inspires me every day, these are 2000 year old books that are still relevant today.
So those are the kinds of things that inspire me, but I could go on and on.
Films: Balthazar, Umberto D., and Animal-related Movies
[1:27:51]What about any particular films that you recommend? So films, so, oh gosh, oh my God, there's so many films I love.
I don't watch a lot of documentaries.
[1:28:05]I mean, everyone knows the vegan and health-related documentaries.
Also, most of my films are, you know, they're history-based.
[1:28:16]They're from many places. Okay, so I'll name a couple animal related films because I can't not.
So we were talking before about how Benji was one of those movies that made me sob in the theater.
Another movie, it was actually about a donkey. Which way do I point? Cause I'm a mirror.
So there's a donkey painting right there. I love donkeys. So there's an incredible movie by Robert Rousson.
Oh my God, they're just amazing animals. So there's a movie called Balthazar.
[1:28:44]And it was made in the 1950s.
It's a French movie by Robert Bresson. And it's a really good example of kind of what we were talking about in the beginning of this episode of the parallels between the cruelty with which we treat other animals.
[1:28:59]And the cruelty that we might also treat other humans.
And so there's this parallel between the way a donkey is treated and the way this young woman is treated by men.
And it's the most beautiful movie and it's incredible.
Incredible. And I, and I just, I just, I love it so much. I can't recommend it enough. And another animal related film. These are all on Criterion Collection. Criterion Collection is an incredible distributor of a lot of foreign language films. There's a movie, it's a French, Italian movie. It's a new realist movie called Umberto D. And it's about this old man who is retiring finally from a life of 40 years of bureaucracy.
And he's done with life, he wants to die. And he can't do this, he's gonna go take his own life, but he can't do it until he finds a home for his dog, who he loves.
So the movie is just this heart-rending, you'll fall in love with Umberto, but here's this man who loves his dog so much and he's trying to find a way to give his dog a life at the end of his own.
Yeah, I do watch a lot of sad movies.
I watch a lot of comedy as well, but those are some movies that I write.
[1:30:15]One that I remember, did you ever see Born Free when you were growing up? Sure.
Yeah, yeah. I remember just being a ball of tears at the end of that one.
And then of course, Old Yeller and.
Yeah, yeah, there's a lot. I have a podcast episodes on animal specific movies.
One of them, I mean, one of the books I'd love to write, I don't know if a publisher wants to publish it, but one of my dreams is to write a book on animal related films and animal related literature.
So I have a lot of podcast episodes specifically on animal-related films and animal-related literature.
And these are not films and books by vegans.
These are books by human beings who, this is a great way to wrap up, because this goes back to, we are compelled as human beings to do the right thing, to be compassionate, and we have these connections with animals.
And so we're all working this stuff out in our own lives, in our own forms of art.
And so that's what I love about talking about films like Umberto D and Balthazar, or the Misfits by John Huston, who did not make these films, they did not make these films as vegans with a point, you know, toward animal advocacy.
They're films about our relationships with other animals, because I think they're some of the most fundamental, foundational relationships we have. And...
[1:31:36]Can do in my work is, again, remove the muck that hinders us from tapping into that really authentic, that really deep, that really foundational compassion.
And some of these movies and some of these books are wonderful ways to see, you know, we're all doing this, we're not alone.
And that's all I can ask for in our own lives is that we manifest our compassion as much as we can.
Well, thank you for manifesting your compassion, for all your fantastic advocacy work, for all the books you've written, for your podcast, for your trips, for your cooking, I guess what do we call them, your cooking shows that you've been putting on for a while.
It's just remarkable, Colleen. And again, you know, I knew how amazing you were, but in researching everything that you've done and in speaking with you today, I didn't realize how incredibly remarkable you were.
So huge, huge congrats. Thanks so much for joining me on the podcast and for sharing what you just shared.
[1:32:50]I loved it.
Very much. Thank you for giving me the opportunity and I hope to see you soon and please give my best to your parents. I haven't seen them in a long time.
[1:33:01]I will. I absolutely will. Hey, so on the way out, will you hit me with a little Plantstrong fist bump and love there?
Boom.
[1:33:09]All right, Colleen. Bye. Bye, Rip. Thank you.
All of Colleen's resources, including her books, her vegan trips, and podcast information can be found at joyfulvegan.com.
And of course, I'll be sure to put a link to all those things in the show notes.
As you go along your journey, I encourage you to lead with joy.
Compassion, and always keep it Plant Strong. We'll see you next week.
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The Plant Strong Podcast team includes Carrie Barrett, Laurie Kortowich, Ami Mackey, Patrick Gavin, and Wade Clark.
This season is dedicated to all of those courageous truth seekers who weren't afraid to look through the lens with clear vision and hold firm to a higher truth.
Most notably, my parents, Dr. Caldwell B. Esselstyn, Jr. and Anne Crile Esselstyn.
Thanks for listening.
