#141: Chef Stephanie Michalak White: School is in Session with this Rockstar Plant-Based Chef
Chef Stephanie Michalak White - Lead Culinary Chef Instructor at Auguste Escoffier School of Culinary Arts
One of our favorite quotes on the PLANTSTRONG team, originally coined by Dr. John McDougall, is, “It’s the Food, It’s the Food. It’s the Food!”
Well, today, it really is all about the food with guest, Chef Stephanie Michalak White - Lead Chef Instructor of Auguste Escoffier School of Culinary Arts Plant-Based Degree Program.
From an early age, Stephanie was inspired and motivated to make a difference in the food industry. She's worked in a variety of establishments, including small businesses, pop-ups, catering, and farm-to-table restaurants.
Not only is she passionate about cooking plantstrong food, but she’s also equally passionate about sustainability, ending food insecurities, and optimizing self-care - which are things we at PLANTSTRONG care deeply about.
Today, she shares with us some of her favorite grains, green leafies, veggies, must-have tools, and appliances for any kitchen, and she even shares a special recipe for her sweet potato brownies!
It’s a fun foodie chat with one of the most sought-after chefs and lead culinary instructors in the plant-based space.
Episode Timestamps from the Audio
04:15 - Welcome to Stephanie and origins of her unique maiden name
06:05 - How her love of plants started with her grandparents
09:45 - When and why Stephanie was motivated to become vegan
19:08 - Chef Stephanie’s area of focus on food insecurities in higher education
24:50 - How she landed at Escoffier, and the genesis of their plant-based culinary program?
26:55 - How are the online courses being received and the many benefits of online education
29:08 - Diversity of demographics at Escoffier and the plant-based program
30:11 - Who was Auguste Escoffier? Father of Modern Cooking - History of the School of Culinary Arts
32:22 - Why do people become chefs?
36:20 - Chef Stephanie’s recommendations on basic cooking utensils for every kitchen
39:40 - Stephanie gives Rip eggplant-inspired ideas (his least-favorite veg!)
42:41 - Favorite squashes, rices, grains, and leafy greens
51:50 - How would Chef Stephanie cook for firefighters?
54:00 - Stephanie’s Sweet-Potato brownie recipe
56:10 - Mango love and how best to cut and peel those tough fruits
59:45 - Making Stephanie choose between chicken, cheese or eggs!
1:01:57 - How to keep plant-based food economical
1:05:00 - Reducing excessive amounts of sodium in cooking
1:10:10 - Favorite sweeteners and sugars for baking and cooking
Episode Resources
Auguste Escoffier School of Culinary Arts
Email for Chef Stephanie: smichalak@staff.escoffier.edu
Chef Stephanie's Sweet Potato Brownie Recipe
PLANTSTRONG Sedona Retreat - October 10th-15th, 2022 - A lifetime and transformative vacation awaits
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Promo Music: Your Love by Atch
License: Creative Commons License - Attribution 3.0 Unported (CC BY 3.0)
Full Audio Transcript
Chef Stephanie:
When we think about the culinary industry, there's some finesse to searing protein and cooking protein, but there's so much more that goes into preparing beautiful, vibrant, nutrient dense plant-based dishes. And honestly, that is, in my opinion, much more of a skill than creating a much more American standard American diet plate of mashed potatoes, probably overcooked steak, maybe some canned green beans. That doesn't make me hungry. It doesn't make me excited about food, but plant-based cooking does.
Rip Esselstyn:
I'm Rip Esselstyn, and welcome to the PLANTSTRONG Podcast. The mission at PLANTSTRONG is to further the advancement of all things within the plant-based movement. We advocate for the scientifically proven benefits of plant-based living and envision a world that universally understands, promotes and prescribes plants as a solution to empowering your health, enhancing your performance, restoring the environment and becoming better guardians to the animals we share this planet with. We welcome you wherever you are on your PLANTSTRONG journey. And I hope that you enjoy this show.
Rip Esselstyn:
Hello, my PLANTSTRONG peaches, I'm Rip Esselstyn. Welcome to another episode of The PLANTSTRONG Podcast. You have heard me say this before. And in fact, it's a quote that we say a lot on the PLANTSTRONG team, and that is, it is the food. It's the food. It is the food. This is something that I think Dr. John McDougall has been saying forever. And Dr. Michael Klaper has a quote of this on the wall in his office. Well today, it really is all about the food with my guest, Chef Stephanie White. She is the lead chef instructor of the Escoffier School of Culinary Arts, plant-based degree program. And we just got back from our latest PLANTSTRONG immersion in Black Mountain, North Carolina. And we were fortunate enough to have a couple of the Escoffier students that were assigned to us for this program.
Rip Esselstyn:
And I was just so incredibly impressed with these three interns, their knowledge, their skill, their experience, and their Can-do attitude, that I felt compelled to reach out and speak to the lead culinary chef instructor, who just happened to be Stephanie, who is truly a gem who has over the course of her career, worked in a variety of different food establishments, including small businesses, popup kitchens, all kinds of catering and farm to table restaurants.
Rip Esselstyn:
But one of the things that I love is that not only is she passionate about cooking PLANTSTRONG food, she's equally passionate about the sustainability of the food, how we can collectively end food insecurity and also optimizing self care. All things that we, on the PLANTSTRONG team care deeply and passionately about out. And today she's going to share with us some of her favorite grains, green leafy vegetables, must have tools and appliances for every kitchen. And she even shares a recipe for her sweet potato brownies. This is a really fun conversation with one of the most sought after chefs in the plant based space. And I cannot wait for you to meet Chef Stephanie.
Rip Esselstyn:
All right. My guest today is Stephanie Michalak White. Stephanie, welcome to The PLANTSTRONG podcast.
Chef Stephanie:
Thank you so much for having me.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh yeah, my pleasure. So your middle name, Michalak. You just told me that it was Polish. I am married to a Polish woman. Her last name is Kolashinski, very Polish. Michalak, I never would've guessed, but you say that's like the Smith last name in Poland?
Chef Stephanie:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's a lot of obviously Polish last names, but a lot ending with ski or ak. So yeah, my family's originally from the Lubatowa area of Poland. So it's like the Southern Western Southern area. It's been other countries too throughout history, but it's in Poland right now. And yeah, they actually have an area called [Mikahalacova 00:05:07], which is the Cove of the Michael X, which is very jarring as an American, but.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yes.
Chef Stephanie:
Yeah. So, yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, so anybody that's watching, behind Stephanie, she's got this be background that says all over it, is it pronounced August?
Chef Stephanie:
Auguste.
Rip Esselstyn:
Or Auguste?
Chef Stephanie:
Auguste, yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Auguste.
Chef Stephanie:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Auguste Escoffier School of Culinary Arts, and where Stephanie, you're the lead culinary instructor for the plant-based program there.
Chef Stephanie:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Which is very, very cool, which is why I'm having you on the show because I've never had a lead culinary chef instructor before. And I thought it'd be fascinating to find out how you became a lead culinary chef instructor, your passion for plants, how that all started. So I'd love to just start out by, let's just go back to the beginning. And then doing a little research, I know that you've loved plants since you were a very little girl growing up on your grandparents farm, where they sold raspberries and pussy willows.
Chef Stephanie:
Yep. It's an European thing to do, right?
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Yeah. So where did your grandparents have their farm?
Chef Stephanie:
So I grew up on the east coast. I was born and raised in Connecticut. My grandmother and grandfather were in Berlin, Connecticut. It's in the middle of the state and essentially they loved growing raspberry. So just rows and rows of it. They also grew small things for their own sustenance, like zucchini and things like that. And we had a Walnut tree that we used to harvest from. But mostly the raspberries were for production and selling. So a different time period where I could happily sell them on the side of the road and it wasn't an issue would probably be a problem now.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right. What exactly are pussy willows?
Chef Stephanie:
Yeah. So pussy willows are trees and basically they're the buds. They look like little cotton pales. So in particularly Catholic, like Easter time, you harvest just the branches. They're really beautiful as an ornamental item for table scapes and things like that. Basically they're twigs with little cotton balls on them. And that sounds way less enticing than they actually look. But yeah, it's ornamental.
Rip Esselstyn:
Would you say that's where you were introduced to your love of food?
Chef Stephanie:
Yeah. It's funny. I think about my childhood and how it brought me into plant based in a couple of different ways. So my love of agriculture certainly started with my grandparents and harvesting raspberries with them and seeing that abundance of color and flavor and just the vibrancy that happens with something that's peak and in season. It's something super magical that unless you have that experience and know how that's viscerally impactful to you, it's really difficult to emulate that. So for me, it just raw produce certainly came from them, my grandmother bless her heart, she's a terrible cook, very post depression era, cooks everything until it's dead, died over twice, put a stick of margarine on it and you're good to go. So it was not my most foody time period of my life. That being said, my mother is an avid cook. She's a phenomenal cook. So I got my of cooking from her. But as far as agricultural zeal, from my grandparents, so.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, it sounds like in some ways then, your grandmother was really the impetus because she was such an awful cook.
Chef Stephanie:
Yes. Actually, candidly, I used to joke about that. I must have been seven or eight years old. I remember pestering my parents that I wanted to go vegetarian. And this was way before people were really... Venturing was not a hot thing to do nor would an eight year old really be looking at that, I would think. It's pre-social media time. But I remember being so Gungho like, "I want to be vegetarian. I don't really want to eat meat." Probably because my grandmother was so terrible at cooking it. But I knew my body wasn't really leaning towards that. So my mother's a great cook, but she's like, "I'm not cooking a separate meal just for you, so you got to learn how to cook on your own before you can go vegetarian." So as an eight year old, I'm like, "I can make spaghetti. It's probably not a healthy way to live. So I chose not to go vegetarian at eight, but I remember distinctly as a little kid being like, "I'm drawn to this."
Rip Esselstyn:
So if you didn't go vegetarian at eight, how old were you when you decided to make the leap?
Chef Stephanie:
So it's funny. I went vegetarian at 14, actually off up a bet. I went to a boarding school for high school and I was playing competitive ultimate Frisbee, and we were training for the season. And a friend of mine, I don't know how we got on the topic, but we're like, "Oh, being vegetarian's going to help our performance, so we're going to do this." And basically, we made a bet to see who could be vegetarian longer. It very quickly turned into veganism for me within a couple of months. And at the time too, it was really digging into understanding the food system and actually getting very mad at the United States for where our food was and the quality of the food that we're consuming. So I pretty quickly felt much better being vegetarian and then vegan. So it was just a natural progression. But it started with a bet actually.
Rip Esselstyn:
Did you happen to win that bet?
Chef Stephanie:
I think I did. Yeah. I think she caved quite quickly and I was purely vegan for over a decade. So I would say I won that one. I didn't win anything, but my health.
Rip Esselstyn:
So you say that as you started to research and look into our food system in the United States, you got a little bit disgruntled. Can you specifically say what were some of the things that were upset about? Was it how it was produced, process, distributed?
Chef Stephanie:
It was a myriad of pretty much everything, honestly. At the time, I think the omnivore dilemma had just come out and Michael Pollan is a great writer to begin with and opened my eyes as this 15 year old to understanding how much they were is that we need to know about our food before it even hits our plates or hits our grocery store. So for me, it was an environmental portion that our food is traveling way farther than it really should be. At the time, I was really interested also in understanding agricultural history. So looking at silent spring in the seventies and eighties, the green revolution. So for me, it was realizing the monocropping that was happening or that had happened and understanding how that was degenerating our soil. So for me, it was mostly environmentalism that really throttled me to get so pissed off.
Rip Esselstyn:
That seems pretty precocious for a 14, 15, 16 year old to be doing that kind of research and coming to those conclusions. Good for you.
Chef Stephanie:
Yeah. Thanks. Yeah. My mother liked to say I was eight going on 32, so I can only imagine what age I was going on as a teenager.
Rip Esselstyn:
So let's dive into-
Chef Stephanie:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Rip Esselstyn:
College for whatever reason wasn't for you. And I think it's great that you were insightful enough to realize, you know what? This is not for me, it's just not my path. But it sounds like you knew that maybe culinary school was. And so what did that path look like and where did you go to school?
Chef Stephanie:
I went to, like I said, a private boarding school for high school, and I actually spent a semester up in Maine working on an organic farm. It was called Chewonki back in the day. I think it's just called Maine Coast Semester now. It really focused on ecology. And I found my independence there and recognizing that even high school wasn't really for me. So I went to college a year early and the college I went to was Bard College at Simon's Rock, great school. I ended up working in a restaurant in Great Barrington called Allium. I was the prep cook, our Maje pastry. They put me on whatever and made fun of me for being vegan. But we live through all those times as a vegan in the culinary industry. And I loved my classes there. Liberal arts is amazing and I'm an avid learner, but for me it was like, that's not where I see my career going. So I decided after a year there that I would transfer to the culinary Institute of America in Hyde Park, New York. So I transferred over to New York.
Rip Esselstyn:
So you went to the Culinary School?
Chef Stephanie:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Rip Esselstyn:
And how long was that? And did you enjoy it?
Chef Stephanie:
Yeah. The acronym is the CIA or the culinary Institute of America, which is funny. If you say it too quickly, people think you're part of the government. I'm like, "it's very different." I loved it. I loved my Alma mater. They were great. I went there for my associates and my bachelors and stayed on as a TA. I did go through the program completely vegan. So I worked off sight, touch and smell, which is very different than what most people do going through culinary school. And for me, I didn't have a problem working with animal products because as somebody who wanted to be a professional chef, I knew i would have to cook for people who were not vegan, so I was okay with that process. But I just didn't feel right about consuming it myself at the time.
Chef Stephanie:
so I learned how to cook in a very different way. Unless it was vegan, then obviously would taste it. But it was amazing, tons of information, really great people. But I will say that there were some challenges. A lot of the chef instructors actually were great about it and understanding. Some of my classmates actually were not so much. I'm sure they are now. But back then, over 10 years ago, it was a different time period where people were like, "What do you do? What do you eat?" I'm like, "Well, I photosynthesize. What do you think I do?" It was a different time as far as plant-based eating or vegan cooking. So there was a little bit of harassment there, but it was a different part of the industry, different time in the industry. So I think things are finally changing, which is great too, to see.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Photosynthesize or you could also tell me you were a Breatharian and you get this nectar drip going in the back of your brain.
Chef Stephanie:
I like it.
Rip Esselstyn:
Just from the air. Yes.
Chef Stephanie:
Exactly. Just nourishing myself with sensors, so.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Chef Stephanie:
Yeah. Exactly. Why not? We can completely change human anatomy and overnight, right? No, it was great exposure. I think there's definitely something to be said about learning classical culinary techniques. At the same time, even when I was a student, I'm like, "There's so many cool things we could do with vegetables that back then, it wasn't a part of the curriculum." So it was stuff that I worked on. On the side, I worked for a vegan food delivery service when I was in school. So I was still trying to find my way and plant-based cooking outside of culinary school, but also in culinary school and getting those foundations. So I enjoyed it. It was just a very different time in my life for sure.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow. Yeah. I'm finding has to be really fascinating that you were able to navigate the CIA using, as you said, sight, touch and smell and not tasting it just because you wanted to hold true to your beliefs regarding veganism.
Chef Stephanie:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
That's really, really cool. And so, how long was that at CIA? Was that two years?
Chef Stephanie:
Yeah. So the Associates is two years, and then the Bachelor's program afterwards is two more years. I did take a hiatus for a year and moved to Germany and worked in the wine world, which being vegan in Germany is also an interesting process. I think it's also still a little bit. It's probably different now. But back in 2012, it was still a little difficult to find items, but beyond tofu, if you wanted to find something besides raw veggies and lentils and grains, which are amazing and what I subsisted off anyway. But it was a little sometimes monotonous with what I could purchase. But I was also on a very raw budget because I was an unpaid intern, so.
Rip Esselstyn:
Did you get your Master's in food studies?
Chef Stephanie:
Yeah, so after my undergrad, I stayed on as a teaching assistant or a manager in training. And then I decided to go to New York University for my Master's. So the Master's Ferguson Food Studies and MA. They had two different tracks either you focused on culture or food systems. And at the time of my life, I was really focused on the cultural side of it. Systems, obviously a big part of my personal history and something I really love to explore too. But I felt like at that point in my life, I explored it. Maybe not enough because there's still so much more I could learn about it. But I really wanted to focus on the cultural side. So that's what I really leaned into.
Rip Esselstyn:
Hmm. Am I correct? Are you working on your Doctorate right now?
Chef Stephanie:
Yeah. Yeah. So for somebody who didn't think college was for them, apparently I've become a lifelong student. Yeah. So I'm working on my EdD, which is a Doctorate of Higher Education Leadership. I just offended a few weeks ago, but I have a little bit more coursework to do, which is different than a PhD track, which does coursework first and then your dissertation and all that good stuff. But yeah, my research is heavily focused on looking at institutional initiatives, addressing food insecurity from a higher education lens, without it being too technical. Basically, I interviewed a bunch of administrators who run basic needs programs to understand what their processes are like and what their lived experiences are.
Rip Esselstyn:
So when you say food insecurity at higher education, are you talking about all the starving students that are living on Ramen noodles?
Chef Stephanie:
Yes. That is exactly what I'm talking about. I think at least when I was going through my undergrad, everyone was a starving student. That was the normal. It was normalized, and it shouldn't be normalized because you can't function when you're not being nourished. There's no way you can be academically set. There's ways to be academically successful, but it's substantially more difficult to do anything if you're malnourished.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Chef Stephanie:
And we've decided as a culture that you're in college for a short period of time, so you can grit through with free pizza and Ramen noodles, but it's not true. People still have an idea that higher ed is predominantly students coming straight out of high school and we have substantially more non-traditional students than we ever had in higher ed. So most of them are financially independent and it's become even more severe. And we're not talking about it enough. So I'm talking about it more.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Well, it sounds like the way medical students, it just seems to be the right of passage that you go through medical school and you get... Or I should say maybe internship and residency and you get abused and you're sleeping three, four, five hours a night. And just these insane schedules maybe similar with some students going to college and really not fueling themselves in the best way.
Chef Stephanie:
Right.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Chef Stephanie:
So a couple years back, I helped, or I ran a teaching kitchen on an organic farm in Cincinnati, Ohio, and we used to do mindfulness retreats for some of the medical students that are at University of Cincinnati. So my portion was always focused on the kitchen side. So we'd always talk with the med students about that triangle of, you got to sleep, you have to eat, but you have to also have to do school. And sometimes people obviously choose two. You only choose two not to three, which I think is crazy. But it's one of those, we all have a good chuckle at it, but it's almost not right. Actually, it's not right. But at the same time, a lot of med students don't necessarily know that they're living on a budget as interns or as medical students and they're going to have patients and clients that go through that same thing. And if they don't know how to feed themselves as med students, how are they going to advocate for their patients and clients years later?
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, yeah.
Chef Stephanie:
You know?
Rip Esselstyn:
Yep, yep, exactly. We'll get right back to the delicious chat that I'm having with Chef Stephanie. But first, let's dig into the mail bag for another PLANTSTRONG proof letter that I received several months ago from a gentleman named John. And John writes, Dear Rip and the Esselstyn family. I wanted to take a moment and thank you for helping me turn my life around. I have lost over 50 pounds in nine weeks. I just had my annual checkup and lab work and both my doctor and I were amazed. I am off Valsartan for high blood pressure. And it's actually a little on the low side now. No more pravastatin, no more zetia, and no more stomach pills for indigestion. My lab results are living proof of this incredible nine week journey thus far. On behalf of myself, my wife and my daughter, thank you, Rip.
Rip Esselstyn:
All I got to say is congrats John. Way to take the kale by the stock and make it happen. It is beyond rewarding to hear from listeners like you who have taken the good news about plant-based nutrition and put it to work for them. And speaking of titrating off meds like John was able to do, I want you to know if you're on meds, one of the great benefits of attending one of our immersion retreats is having our incredible medical team on hand to monitor our guests as they transition to eating only whole plants. And it is remarkable how quickly the human body can heal itself when fueled the right way. And in as little as three or four days, we often are adjusting medications and sending our guests home with a note for their providers.
Rip Esselstyn:
If you'd like to take part in one of our retreats, we only offer them twice a year. Our next event will be in Sedona, Arizona from October 10th to the 15th. Visit the show notes or our website, plantstrong.com for all the details. We'd love to have you join us.
Rip Esselstyn:
Let's talk about Escoffier.
Chef Stephanie:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
So when was it that you landed at Escoffier and when did they introduce this terrific plant-based culinary program?
Chef Stephanie:
Yeah, so I started at Escoffier May of 2020. So basically at the beginning of the pandemic. Lovely time to shift a little bit in my career, which is great. Originally, I was a subject matter expert for developing some of the courses for the plant-based program, but we officially launched it in July of 2021. So we've had students since July of 2021 in the plant-based program. But it's been under development for a couple of years. So I came in at the right time and they so happen to find out that I have some plant-based experience, at least I would hope that I do, and have been working on making sure that we've got to really robust program that helps students be successful in their career and understand it from a plant-based lens rather than a more traditional route, just because at least for me, that was amazing to be a part of because it's what I wanted as a culinary student. And I never had that opportunity.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, I would imagine that most of the students that are going through the program are able to see it, touch it, smell it and taste it.
Chef Stephanie:
Yes. Yeah, yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Which is nice.
Chef Stephanie:
Yeah. Because our online students they're cooking in their home homes and taking the photos of their processes so that their chef instructors can give them really detailed feed back on, "You did this really well, but let's adjust this." Or, "The consistency was just a little off. I'm going to have you reduce it more if you ever make this again." So it's really detailed feedback. But yeah, if you're making stuff at your own home, you want to be able to eat it otherwise, yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
So you jumped in right at the beginning of the pandemic and you guys pivoted from all being live to online. How do you feel the online course is being received? Do you think gets effective for the students?
Chef Stephanie:
Yeah. It's interesting because pretty much all of higher ed had to transition online regardless. And luckily, Escoffier actually had an even pre-plant based. Our culinary and pastry programs were offered online. So we didn't have to pivot nearly as much as a lot of other institutions and both for campus, Austin Boulder, we already had a learning management system. We had stuff in place, so it was much easier for them to transition their on-ground campus students to more of a hybrid or online environment for the time that they needed to do that.
Chef Stephanie:
I'm working my doctorate virtually. My institution is in St. Louis. I am certainly not driving there anytime soon. I will for graduation, but that's pretty much it. So I think it provides a lot of more access and opportunity, which is an amazing thing, because if somebody has dreams to do something with their career, they should be able to find a way to do that.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Chef Stephanie:
And sometimes higher ed can be cost prohibitive and stop people from actualizing their dreams. So having our online program has actually been very beneficial because it tends to be a little less expensive than on ground campuses, and flexible too, so.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. How has it been received? Has there been interest in the plant-based program?
Chef Stephanie:
Yeah, it's been amazing. We have our first cohort mighty, but many at this point, but they're crushing it. The students are amazing. We have students honestly, across the world in our courses. The plant-based program is substantially smaller right now in population size than culinary, but it's really gaining traction. And honestly, the student work is so great to see because they're really diving into it and having a great time.
Rip Esselstyn:
That's so fantastic to hear. I can't think of a better time to be launching a plant-based culinary program. What are you finding is your demographic as far as male, female age range, ethnicity?
Chef Stephanie:
It's a little all over the place. I will say generally there's a few more females in the plant-based program than males. Also, when you're looking at the demographics of higher ed, they are shifting more female heavy across the board. So it's interesting to see parallels there. Age is all over the place, which is great. We have some students who are 18 to 20 and we have some students who are in their late fifties. Really, any time is good to go to culinary school depending on what you want to do with your career. So it's really great to see an expansion of ages. And then as far as demographics backgrounds, that they're all over place. But I think that's the coolest thing is that we have such a diverse student population, so.
Rip Esselstyn:
In doing my research, I saw that, and help me again, his name is Auguste?
Chef Stephanie:
Auguste Escoffier.
Rip Esselstyn:
Auguste Escoffier, he's considered the founder of modern cooking. That's a pretty good title right there.
Chef Stephanie:
Right?
Rip Esselstyn:
He's basically established the basics in culinary when it comes to innovating techniques and methodologies and foods.
Chef Stephanie:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Rip Esselstyn:
And so how long has Escoffier been around? Do you know when the cooking school was founded?
Chef Stephanie:
Yeah. So as far as our online program and our programs, they've been around for a little over eight years now. So as far as an online school, we actually have a long history, which is awesome. Auguste Escoffier, himself obviously, is much longer, and there's an amazing legacy. So we're trying to do him justice. He's known as the king of chefs where the chef of Kings.
Rip Esselstyn:
Is he dead? Is he alive or dead?
Chef Stephanie:
He's passed away at this point. It's been a few years. But his family's legacy is phenomenal. And we're very blessed to have his family's blessing to use his name, which is such an honor because of the role he's played in the culinary industry. There are a lot of predominant chefs who have impacted the industry greatly, but Escoffier is one of the biggest. We talk about foundational culinary techniques. He was a part of it. Helps craft the brigade system, which is how most restaurants are run. So he's the who's who, when it comes to long term chefs. So it's an honor to have the school named after him, so.
Rip Esselstyn:
So my take on it is chefs are just gluts for punishment. No, literally, it seems like you work insane hours. You get up, I don't know, 4:00, 4:30 in the morning, unless you go out and get to meet the customers, you're not getting the slaps on the back and the way to go. It just seems like an absolutely brutal profession. Why do you think people go into it? And what are they trying to get out of it? I love cooking, but I don't think I could do what you guys do.
Chef Stephanie:
It's funny. I think there are a handful of different reasons why people become chefs or want to become chefs. I do remember even as a kid, I mused about having restaurants. I certainly do not want a restaurant. Now it's the financial equity on it, no, no. But for me, the pull was honestly nourishing other people and cooking for other people. And this really impacting their life in a way that I otherwise couldn't, which you have to have perspective that you are impacting other people's lives, because if you're in a kitchen where you're not seeing the customers, there are open kitchens, I've worked in plenty of open kitchens. I've worked in front of the house just as much as the back house, candidly. So I've had those clients guest experiences, but you don't always get them.
Chef Stephanie:
And some people, they're more driven by the creativity of the food and connecting with the food and creating something that calls them and they get to play. I will say there's a lot of really hard work, but we play pretty hard too. So I think for a lot of people, that's how they get into this profession is because they find a flow. They find something they're really good at. And there's a lot of stress. There's a lot of careers with a lot of stress. But as chefs we have long hours, we're on our feet all the time. You might have a distributor that doesn't bring you anything of what you ordered because of a shortage or because something got messed up and now you have to re-figure out everything. Or refrigerator goes down and all your food is gone. Somebody calls off and now you're washing dishes, but also doing orders. Things happen literally all the time. But some people like that dynamicism that comes with it, always being on your toes. So I will say we're a special bunch of people that-
Rip Esselstyn:
I bet. You really are a special breed. No doubt about it. But I like what you said there about doing it because you really inherently, you want to nourish people. I think also you get, if you're creative and it's probably a great creative outlet. It allows you to flex your creative muscles in a way that's very, maybe unique to your personality. Right?
Chef Stephanie:
Right.
Rip Esselstyn:
I know just from working with Derek and Chad Sarno, who are both great plant-based chefs, they both have their own style and different plant-based foods they love to work with and get attached with. So yeah. And you're always innovating. You're always learning. That seems very, very exciting.
Chef Stephanie:
It is. It's one of the industries that you can become stagnant like with anything else. But I think that's the greatest thing for most chefs is that there's always something to tweak. There's always something to play with. There's more ingredients to expose yourself to. There's different ways to play with an ingredient that you've always worked with. So there's always something more to learn. And that's candidly, one of the most common sayings we have at Escoffier when we're talking to our students is, it's not about perfection, it's progression. And even as chef instructors, we're always trying to progress because none of us are perfect and none of us know all the answers. Most people find that the more you find out less you know. So I like to think that's a big part of being a chef too, is knowing that you'll never know everything about food and playing around with ingredients.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, I think what you just said is so true in just about everything in life.
Chef Stephanie:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Keeps us on our toes, always. So I want to fire some questions at you, put you on the spot a little bit here. So what are some, for our listeners that are out there, that are either deep into plant-based or just getting into plant-based? What would you say are some basic cooking utensils tools that almost every kitchen should have?
Chef Stephanie:
Definitely cutting board, a sharp chef knife. Make sure to have both a honing steel and sharpening stone. Most people do not know how to sharpen knives. And generally speaking, that's when you cut yourself is when you have a dull knife. And generally people don't have those. And then you have the knives you've had in your house for a decade that start and warping and they're not good for anything, especially root veggies. Nobody wants to cut a celery rack with a dull knife. It's terrible.
Rip Esselstyn:
Mm. Mm.
Chef Stephanie:
So cutting board, knife. Honestly, you do not need 10,000 knives. You just need a good one, maybe pairing knife and a bread knife. As a chef, I have tons of Knifes. I have a Cleaver that I bought in Disseldorf, Germany for three euros that I will never give up. But you don't need it. You just need a shark knife. I would say definitely a really good saute pan.
Rip Esselstyn:
What kind of pan? Do you have a particular pan you recommend? Do you like cast iron? Do you like GreenPans? What do you think?
Chef Stephanie:
Yeah, I like GreenPans just because there's so many things that people could line your pans with. And at some point, they start to deteriorate and we don't really need those in our food. But cast irons are also really great because they're super durable. They take a while for the heat to transfer or warm up the cast iron itself, but it stays hotter longer and after it starts to heat up, so-
Rip Esselstyn:
So if that's the case, what do you recommend? Do you recommend before you put anything in it or depending on how you're cooking, you let it sit for a couple of minutes?
Chef Stephanie:
Yeah. You don't have to have it for multiple minutes, but definitely preheating a little bit, especially if you're trying to seer something off. If you wanted to seer off a beautiful piece of tofu. Or if you wanted to seer, I don't know why I'm thinking about rutabaga right now, but it's still winter here. So if you wanted to see her some rutabaga, and you wanted that beautiful steer on it, if it's not hot, it's not going to do anything you're just going to steam it. It's just not the point.
Chef Stephanie:
So yeah. Heating up a cast iron can definitely help get you to where you need to be. I think a good set of bowls can be very beneficial. You don't have to go crazy with all of the gadgets in the world, but for plant-based, I love my Vital Mixer or high speed blender, just because there's so many awesome sauces you can make with soaked cashews or soaked academia nuts. And it just gives it such a beautiful, delicate consistency. So I would say for me, a blender is definitely a go-to, but you don't need like five of them. I feel like some people get aggressive with how they acquire. Simple is better.
Rip Esselstyn:
So I don't know how much you know about the PLANTSTRONG philosophy, but we're not particularly fans of adding oils when we cook.
Chef Stephanie:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
we try and do low sodium, low sugar, always when we can, whole grains. So just to give you a little background on that. But I am not a fan of eggplant. So could you create an eggplant dish that I would like?
Chef Stephanie:
so eggplant can be finicky because depending on the time in which you harvest eggplant, also the varietal, some of them are more bitter. So let me ask you, what do you not like about eggplant?
Rip Esselstyn:
The texture?
Chef Stephanie:
The texture.
Rip Esselstyn:
It's rubbery. It's styrofoamy. I find it frankly, to be tasteless and yeah. There's maybe one time when I had one of those thin purple Chinese egg plants.
Chef Stephanie:
Gotcha.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right?
Chef Stephanie:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
But it also, if I'm going to like an eggplant, it needs to be cooked. It's like a mushroom, like a Portobella mushroom?
Chef Stephanie:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
It needs to be really cooked and get all that water out of it.
Chef Stephanie:
Yeah. Yeah. So I would say the longer Japanese style eggplant, they're going to have a different flavor than the big globe Italian eggplant. So knowing that there's some amazing Thai eggplant that are smaller. They all have different flavors to it. And honestly, when you have eggplant that have grown too far, they get really big seeds. They start to get bitter. They're also bloated a little bit more of water. So picking the right eggplant can go a long way to begin with. From there, I would say if you're not particularly fan of the texture actually roasting them whole over an open fire can be really great because you char off the exterior, it steams the inside and you can puree it into really beautiful sauces or it spreads. Basically that's the base of Baba Ganoush. So it's luscious. It becomes nice and creamy, really lovely and compare really well with... I like Tahini. It's heavier on the fat side, but it's blends really well with some lemon juice and Tahini, some garlic as well. And it's just a beautiful spread, so.
Rip Esselstyn:
I think I would like that.
Chef Stephanie:
Great.
Rip Esselstyn:
I definitely do. Yeah.
Chef Stephanie:
Awesome.
Rip Esselstyn:
I like that idea about roasting on the fire, taking out the inside, doing a little Baba Ganoush or some other sauce. That's great. Yeah. Yeah.
Chef Stephanie:
Yeah. Yeah. That way, because candidly, I have had undercooked eggplant. It's just not, it's not pleasant. It's just not the right way to do it.
Rip Esselstyn:
Are you a fan of eggplant, squashes, mushrooms?
Chef Stephanie:
Yeah, I am. It's funny for me. I'm particular with eggplant as well. I'll take smaller eggplant or the Japanese longer style eggplants, cut them in half and slice them on a bias so that they have a grid and then do a miso and maple glaze and roast it like that. So that it's got this sweet Umami anxiousness to it. And then if you roast it long enough too, it gets nice and supple. So it's not that of rubbery plasticy type of texture. So for me, that's a great way that I like eggplant besides roasted. Summer squash, I love during the summer. This is obviously not the right time of the season for me. And candidly, when I have it when it's undercooked, it actually doesn't make me feel great so I avoid dishes where it's gently sauteed. But my grandmother also used to like cook squash until it was decimated. So I try to find that nice, happy medium in my life nowadays.
Rip Esselstyn:
What do you, what do you like? Acorn, butternut, kabocha? You got a favorite squash?
Chef Stephanie:
I love winter squash.
Rip Esselstyn:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Chef Stephanie:
Butternut is ubiquitous. You can find it everywhere and you can do so much with it. Like I love making risotto with some roasted butternut squash. I'll puree some of it to get it that creamy lusciousness to go along with the starch it's releasing from the Aral rice. But then I'll take cute pieces of butter and squash as well. So you get the creaminess of it, but then you also get the beautiful roasted notes and top it with some toasted pumpkin seeds or something like that. You could also arguably harvest the seeds from the butter and squash, but that's a long drawn process. So usually that's, not my evening, my midweek meal. But yeah, butternut squash, I love just because it's how prevalent it is. But Kabocha's great. A slightly different texture. I find deeper in flavor. It's not just like that sweet initial note to it. So Hubbard squash is too really beautiful texture.
Rip Esselstyn:
Hubbard squash. Is that similar to a Kabocha or just a pumpkin in general?
Chef Stephanie:
Yeah. Yeah. Kind. I find it to be more dense. It's denser. Also, the skin is quite thick, so it's a hassle to harvest. But yeah, it's a little bit heartier, I would say.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, let's move on to just plain old rice. Do you have a favorite rice that you like to cook with? Short grain, long grain, basmati?
Chef Stephanie:
Yeah, it depends on what I'm cooking it with because I'm generally not just eating rice. You know?
Rip Esselstyn:
Sure.
Chef Stephanie:
I like lentils or some beans or something like that. So if I'm going for something like a peel off method, which usually is a little bit of oil at the beginning, you arguably can do it without oil, but it helps protect some of the grains. You don't have to go crazy about that though. And then basically add just enough liquid for rice. It would be a one to two ratio, bring it up to simmer, cover it and they become nice and light and fluffy. It reminds people of like Biryani from Indian cooking. Or short grain rice is great for making risotto if you've got Arborio. Or I do like making sushi every once in a while. So going for a short grain there.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Chef Stephanie:
It just depends what I'm using the grains for. I personally really like working with other grains like millet and Pharaoh, just because there's so many other flavors and textures there. So I like to expand beyond rice, but depends on the rice dish.
Rip Esselstyn:
No, I hear you. So let's expand beyond the rice.
Chef Stephanie:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
So you mentioned Farrow and millet, Amaranths barley. Do you have a favorite or it just depends upon the dish again?
Chef Stephanie:
Seriously, depends. I'm so mood dependent. It's terrible when people are like, "What's your favorite dish to cook?" And I'm like, "Well, it depends on who I'm cooking for." But I will say in the Cincinnati area that I'm in right now, you can actually find some local wheat berries. So if you can find local grains, that's an amazing way to contribute to your community and also reduce the length of distance that your food is traveling. It's really awesome to have local grains. So here I can usually find wheat berries, so that's really great. And sometimes during the summer I can get nixtamal or basically... Why am I blanking on the term? Basically corn for making tamales and things like that. So apparently my brain is just kinda mush right now.
Rip Esselstyn:
Have you ever been to this chef's garden?
Chef Stephanie:
I have.
Rip Esselstyn:
You have.
Chef Stephanie:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Chef Stephanie:
It's amazing. Farmer Lee is amazing. Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Farmer Lee, it's this amazing regenerative farm outside of Cleveland, Ohio, about a mile and a half from the shores of Lake Erie.
Chef Stephanie:
Yep.
Rip Esselstyn:
The soil there is just phenomenal and the different produce they're growing there is spectacular. Yeah. We've done some things with them.
Chef Stephanie:
Oh really?
Rip Esselstyn:
So speaking of the Chef's Garden, they grow some really incredible green leafies, all kinds of different kales and Swiss chards, and arugula. Do you have a favorite green leafy?
Chef Stephanie:
Mm.
Rip Esselstyn:
Is it the mood again?
Chef Stephanie:
It's the mood. It's the mood. It's like, which way is the sun pointing right now? I honestly, if I had to go to a fallback, I would say lasting out a kale is something I always come back to just because of the consistency. I also like the depth of flavor and the texture more than regular kale, but I'm I've worked on many farms. So if I can get my hands on some good beat greens or some Swiss chards, especially rainbow chard, I'm not going to pass it down. I love my greens. Or sweet potato greens, not very common, but sweet potato greens work a little bit like spinach, and they're really fun to work with, so.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, sweet potato greens. I don't know if I've ever had sweet potato greens. So that'll be interesting to try that.
Chef Stephanie:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
One of the things, they did I think they called it an ice spinach, that it had a really high sugar content because the time of the year that it was grown and the temperatures. And it was like no spinach I've ever tried before. Do you know what I'm talking about?
Chef Stephanie:
Yeah. I think they just called ice spinach. But basically they're growing the spinach and it freezes and thaws freezes thaws. So basically it helps with that bricks content. It's almost like making wine where the later you harvest the grapes, the more bricks content it has. So yeah, it's so fascinating that they're able to do that with spinach and basically create something that very few of us have ever experienced in our lives. So I'm so glad that you got to experience that.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And in fact, last night, it was my birthday and-
Chef Stephanie:
Happy belated birthday.
Rip Esselstyn:
Thank you. Thank you. And actually, for dinner, we had a great mulligatawny soup and we had a wild rice. And then our side was black and broccoli in the cast iron skillet with just some garlic granules, onion granules, red chili flakes, a little bit of salt and pepper. And then I threw i maybe for last three minutes, some finely diced up dinosaur kale, right? With the stem and I adored it. But my wife was like, "It's just a little too bitter for me." I'm like, "Oh, I love this." I think it's so much better than just plain oldd curly kale.
Chef Stephanie:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Chef Stephanie:
Bitterness can get people though. I will say, especially in my later teens and I'm like, I love the idea of broccoli. I love it now. But back then, my palette was just like, that's too bitter. Even ridicule, I was like, "Oh, I can't." See, pallets change over the years. But that was really difficult for me for many years. But trial and error.
Rip Esselstyn:
What about arugula? You like the rocket lettuce?
Chef Stephanie:
I love arugula. I like it more when it's baby arugula though. It's not as peppery. I do like the peppery note, but sometimes the larger arugula leaves can be really aggressive and it's hard to balance that out as a composed dish. I will say dandelion greens are fabulous though. If you get dandelion greens in season, delicious. They're a little bit more bitter. Traditionally, and I don't recommend people do this just on a whim. But you can actually harvest the dandelion roots and make them into a beautiful tea. It's pretty anti-inflammatory, which is awesome. But yeah, it's not something to go in your backyard and find your dandelions and rip them up. A, you'll have a lot of holes in your backyard. But it's much more of a process than that. That was very simplified. But dandelion greens are awesome during the season, so.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. I know whenever I am short on time and I want to get a quick meal, in Austin here, we just had sweet greens that came in. There's a couple of locations and I always, as my base, I always get arugula. I get a huge bunch of arugula and I just love it. Mm.
Chef Stephanie:
Mm.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. All right. I'm going to put you on the spot again.
Chef Stephanie:
Okay.
Rip Esselstyn:
So we're going to go to your local fire station. We're going to cook for the guys and the gals that work there. Typically, very meat heavy, meat and potatoes type diets usually for these people, these firefighters. You're going to cook them up something that hopefully is going to wow their pallets them to be really interested in plant-based. It probably needs to have a bit of an Umami backbone to it. What are you going to make for these guys and gals?
Chef Stephanie:
So candidly, my father's a firefighter. He's retired now.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow.
Chef Stephanie:
Yeah, he was a firefighter in West Hartford, Connecticut for 25 plus years. So I'm used to the fact that he's a very safe eater. I did not get my love of expanding my pallet from my father. I love him for many other things, but his food preference is not one of those, but I'm so used to hearing stories about lasagnas and just very carb, meat, heavy dishes, barbecue, things like that, but-
Rip Esselstyn:
Meatloaf, meatloaf.
Chef Stephanie:
Meatloaf. Well, you're feeding the whole station. It's an undertaking and it's a whole process. I have to lean into my Polish heritage and go for, I would do sweet potato pierogi. It's a little bit different than a traditional pierogi, but really still Hardy enough because being a firefighter is an intense job. Somebody's on watch in the middle of the night, everybody's system is all out of whack. So I would probably go with pierogi with some caramelized onions, probably do a big whole grain salad on the side with a bunch of greens in it. Probably go for a lemon vinegar just to bring some brightness into it. And then ground it out with some brownies. You got to make sure to have something homey. So it's not too estranged, especially for people who may not be used to plant-based cooking. You got to find that middle ground. Get them to think about it, but not take them out.
Rip Esselstyn:
Nice. Do you make a good plant-based brownie?
Chef Stephanie:
I do. So I have a couple of different versions. One is pretty coconut oil heavy. So not really great for PLANTSTRONG. But I do like doing one with roasted sweet potatoes because it adds a gentle sweet note to it and it actually gives it more of that fudgy look to it.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh.
Chef Stephanie:
Yeah. So I do one with roasted sweet potato quarry, flexed meal, dark cocoa powder. Usually, I melt in non-dairy chocolate as well. So yes.
Rip Esselstyn:
So do you think you could share that with us? And we could include that in the show notes for this podcast?
Chef Stephanie:
Absolutely.
Rip Esselstyn:
That would be fantastic. Let's plan on doing that.
Chef Stephanie:
Perfect.
Rip Esselstyn:
So you mentioned your father was a firefighter. Did you say he was East Hartford?
Chef Stephanie:
West Hartford.
Rip Esselstyn:
West Hartford. Actually, that's where my brother lives now.
Chef Stephanie:
Okay.
Rip Esselstyn:
Where is he because of your passion for plants? Is he plant-based? Is he and your mother or?
Chef Stephanie:
Yeah. So my dad grew up with my grandmother who doesn't know really how to cook very well. He's very utilitarian about eating, so he's grown a lot. I think probably due to the fact that I'm in the hospitality industry, where I remember, must have been like 15, 16 at the time, we went to a Japanese restaurant and he's like, "I don't know what to do." So he's a very safe eater still. So he still consumes animal products, but he's definitely expanded his palette, him and his wife. His wife actually has diabetes so she's very particular about her diet as well. They do more plant based now, but they're certainly not plant-based. I can't attribute that. My mother, she very much is very plant forward. She's a big foodie, but yeah. I got my love of cooking from her, but she and I have different eating patterns still.
Rip Esselstyn:
Got it.
Chef Stephanie:
Yeah, so.
Rip Esselstyn:
Let's talk mangoes. Do you like mangoes?
Chef Stephanie:
I love mangoes. Sometimes they can be a little stringy. So you got to find the right one, one that's nice and ripe, but super luscious. I love the consistency. You can do so many different things with mango.
Rip Esselstyn:
You can. Do you have a favorite way of cutting a mango? Peeling a mango? Serving?
Chef Stephanie:
Yeah. So I know some people like to do the crosshatch and scoop it out. Personally, what I like to do is have the mangoes have the oblong shape, so you cut the top and the bottom off. And I use a knife just to peel the exterior because sometimes if you've got a peeler, it locks up on the skin. So I just try to get super close because I don't want to take too much off of the mango. Exactly.
Rip Esselstyn:
It's orange gold.
Chef Stephanie:
Right, exactly. So I use my chef's knife and just work the mango that way after cutting the flat surface. And then from there you can actually see the odd, long seed from the top and then you cut around the seed. So you're trying to maximize. And typically I don't do this if I'm serving other people, but if I'm at home and I've got the core of the mango, you just mow on it a little bit so you get the core part of the mango.
Rip Esselstyn:
I posted on my Instagram channel a couple days ago, how to peel a mango with your hand. So I cut it along the seed and then I take it and I go along the outside and then I just peel it back. Right?
Chef Stephanie:
I love It. Love it. Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
And it's this great almost pair, pair of a huge chunk. And I love snacking on that, as opposed to these little cubes that you do, like Martha Stewart style and then turn it inside out and blah, blah, blah.
Chef Stephanie:
Right. Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
But I had all these responses and I had several people say, "Oh, I just eat the skin at all." Have you ever heard of people eat in mango skin?
Chef Stephanie:
You can. I find that it makes my tongue fuzzy and I don't particularly care for the texture. Also, you do want to think about what are the growing processes of that mango? Usually the peel is a protection layer for a reason, but you can. I'm not saying anybody can't, but-
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. When we were growing up, we got introduced to mangoes probably when I was in my teens and my brother, we would just like go to town on making sure we got every little, last bit. And he started getting basically this red rash all around his mouth and we couldn't figure out what it was is from. And my father finally said, you know what? We've been eating a lot of mangoes and it is a close cousin to poison Ivy. So you're having a reaction to that, and that's exactly what it was.
Chef Stephanie:
Yep. Yep. It's funny how I loved pineapples, I still love pineapples, but I would eat much. You get the prickly tongue and stuff like that. Arguably, some people will actually eat the peel of pineapple, which I find that's very rough, and I would hope most people choose to take that off. But I think about it, people eating the skin of the mango like Kiwi, you technically can. But why would you? But that's my opinion. If somebody enjoys it, I'm not going to stop them from enjoying their food.
Rip Esselstyn:
I actually have enjoyed eating the skin of a Kiwi. But the mango's a whole nother beast for sure. All right. I have a decision for you to make.
Chef Stephanie:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Rip Esselstyn:
So if I'm going to say Stephanie, you've got to eat one of three things, two eggs, however you want to prepare them, a piece of skinless chicken breast, or two ounces of cheddar cheese, and you had to pick one, what would it be? Or could you just not do it?
Chef Stephanie:
If I had to pick?
Rip Esselstyn:
If I had to pick.
Chef Stephanie:
There's so many. The chicken is absolutely out. The chicken and the texture and just the processes. There are ways to raise chicken that's more humane and but that's generally not the chicken breast.
Rip Esselstyn:
I want to hear your thoughts out loud. So, okay...
Chef Stephanie:
Yeah. So for chicken, I worked on an organic farm and they were not plant based. They had amazing produce and I really highlighted that. And they had great regenerative agriculture, so they really focused on having very sustainable processes and humane processes for their animals. Still chicken, it's just like the texture. There's great ways to cook it, but it's not. If I had to ever choose a non plant based item, that would not be it. So that one's out.
Chef Stephanie:
The eggs, I think it would really depend on where the eggs are coming from just because mass produced eggs, and same thing with dairy too, it's just such a minefield of terrible practices. And cheddar cheese, I depends on the dairy. And then we're waiting to see where they're cheddering this cheese. So for me, it's like this long drawn process. So I think ultimately-
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay.
Chef Stephanie:
I think I would choose the cheddar just because it's at least been fermented in a way.
Rip Esselstyn:
Maybe you could throw it into your roasted sweet potato brownies.
Chef Stephanie:
[laughter] just get that sharp cheddar flavor in there.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. So do you find eating plant-based is expensive or economical?
Chef Stephanie:
It depends on how you eat plant-based. I think a lot of people go, "I can't be plant based. I can't be vegan because it's too expensive." And it's like, well, what are you choosing to eat? Because generally speaking, if you're going for whole foods, they're not that expensive, especially if you're buying bulk and especially if you're buying raw ingredients and you're not buying prepackaged items, when you start going into prepackaged or very heavily prepared items, that's when it gets expensive although, nuts are expensive. I will say that. The cashews are or a pretty penny sometimes. So it really just depends on the items. Lentils are cheap, they're delicious, they're filling. You can make a lot of portions for very small price point. That being said, if you're buying a ton of mangoes, if you're getting exotic fruits and vegetables, yeah it's going to rack up. So it really depends on how you go about it. I would say it's economical, but that's also mean knowing the prices of food. And arguably, I would still say regardless of if the produce is expensive or not, it's cheaper in the long run for your health.
Rip Esselstyn:
Totally, totally. Yeah. I love telling people that potatoes, beans, bananas, frozen fruit, frozen veggies can be really the most economical and healthy way to eat on the planet and it's not going to break your wallet. It really shouldn't. Where do you shop? You shop anywhere in particular?
Chef Stephanie:
I shop around. It depends on what I'm looking for. And the area that I'm in, Kroger, is one of the larger grocery stores. Back in east coast, obviously Stop & Shop was the big to do. Candidly, whole foods has some really great products around here. We have a market called fresh time, which has some pretty good produce. I also still like to buy directly from farmers. We have a cool food hub that you can order on online and they aggregate it from local farmers. It's more of a process, but they it's much easier to buy from farmers nowadays than it ever has been before. So it's a beautiful thing having the internet and delivery. So it depends on what I'm looking for. Post doctorate, I'm hoping to grow a little bit more myself too, to cut down on how much I'm purchasing outside of that. But right now, I don't have enough time or I don't feel like have the time to allocate towards nurturing little-
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Chef Stephanie:
You know? So.
Rip Esselstyn:
So we're winding down here. I just got a couple more questions for you. Hang in there. You're doing amazing.
Chef Stephanie:
All good.
Rip Esselstyn:
So if we're trying to really cut back on our sodium and we tell people you really got to be careful about all the packaged, boxed and canned goods. But let's say at home, we don't want to use much sodium when we're cooking. Do you recommend any spices or any ways of really enhancing the flavor without using excessive amounts of sodium?
Chef Stephanie:
Yeah. Not all canned items are evil or anything like that. But generally speaking, if you have canned items like canned beans or tend to be high in sodium. So if you're buying dried beans and soaking them yourself, A, it's cheaper. B, you're cutting down on sodium. So minimizing how much you're eating that's processed or have gone through some type of processing will absolutely help. When it comes to spices, absolutely. There are other ways that we get sodium, but our pallet is much more than just salt and sugar. We've got acidity. We've got Umami. We've got that Umami, that savory note in bitterness. So they all can interplay and they dance on our palette and on our tongue.
Chef Stephanie:
So infusing different spices, whether or not you want something warming. So maybe something like human and cinnamon, you could certainly still have a little bit of salt in there, but it's going to give it so, so much more flavor than just be like, "I'm just going to seize it with salt and black pepper." That's fine, but it's very bland at the end of the day. If you're adding in smoked paprika, then you get that beautiful smokey note and that fruitiness from the pepper, you can go for turmeric, which is very earthy. But then also thinking about when you're cooking something, adding some acid at the end brings in some sweetness and also some acidity...
Rip Esselstyn:
What's some acid that we could bring in? Give me some examples.
Chef Stephanie:
Yeah. Lime juice, lemon juice. Arguably, you could do something like orange juice, but it's on the sweeter side rather than acidic. You honestly could also do some vinegar. Apple cider vinegar, actually really great way to finish cashew based sauces, just because it gives it more depth. I'm fortunate to have a local vinegar maker in the area as well, so sometimes I'll use some weird vinegars like if there's a corn vinegar that I can buy, or you could make them yourself. I used to ferment lot. But it takes over the house very quickly. But balancing out spices with also some acidity and thinking about the dish as a whole can help you really pull back on, on sodium and on salt.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. What would you say are some spices that should be in every spice cabinet in the plant-based listener that's listening right now?
Chef Stephanie:
I would absolutely say cumin coriander, cinnamon, paprika. I am very particularly fond of smoked Paprika, candidly, which was a personal preference.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, it's the Polish in you.
Chef Stephanie:
You're right. Turmeric. Definitely turmeric. Let me see. Dried herbs as well. We can distinguish herbs and spice, but having some dried time bay leafs, oregano, you can do so many things. Like dried Rosemary. You can really prepare dishes across cuisines with a small select... Cumin and coriander are used in so many different cultural dishes and they can taste widely differently. Dishes from Mexico that have Cumin and coriander are going to be drastically different than Indian dishes that have Cumin and coriander. But they both have it. So having those spices or core spices can really help you expand your horizons when you're cooking at home.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. I didn't hear garlic or onion. Do you not do that?
Chef Stephanie:
I love alliums, garlic. I love scallions, actually. I just don't think of them as dried spices, but they're absolutely used as a flavor base. I use them a lot in my house. I know some people actually avoid alliums and that there's plenty of other ways to introduce flavor bases to building the flavors in a dish. Some people actually will go for, gosh, black sea salt.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Chef Stephanie:
It has a smokey sulf free note to it. So it's an interesting way. Or the Indian spice, hing, and sometimes has kind of... Some people actually think it tastes a little ikey actually. So it's interesting if you're doing a scrambled tofu dish. But it can give such an expansive flavor to it as well if you're avoiding alliums and things like that.
Rip Esselstyn:
What about fenugreek?
Chef Stephanie:
I love fenugreek. I don't use it very frequently at my house candidly, but it's delicious. Obviously it's different than Fenugreek, but fennel seeds are beautiful. I love that rich note though. It's not for everybody. I actually really like dried peppers as well. So I usually have a fair selection of dried peppers to make moles and things like that with, but I don't necessarily think everybody needs that in their house, but I will say it's nice to have a little chili day. Arbo on the house and guajillo peppers because you can do so many different dishes with it, so.
Rip Esselstyn:
Now you're just showing off. Now, what about sugars? Because it seems like every five years there's a new coconut sugar date, it's date sugar. It's black strap molasses, or it's maple syrup. It's Agave nectar. Do you have a favorite that you use across the board or does it depend on your mood?
Chef Stephanie:
This one actually doesn't depend on my mood. It depends on the dish that I'm making. So if I'm baking something, when you think about the chemical structure of that sugar, it can drastically impact the final product. So I will tend to still stick to organic cane sugar. I'm not baking a ton in my life just because it's a lot of sugar although arguably making sweets at home is a little bit different than gorging on pre-processed sweet. But still. So organic, cane sugar, but Agave's great because of the lower glycemic index, but then you go into the whole stevia, monk fruit, go on and on and on. Personally I find Stevia a little bitter, so I stay away from that as sweetener. There are a lot of sweeteners out there and they all have different flavors. Coconut sugar's interesting. It's got a depth of flavor. Bait sugar's really interesting too and kind of-
Rip Esselstyn:
That seems to be very popular right now because you're getting basically just pulvarized dates with all the fiber in, the phytonutrients, antioxidants. It's not so much an empty calorie. Yeah.
Chef Stephanie:
Right. Exactly. And that's the thing is like you have to think about what are you using that sweetener for? Is it just for sweetness or is it there something else you're going to do with it? Growing up on the east coast, real maple syrup, not the corn sugar maple flavor stuff, I'm particularly fond of, or even maple sugar, but it wouldn't use it to make my sweet potato brownies. But I will say, if I'm making like a chocolate avocado moose. Typically, I like to use dates without the seeds, just because of that fiber and that caramel note that they bring to it. It's not great for everything, but there are applications where it makes sense. So I like to use natural sweeteners, but sometimes you got to splurge. So it depends on what I'm making and what it's going to do to that final product, but.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. One of our favorite desserts lately at our house is we get these amazing medjool dates from the tea state farms. They're just so wet and they just almost melt in your mouth. And we take them, we take the seeds out, we cut them in half, put a little doll up of peanut butter in there. Yes. And, and then my kids also to put a little bit of dark chocolate chips on top of a peanut butter and it is just like, oh, like a decadent and so good.
Chef Stephanie:
Oh yeah. My first college assignments rock, we used to do a friend, a couple friends of mine. We would meet every Tuesday to read out loud together and we would make peanut butter stuff dates. That was our thing. I don't know why it was our thing, but it's such a magical treat. I also love dried figs with a little bit of almond butter in the middle. And you can dip it in dark chocolate if you wanted to temper it, or you could sense the chocolate as well. But very nice dessert, especially when you have a beautiful dried fruit so I love it.
Rip Esselstyn:
So in wrapping up, I want to say we've been very fortunate in that for our last medical immersion retreat that we had in Sedona, we actually, and you were probably an integral part of this, you guys provided us with three Escoffier interns that came and were boots on the ground in the kitchen. It was a total win-win, I think, for both the interns and for us. And this is a relationship that we're building on and we've got three more coming to our Black Mountain Retreat just around the corner. But want to thank you for that. Do you call them internships or externships?
Chef Stephanie:
So we call them externships. The reason why is because it's external from their culinary learning at the institution. It's weird. It's very common in culinary schools to be called externships. But every other field pretty much has internships. Same difference. But externships. Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
So you said something when I was doing my research that I loved, you said, "This is an exciting and vibrant..." No, you said, "Exciting and vibrant plant-based dishes is the wave of the future." And you don't have to look any farther than 11 Madison Park and what they're doing just to see how this re really is. I think if you really want to flex your culinary muscles, plant-based is where it's at.
Chef Stephanie:
Yeah, absolutely true. When we think about the culinary industry, there's some finesse to searing protein and cooking protein. But there's so much more that goes into preparing beautiful, vibrant, nutrient dense plant-based dishes. And honestly, that is, in my opinion, much more of a skill than creating a much more standard American diet plate of mashed potatoes, probably overcooked steak, maybe some canned green beans. That doesn't make me hungry. It doesn't make me excited about food, but plant-based cooking does, because there's just so many textures and flavors and ways that you can play with even just a carrot. And it's exciting.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Yeah. Now your grandmother would've found that very exciting. Did your grandmother get to see what you've turned into and your love for food? Is she still alive?
Chef Stephanie:
She is still alive. She is struggling a little bit with her memory nowadays. She's back in Connecticut. It's funny because when I started going vegan, she had a hard time accepting it because it was foreign to her that somebody could subsist, not on the way she eats food. So I remember her one time it was a holiday, I think it must have been Christmas or something like that and I came home from I must have been high school. And she turned to me and she goes, "You're still on that diet?" I'm like, "Yes, I am." In my head I went, "You're still living. So yes, it's true." But I was not that sarcastic with her.
Chef Stephanie:
But it's been interesting just because I think she sees me still as a little kid, which is, I think it's very natural for almost everybody. When people grow, you still consider them however you first met them or different memories. So I think she's proud of where I've drawn from and my father will never tell her this and I hope she never hears this, but my father one time did say my perogies were better than hers. So I will take that as the highest compliment.
Chef Stephanie:
But she had many kids. She was feeding a lot of people in a very different time period. And at that point, highly processed foods was a marker of modernization and a marker of wealth. So I can't really blame her for preparing foods in a very different way than what I would consider wealth but I digress.
Rip Esselstyn:
No, no, we're in a different time period. No doubt about it. Stephanie, this has been really an absolute joy. Thank you so much for coming on the PLANTSTRONG podcast. If people want to know more about you and Escoffier, if they're interested in taking the one of your plant-based courses, where can they go?
Chef Stephanie:
Yeah, they can go to our websites, it's www.escoffier.edu. So that's E-S-C-O-F-F-I-E-R.edu. You may be able to find my information on the website. Candidly, we all have faculty bios, so my contact information should be there. But candidly, I'm always happy to talk to people about plant-based because it's such a big part of my life. So my e-mail is very long, but Rip, I think you have it, but we're happy to share. I'm happy to share it.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay. We'll put in the show notes.
Chef Stephanie:
Perfect. Perfect. Yeah. I'm happy to spell it, but it's just going to confuse people.
Rip Esselstyn:
Very good. Stephanie, thank you so much.
Chef Stephanie:
Oh, thank you. This has been such a pleasure.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Yeah. Right back. All right, will you do a closeout with me? Just repeat after me.
Chef Stephanie:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Peace.
Chef Stephanie:
Peace.
Rip Esselstyn:
Engine two.
Chef Stephanie:
Engine two.
Rip Esselstyn:
Keep it PLANTSRONG.
Chef Stephanie:
Keep it PLANTSTRONG.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Chef Stephanie:
Awesome.
Rip Esselstyn:
Escoffier has campuses in Boulder, Colorado, and right here in Austin, Texas. But don't fret if you're not in Boulder or Austin, they also have comprehensive online programs as well, including a Plant-based Culinary Arts Program. We'll link to that in the show notes on the episode page at planstrongpodcast.com. We'll see y'all next week. And until then, keep it PLANTSTRONG.
Rip Esselstyn:
The PLANTSTRONG podcast team includes Carrie Barrett, Laurie Kortowich, Ami Mackey, Patrick Gavin and Wade Clark. This season is dedicated to all of those courageous true seekers, who weren't afraid to look through the lens with clear vision and hold firm to a higher truth. Most notably, my parents, Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn Jr. And Anne Crile Esselstyn. Thanks for listening.
