#284: Chef AJ is Thriving in the Face of Cancer
As many know, our beloved Chef AJ announced in November 2024 that she had been diagnosed with lung cancer. Shortly after that diagnosis, she agreed to come on the PLANTSTRONG Podcast– even though there were still many unknowns. Her vulnerability and resilience is a gift for all of us.
Rather than retreating into silence, she has chosen to share her story and focus on thriving in the face of adversity, inspiring others who may be facing similar challenges.
Throughout the conversation, AJ emphasizes:
The importance of maintaining hope
Having a robust support system
Her 7 Foundations to Healing or Thriving: Faith, Family, Fitness, Food, Forgiveness, Friends, Fun
The role of a whole food plant-based lifestyle in her health journey
How humor has become a vital tool in coping with her circumstances even when dealing with crippling anxiety
Forgiveness and emotional healing
This heartfelt episode not only sheds light on the realities of living with a new diagnosis, but also serves as a beacon of hope for those navigating their own battles, reinforcing that diagnosis does not define destiny.
Episode Highlights
2:29 Chef AJ's Cancer Diagnosis
4:03 Welcoming Chef AJ
6:20 Opening Up About Cancer
17:10 Understanding the Diagnosis
21:26 The Importance of Support
32:26 Chef AJ’s 7 Foundations to Healing
38:53 Nutrition's Role in Her Healing
44:32 The Challenge of Forgiveness
49:06 Living Life with Meaning
55:31 Humor as a Coping Mechanism
1:08:53 Future Plans and Hope
1:10:46 Closing Thoughts and Support
Episode Resources
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Full Episode Transcription via Transcription Service
[0:00] I'm Rip Esselstyn, and you're listening to the PLANTSTRONG Podcast.
Introduction to Chef AJ's Journey
[0:05] As many of you are aware, our beloved Chef AJ announced in November that she had been diagnosed with lung cancer. Shortly after that diagnosis, AJ agreed to come on and chat with me, even though there were still many unknowns. Her vulnerability and resilience is a gift for all of us. And I'll have that conversation with Chef AJ right after this.
Join the PLANTSTRONG Community
[0:36] If you're enjoying the podcast, I want to include you in the conversation. Join the PLANTSTRONG online Facebook community where I'll invite you to post questions that you'd like to hear answered from our upcoming guests on the podcast. Click the show notes or search PLANTSTRONG official group on Facebook. The reviews are in and our all new PLANTSTRONG meal bundle plan is helping people unlock real success utilizing a whole food plant-based lifestyle. Susan from Fishers, Indiana says, I'm on day five and feel like a million bucks. George from Hartford wrote to say, Hey Rip, thanks for the new bundle and meal plan. I've gifted it to my son who has agreed to finally give the lifestyle a try.
[1:33] He will benefit from the no recipe meals. Thanks for working to make the lifestyle accessible. Well, George and Susan and everyone who's reached out, Thank you for giving our new bundle a try. Our team designed seven days of meals made from PLANTSTRONG products, plus a small list of ingredients that you can find at any grocery store. The bundle includes a digital download of the grocery list, day-by-day menu, a quick batch cook guide, and a box of curated pantry products delivered right to your door. It couldn't be any easier or more delicious to test drive the lifestyle and experience what it feels like to be fully fed and fueled with PLANTSTRONG Nutrition. Simply go to PLANTSTRONG.com today and then click on the all new meal plan bundle.
Chef AJ's Cancer Diagnosis
[2:30] It's a call no one wants to get. And it's a diagnosis that no one wants to hear. Stage 3 lung cancer. In November of 2024, Chef AJ announced that she was, in fact, battling with cancer. It was a shocking diagnosis, especially for someone who has been such a plant-based advocate for almost 50 years. And at first, as you can imagine, AJ was scared to make the announcement for fear of all the backlash that she was sure to receive about being so healthy.
[3:13] How can a healthy person get so sick? Well, instead of hiding, Chef AJ has turned her news into a new personal mission to help others with her YouTube channel, where she's posting daily interviews with doctors and survivors on thriving in the face of cancer. She's facing this journey with bravery, action, and her trademark sense of humor, and I love her for it. We recorded this conversation before the holidays, so I would encourage you to follow her social channels for up-to-the-minute news, but I wanted to make sure you hear it so you too can shower our beloved AJ with the support that she needs at this time.
Welcoming Chef AJ
[4:03] Chef AJ, welcome back to another episode of the PLANTSTRONG Podcast. It's so fantastic to see you, to be with you. And it's so weird having you be on the podcast without having your Chef AJ, you know, apron on and making something for us. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I'm a person too. I'm just a chef. Incredible. I had no idea. Yeah, but I do. I do. I feel most at home though when I'm cooking though. Yeah. Yeah. Well, uh, I just want to say you look fabulous. You look fabulous. And what is with that shirt? It's so wild. It's got holes everywhere. You know, this is what I had. I mean, I was going to wear my kale shirt, you know, but it's just, I know I love purple. It's my power color. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it works, especially with that hair. Yeah, I love the hair to match the shirt. I love it. Well, I want to say thank you for coming on. And I watched your Chef AJ live where you announced to everybody that you had been diagnosed with lung cancer.
[5:22] And watched every second of it. And I just want to say that, I was so incredibly moved by your courage, by your openness, your willingness to talk about something so incredibly personal. And then also, I think that Matt Lederman did a wonderful job also kind of helping you talk about it, moderate the conversation, so to speak. And um and it's it's obviously something it's a topic that's it it's uncomfortable to talk about, but i i immediately reached out to you to see if you'd be willing to come on and talk about it because it's life right and life is it's messy and this is just kind of at this point i think it's the hand that you were dealt and i love the fact that you're dealing with
Opening Up About Cancer
[6:18] it the best that you possibly can. And so I would just, you know, I have no set agenda here, really. I just want to talk to you and see, listen, you know, how near and dear to me and the Esselstyn family you are.
[6:35] And I would just like to better understand where you are and what we can do to support you, not only myself and the family, but also the PLANTSTRONG family that's listening. Oh, my God. Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. And, you know, your mom was one of the first few people I told when I told only literally a handful of people, friends and family. And she's just been so incredibly supportive, calling me, texting me, emailing me, you know, being my greatest cheerleader. So I really appreciate that about her and your family. So you know it's it was really hard to come out I mean it's so funny you know be easier to come out for other things I think than that because I was given a lot of advice that I shouldn't do it because it could hurt the plant-based movement and you know I respect that very much because as somebody who's been an ethical vegan almost 50 years I didn't want to come out with this announcement that this OG vegan now has cancer and have other people say we'll see the vegan diet doesn't work, but we know that there are other reasons people get cancer than just.
[7:37] And I'm glad I did it because I got to tell you, as somebody who's had anxiety my whole life, just such a tremendous boulder was lifted off my chest just to be able to share it. And I am hearing, Rip, I am hearing from so many people, not just in the plant-based world, but in the world in general, that not only have cancer or survive cancer, but long-term survivors, you know, people with lung cancer that have survived 10 and 17 years. And I'm going to actually change the focus of my work now to really deal dealing with thriving in the face of cancer because I did not have hope for a very long time because I could not get into any of the services that one normally gets when they're diagnosed with cancer because it took a year and a half to get an oncologist but there is support out there and there is hope and I don't want people to go through what I did not having any when when there is some and I'm going to be featuring those kinds of people.
[8:31] But, you know, it's funny because I, you know, you always tell shirts that, you know, you and I have joke about kale and, you know, and, you know, I do a lot of standup comedy and that's my, that's my therapy. And I, one of the jokes I was recently coming up with is like, you know, Hey, you know, if I knew I was going to be a cancer, I wouldn't have eaten so much kale, you know, of course, that's a joke because you can't just throw kale at everything. Although kale is extremely delicious and nutritious, but I'm hearing from a lot of people, Rip, in the plant-based world that I can't mention their names because they don't want to come out. And that's their decision. I think people should decide to do what's best for them because they're also afraid. Like, well, you know, what are the people going to think if me as this plant-based influencer or author now tells people? And it's amazing how many people other than me in the plant-based world either have cancer or have had cancer and they're keeping silent about it. And that's fine if that's their decision.
[9:25] But I feel that in some ways you can actually help more people by revealing your truth. And a few psychologists reached out to me after the show and said, one of the things that they always tell their patients is you're only as sick as your secrets. And just sharing it was like, and I wanted to do it sooner.
Sharing the Burden
[9:42] I was going to with Dr. McDougall. He was going to be my, you know, like what Dr. Matt Lederman did. And then he had the nerve, the nerve to die. And so I kind of tabled that for a while but I'm now kind of like a little bit of a deer in the headlights because now I feel that well already I told people so now I got to keep telling them like what I'm going to do because part of me after I said this is what's happening wanted to like okay but I'm not going to tell you anything else I'm going to keep my treatment private but Dr. Goldhamer said no don't do that and you know I respect him very much and I am going to tell people what I'm going to do and you know what somebody's going to be pissed off whatever I do and.
[10:19] I don't have enough lifetimes to do every single thing that people are telling me what I should do. It cracks me up when people say, if I were you, I would, because that is the, no, you wouldn't. Because if you were me with my genetic history and my liver anxiety, you may not do that. So I can't see every single doctor that's recommended, drink every single tea that's been recommended, take every supplement. I do appreciate people reaching out. So my journey is going to be my journey. I have no idea what it looks like. Am I scared? Heck, yes. I mean, I can't really think of very much scarier than this, but, you know, it's it helps that I'm able to share it because there are people that are coming forward that went through similar experiences. And it's really giving me hope when people, you know, get my I mean, I'm not giving everybody my number, obviously. But like when when when the doctor emails the help desk and said, you know, I'm I'm a lung cancer survivor stage for 10 years. Would you like to talk? It's very, very healing to hear that it's not always a death sentence, you know? Yeah.
[11:23] So can you tell us a little bit more about your diagnosis and where you are like today with the size of the tumors and what stage are you and all that? Absolutely. So I almost wish you would wait just another week to do this because I will know so much more tomorrow because tomorrow I'm finally getting what's known as a tissue biopsy. That's where they take a needle. It's called a core needle biopsy. And that's where they hope to get as much tissue as possible to do the genetic testing and give you what the actual staging is. So right now, my staging has been done by PET scan. And the last time I had a PET scan was October 18th, the day that I actually went to True North to attempt another water fast to shrink the tumors. And according to the PET scan, my staging is stage three. And the reason I jumped from stage 1A to stage three is because the tumor had doubled in size. And I want people to know it didn't just double between CAT scans. This doubling time was about two years in the making. So the primary tumor that I have in my left lower lobe, that's about two millimeters from my aorta, that started the first time it was seen, which was April 14th.
[12:33] No excuse me March 23rd 2023 it was 14 millimeters so now it's doubled it's now 28 millimeters which is 2.8 centimeters and because now I have what's known as a met or a metastasis I only have one thank god and it's in my bronchial lymph node that's how come they jumped me up to stage three the thing that concerned me is when the the Stanford oncologist told me this on November 5th he said well now we have to get a brain MRI to see if the cancer is spread to your brain and bones. And so I did have that a few days ago and thank God. Yeah. But here's the thing. My problem isn't cancer. My problem is anxiety of having cancer because for 40 days and 40 nights, just like in the Bible, I worried what the MRI was going to show. It took that long to get the MRI scheduled and to get the results. But if I don't have cancer in my brain and my bones and like, that was just a great, like, I remember crying when I read it. It was like, I was so happy that it didn't spread there, you know? So, so then that.
[13:34] So definitively then means that it has not metastasized to those. Outside of the lung, right. But the one metastasis I have is still in the lung and it's very close to the tumor in a bronchial lymph node. But they don't like it. I mean, nobody likes cancer, but especially oncologists, when they see it growing or spreading, they don't like it at all. And, you know, I don't know yet what I'm going to do for treatment because the truth is now without the tissue biopsy, I mean, there's really no definitive treatment offered. And so generally the gold standard for lung cancer is to remove the tumor.
[14:11] And that was offered to me early on when it was smaller. The thing is, is they couldn't get what's called clear margins, clean margins. So I would have, if I do do the surgery, and I'm not saying never now, I would lose or will lose my entire left lower lobe. And because I've had asthma my whole life and COPD as an adult, I just felt like I'm like you. I'm like an exercise maniac, especially since you're being diagnosed with cancer, because Dr. Terry Shantani said, you've got to really up the exercise. Exercise is so important, you know, cancer. And will you let people know who Dr. Terry Shantani is if they don't know who he is? I love Dr. Terry Shantani. He is a doctor in Hawaii on the mainland who bought Dr. John McDougall's practice many years ago for the total sum of one dollar. He wrote the peace diet and he, like you, follows a whole food, plant based, oil free, starch based diet. And he helps the people of Hawaii who often have, you know, problems with diabetes and obesity do that. And so, you know, I think about the exercise is so important to me now because it helps anxiety. that am I going to be able to exercise to the degree I am now without that left lower lobe? And nobody seems to know the answer. I just had some pulmonary function tests repeated and some of the surgeons are saying, yeah, it's good enough, but nobody knows what it's like to live without a lobe until you live without a lobe. So I've had a past...
[15:37] Previous past experiences with general anesthesia, where I've stopped breathing. And unless, until and unless somebody can get to the bottom of that, like either with genetic testing, or an anesthesiologist really takes this seriously, they won't do lobectomies without general anesthesia. And the reason I'm able to get the tissue biopsy tomorrow, is that is a general anesthesia free procedure. My doctor is willing to do it with nothing, because I'm hardcore that way. I had my endoscopy done and my colonoscopy done without any sedation. And so he says he will do it with nothing. But they always do put an IV in just in case, you know, if you're really uncomfortable, they give you a little bit of juice. And by juice, I don't I mean, like light sedation, like like something called Versed. I told him I didn't want the fentanyl. So I mean, I can't tell you what it's going to be like until I have it.
[16:24] But I just at first, they didn't want to do the needle biopsy because the tumor was too small. And it's hard, you know, when tumors are small, it's hard to get them through a needle biopsy, especially when the tumor is in the dead center of your chest. But the interventional radiologist feels with the size now that he's going to be able to hit it. And I did have something called a blood biopsy, which is interesting. In our country, they don't consider that like meaningful. In other countries, I've interviewed some doctors or in England, people will do that. Whereas it's a lot less invasive than a surgical biopsy where they're just taking your blood. And mine showed in December of 2023 that I was 99.6% positive or probable for what's called lung adenocarcinoma, non-small cell lung cancer.
Understanding the Diagnosis
[17:11] Let's go back just for a second. And because, you know, you mentioned Dr. Terry Shintahi and then exercise. So I just want to talk about those two things for a second. You know, you give one of the most brilliant calorie density lectures that I've ever seen. you do such an amazing job with it. And you referenced, I think, Jeff Novick and I think Terry.
[17:34] And, and who's the woman from Penn State that's done? Dr. Barbara Rolls. Barbara Rolls. Yes. But Terry, you know, I give a calorie density talk as well. And Terry did such an amazing job with his eat more index, where if you want to eat 2,500, 2,500 calories of food, and he shows you like how many pounds it would have to be. So I think that I went, he's great. You've got to have him on your show. He's, he's just, he's a wonderful human and not a lot of people know about him. I will. I absolutely, is he still, he's still in Hawaii, right? He's still in Hawaii. I'll hook you up. Yeah. That'd be great. So the other thing, so you mentioned exercise. Tell me, I, cause I, I, I'm trying to picture what kind of exercise do you engage in? I just can't, do you walk? Do you swim? Do you bike? So what I do is I own a spin bike, not a fancy Peloton. I got a used Kaiser many years ago when Dr. Doug Lisle said.
[18:30] You know, somebody like you, if you have to spend the time to get in the car and drive to the gym and look for a parking space, you're never going to do it. He goes, just buy a damn bike. So I did. And I spend every day for a minimum of 60 minutes at the highest intensity I can do on that given day. But I do the whole thing standing. So because I want to be drenched with sweat. You know, I don't I don't want to just take a stroll on that. You know, I don't want to. I mean, you really for in general, it's better. But especially for cancer, you want to get all those toxins out. You want to really sweat. And so I usually what I do is I do something else on the bike to distract me because I don't love exercise. So I'll play words with friends. I'll, I'll listen to a podcast like, like yours, or just do something fun or talk on the phone. And the next thing I know, an hour has passed. And when I have the time, I try to go 90 minutes. Okay, great.
[19:15] So you mentioned a couple people in your life, but I'd love to talk about your support system that you've kind of put in place, having now been diagnosed with lung cancer, and all the emotional challenges that you must be, you know, faced with.
[19:36] And can you talk about some of the support systems you have in place right now to deal with? Absolutely. And I wish I had known about these sooner. And that's another reason I want to do this series thriving in the face of cancer. So people know, I mean, if they if some people like to do things that privately, and they they can absolutely do that. But I would say to those people, and at least this is what I've been told. And when I've looked at the research, it shows that people that get support do better, in general, with any chronic disease, especially cancer. And so the thing is, is you got to find a social worker because I didn't even really know what a social worker was. I know that that was my mom's profession. But as a little kid, it's like, what do you do? I don't know. These are the men and women of the hospital systems that know what's going on and they can get you into support groups for whatever your disease is. But in my case, cancer in general and often your specific type of cancer. And these actually can become your lifeline. It's kind of like, you know, I never drank alcohol, but I know I have friends that are recovering alcoholics and their lifeline is going to AA meetings and they don't just go to AA meetings when they're doing poorly or about to relapse or have relapse, but they do it in general. They make this a priority. And I spend more time now going to these groups, but they're they're just not.
[20:56] I can tell you all day what it's like to have cancer and you'll be like, oh, yeah, I'm sorry to hear that. But until you have it, like the kind of anxiety you feel and what you're going through with the medical system and just with your treatments.
[21:07] You're with a group of people that have basically been there, done that. And so in all my support groups, I'm like the newbie. And it's like they're not laughing at me in that way, but they're like, you know, like because they've been through it. Right. And a lot of these people have had recurring cancers or different stages.
The Importance of Support
[21:24] But it's just, they become your rock. And I don't know how people, I have some friends right now that have cancer that have kept it to themselves. And I'm like, please go, just go one time and they're free. And what's wonderful about them is even if you don't like, I'm in a support group at Stanford. I don't go to Stanford. Like all the hospitals have them and you don't have to be a patient at that hospital.
[21:45] And so it's pretty cool. And they have support for what they call caregiver or family. Like, I don't think my husband's doing very well, but he's a guy and he's stoic and he's not saying anything. And I'm like, please just go to one meeting and then you can get supported if you're a family member of somebody with cancer. So there are things in place that I never knew of. And there's a lot of people out there, I mean, that want to help people with cancer, either because they had it or they had a family member with it. Because, I mean, listen, no disease is fun and no chronic disease is fun, but there's something a little bit unique about cancer and that it's just so unpredictable, you know, and what may work for one may not work for another. And that's why, while all this advice is well-meaning, I don't think people just understand that just because it worked for your, you know, Aunt Gladys, it doesn't mean it's necessarily going to work for me because there's so many different types of even the same kind of cancer and what a person will respond to.
[22:42] And so, you know, my feeling is, is I'm going to try everything. I'm not going to leave any stone. I mean, I'm not necessarily try everything all at the same time, because I really don't know if I'll go the conventional route, because part of me really doesn't want to take any medicine. And chemo sounds terrible. I don't know anybody that's had chemo that said, boy, that was great. Let's do that again. There are people that have had surgery that said that wasn't so bad after they recovered. And the same thing with radiation. But if there's something that I can do that's gentler, like immunotherapy, or maybe some off-label drugs or something that's less toxic, at least at first, I would like to try that. No, I have heard that they've come...
[23:21] Light years with immunotherapy yeah that's what i really want because even Dr. Goldhamer who as you know true north he's not a big fan of the conventional treatments he said that's what i really want you to look into but without the tissue they can't just guess and so that that could be very helpful being a highly anxious person my fear now i don't i'm i'm over the fear that i'm going to get killed during the needle biopsy i'm pretty sure that's not going to happen that's at least with the guy that's doing it he's been doing it 29 years said haven't still a patient yet. And he said, he did say, you are the most anxious patient I've ever had, you know, because most of the time when you have a procedure like that, you meet your doctor in the operating room. And I'm like, I need to meet you first. He met with me an hour. He talked to me for another half hour. He was really, so I felt really, really comfortable with him. But you know, there is a risk and he acknowledges that sometimes with the best effort, they don't get all the tissue they need to make a conclusive diagnosis, which is unfortunate because then you would probably have to do it again. And then the other risk I'm told in about 20% of the cases is they do puncture your lung, which isn't necessarily life threatening because while you're in the hospital and then they, you know, they have to admit you and give you a chest tube. So, you know, um, people are saying, well, can, can you live stream it? And I'm like, well, um, you know, I could, except the hospital just doesn't, doesn't allow it. I mean, I would, if people find it interesting. So, yeah. Yeah. So I'd love to talk about some of the other support people you have in place and you talked about it.
[24:49] Um with with matt the other day so for for starters Alan Dr. Goldhamer True North you said you were you were there recently you attempted to go back and do a fast why the word attempt well no i i did do a fast but you know you hear about these people that these people and they do 40 day fasts right and i i mean i don't know how that's even possible because i can never seem to get to day four without having either vomiting or blood sugar of 46 it's hard because i don't have the reserves right now.
[25:20] Maybe when I was, you know, 80 pounds heavier, it might have been easier, I suppose. But it's still a true place of healing. And I love going there. Because when I went there as a patient in 2011, I was very fortunate to be assigned to the doctor that's been there the longest Dr. Peter Sultana. And I've always kept him in my world, like, just talking to him from time to time, just about whatever was going on in my regular life. And because they do virtual consults. But once I was diagnosed, I was I was making a virtual appointment every month. So So that was very comforting. And now every two weeks. And so they do know what's going on. But I'm very grateful to Dr. Goldhamer because I mentioned on my live, he was the second person I called right after my comedy teacher. Because as you know, when you're diagnosed with cancer, the first person everyone should call is their stand-up comedy teacher. Yeah.
[26:07] You also mentioned Doug Lisle. So Doug has played an important role. Doug has played an important role in this. Yes. And well, also, you know, Doug, I believe it was Stanford where he was a statistics professor. So he would help me with things, understand things like doubling times and more than that, just helping me understand the anxiety. So, yeah, lots of sessions with Dr. Lisle since then. And even even now, just for just for life things in general. So he's been enormously helpful as is Dr. Goldhamer and just true north in general has just I mean, it's been fantastic. You know, and when Dr. McDougal was alive, he like anytime I would get scared or anxious, he would just hop on Zoom and, you know, just really, really comfort me and say things like, I really think you're going to beat this. You're going to die with the tumor instead of from it. And he actually came to some of my doctor appointments with me, the ones on Zoom. And, you know, you know what he's like. So they don't know. Nobody messes with Dr. McDougal. No, no. You also, there was this other strange person that was mentioned several times, the magical mark. Yeah, it's so, you know.
[27:10] I, I'm not trying to hide him from people. Although part of me feels like if I tell the world about him, I'll never get an appointment. So sometimes, you know, some people are more open to experience than other people. And there's a lot of people that, you know, you got to show them the data, you got to prove to them that it, that it exists before they try it. But when Dr. McDougall had passed away, which was June 22nd, I had texted several of my friends and colleagues because you know I was obviously sad and I wanted them to know because we did a memorial service for him and I remember texting Matt and you know he said you're kidding and I'm like no and he goes oh my god and I said and yeah he goes how are you handling this and I said I'm really sad because he was helping me with my cancer he goes what do you mean you're cancer I'm like oh shoot I guess you're one of the people I didn't tell and so then he kind of just you know.
[28:00] Came back into my life it's I mean we've always been friends for like I think since I met him in 2007 or so, but he sent me a lot of this compelling data that some of the plant-based doctors don't believe in, or at least some of the people that I've talked to, where that stress has a big impact on life in general, but on your ability to fight disease in particular.
[28:22] And this was stuff in the medical literature that basically said that while you can't really say that stress causes cancer, having stress is not a good thing when you have it. It can cause the tumors to metastasize and things like that and he said you know will you just trust me and do this thing and i'm like yeah whatever and so i did this thing it's i can tell you exactly what this guy mark does um if you saw the movie inside out or inside out to the movie the pixar movie i haven't okay all right so it's an adorable movie that where there's this young girl named riley and she has these parts inside of her so in other words the idea was is she there's part of her this joy anger sadness that we're all composed of different emotions but in the movie they were actual parts and so they were cartoon characters right she was a she was a human child and these little parts were more like cartoon characters and they were kind of running the control panel and so if you understand that movie you'll understand something called ifs or internal family system or parts work which was developed by Dr. Richard Schwartz.
[29:25] And the idea is, is that we have all these different parts and that the parts are there for a reason. So an example, like, so part, I have anxiety is one of my parts. And instead of trying to shut anxiety up or medicate her with psychiatric drugs, you need to want to, you want to listen to what they have to say. And the idea is, is you can learn to accept them and love them and then heal as a whole person. And so the work with Mark isn't to overcome cancer, he's not a doctor, but it's he he just created a very warm space of like.
[30:00] And see, again, things that are experiential are very hard to describe, but it's partly because of who he is as a person. He's very gentle. He's got a very calm voice. And he he just provided a space for me to heal. Now, every time I do the work with him, it's like I say to him, I say, I'm like, this is stupid. This isn't going to work. This is just like I'm doing it. I'm resisting it. And yet it's helping me. That's all I can say. But the thing is, is it's not a one and done. And what I mean by that, see, Dr. Lisle, for many people is a one and done. Like if you book a session with Dr. Lisle, if you have a specific problem, like, you know, your spouse or your child or your coworker, one session with Dr. Lisle is often enough for you to get an answer. But with this kind of work, because we always have different emotions, we have these different parts. And sometimes they're what Mark says, they're driving the bus. And the problem is, is most of my life, anxiety has been driving the bus.
[30:51] Right he's been driving the bus is because he has been trying to save me specifically from getting another operation and dying because the last time i got an operation i stopped breathing from the general anesthesia so this is i call him the magic unicorn and i have since referred actually several people to him and again it's not for everyone but i would encourage anyone to try it you can't just do one session and expect to be cured you know it's just kind of you know he's not the ozempic of mental health right right right um and what about what about charles and bailey i know that how you know they must be your rocks well bailey unfortunately got sick at the same time as me with she had two strokes mini strokes but she you know her her days are numbered so it's i think it's harder for charles because he's seeing the two ladies in his life kind of go through so you know i try to i try to be positive and that that's where humor comes in it's like i don't know if you're familiar with a movie that Roberto Benigni won an Oscar for called My Beautiful Life.
[31:49] Where it's basically a comedy in the concentration camp. And you go, well, how can you do that? That's disrespectful. But the idea wasn't they were making fun of the Holocaust. It's like this was his reality. So find joy in it. And that's what I really, that has really been like my motto, find joy. Like I created for myself what I call the seven foundations to healing or seven foundations to thriving. And every day I make sure these seven things are part of my life. And these are in alphabetical order. Faith, family, fitness, food, forgiveness, friends, and fun. And so those are, those are for me, these don't have to be everybody's foundation,
The Seven Foundations
[32:24] but for me, that's what I'm really focusing on. And like, there was been too long where fun was just not in the, in the mix, right? Cause I was just really working hard, make enough money and you know, that kind of thing. And now the other F finances is like, I don't want to say I don't care. I still have to work, but my life isn't driven by, you know, social media likes, or I just, I mean, now I'm actually more present in my life because I don't check social media. I mean, I couldn't, I mean, cause it blew up, you know, I can't answer 3000.
[32:54] It's not possible. Or even the amount of email I have. So yeah. Can you, can you go through those seven one more time? Just a little slower. Sure. They're an alphabetical order. So the first one is faith. Yeah, I'm not a religious person, per se. I mean, I believe in God. I was raised Jewish Orthodox, actually, but I really haven't been at the temple since 1986 when my grandfather died. But I do have faith and of something greater than myself. And what I've learned from the many support groups that I have, and I'm sure there's going to be an exception out there. But all the people I know that are still alive with cancer say their faith is what got them through. So faith is really important to me. And that doesn't mean like praying or meditating. It just means that I start my day instead of, you know, checking email with something positive that's going to go in my brain. Maybe it's a podcast or I've been listening to Pastor Rick Warren a lot, Joe Dispenza, but something that's more uplifting. You know, than the news, which luckily I don't have TV. So I haven't watched the news since 2018. So something spending some time in faith before I get out of bed, you know, well, you just, you just mentioned Rick Warren. And I know, uh, I think in your podcast, you mentioned he has a quote that you, that, that you have embraced, you know, you can't deny the diagnosis, but you can define the verdict.
[34:14] That's that helped me so much. And that's what I'm attempting to do. Absolutely. So that, yeah, he's helped me a lot. I actually wrote it, you know, I don't, I don't write like fan letters, but I don't know if he'll ever read it, but I wrote how much it helped me just finding him at this time, because this podcast is called Daily Hope. And even if you don't want to listen to him, because maybe there is too much of religious bent for it, everybody needs Daily Hope in this world, whether they have cancer or not. And I do find myself going to, I don't want to say church because church connotes things to people, but I do find myself on the weekend going to as many places of worship as possible, even if it's not my faith, because for me, there's just something tremendously healing about being in that space of other people that also have hope, you know, and I'm not becoming any specific religion, but there's just something nice in hearing these messages and hearing the music. And so that's been, that's been really helpful to me. And that's something I'm going to continue. So I have a friend here who's also very open-minded named Trish, and we've been just trying a different church every week, you know, it doesn't matter the denomination because I I got to tell you that if you can get by some of the dogma, the message of just love and there's just good to be found there, at least for me at this time in my life, you know. So I've been I've been appreciating that very much. And then, of course, family, you know, faith, family.
[35:30] Spending time with Charles and Bailey is like my number one priority. And so when people, you know, offer me jobs, it's like, I don't know if I want to be away from Bailey eight days or Charles anymore. I'm going to please continue to do the jobs that I accepted before this. I have a couple next year, but for the most part, it's like, I don't want to be away from them. And that's, that's the thing with treatment because there's some really wonderful places I'm told that I could go for treatment, but if they can't go with me, I mean, I don't want to be away from them. I can't imagine somebody not allowing you to bring them with you.
[36:03] Give me an example. What's a job that you would do that takes you away for six, seven, eight days? Well, for example, and I have two of them next year, but it's incredibly healing. When I'm invited to be the guest chef at Rancho de Puerto in Mexico, it's an eight-day job out of the country. So I did accept two of those last year, and I'm not going to renege on my offer, but now I weigh things very carefully. And you know it's funny because it was so much freedom to be able to tell people because people were offering me jobs and I didn't want to accept them because I didn't I didn't know how fast I didn't I still have not got a symptom from cancer yet and so I didn't know like well I don't want to disappoint somebody and take a job and then find out you know so now I'm honest with them and I say you know this is the situation and of course I'm going to do the job and you know and they understand that now so but yeah being home and yes Charles and Bailey could go with me anywhere for treatment, but certain places where treatment has been recommended, like Germany or Mexico, it's not super feasible for them to go. But if it's in a medical institution somewhere in the United States, of course they can go. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And then, uh, and then fitness, we know about your hour and a half on the bike. Walking Bailey, but Bailey is so slow now. I cannot count that as fitness. I count that as family and fun because, because we got it most of the time we're pushing her in a buggy, but yeah, you know, fit, you know, I never.
[37:20] I never realized if, you know, cause you, you're, you're from a family of athletes. And so you had that gene in you, you know, your dad's an Olympic Gold medalist for God's sake. And your mother exercises like a maniac and your sister, and you were a competitive swimmer and triathlete. I got the fitness memo late in life. So it was a little harder for me to adopt that as a daily habit. It really wasn't until I was in my fifties, but now, you know, when, when things are positioned in a certain way, it makes it easier. So when Dr. Lisle said to me about 10 years ago, he goes, look, you know, because I wasn't exercising to lose weight because we know that that that's not a reason to exercise. I mean, it can help, but it's not really the primary thing. It's the food, which I want to tell you, it is the food. But I got to tell you, it's not just the food. There are other healing factors that I think are sadly overlooked often in our plant based world. But when Dr. Lisle said you know just think of exercise is your anti-anxiety and antidepressant medicine that you used to be on and then when he phrased it that way it's like okay well i would if i was on drugs i would get up in the morning and take that pill so now i just get up in the morning and i have to do it first because if i let the day get away i can find every reason not to get on the bike but it's almost like it's just a habit i get up i go to the bike it's done i don't have to think about it for another 24 hours, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, okay, let's talk about the food, right?
[38:41] And obviously, I think everybody knows that, you know, you are about as hardcore, a whole food plant-based SOS free advocate as there, as there is, but.
Nutrition's Role in Healing
[38:54] Like, and I know you've probably gotten every comment under the sun, but how, what role do you feel plant-based nutrition has played in your cancer journey? Right. Well, here's the thing, you know, nobody can say for sure, but even the doctors that don't necessarily believe in some of the things that we believe about the impact of nutrition on health, they have said to me, you know, it is your healthy diet and lifestyle that has kept this thing at bay for so long. That's what I've been told. That's what people seem to believe is the reason that I think I'm doing so well. And that if I do choose to have treatment, I might have an easier time or bounce back quicker. And so, yes, I'm an SOS free advocate in terms of the recipes I write. But I got this reputation of being Dr. Goldhamer perfect when I never really was.
[39:37] You know, in other words, when I create recipes, I want everybody for every diet style to be able to use them, including the people at True North or the NHA. but that doesn't mean that you personally can't sprinkle some salt on your recipe or you personally couldn't put some dates or something into it. So I've never been perfect with the salt. It's the heart. I mean, I don't cook with it. I just don't because I feel like people can add theirs if they want, but, but you know, I've gotten a little bit lazier as I get older and I'm not perfect with it. So things like ketchup and barbecue sauce and mustard condiments, for example, I, I, I can make them. I'm a chef, but I don't. I will say though, that, you know, my diet is a little bit more flexible now because I talk about calorie density. Well, I've kind of had to increase the calorie density of it because I was getting too skinny because I'd gotten down to 100 pounds at my water fast and that is underweight. And so I'm trying to get it back up to at least 110.
[40:29] So I got to eat some of those nuts. Now I got to eat a little bit of bread and a little bit of avocado because this is why, again, when you're a hammer, you see everything is a nail, but you and I so understand calorie density and believe in it. And that's why I really, if people want to lose weight, it just, it never fails you because just following the diet that I ate to lose weight is not, it couldn't, would not put any weight on me. I mean, I can eat all the potatoes, rice, you know, fruits, vegetables, and I couldn't gain any weight, you know? So I had to add more of the calorically dense foods, which are bread. And I don't eat a lot of it because I'd have to be gluten-free. And, you know, even when I'm eating it and enjoying And I'm like, you know, this isn't the healthiest thing I could be eating and nuts and seeds and avocado and things like that. You know, the more, as Dr. Goldhamer called the more concentrated calories. And it's funny because, you know, the conventional doctors don't think nutrition has anything to do with your getting cancer or your health. And a lot of times I've heard oncologists say, oh, you know what, you're going through this, you know, their goal is just to have the patient gain weight. It doesn't have to be healthy weight. Oh, just eat whatever you want. And, you know, like for about five minutes, I had a pity party. Well, poor me, I can eat whatever I want.
[41:36] I didn't want the unhealthy food because, and it's not about that. I thought like, it's not, it's not like it's going to give me cancer, but it was like, I almost was like, I don't feel good when I eat unhealthy food. I've eaten healthy food so long now that when I eat unhealthy food and I'm all about feeling good right now. And so, yeah, I just, um, yeah, you've got a bait. You've got a baseline for how you want to feel like at a minimum just by eating this way. I hear you loud and clear. Yeah, absolutely.
[42:08] And I'm lucky that everybody says, oh, sugar feeds cancer. She eats too many desserts with dates and bananas. I don't know why people think I just sit here, eat dessert all day. I don't, even though I wrote a dessert cookbook. I eat it sometimes. But most of the dessert I eat is fruit, to be honest, when I eat dessert. And most of the time, I'm so full from potatoes and sweet potatoes and veggies. I don't have room for dessert a lot of the time. All your incredible one-pot meals. So let's talk about some of the... And then I, but I'm still on your, your, of your seven F's we're on, we're on food here, but I would love to, for you to, you texted me some of the negative comments that people have said. Those are funny. We did a whole show about that. You did? Yeah. And it's just, it's just, they're just, what are some of the crazy things that people are saying caused your cancer? Oh, I wore an acrylic shirt once on the show. I wore a shirt with acrylic fibers. Yes. Okay.
[43:02] And what? And then the pressure cooker. What, what about the pressure cooker? Right. Well, here's the thing. Anytime you have, one of the things Dr. Letterman said is we all have cancer in our body, but it's so small that most of us can't detect it. And my tumors weren't detected until they were four millimeters, but that means whatever is in me has been growing for like over 20 years. I didn't even get a pressure cooker to like, I don't know, 10 years ago. And it's in, and I didn't get an air fryer till like maybe seven years ago. And people say, well, she colors her hair. I didn't start doing that till about five years ago. So, you know, I'm not saying these are, I don't know, you know, this is not what caused it. People, people really, I think discount often in our plant-based world or just in the world in general, the powerful effect that genetics has on you, on your life. And, you know, and of course, genetics loads the gun and diet lifestyle can pull the trigger, but I have a powerful, strong family history of cancer, having brother died of it, grandfather, uncle, father. I'm the first female that I know of that has had it, but you know, I.
[44:01] I mean, I don't know. Why does anybody get anything? But I do believe that I have to do healing in what you might say is more the emotional, spiritual realm more than just the physical, because I feel until I do that, I'm not going to heal. And those are things like I never that's why that's why when I talk about the magic unicorn markets, I almost don't want to talk about it because I never dealt with any kind of feelings or emotion like I always would sweep them under the carpet.
The Challenge of Forgiveness
[44:29] But they're saying for for me to get better, this is something I have to do. And it's funny because after food, the next F is forgiveness. And I think the third person I called after poor Charles was like the last to know, you know, it's like I'll tell him when I can. And so it was it was my stand up comedy teacher, Carrie. Then it was Dr. Goldhamer. And then I called Chris Wark and I've been in his program.
[44:51] Yeah. What he said to me, he said, you know, with the lifestyle isn't the problem here. You know, yeah, you can have more juices and more raw salads. He goes, but your problem is you need to forgive everyone. And so that has been the hardest of the F's and the hardest thing is. And that's what is one of the things I'm working on now is forgiveness. You know, of people that have hurt me and things like that. And in yeah so well what i would i would imagine so when you say it's the hardest it's the hardest thing kind of kind of squaring up and having the conversation with them because i would imagine afterwards afterwards i would imagine it feels great yeah the thing is is i i i'm willing to forgive but i don't have a template and so i don't always know how to do it and so that's where you know everybody says well just forgive and one of the things that's helped oh this is the other thing um a lot maybe some people you know it's so funny because I've asked people to pray for me and I'm like well I'm an atheist and I'm like okay well then you know send me a joke that's the second best thing but one of the things I have been doing is I've been going to talk to clergy people of different faiths and they always talk about forgiveness because in every religion there is something about it you know in Judaism there's Yom Kippur you know the day of atonement and one of the things that different clergy people have told me and I've talked to a Catholic priest and a Presbyterian minister and an Adventist pastor is that forgiveness doesn't mean reconciliation.
[46:12] So the other, the idea is, is that just be, if somebody has hurt you, especially in a, in a manner that you feel is unforgivable, you still need to forgive them for you, but that doesn't mean that they have to be in your life. And so I think what people understand is don't understand is that forgiveness doesn't always have to mean reconciliation. And so now that I understand that, I can hopefully move forward to things that involve just, I guess I don't have a template. And if there's an expert out there watching on forgiveness, they can teach me, you know, what is it that you actually have to do to forgive somebody? That's where I've been kind of stuck. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I would imagine too.
[46:51] Let's say you're, you're, you're, you're contacting somebody to forgive them. Yeah. But they aren't aware that you hurt them or whatever. So maybe you've got to take a couple steps back in order to, you know what I mean? To let them know, you don't know it, but you really hurt me back in 1983 when blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But I forgive you. And I'm not even sure you have to even be in touch with the person. And that's where the forgiveness work comes in. I think people have suggested writing letters or just talking in your, you know, it doesn't mean like you actually have to, especially if you were abused. You don't have to necessarily face the abuser. And this is where I'm still a little bit weak in knowing exactly what people do to forgive other people. Because people have forgiven the unforgivable in life. I mean, people have had far worse things that happened to them than me where people have forgiven.
[47:44] Somebody murdered their child and they've forgiven them. Now, that doesn't mean that when you forgive them, this is another mistake people make. People think if you forgive somebody, you're condoning their behavior. It is not what it means. And this is where I'm learning to, well, I feel like I have to do that. And, you know, it's funny because there was a book called Don't Sweat the Small Stuff. And in the scheme of things, compared to cancer, it's all small stuff now. So when I think about some of these perceived slights, and I say perceived slights because I'm a very sensitive person. And some of these things that hurt me, the other person may not have even intended it, right? But it really is about just letting it go because it's really irrelevant right now to my.
[48:28] Present into my future healing. But I'm just, you know, you really just have, it's almost like until I accepted the fact that I actually could die, did I have the courage to actually live? Hmm. Hmm.
[48:40] That's interesting. Can you say that one more time? Yeah. I finally had to, until I accepted the fact that I actually die from lung cancer, that I had the courage to actually live. And by, by living my life in a very meaningful way.
[48:54] Not just going through life as many people do, but really like, you know, and it just sounds, I feel like, like, again, Emily in our town,
Living with Meaning
[49:03] I feel so trite saying this, but it is, it is different. It's like you, you get a second chance. It's kind of like people I've never met them, but I've watched, I've been watching a lot of things about people with near death experiences that come back. It's like, like you see the world completely different when you feel that your time is limited and this is a message everybody's time is limited you just don't know it i have i've been woken up when when do you feel like that you had that epiphany or that aha moment was it two years ago when you first diagnosed or was it more recently when it grew and you're like wow this is great question it was when it was november 5th when when when you know when they were saying things like well you know you might want to get a death doula and you know you know like when people were like actually basically saying to me you know hey you know lady you could really die now like when it was stage one it felt like I guess I just didn't want to accept it and I didn't want to deal with it and it just seemed like the tumor was small and like I didn't have any symptoms but yeah when I jumped up to stage three with a met then it was like that was a wake-up call and I realized that I had to be willing to give up the life that I've been living to have the life that I'm supposed to be living now and it was like it's just like you know putting on the it's like just turning the.
[50:18] The cruiser around. So I guess in a way it's a gift, but it doesn't always feel like it. So at this point.
[50:29] And I'm sure you've like thought about this till the cows come home, but you, is it fair to say that you could live another six months or you could live another 20 years? You just have no idea at this point. I don't know. That's why, you know, that, that, that old adage, you know, in AA a day at a time, that's even too long for me sometimes. Cause on days that are hard, that's too long. So it's just, you know, this idea of the power of now it's, this is just, it's now yeah and and i i don't want people to have cancer or any disease but i hope they will get that message and if anything that you know you know all all the things in my life that i've tried to do to help the world in a positive way seem to pale in comparison by the message that i'm shouting now is that this is all you have all of you and just just you got to embrace it because it's our time on earth is very short anyway but it's like when you actually know that your days are numbered you live your life in I think at least for me in a more meaningful way and you know you don't do things you don't want to do anymore and I was doing a lot of that you know and sometimes resenting it just because you know I want people to like me and you know I've got to make money and you don't have to do that anymore I mean obviously people you obviously have to go work and make money, most people, but it's, it's just like, like an epiphany.
[51:53] Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's funny. I, you know, I'm 61 and I've got, you know, my children now are 10, 15, 17 and 89 S is 91. You know, these people that have always been superheroes in my life are now mortals. Right.
[52:15] And so I, and it seems like every year goes by quicker and quicker, the older I get. And so I have been thinking more and more about like, what God, death, like what is death and where do we go or where do we not go? And what is that next, um that next journey look like and you know no well nobody really knows right but but but but i want you to know my grandfather um barney cryle who introduced the um the lumpectomy in the united states his ironically his first wife my mother's mother died of breast cancer at the age of 55.
[53:05] And they wrote a book called More Than Booty. And, One of the last paragraphs he wrote, and I have this written out, AJ, so I got it right. But he said, and this was during her memorial service, life has been given and life has been taken away. Life and death are one, even as the river and the sea are one. Death is only a horizon and a horizon is but the limit of our sight. And I just think that's so beautiful. and wonderful and you know what you said about the older you get the faster it goes that's actually true because the older you get however long you're going to live is less time than what you've already lived yeah yeah big time um so i think i think we got through your seven f's i mean friends and fun so we got through we got through forgiveness friends and fun and and only surmounting yourself with people that really are friends you know that yeah they can support you And having, I mean, maybe fun isn't that big of a deal to other people, but for me it is because it's just, you have to have some lightness. And that's why when I was first doing stand-up comedy as somebody that was diagnosed with cancer, people were not laughing.
[54:22] And that's why I need to explain to them that, no, I really want you to laugh, not at me, but with me. And I'm not making fun of cancer, by the way, or other people with cancer. I'm making basically fun of myself and what I've been going through and the ability to handle that. I'm actually going to be performing it in Las Vegas, Labor Day weekend of next year at the Tuscany. I was asked to host a plant-based conference and I was just going to host it. And then they said, well, why don't you be in the comedy night? I'm like, okay. So now I got to really work really hard on getting the best set possible because. Wow. Well, you know, you are so, one of the things I've learned about you, because I've known you now since about maybe 2000 and, I don't know, four or five. When you first got us over to your place for dinner, Ann, Essie, and myself.
[55:11] You really, AJ, you're not only one of the most creative people that I know on the planet, you also are one of the hardest working. And you would give literally like the shirt off your back to somebody that needs it. So you're really an incredible human being.
Humor as a Coping Mechanism
[55:31] And why was I going there? What did you say that prompted me to say that? I'm trying to remember. About comedy and about fun and about laughing. Well, yes, but so you mentioned you're getting ready to do that stand-up bit in Las Vegas, right? And- I can't even imagine how you're like writing things down and working so hard to get it just right. I mean, you wrote me a song that followed, you know, Flintstones. Meet the Flintstones. You wrote one. Meet the Esselstans. They're a really skinny family. From the town of Cleveland, you will not believe how much they eat.
[56:14] But you also did one for me and the guys at Engine 2 when we first came out. Right i mean anyway so song parodies i'm i guess i'm a frustrated comedy writer so yeah it's but i i love i mean i love when people have a sense of humor about this because i really feel that that's the only thing that's going to get me through personally and you say i love when you know people that know now i love it when they say how are you and i go i got cancer how do you think i am you know i do it like that like in a funny voice but i have learned it's really helpful if people, instead of saying, how are you? If they say, how are you today? Because how are you is like, well, what do you mean? How am I? How am I mentally, emotionally, physically, financially, spiritually, but how are you right now? That's a better question to ask somebody with a chronic disease because the big how are you is usually a much longer, you know, and then I can just say, hey, you know, right now I'm feeling pretty good. I'm not feeling anxious. I have no, so that's just a little tip for all you well-meaning people out there. Instead of how are you, how are you right now?
[57:16] Yeah. One of my, one of my very, very good friends, his, his mother just died about a week and a half ago. And I called him up and I didn't, I didn't ask him, you know, how are you doing? But he said, one of the things that's really hard is everybody asks, how are you doing? And he's like, well, The truth of the matter is it's a really personal question and I don't really just can't answer that right now, but it's tough. Because you don't want to alienate people for asking because, you know, they care. That's why I said, just send me a joke because if you send me a joke, I know you're thinking to me. And then it opens up for me to be able to say, hey, you know, I'm really not doing well today. But it's, you know, the lifelines are not just the people that I've recently met in cancer support groups. There's certain people, and this is why the plant-based community is the most incredible community because the people that know, like, I mean, I have doctors and I don't even want to mention their name because some of them are like super famous that have given me their cell phone numbers. And I say, you can text me anytime, kind of like what Dr. McDougal was doing when he was the only one that knew.
[58:18] There's a part of me that just feels very, and again, I haven't addressed this. This is going to be the first time saying it out loud, but I thought, I feel guilty for having cancer. I feel like I've let people down because it's like, you know, like, because my whole life has been about not my whole life, but at least the last 47 years has been about advocating for the benefits, the health benefits of a plant-based diet, which I think are many, you know, we you see all the time in your daily life, how people have reversed heart disease and diabetes and autoimmune disease. And yet for, I mean, I think part of the reason I didn't come out sooner is because I actually felt embarrassed, you know. And so one of the things that Dr. Simran Malhotra told me, and she's a cancer previvor, she's a plant-based doctor, she said, you have to look at the plant-based diet as a seatbelt. And your exercise habits as a seatbelt. He goes, we are for seatbelts. We should wear seatbelts. And seatbelts have saved a lot of lives. but even with a seatbelt, you can still get into a pretty bad car accident. And so that really helped me a lot for just feeling guilty. Like I let the vegan community now because-
[59:26] I got sick. Well, that's a great analogy. Let me ask you this, because I'm sure you've taken a deep dive into lung cancer. Are there any misconceptions about lung cancer that you can talk about? I haven't taken as deep of a dive as I probably should have, because I sometimes get depressed when I see these things. But then, well, first of all, it's on the rise. We don't know why, but it's on the rise, especially on the rise with women, and especially on the rise with people who don't smoke, you know, like Andy Kaufman, for example, I have one, two, three vegan friends that are now in their 80s and 90s. None of them had smoked, and they all had lung cancer.
[1:00:05] That's weird. And I don't, you know, so I, you know, I think we live in a toxic world in general, and we do our best to live in a clean environment and eat as healthily as possible. But the world itself is toxic and you know you can here's the other thing I could sit here all day and ask myself why but it's not going to help me going forward you know I I need to get this gentleman on my show he was on but not for the reason that I would have him on his name is Pete and Pete is an old dear friend of mine who's a quadriplegic and sometimes when I'm I don't I don't know if I should say this I don't know if he's going to be watching but sometimes when I really feel down and hopeless I think about how hard his life is a quadriplegic right he's in his 50s now and you know the I mean right now I still have complete function I can do everything I can I can take care of myself and he needs you know aids just to do that you know just just to get out of bed and just to go to the bathroom and just to get dressed and he's accomplished so much in his life he's written screenplays he's he's an accomplished well-known mouth painter for example but one of the things he said.
[1:01:09] When, as my friend, I know this, is that this happened to him very young, I want to say 20. But, you know, and he said that after he had the accident, there were he was in a hospital for a long time, a rehab. And he said some of the people that were quadriplegics would take their wheelchairs out in the street and get run over on purpose, because they couldn't live like that. He said that he vowed after the accident to never ask himself, never to look back, you know, could have, should have, what, what could I, you know, why did this happen? And that's kind of what I'm doing because everybody wants to know, did she smoke? Yes, I smoked very briefly my junior year of college. But this kind of cancer they're saying isn't caused by smoking. They put smoking history insignificant.
[1:01:51] But it almost, like Dr. Dr. Goldhamer says, it doesn't even matter at this point because I can't go back unless you have a time machine rip, which would be awesome. Because there's so many things I can fix and so many people I can apologize to, like my mother, for example. I can't, I can't go back anyway. So what is the point of beating myself up or obsessing about why did this happen to me? You know, I mean, you know, I know a lot of the people in the plant-based world don't believe in God and, you know, but I do talk to God as I know him or her. And, you know, and, and so I remember like one of the first things I, and I said this in my head, I was like, why me? And like, I swear to God, I heard a voice that said, why not you? You know, I mean, so, So, you know, and again, I as much as I don't want this, I think it would be much harder for me to watch my loved ones go through it like Charles and Bailey. So he's the one I feel really bad about because he has to watch that. And that's why humor, you know, I don't I get sad, of course, and I cry.
[1:02:48] Or as Dr. Dr. Goldhamer says, I desalinate. But I tell you, after after going public, I cry a lot less and the tears are a lot shorter because having the support that I have now and just knowing that people care. and that those that pray are praying. And, you know, again, you know, a journey, a journey, a burden shared is a burden in half. And now I don't feel like I have to go through it alone. And now I want to reach out to the people that do feel like they are going through it alone or that don't have the information or they can't call Dr. Dr. Goldhamer on the phone, you know? So again, it's really not about, you know, I'm not here to diagnose or treat or tell people what to do, but I would mention that whatever you're going to do.
[1:03:30] Live your best life regardless of what you're doing, because look, take a look at that and the healing factors. If you're familiar with the work of Dr. Kelly Turner from radical recovery and radical hope, she is a PhD that wrote these books about she studied people with cancer and how they had some healing factors in common, 10 of them. And one of them was regular exercise, which I do changing their diet for a healthier diet, specifically cutting out processed food. And those are things that, that do give people hope. And the one that I was missing was, of course, you know, the mental, emotional, spiritual for, you know, the one that had to do with, you know, the non-physic, like, it's very easy to eat kale and exercise, at least for me, but to, you know, express my feelings and that kind of stuff is hard. So I feel like that if I, if there is a reason that contributed or I got cancer, it had to do with that. And so that's where I'm putting my healing right now. Well, it's interesting because, you know, I did a little search, little research and, And, you know, just discovered that so many of it is idiopathic. I mean, they can't figure out what's caused, you know, this lung cancer. And to your point, 12.5% have never smoked, right?
[1:04:41] And so the number one cause, it seems, of lung cancer for non-smokers is radon exposure, which is these radioactive, it's radioactive gas that accumulates, you know, in businesses or homes. And there's an actual test that you can take to see if you have it in your home. Secondhand smoke.
[1:05:02] I can't tell you how many of my friends growing up in the 60s, 70s, 80s had parents that smoked cigarettes. And then there's air pollution, obviously, occupational exposure.
[1:05:15] Let me ask you this. You obviously work with a lot of fine flours. Is that something that, I mean. I don't use a lot of flour in my recipes, though. That's the thing. I try to just use oats and I don't even grind them. But I did live till the age of 13 with three adult smokers in the house. So that is something. And, you know, when I think about all the apartments I lived in in L.A., I know some of them actually had mold, not mine. So, you know, again, I can't I can't go back and just like, excuse me, I used to live here 20 years ago. I've got this radon meter. Can I can I just check? So, you know, that is that. And then the last thing was genetic mutations, right? Just genetic factors. And so...
[1:06:00] Fascinating. You know, I mean, again, I almost wish we could have done this after the biopsy because there's still a part of me that's holding out hope that maybe it's not cancer, that it's some weird fungal infection or something. But I do remember on my honeymoon, I got sick in Mexico. We were on a cruise and I didn't drink the water, but we were at a restaurant and I ordered a club soda, not even thinking that there was ice in the glass. And that is how I got the water. I ended up in the hospital for a while with what they called a life-threatening lung infection from drinking water in Mexico. And I keep thinking, is that what set the stage? And are these tumors really, you know, scars? So the other thing is, you know, these tumors were found incidentally. I want people to know that, you know, I wasn't looking for, you know, a cancer diagnosis. I had a misdiagnosis of interstitial cystitis. And so I was having an abdominal CT scan when just some small four millimeter tumors were picked up on my liver and my lung back in 2022. They told me not to worry. And then but then eventually they told me to worry.
[1:07:05] Yeah. Yeah. How are you sleeping? I am so lucky that I for some reason, I think because when you have the level of anxiety that I've had in my life, I spend so much all day. Both, both, both physically spin on the bike and metaphorically spinning with, with the, you know, I'm like a little whirling, kind of like your mom that way, although I don't think she has anxiety, but we're both kind of a little bit of whirling dervishes, you know, just, you know, just like the energizer bunnies that once I hit that pillow, I, I, I, pretty much sleep through the night. But lately, I've been taking a supplement, not a drug. The doctors want me to just make sure I get good sleep. It's called magnesium glycinate. It's just a little like, and, and now I sleep through the night without having to wake up and go to the bathroom. So diet, sleep and exercise, Dr. Dr. Goldhamer says prioritize those. And I wish other people would prioritize those before they got sick. Because this is, you know, these things are so important. But, you know, I think it's just human nature that people often have to have this wake up call or, or, or hit rock bottom, you know, uh, before they'll make a change, you know, uh, but it really, it is, it was kind of a slap in the face that maybe I'm not living my life to the best of. Well, then, then that's the silver lining, right?
[1:08:18] So are you, what are your plans with a Chef AJ live? You're going to continue doing that. Yes. So, so what happened is, is, you know, the doctors at true North said you're working too much. Cause I would, I didn't get a day off for four years and three months. And this was my own doing because, you know, being a workaholic, you know, when you're somebody that's really like I was not in touch with my emotions or feelings, being a workaholic is a great thing because you make a lot of money and you don't really have to deal with your feelings. I think that's why some of us do it. But they said you can't keep working that much. So after four years and three months of going live every day on June 30th, I did my last daily show.
Future Plans and Hope
[1:08:51] So I've only been doing the show about once a week. However, I really want to up it a little bit more because I'm just so excited about doing this series called thriving in the face of cancer, having some of the plant-based doctors on. And again, it's not a series that we're going to tell you, this is what you do if you have cancer, because that's deeply personal. And I'm not even sure that... What one doctor says might be right in general or for you, but it's more about giving people hope, talking to the doctors that have seen some of their patients get better from cancer, what they did.
[1:09:21] Also talking to people that are survivors. That to me is like crucial. You need to know that no matter how, like, okay, one of the guys I'm going to have on the show, he's a wife of a doctor, stage four pancreatic cancer, still alive years later. You know, that's the one that people say it's a death sentence. My brother died three months after diagnosis from pancreatic cancer. So, you know, I think about Louise Hay says all incurable means is that nobody that we know so far has been cured. So don't let that, don't let your diagnosis be your destiny. That is my message. Your diagnosis is not your destiny. Yeah. Yeah.
[1:09:57] Well, I want you to know, AJ, how much i love you how much i know that the PLANTSTRONG uh audience loves you thank you for, sharing this very personal uh bit of information with us and i want you to know how much i'm rooting for you oh thank you i really appreciate it yeah.
[1:10:24] Hey can you hit me with a PLANTSTRONG fist bump on the way out boom, Chef AJ, thank you for sharing your time and your heart with us. We are with you and support you every step of the way. Your strength and vulnerability is truly awe-inspiring, and I know it will help others in their own personal journeys through illness.
Closing Thoughts and Support
[1:10:47] I would encourage you to follow Chef AJ's Instagram and YouTube channels, and I'll make sure to put those links in today's show notes to make it easy for you. Let's continue to shower her with our love, support, and humor because human connection is the best medicine. Thanks so much for listening and always, always keep it PLANTSTRONG. The PLANTSTRONG podcast team includes Carrie Barrett, Laurie Kortowich, and Ami Mackey. If you like what you hear, do us a favor and share the show with your friends and loved ones. You can always leave a five-star rating and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And while you're there, make sure to hit that follow button so that you never miss an episode. As always, this and every episode is dedicated to my parents, Dr. Caldwell B. Esselstyn, Jr. And Anne Crile Esselstyn. Thanks so much for listening.
