#243: Dr. Michelle Loy - Using Art and Science to Heal Chronic Pain
Learn more about Dr. Michelle Loy
Dr. Michelle Loy is a nationally recognized physician with board certifications in Integrative Medicine, Lifestyle Medicine, Medical Acupuncture, and Pediatrics.
In her practice, Dr. Loy focuses on the whole person and uses evidence-based therapies from both modern medicine and time-tested traditional modalities including plant-forward culinary nutrition, yoga, acupuncture, pet therapy, and mind-body medicine to prevent and manage chronic medical conditions from allergies, joint pain, headaches and IBS, up to PTSD, eating disorders, anxiety, and cancer.
Dr. Loy emphasizes nutrition, stress reduction, and community engagement for well-being, touching on narrative medicine and the future of therapies. She also highlights the significance of essential nutrients for mental health and promoting the transformative power of food as medicine. The conversation provides a comprehensive outlook on holistic health practices and personalized care.
A strong proponent of family centered care, Dr. Loy treats patients of all ages from childhood, adolescence, to adulthood. She seeks for her patients to enjoy both years in life (longevity) and life in years (vitality). Through her approachable, compassionate, and mindful listening, she is committed to helpher patients and families find answers, foster a growth mindset, embrace their passions, and live a vibrant meaningful life.
Episode Highlights
7:15 Dr. Loy’s Childhood and Medical Journey Beginnings
12:29 Her Morning Routine and Love for Plants
13:35 Treatment Modalities: Allergies and Migraines
23:41 Cupping Therapy for Myofascial Pain
27:16 Guided Imagery for Anxiety and PTSD
30:53 Root Causes of Anxiety in Society
34:40 Exploring the Concept of Narrative Medicine
35:27 Integrative Medicine and Healing through Narrative - Gratitude and Life Stories
56:01 The Power of Pet Therapy
1:01:26 Essential Vitamins and Minerals for Health
1:07:40 The Future of Lifestyle Medicine and Holistic Healing
Dr. Michelle Loy, MD, FAAP
About Dr. Michelle Loy, MD, FAAP
Dr. Michelle Loy, MD, FAAP, is a board-certified physician who received her magna cum laude degree in Psychology from Harvard College, her doctorate in medicine from Weill Cornell Medical College, her pediatrics and adolescent residency training from New York Presbyterian Hospital-Cornell, and her Integrative Medicine Fellowship training from Columbia University/Stamford Hospital. She completed certification in Medical Acupuncture from SUNY Downstate Medical Center and is licensed to practice acupuncture on patients of all ages.
She enjoys a long-standing interest in Integrative Medicine—particularly in the use of nutrition, movement, and mind-body lifestyle medicine in the prevention and management of chronic illnesses. In recent years, she has pursued further training in Human Nutrition/Obesity, Medical Hypnosis, Mind Body Stress Reduction, and Yoga Teacher Certification for medical conditions.
Dr. Loy has achieved recognition in integrative medicine at national academic conferences and other peer-reviewed training opportunities. She is a Fellow of the American Academy of Pediatrics, a member of the AAP Section of Integrative Medicine, and the Society of Integrative Oncology. Read more here.
Save the Date! LIVE Plant-Stock is BACK from August 16th-18th! Sign up for our newsletters at plantstrong.com to stay up to date on the official announcements.
Learn more about our 2024 PLANTSTRONG Retreats in Sedona, AZ
To stock up on the best-tasting, most convenient, 100% PLANTSTRONG foods, including our cornbread, teas, stews, pancakes cereals, granolas, pizza kits, broths and soups, check out all of our PLANTSTRONG products HERE. Use code: STRONG15 for 15% off your first order.
Give us a like on the PLANTSTRONG Facebook Page and check out what being PLANSTRONG is all about. We always keep it stocked full of new content and updates, tips for healthy living, delicious recipes, and you can even catch me LIVE on there!
We’ve also got an Instagram! Check us out and share your favorite PLANTSTRONG products and why you love it! Don’t forget to tag us using #goplantstrong 🌱💪
Full Transcript via AI Transcription Service
[0:00] I'm Rip Esselstyn, and you're listening to the PLANTSTRONG Podcast.
Today, we get to know Dr. Michelle Loy, a nationally recognized physician with board certifications in integrative medicine, lifestyle medicine, medical acupuncture, and pediatrics.
Wow. And as you can imagine, she treats her patients with a virtual buffet a fae of modalities, which includes a fabulous intersection of Western medicine along with practices like yoga, acupuncture, cupping, pet therapy, and of course, plant-forward culinary medicine.
We'll dig into her fascinating work right after this message from PLANTSTRONG.
[0:48] Friday night is pizza night in our house. All five of us make our own pizza using the super handy PLANTSTRONG pizza kits.
Our kitchen island is transformed into a smorgasbord of toppings, and each of us then plays Picasso with our respective pizzas, pizzas, Cole loves spinach, tofu, and then a swirl of barbecue sauce.
Hope is all about the onions and the olives, and Sophie loves tofu, spinach, onions, mushrooms.
She likes a lot of it. We play board games while we wait for them to cook, and then we pack up the leftovers for a quick, easy lunch on Saturday.
If you haven't tried our pizza kits, each comes with a freezer bag, so you can take and then bake what you need, and then you freeze the rest.
They also include five packets of perfectly proportioned pizza sauces to go with each one of the crusts, and they can literally go from the freezer to the oven to the table in less than five minutes.
Having a pizza kit on hand means that you never have to ask for, what's for dinner tonight? night.
And each crust is a wholesome whole grain base for whatever toppings your family wants to eat.
Our goal at PLANTSTRONG is to help you make meals that you feel good about serving to your family.
[2:14] Pick up a pizza kit and much, much more at plantstrong.com.
[2:21] When I first started researching my guest today, Dr.
Michelle Loy, I was blown away by the array of expertise that she has in treating everyone from pediatrics to geriatrics.
She received her undergraduate degree from Harvard, her doctorate in medicine from Weill Cornell Medical College, her pediatrics residency training from New York Presbyterian Hospital Cornell, and her adult and pediatric integrative medicine fellowship training from Columbia University Stanford Hospital.
[2:54] In her practice, Dr.
Loi focuses on the whole person and uses evidence-based therapies from both modern medicine and time-tested traditional modalities, including culinary nutrition, yoga, acupuncture, and mind-body medicine to prevent and manage chronic medical conditions.
And I'm talking about anything from allergies, joint pain, headaches, and IBS, up to PTSD, eating disorders, anxiety, and cancer.
I sincerely appreciate her open mind, flexibility, and attention that she gives to each and every patient that she serves.
And I know that you'll be as fascinated as I was to learn about some of the treatment modalities that she uses to help her patients heal.
Please welcome to the PLANTSTRONG Podcast, Dr. Michelle Loy.
[3:55] All right, Michelle Loy, welcome to the PLANTSTRONG Podcast. It's an absolute honor to to have you.
Where are you tuning in from today?
I am tuning in from the New York City area, and it's a true honor for me to be here with you today.
Wonderful. Now, are you at home? Are you at the hospital?
Where are you? I see a plant in the background. I'm at home today.
And you like plants, don't you? I love plants.
Yeah, yeah. Yes. What do you love most about plants?
I know that's a very, very general question, but if there was one thing about plants, because you know more than just about anybody I know about plants.
I'm just wondering, what is it you love most?
I love plants because they're alive. Yeah, they are.
I love the greenery. I'm especially passionate about plants related to food and food as medicine and spices and herbs, things like that.
But I love having plants in my home and in my room.
[5:11] I think that plants just bring life. Well, you know what? You're right. They're alive.
Do you think that plants have personalities? personalities i think they do i think they do i mean i'm not i'm not a gardener um i don't actually have a green thumb at all um so um uh i try to pick plants that are very easy to to grow grow.
[5:43] But yeah, I do think plants have personality and, you know, it's funny, I have different plants around the house and just some were given from a friend and I have little sticky notes saying like, you know, how often to water them and, you know, they're like people, they like, you know, they're they have personality yeah yeah well i and you know we just took on i should say we adopted about four or five different trees like what you have right behind you there from a good friend of ours who was moving out of town and he had all these marching orders like how to take care of it and this one needs to go inside this one's outside this one needs to be watered you know anyway Anyway, everyone had a certain protocol that needed to be followed. Yeah.
[6:43] Michelle, I'm fascinated with you and everything you're doing in medicine.
So I'd love to know a little bit about your background. So tell me, where did you grow up?
Did you grow up here in the United States with parents and brothers and sisters?
Yes. So I grew up in the United States. I'm of Asian descent.
My dad is a scientist and my mom was a dietitian.
But I grew up in the U.S., in the New York area.
Childhood and Medical Journey Beginnings
[7:15] And I was always interested in health, especially in high school, learning biology.
And eventually, after college, I decided I wanted to go into medicine.
And so, um, I went to medical school at Cornell and then I stayed for residency in pediatrics, uh, there.
And then after doing some, uh, uh, private part-time practice in pediatrics and, um, raising five kids. And, um, I decided, and as I observed, um, the state of pediatrics and the patients I was seeing and the chronic diseases and the, you know, different physical and mental cognitive conditions, um, I decided, um, that I wanted to go back and do a fellowship in integrative medicine.
And so that's what I did. And I got training for certification in that, in lifestyle medicine, medical acupuncture.
[8:22] And then I came back to Cornell a couple of years ago, three years ago now as faculty.
And so now I do a hundred percent integrative medicine.
I see adult and pediatric patients in integrative medicine one-on-one.
And I also run a number of group group medical visits in lifestyle medicine and, um, prenatal health and women's health and mental wellness, um, acupuncture, um, Qigong yoga, what else narrative medicine.
Um, and then I do, um, um, quite a bit of medical education with the medical students, the residents, the fellows, and also, um, And I do a number of, give grand rounds across the country.
And most recently at the American Academy of Pediatrics, I gave a talk on culinary medicine.
So I like to do a lot of education that way. Also in the community, I started a walk with a doc program.
Yeah. Yeah. I did a shop with a doc program, grocery tour in an Asian grocery store for my patients, all free.
Um, and I actually, I, I've, I, I am one of the lecturers in the, um, eCornell, a T.
Colin Campbell plant, um, plant-based course.
So, um, that's a little bit of what I do. Just a little bit.
[9:47] I, I, frankly, I don't even know where to start with, with all that, except to say, um, are you getting enough sleep every night with everything you have going on?
Yes. Yes, I prioritize my sleep and speaking about, you know, time in nature.
That's another one of my passions and talking about the health benefits of being out in nature.
But what I tell my patients is, of course, when we talk about sleep hygiene, you know, our routine before going to bed is very important.
But I tell patients, actually, it's in the morning. You decide in the morning, actually, when you will fall asleep because it's when you get – it's the time you get light on your retina early in the day, sunlight on your eyes that actually sets the circadian rhythm into play.
[10:40] So, yeah, I make sure I get sunlight early in the day, get some time outdoors. Yeah.
Almost every day, pretty much. I used to be a fair weather person, but now even if it's raining or snowing, as long as it's not icy, I try to get some time outdoors.
Give me an example of what that looks like. This morning, for example, what time did you wake up and then what did you do to get some sunshine or some outdoor light on your retina?
I'm early and I usually get out and go go for a little run, or I call it jog.
My kids say it's a jog. It's slow. It's slow. And I will listen to podcasts.
Actually, I listened to yours this morning, part of the summary podcast.
Sure. Or I'll listen to some music.
Yeah. And so it's really important to get light. Light.
So what time did you wake up this morning?
[11:48] Oh, it's usually around seven. Today was seven.
It's been a little bit later, actually, because winter season, I'm kind of just, I let myself, yeah, yeah.
But I get enough sleep. I usually get, I try to get between eight and nine hours of sleep every night.
Oh, wonderful. Wonderful. And that, I mean, that's pretty impressive, especially considering your schedule, all you have going on and the fact you have five children.
Now, are these five children in the house still or are they out of the house?
So the oldest is in college, so currently home on break. But so right now I have them all five and it's wonderful.
Morning Routine and Love for Plants
[12:29] Oh, wow. Well, good for you.
So, you know, one of the things that I thought might be interesting for our listeners today is because you have such a vast...
[12:43] Vast array of expertise and so many different medical modalities.
What I'd love to do is I, you know, I was going through and doing some research on you and I think it was one of the pages for the hospital that you work with.
You gave a kind of an example of about 15 different different, um, patients that you saw over the last couple of weeks, just to give a variety of the, you know, uh, how broad your toolbox is and, um, and how you kind of tailor each, uh, each treatment or each prescription to the, uh, the patient that you're seeing.
So do you mind if I just kind of go through and, and I'll, I'll kind of give you a lob ball and and then you can talk about it?
[13:35] Sure. Okay. Let's go for it. Let's do it.
So the first one is, it sounds like somebody came in to see you for allergies and migraines, and you suggested culinary medicine for them.
What do you mean exactly by culinary medicine and treating allergies and migraines.
Okay. So let me start off with defining what culinary medicine is.
So I like to think of it as blending the art of cooking and food with the science of.
[14:19] Nutrition or medicine. That's kind of how I think about it.
And so how I usually use culinary medicine in my practice.
So one of the major pillars, I start with lifestyle medicine pillars first.
So that's nutrition, this activity, mind-body stress reduction, sleep, social connection and minimizing toxic substances. But the first one is nutrition.
And so with nutrition, there's food. And with food, you have, of course, plant forward, emphasizing vegetables, fruits, whole grains, nuts, seeds, legumes.
Then I talk about herbs and spices.
Then I talk about teas, for example. And there's a whole host of plants there.
Then I may talk about, for example.
[15:08] Mushrooms, right? Fungi and all the benefits there.
Right now, we're in the winter season and immune health is huge.
That's what I'm talking to all my patients about.
So these are areas where I will, you know, use different.
Okay. And then we talk about traditional Chinese medicine herbs and Ayurvedic herbs and spices.
And these are actually very common in our pantry.
You know, things like ginger, turmeric, cinnamon. I mean, you name a spice, I can tell you a health benefit of it.
Um, and so specifically you asked for allergies.
So for the allergies, um, if it's, if it's a seasonal allergy, um, we know from integrated perspective that, um, foods that are rich in quercetin are very helpful for seasonal no allergies.
So things like onion, apples, chocolate.
If you eat a plant-rich diet, you're going to have a diet that's rich in quercetin.
So I will mention those types of foods. I always start with food as medicine first.
[16:19] Supplements are supplementary. If somebody has a a deficiency, then perhaps, but I start with food first.
If someone has a severe seasonal allergy, we might consider like a quercetin supplement or something, a supplement that has quercetin and stinging nettles in it, or another one, a bromelain.
It's the enzyme in pineapple.
So these are some ways. Yeah. Yeah. Let me give you an example.
So like myself, And I live in Austin, Texas, which is considered like the allergy capital of the United States.
And typically in late, late December, early January, we get hit the juniper trees, cedar fever. It's the cedar.
I think these spores basically explode. And I'm telling you, Michelle, I am a mess. The sneezing, the runny nose, the eyes.
[17:21] Headaches, really severe.
It almost feels like daggers going into the back of my eyeballs.
[17:29] I'm super interested in what I could do for that.
That acupuncture or acupressure is great for that.
Different massages, there are certain certain points that you can do that can help with the drainage.
And then the good old neti pot, that is really, really, really helpful.
Let me tell you though, my wife is like, rip the neti pot, the neti pot. And I do the neti pot.
I can do it like no problem. But when this hits, Michelle, I tried doing it and the pressure that is all of a sudden descends upon my nasal nasal passages is so profound that I have to stop.
I mean, it is, do you know what I'm talking about or not?
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, but all during the year I can nasal pot all day long and just go, you know, both sides, no problem.
As soon as this hits, it's like the pressure, it goes from like one to 99.
And I just, I can't. maybe.
Yeah. I would suggest maybe acupuncture, acupressure and massage in that area to kind of help with the drainage.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I know that this is not something that is singular to me.
Half the people that are on my master swim team, which is outside, are suffering from this.
And it is it is it is systemic in in in Austin. And I would imagine other places in the country.
Treatment Modalities: Allergies and Migraines
[18:56] OK. All right. Well, hey, let's. Good. All right. Great. So let's move on.
So the next thing that you talk about is IBS. yes.
And I think you just, you list, you list pain.
I don't know if it's just pain in general or pain. And then you, the, um, the answer I think you have here is acupuncture or acupressure.
Um, so for IBS, irritable bowel syndrome, or, um, I mean, that's probably one of the most common, um, complaints we, we get, um, people's digestion.
Yeah. And, and, uh, that's interesting to me as one of the most common, uh, but yet not surprising because, I mean, wouldn't you think most of that is because of the standard American diet?
[19:42] Yeah. That's a big part of it. That's a big part of it. But yeah, and you've heard about the FODMAP diet, I'm sure, and people go on that.
And it is a therapeutic diet that can be used.
I do use it for patients who have an issue, but I use it for a short period of time because actually a lot of the foods on that diet are really healthy.
They're fiber rich. And if our gut is actually imbalanced, then we would be able to handle all those types of foods.
So it's not meant to be a diet that you stay on forever.
It's only because for the period of time when you're trying to restore your gut health and get things back to balance.
[20:31] And when you do acupuncture to help with this, are there certain points that you're always consistently going to on people? Yeah.
So there's 400 some odd points, acupuncture points on the body and also on the ear.
And so, yeah. 400, how do you keep them all straight?
Yeah. It takes a lot of time to be trained.
But people often think, well, if you're having gut issues, are you like sticking needles on my belly?
And actually the meridians for the acupuncture meridians run through the whole body.
So actually one of the most powerful points for the gut is actually on the leg.
It's actually not. Yeah. Yeah. They call it to a suddenly it's, it's the, um, you know, three mile, um, point.
It's actually good for a lot of things. Very powerful point.
And is it on the right leg, the left leg, both legs? Both. Both.
Yeah. And where, whereabouts?
[21:33] Um, it's, it's below the knee of a few inches to the right, right there.
Hmm. Like on the shin area or more on the, yeah, kind of the shin area.
Yeah. It's great for, it's great for a lot of things. Yeah.
Okay. So for myofascial pain, you recommend cupping.
I can't tell you how many people in my life are getting cupping these days. Yeah.
It seems to be a thing. So, but, but I've never had it done.
Do you think I should get cupping done?
[22:09] So Michael Phelps made a very famous, Actually, I have patients of all ages who come for cupping.
The teens actually really like it a lot.
Cupping has been used for many, many years. It's part of Asian medicine now.
Traditionally, it's done with fire, like where they light a particular herb.
We don't do that in the hospital. We use suction cups.
But it's particularly helpful for myofascial pain, any kind of muscular pain, super helpful.
[22:42] I've had patients with, especially adolescents with any kind of either like ADHD or anxiety Anxiety or a lot of the, you know, mental behavioral type conditions respond very well.
And it's especially good for seasonal changes, you know, during the winter, immune health, super good for that.
But it feels very good and people love it.
Yeah. And whenever I see, because cupping leaves some pretty, it's like big hickey all over the, all over.
I, it's usually typically I'd say 90% of the time I see it, it's on the back, but can it take place all over the body?
It's usually on the back. It's usually on the back. So it's another way of moving
Cupping Therapy for Myofascial Pain
[23:36] what they call the chi, the energy around without using needles.
So it's just another method of, of, you know, moving the chi around.
What do you prefer? Do you prefer cupping or needles or both?
We'll use either or both depending on the patient's preference.
[23:55] Yeah. Yeah. Same with acupressure. Like for my pediatric patients or those who are needle-averse, then acupressure is another way of doing it.
And is acupressure just where you take your fingers and you press down on a certain spot? Yeah.
Actually on the same points that you would put the needles.
Gotcha. Gotcha. And I've even done it with tuning forks as well, for the vibration, especially for the kids. It's...
And you see...
In your practice, you see people from what, pediatrics to geriatrics, is that correct?
Yeah, I have a 90s, my oldest patient is in their 90s, yeah.
Wow, that's quite a breadth of patients you're seeing. Yeah, yeah.
And typically, how many patients do you see a day?
Is that how it works? I mean, or do you, is it, do you have hours Tuesday, Thursday, or how does that?
It depends if it's a one-on-one because we, you know, for new visits, I spend a full hour with each patient, which is wonderful.
[24:59] But sometimes I have group visits and there'll be more than one, you know, I'll be a group. An hour, that's a lot of time, Michelle.
Yes, it is. It is. I mean, as far as I'm aware, that's kind of unheard of that.
I mean, that's fantastic that you do that.
And I have patients fill out a very long intake form and if they're willing to do it, they know, my secretary tells them, I will spend close to an hour to review it beforehand.
So when When I actually see them that hour, we're really honing in on, you know, their plan and, you know, how to help them in a very personalized way.
Yeah. And is this something that your hospital approves of?
Yeah. Actually, I'm working. This is part of the hospital. This is something that our hospital provides.
And most of our referrals are from other specialists within the hospital or primary care physicians.
Also word of mouth. Yeah. Yeah, this is, and it's covered by insurance.
And remind everybody where you work.
I work at Well Cornell Medicine, an integrative health and well-being center in New York City.
[26:09] And I personally am licensed in three states, New York, New Jersey, and Connecticut.
So anybody in those states we can see, I can see in person or through telemedicine.
Yeah. Can you believe what telemedicine has done in the last five, six years? Yeah. It's amazing.
Yeah. And do you feel, I mean, there's probably nothing like having the patient there in your office and seeing them live and being able to look into their eyes and literally see the color of their skin.
But I would imagine the next best thing is Zoom or something like that. Yeah.
And for some patients, they prefer that. It's just easier. They save time.
So it's been helpful, I think, to access and especially for our group visits for people to join from all over. all over.
You know, some of our patients are immunocompromised. They don't want to be coming to the hospital unless they really have to.
And so being able to join, you know, virtually, it allows them to participate.
Guided Imagery for Anxiety and PTSD
[27:17] So earlier you mentioned anxiety and PTSD, which I know has kind of shot through the moon, especially after COVID.
[27:29] I was just talking to a neighbor who was telling me about one of her children that has a hard time going to school because he is stricken with so much anxiety.
And you talk about doing guided imagery to help with that.
And I'm wondering, what does that look like? Can you give me an example of what a guided imagery would look like?
So guided imagery, sometimes I'll do it on its own, especially with the children.
And And sometimes I've done it in conjunction with acupuncture.
And it's just leading the patient.
Sometimes it's a script where, you know, you kind of lead them on this imaginative kind of, tour, where it emphasizes different senses, what they see, what they hear, what they smell, and puts them in a kind of a calmer state.
Something related, which is called medical hypnosis, is what I consider guided imagery, but in a much more personalized setting.
And that has been really helpful for especially some of my pediatric patients with anxiety or OCD or or PTSD, certain kinds of fears, especially because children are very good with imagination.
[28:52] And, you know, actually, I'll often say, we all find ourselves in hypnotic states.
Like, when was the last time you were doing something, you were playing, you were reading a book?
I don't count social media, but you're engrossed in something and your mom called you in for dinner and you didn't even hear her because you were so into what you're doing.
Or for other people might be gardening or whatever that that is a hypnotic state and we kind of use that where you're in that um you know um state of mind where you can where we can make um positive changes relate to health do you do you have any thoughts on.
[29:35] Why do you think there's so much anxiety right now in our society?
What do you think is the basis for it?
Yeah. Actually, before I go to that, I just want to say, as far as the guided imagery, you know, athletes, which they use guided imagery all the time.
They visualize before a swim how they are.
So that's something that we know has been used for many, many years.
And also with stroke, our stroke patients who are learning with rehab, many times, you know, the therapist will say, I know you can't right now, you're not able to pick up that cup, but I just want you to imagine picking up the cup.
And then you cause the, you know, neuronal pathways to sort of reset and eventually they're able to pick up the cup and drink it. Yeah.
I can't tell you how much guided imagery I do without really knowing that it's guided imagery, but I'm just basically imagining myself.
All right. How do I want to feel in the water? What am I doing with my breathing?
What am I doing with my left arm, my right arm? Am I going through all the way through my hips?
Root Causes of Anxiety in Society
[30:50] Yeah, all that. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. So that's your question on why there's so much anxiety.
[30:58] I'm just wondering if you have any thoughts since you, especially if you're seeing it and, and maybe, maybe not to be so general, cause that's kind of maybe unfair, but maybe like in children.
[31:10] What's the stem of that? Do you have any thoughts?
[31:22] It's just multifactorial. People are so busy, their families, the social connection.
I think social connection is a big one. Actually, that's probably one of the biggest ones.
And that's It's actually why I do a lot of narrative medicine as in my practice as well as one of the tools, because, you know, especially with social media, well, you know, with just technology, I mean, technology has been wonderful in many, many ways.
[31:53] But because especially kids are spending so much time on devices and instead of, You know, people used to play all the time together or, you know, interact.
And now people are in the same house and they're texting each other or something, you know, like, or it's just the connection.
I think the fabric there has kind of broken down somewhat.
And so I think that's part of it. Um, and, and it's, we, we know that with, with, you know, um, people who are, especially kids who are not so much on social media, they, they tend to have less anxiety.
[32:36] Yeah, no, I think, I think you hit the nail on the head. The fabric has, it's broke, it's, it's broken down.
And I think what is going on with social media, the amount of screen times that kids have, have uh then the fact that they're not socializing out in nature i know you're a huge fan of nature nature playing out outdoors i read i read a study recently michelle i think it was done by kaiser permanente and it showed that your average adolescent is spending and i think this is actually underestimated is seven and a half hours on a screen and seven minutes playing playing or I should say seven minutes moving.
Yep. Yep. Exactly. Exactly. And it starts from very young.
So there's a play and grow study I mentioned in my, my, my talk with the AAP.
And it was, they were looking at these are like preschool kids and it was actually interesting study. They they.
[33:40] They had them spend time outdoors and then they measured, it was pretty scientific, like they were measuring their fecal serotonin levels, the different microbiome bacteria in their gut.
And they basically spending time outdoors improves the, you know, the types of bacteria in their gut and increase their serotonin levels.
And then the study actually said that they were happier and a lot less angry or something like that.
I mean, basically, you know, it starts when they're young and talk about nature and the microbiome and, you know, even touching soil like in gardening.
That is, you know, that can affect your microbiome, you know.
I mean, obviously, you should wash your hands, but I mean, in a good way and spending time out in nature. And like you said, people are just, yeah, they're just spending time indoors all the time, not, not.
Exploring the Concept of Narrative Medicine
[34:40] Yeah. Yeah. You mentioned narrative medicine. What exactly is narrative medicine?
[34:48] Narrative medicine, it's actually, I credit Rita Sharon from Columbia with the term.
But I think of it somewhat like how we use, you know, either literature or music or art or broadly the medical humanities in healing, in achieving health.
And so specifically, there are many ways to apply narrative medicine.
So for our patients, we have a group visit where we actually –.
Integrative Medicine and Healing through Narrative
[35:27] Provide like a poem or a prompt or some music, and we spend some time to talk about different topics, they'll write and then share.
And in this kind of interaction of sharing and generous listening, we often can, you know, a lot of these patients may be dealing with some kind of chronic disease or pain or cancer or different types of grief or anxiety, depression, and using the medical humanities, we're able to help with the healing process.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, go ahead. Go ahead. Oh, no, I was just going to say that, you know, for example, we have a big cancer population.
Going through through cancer treatment is very very difficult but generally with time the body heals quite quickly or you know we're able to you know you know heal to some extent but the the emotional aspects of going through the treatment can often be a lot more lingering even to some extent a little bit like post-traumatic a little bit and so using narrative medicine we can often um help with healing not only the physical body but also emotional yeah.
[36:54] Yeah. Well, I read, I read, you wrote a paper recently and you talked about narrative medicine as a anecdote to stress and burnout in, in actual like clinicians. Yes. Right.
And you talk about how prevalent that is because they're just, they're, you know, they're taking care of everybody.
And sometimes maybe it's like the shoemaker that, right.
Takes care of everybody's shoes, except for his and his children's. Yes.
But you have an exercise. It's called the three minute makeover, mental makeover, which, and I was, I was looking at them, these exercises that you propose.
And I was like, Oh, I can't wait to do this with my family.
Yeah. Yeah. So that, that three minutes, three MM, that was, um, developed by, by a colleague, a pediatric cardiologist in the Midwest.
So I don't take credit for that, but, but, um, I did write about in the paper and yes, it's a wonderful, um, and you could even do these.
Um, I think they even have games like cards.
I remember a while back with the kids who would pull out a card and.
[38:06] And, you know, I don't remember the name of the game now. It was a number of years ago.
But, you know, what do you think about this? And then, you know, or, you know.
So I think it's a good exercise to do definitely with your family. Yeah.
And I just, so the three that you talked about in the paper were, the first one was write three things that you're grateful for.
You know, it's always wonderful when you can express gratitude um and and and thanks for things we're learning how beneficial that is uh the next one and this really kind of i was like oh this would be exciting write the story of your life in six words, like, like, come on, really? That'll, that'd be fun to try that one.
And then the last one was write three wishes that you have.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, I really, I like that. So that's all part of narrative medicine.
[39:05] Before I go on, I just want to say, I think it's so wonderful, Michelle, that you have such an open mind, right?
An elasticized mind to seek out and try and understand the benefits of all these different modalities.
And is that really kind of the crux of what integrative medicine is about?
It's not hung up on one or two things, but looking at everything kind of, yes?
Yeah. Thanks for bringing that up because there's a lot of confusion what what integrative medicine is like you know is it complementary medicine alternative medicine no it's not so integrative medicine really in my mind um is uses the best of cutting edge modern medicine and there's some things that you know modern medicine is just is wonderful at um and also uses time-tested um other tools in the toolbox like you know traditional medicine But it's evidence-based and it's coordinated.
So it's not taking one... Sometimes patients will come and they think integrated medicine means natural and holistic. And so they think like...
[40:21] Okay, I mean, I've had this where they might think, well, you know, I have cancer, but I'm not going to, I'm not going to do the chemotherapy.
I'm not going to do this or that. I'm just going to like eat plants.
That's not, you know, that's not what integrative medicine is.
We use the best of both worlds, right?
I mean, sometimes people will make decisions and it's a personalized decision what they will choose, but you know, you know, the reason why we're so well-respected and And the reason why we get so many referrals from the oncologists at our institution, and we're lucky to have integrative medicine, right?
Actually, if you look at the NCI, the National Cancer Institute, the comprehensive cancer designated centers, they really value integrative medicine because we can use tools in the toolbox to allow patients who are receiving cutting edge, the best therapy, but they may have some side effects or symptoms.
These tools in the toolbox from Integrated Medicine can allow these patients to adhere to the treatment that their physician is recommending for them.
Yeah. So ultimately for, you know, outcomes, it's much better survival.
[41:31] Yeah. Yeah. When you look at how much you've learned since you got in the field of medicine and how much you've devoted yourself to all these different modalities, do you see yourself ever slowing down and trying to learn the latest cutting edge thing that's coming out?
Or do you think like in 10 years, do you think that we have just scratched the surface in our knowledge and all the different, you know, healing methods that will be available to us?
Or do you think we're like 90% there?
You mean as far as the cutting edge modern medicine? No, I mean, like there's like I read Tony Robbins latest book, like Life Force.
And he talks about all these different things that are coming down the pike that are going to allow us to live to 140 and 130.
And, you know, I mean, it was crazy. And I'm just wondering if you are looking out that far, or do you feel like we're pretty good?
At this point, we're pretty good as far as what we've discovered and the different methodologies and modalities that are out there.
[42:51] I mean, I think in both realms, as far as modern medicine and, you know, cutting-edge therapies, there's always going to be more where we're just scratching the surface.
I mean, immunology is an exploding field. The microbiome is an exploding field.
We keep learning about that.
And in integrative medicine, I think you're at the intersection of that because, you know, we talk about the microbiome. We talk about food.
Fiber plants and how that affects the microbiome. Right.
But at the same time, you have these like immunotherapy, for example, which for certain types of cancer, like melanoma for, for those patients that respond, you can go from stage four to nothing like gone.
I mean, yeah. Yeah.
Right. So, and what I was going to say with that is what's really cool is there are are some studies, there are several studies too, I think at MD Anderson, where people who, those patients who are getting immunotherapy, who ate a plant, you know, fiber-rich diet had higher disease-free survival rates and a better response to the immunotherapy.
So there's the intersection between cutting-edge modern medicine and, you know, diet.
Well, let me ask you, you mentioned the immunotherapy.
How long has immunotherapy been around?
[44:18] Do you know? I don't know specifically, but I'd say it's really it's really exposed in the last like 10, 10, 20 years.
Actually, somebody at our institution is one of the main people who developed it.
So, yeah, it was really exciting. We both spoke at a breast cancer symposium for patients.
[44:40] And for me to actually speak at the same conference with him, who's like this guy, I was just like, wow, to hear him speak about it.
But I mean, that's an example where the science is absolutely amazing, right?
Well, and it's funny you bring that up because we have, my wife and I have a good friend who had stage four bladder cancer and wasn't supposed to live six months and did, I think, some immunotherapy up at MD Anderson and he's alive now, eight years later.
I mean, it's incredible. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
I think Carter is another example or, uh, yeah. Anyway.
Yeah. Right. So let's move from immunotherapy to pet therapy.
So you also do pet therapy, right? Which I love.
[45:33] Okay. Well, I don't know if I do pet therapy, but it's one of the tools in the toolbox.
It's one of the tools in the toolbox. So I can think of several patients where very complicated patients and I've seen all kinds of specialists.
And I went through all of their medical history and all of that and went through all of the lifestyle pillars.
But in the end, I'm, In several cases, recommended pet therapy or, you know, volunteering at an animal shelter, you know, equine therapy with horses is really helpful for children and teens with anxiety, depression, even ADHD or autism, really, really helpful for that.
And what do you think it is about the horses? horses?
[46:30] I don't know. I don't know what it is, but it's, it's, there's something about that.
Yeah. Well, there is something about, I know, petting the side of the neck of a horse that is so, you know, powerful and muscular and yet typically friendly.
And those eyes and, and the the heat that comes out of their, you know, their mouth and their nostrils.
There's something about horses that is fascinating.
Yeah. And I can think of another situation where the patient was very, very depressed.
They're doing different types of therapy.
[47:12] And I remember the patient saying to the, to the mother, you know, if I had like a pet or a pet there, you know, pet, I, it would give them a reason to live.
So it can be helpful for mental wellness. And then, of course, just for physical health, like I think you're probably familiar with that book, Walking with Petey or, you know, where, right, where you prescribe like, that they get a dog so that they can you know part of it is they need to walk the dog every day and the connection and all of that right yes yes we we we got a cat recently and when this cat like sits on your lap and purrs and you're petting it there's a there's a connection that happens right absolutely that's very um it's very important yeah let's talk about so we throw these retreats twice a year we throw these six-day retreats and typically for people that are, trying to regain regain their lost health typical age range is 40 to 75 80 and i'm amazed how many people they've never done yoga and we offer yoga and they do yoga and it's incredible what it does.
[48:35] To, I think, energize, to open up.
And I know that you, for pain, you recommend somatic yoga. I don't know what somatic means, but I know what yoga is.
Yeah. Yeah. So I use yoga a lot in my practice. It's one of the mind-body therapies that I recommend.
And I think of mind-body therapy is just like sports. You have to pick the one that you enjoy. So yoga is just one of the many, right?
But I do think that yoga, we have a whole group, visit for cancer patients so a yoga group visit for that and actually we brought in it to include any medical condition so a lot of chronic pain other conditions as well but yoga is really good physically it I mean the way it works it definitely strengthens the parasympathetic nervous system so the rest and digest rather than the fight or the flight and we're in this society We're in a constant sympathetic drive.
Always the cortisol level is so sky high. So yoga is very good with that.
Of course, it's good for flexibility and, um, For our patients with any kind of musculoskeletal pain or balance issues, anxiety, depression, sleep, all of that, it can be very helpful.
[49:54] So I definitely recommend that. We offer a particular type of yoga called somatic yoga, which is somewhat similar to if you are familiar with Feldenkrais.
It's like a, it's, it's a training, the, it's a mind body connection where you're, again, it's somewhat related to guided imagery where you're imagining the moves and where you're making a connection between the brain and the muscle.
But yeah, yoga is, is really, really, really, really helpful. helpful.
And a lot of times I'll tell patients, you may feel, you may not feel like you're doing anything, like it's very low level, you know, you know, and especially for the type A type patients, type A person like myself, sometimes I think, oh, I have 10 minutes.
I don't have time to like do yoga. I got to like, you know, jump on the treadmill for 10 minutes, work my heart.
But But actually, what we really need is that parasympathetic strengthening.
And I'll ask my patients, after you do the yoga, notice, do you sleep better that night?
Many of patients, they'll say, yeah, they sleep deeper.
[51:12] Things just get a lot better. It's subtle, but the changes are real.
Well, I find I sleep better, but I also find that my day is better after a yoga session. I find it puts me into a really nice centered position.
[51:28] I just feel very connected after it.
You know, I think it's the breathing, it's the movement, it's the holding the postures, all that. And they just all add up.
[51:39] What about, are you a fan of Ayurvedic teas? I see for GI distress.
Yeah, Ayurveda. So that's the traditional Southeast Indian traditional medicine practice.
So, yeah, for a lot of our patients have indigestion, gassiness, bloating, and one of my favorite recommendations is something we call CCFT.
It's three herbs, three spices, cumin, coriander, and fennel. That's it.
And you can just stick it into hot water. um you can sometimes i'll make my own um um like chai marcella you know it's like a chai tea which where i just like add whatever i want cinnamon cloves um turmeric ginger what else do i have in my spice cabinet um coriander maybe um cardamom you know can add a little bit of soy milk if you want, whatever, you know, and just drink it.
But these spices are very good for digestion.
And that's why when you go to like Indian restaurant, they have a bowl of fennel next to the candy, like at the checkout, right? Because they know it's good for digestion.
Yeah. Fennel is also very good for colic. Yeah. I'm a big fan of fennel for sure.
[53:00] It smells, it always has smelled like black licorice to me. It does.
It definitely does. Yeah. Yeah.
What about traditional Chinese medicine soups?
[53:13] Oh, there's so much. I think nearly every visit we talk about this, everyone's sick, has colds. they want to like know how to, you know, what to eat.
So a couple of things.
Let me start with star anise. Okay. Let me, let me first start with this.
I always say that grandmas are very smart.
It doesn't matter what culture you're from, whether it's like, they'll say, drink your matzo ball, chicken soup.
They'll say, drink your doll, drink your black bean soup.
Like what every, Every culture has their particular soup that's healing that grandmas say to drink.
And I'm convinced it's the vegetables, it's the garlic, the onion, the carrots, the celery, the spices that are in them that are good for immune health.
I'm not just convinced, the science behind it. We know garlic and onion, that family is very, very important for immune health.
Same with mushrooms, we'll talk about in a second. But I want to mention my spices.
So, I often tell patients, do you know that star anise, it's one of the spices in Chinese, called bajiao, it has like eight, it looks like a star. Star anise is...
[54:31] One of the main components in Tamiflu, which is a medication we use for flu, shortens the course by a day, is shikimic acid, which is from star anise.
And so here's an example of all these different spices you can put into your soups that are really good for the immune health.
Another one I talked to patients about is mushrooms. Mushrooms, we know, are very, very good for the immune health. Two in particular have been studied for cancer, yingzi and yingzi, which is turkey tail, coriolis, and reishi.
But actually, all mushrooms are very good for the immune system.
They should be cooked. You shouldn't eat them raw. They should be cooked.
And a great way is to put them into soups. if you ever go to like a shabu-shabu or a hot pot, those are great because you can get like a vegetable broth, a mushroom broth.
And then they have like, it's like a buffet where all these different vegetables that you get like mushrooms and all kinds of Asian greens and tofu and different things. And you can stick into your pot.
It sounds awesome.
Is that like a pho? Is that like a pho? It's a little bit different.
[55:45] It's kind of like that. And that's the hot broth. But then you get to cook your own.
I mean, some of these places have meat and other things like that or fish balls, whatever.
But you can ask for a vegetarian broth and then just put the vegetables in.
It's kind of a fun thing to do.
The Power of Pet Therapy
[56:01] But the other thing for Chinese-Asian soups that I recommend right now is adding some astralagus. So, astralagus is a plant root, another plant that people don't know about.
It's a root. It looks like a tongue depressor. It has a sweet taste to it.
And you could just stick it into any broth that you like, a vegetable broth, whatever you want, just stick it in there, cook with it. And it is very good for immune health.
[56:28] Yeah. Now tell me this, when you are doing your shop with a doc, and typically this is with With cancer patients, are these mushrooms and the spices some of the things you recommend that they put in their baskets?
Yeah, so we met at an Asian grocery store.
And we started with a social plant power in Metro New York. And we just started in the produce section.
We probably could have spent the whole hour there. But I just went through and introduced patients to different greens that they had never seen before.
I mean, if you go to the, it's not just Asian markets, other ethnic markets, you can get exposed to so many amazing.
Tell me some greens that maybe I don't know about that I should. Oh, I love pea shoots.
I just got a bunch of pea shoots. They are so good. I just got some, actually bought it twice this week from the Asian store.
That's in season. I mean, there are so many different ones.
[57:33] They have dandelion. Dandelion greens. They have dandelion greens.
They have a lot of them. I only know the names in Chinese, but all kinds of leafy greens, cruciferous vegetables, cabbage, all kinds of cabbage.
Do you, Michelle, have a favorite green leafy that you gravitate to more than any other? Sure.
[57:55] Oh, I like them all. I like kale. I like the pea shoots a lot.
[58:01] What about broccoli for the sulforaphane? I love broccoli. I love broccoli sprouts.
I love cauliflower. I love kohlrabi, bok choy.
Do you sprout at home? I do. I haven't done it in a while because it's the winter time, but I was just thinking today that I'm going to start again, but probably closer to the springtime.
I do. Because I told you i don't have a green thumb but i can sprout because anyone can sprout all you need is water and the seeds and sometimes it makes so much i have to like slow down because it's like well and i know and i know you don't have a green thumb but i know you're a huge fan of people gardening gardening and doing maybe indoor growing of things like sprouting sprouting exactly sprouting and fermenting those are two things that are really easy to do and yeah yeah um Um, let's move on to, this is something that when I'm cold in the wintertime, I love putting a lot of blankets on top of me in bed.
And you say there's something called weighted blankets. Like that's a sensory for sensory integration issues.
Can you, can you, can you speak to that? Yeah. Yeah.
Weighted blankets are really helpful for people with sensory issues, especially, um, patients Patients with autism, even ADHD.
[59:27] Actually patients of all ages, not just children, but yeah, they have weighted vests that children can wear.
It can help calm down their nervous system.
But a weighted blanket is wonderful. I recommend weighted blankets for a lot of patients, even if they have like restless leg syndrome where they're kind of like twitchy.
First thing I would say is check their ferritin level to make sure the ferritin level is at appropriate level and then also consider a weighted blanket.
Yeah. You just mentioned ferritin, which made my brain go to –.
[1:00:07] Is there any kind of deficiencies that you see more than any other in your practice with your patients?
Vitamin D is the biggest one. Anybody who lives like north of, I don't know, Georgia, it doesn't get enough vitamin D.
I really recommend that people get their vitamin D tested so they know what their level is and a large number of patients are low or deficient.
Yeah and then when they're low do you recommend that they supplement with vitamin d3 and typically, yeah so it depends on what the level is but it really you know yeah well let's say my level okay let's play this game if you don't mind so let's say that my level is 18 would you recommend am and i supplement and how much uh 18 is pretty low so um you probably uh, that might be a because there's actually an algorithm so that might you're getting close to where you might want to get a prescription for like a 50 000 iu once a week um but for general like most people if they're just slightly kind of low i mean if there are a thousand i use a day or two, that's safe.
But mainly I like to test to make sure I know what the level is, then I'll use the algorithm and see how much.
Essential Vitamins and Minerals for Health
[1:01:27] Is there any other vitamins or minerals that you recommend people supplement with?
B12, if they are completely plant-based, vegan, then a vitamin B12.
Those are the main ones. um and then what about what about what's your opinion about omega-3s the dha and epa.
[1:01:53] That's that's a question i get a lot it depends i may use it in certain um you know for example anxiety or adhd some of the um those kind of conditions i might use it um in those situations situations.
[1:02:08] But as far as like a supplement for, for general wellness or for everyone, it depends. It depends.
I have to, you know, it's personalized. I'm not one to just throw a bunch of supplements.
More is not necessarily better. Supplements are supplementary.
If there's a deficiency, yes, but just to take a whole bunch of supplements, you know, everything needs to be processed through your body and, you know, more is not necessarily better.
Yeah. Yeah. It's a nice philosophy. I mean, I think if, yeah, I think that, that, you know, I prefer people and get, get it through their diet, you know, through chia seeds, flax seeds, right.
Not seeds that, you know, throw omega-3 that way.
[1:02:52] But, you know. Yeah. Right on. Hey, Michelle, are your parents still alive?
Yes. And are they still in New York? They're in great health. Yeah. Yeah.
They must be so pleased with what you're doing with your life and your family and everything you have going on. Is that fair to say?
I think so. So I'm so blessed to have them nearby and, you know, my kids can, you know, spend time with them and yeah, yeah.
Yeah. Well, you said your, your mother, you said, I think it was a, was it a dietician? Yeah.
So, wow. I mean, you guys must be able to talk about this stuff till the cows come home.
[1:03:41] And your father, you said, was he a professor? Is that correct?
Yeah, he's a physics professor eventually.
Yeah, he's a dean of science at one of the universities. Yeah.
So the science part came from him, I think, and the love of food and nutrition came from my mom.
Yeah, what a great marriage of the two. Yeah.
So what did you have for breakfast today, Michelle?
Typically my – well, in a typical day, I'll just tell you kind of the stuff that I have.
Sure. Love to hear that. So I always have usually, especially in the wintertime, a bunch of roasted vegetables, like always a cruciferous vegetable.
A bunch of them, like probably four or five different.
I batch cook a lot. So a bunch of vegetables.
[1:04:22] Let's see. I always have either some kind of bean, like a bean soup or...
I don't know, like some tofu, something like that. And that's for breakfast.
No, no, I'm just giving it kind of all together, like what's in my day usually.
And then I'll always usually have some oatmeal.
Lately I've been cooking, making like stewed apples.
So it's like with cinnamon, all that kind of stuff. It's almost like a dessert with that.
Usually I'll have some air popped popcorn at some point.
[1:04:57] What else? Oh, I've been making a lentil bread. that's been great the lentil just lentil waters the water a little psyllium powder and um i'll put a no salt seasoning on there or like everything bagel seasoning on that a little apple cider vinegar it makes rolls that it reminds me of like the the hawaiian rolls that you know they look like it looks like that when you when you make so what do you what what kind kind of lentil do you use is it a red a yellow i use red i've used mung i use whatever i've used even use a beluga because i ran out of the red one you can do any use any of those it works wow yeah i'm fascinated with that yeah fruits and vegetables like yeah yeah so well and would you say that your whole whole household eats the way you do no no No, no, but they're very, they're very open to plant, you know, and I, yeah, yeah, you know, I, you have to, I use this quote, lighthouses don't go around like, and Lamont says, you know, go around like, you know.
[1:06:17] Trying to save all the boats. You just have to lead by example.
That's what I've learned.
I mean, when they're young, you can make it, you can be very more prescriptive and all that.
But as they get older, I think learning, you know, providing options and living by example, I think helps.
And I've seen like with the older kids, they kind of come around and they make that decision themselves, you know, and like, oh, you know, I mean, you know, if you've been to like these college cafeterias, it's like crazy.
It's like a, it's crazy. It's like a buffet with all kinds of, you know, pizza and chocolate fountains and all, like all this kind of stuff.
And then, you know, you spend a lot of, you know, you have to pay for whatever.
And then they come home, they're like, mom, I really miss your vegetables.
Those vegetables at school are too salty or too oily, whatever.
And it's like, okay, you know, but it's not by saying, um, you can't have this, or you have to eat this, that, that backfires.
No, you're right. It's better to be a lighthouse than a tugboat for sure. Exactly. Exactly.
Yeah. What about your husband? Is he on board?
Uh, he, he, he, he, uh, he's very, he's more and more open.
He's very, yeah, more and more open to plant, you know, to plant foods and stuff like that. Yeah.
Yeah. Wonderful. Wonderful. Wonderful.
Lifestyle Medicine and Holistic Healing
[1:07:40] Michelle, I have really enjoyed getting a, a peek inside, you know, what you do and how, how skilled you are with all these different, you know, practices that, that you You enact on a daily basis from lifestyle medicine to integrative medicine to medical acupuncture, pediatrics, food is medicine.
It's really impressive.
And I just want to say that...
[1:08:17] This has been a great hour. Thank you very much. Thank you so much for having me. It's such an honor to meet you and speak to you.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Converse together.
Yeah. And if people are interested in learning more about you, is there a website they can go to?
Or if they live in New York or New Jersey and they want to see you, is there a website they can go to?
Yeah, they can just Google me on Weill Cornell Medicine and put my name in.
And I think Carrie will put the link in the show notes as well. Got it. Got it. Yeah.
All right. Well, you have a fantastic day, Michelle. Thank you.
You too. Keep it playing strong. Hey, give me a little fist bump on the way out. There you go. All right. Thank you. All right. Thanks so much, Rip.
[1:09:06] Dr. Loy practices at New York's Weill Cornell Medicine Integrative Health and Wellbeing Center. and she is licensed to practice in the states of New York, New Jersey, and Connecticut.
I'll be sure to link to some of her resources in today's show notes.
Thanks so much for listening. And until next time, let's all do one of the practices that Michelle suggested today.
Write three things that you're grateful for, name three wishes, and try and write your life story in just six words. I'll start.
Eat strong food and stay PLANTSTRONG.
[1:09:49] Music.
[1:09:53] The PLANTSTRONG Podcast team includes Carrie Barrett, Laurie Kortowich, and Ami Mackey.
If you like what you hear, do us a favor and share the show with your friends and loved ones. You can always leave a five-star rating and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
And while you're there, make sure to hit that follow button so that you never miss an episode.
As always, this and every episode is dedicated to my parents, Dr.
Caldwell B. Esselstyn Jr. and Anne Crile Esselstyn.
