#250: Michelle Jacoby - Secrets to Successful Relationships from a Matchmaking Expert
.Michelle Jacoby is a leading matchmaker and relationship expert
Whether you are looking for a romantic partner or an authentic friendship, you’ll love this chat with relationship coach and matchmaking expert, Michelle Jacoby.
Today, she’s here to teach us how to go ALL IN on finding and navigating new relationships. And, don’t worry if you’ve been married for a long time. This also can apply to new friendships (and, trust me, you’ll get some good tips on how to rekindle a marriage or partnered relationship).
Michelle is a leader in the matchmaking industry and shares her advice and wisdom on “finding the one,” what not to do when you’re looking for a new partner, how to navigate your differences, how to know when you’ve found a great match, and how to make deep connections with others.
Yes, we even talk about dating people who are not plant-based. Should you only look for a plantstrong partner?
Michelle has been helping others since 2009 and we’re lucky enough to have her with us today to give her advice on finding healthy, happy, and sustainable relationships.
Episode Highlights
2:13 Meeting Michelle Jacoby at the Sedona PLANTSTRONG Retreat
4:39 Michelle Jacoby's Background and Journey into Matchmaking
8:44 The Importance of Psychology in Matchmaking
13:14 Keys to a Great Partner: Self-Esteem and Emotional Health
14:00 Advocating for Yourself in Relationships
17:48 Finding a Partner: Kindness and Shared Values
18:19 Dating Beyond Plant-Based Preferences
24:32 The Role of Online Dating in Modern Relationships
27:30 Common Mistakes in Online Dating and Communication
31:44 Mistakes to Avoid in Live Dating Experiences
34:37 Evaluating First Dates: Four Essential Questions
43:15 Opening Up and Being Vulnerable
51:25 The Importance of Being Authentic
59:31 Ensuring Privacy and Safety in Online Dating
1:02:19 Practicing Radical Acceptance
1:06:16 Pickleball - A Connector of People
1:10:33 Never Waste Time on the Wrong Person
About Michelle Jacoby
Download Michelle’s FREE book, Never Waste Time on the Wrong Man Again
Michelle Jacoby is a matchmaker, dating and relationship expert, and the founder and CEO of DC Matchmaking, a small boutique matchmaking and coaching company for commitment-minded singles in both the Washington, DC area and nationally. She is also the co-founder of The Matchmakers Alliance, an organization that brings together top matchmakers and dating coaches from all over the world. Michelle teaches body language for dating and runs Smart Dating Boot Camps™ for single women nationwide and internationally. She is also the author of the book, Never Waste Time on the Wrong Man Again.
Michelle was voted Best Matchmaker in the US at the 2017 iDate Awards. She was awarded finalist for Best Matchmaker and/or Best Dating Coach in the industry at the 2015 iDate Awards and 2016 US Dating Awards and the 2018 and 2020 iDate Awards. Michelle has appeared in The Washington Post, The Northwest and Georgetown Currents, The Washington Examiner, Bethesda Magazine, WUSA Channel 9, News Channel 8 - Let's Talk Live, WJLA Good Morning Washington and NBC Washington, Huffington Post, ABC, FOX, Newsy and NPR. Her articles have been featured in Self, Washington Life Magazine, Fairfax Woman Magazine, Southern Woman Magazine, The Minds Journal, YourTango.com, ThoughtCatalog.com, EHarmony Advice and Yahoo.
Episode Resources
Get a Free Copy of Michelle’s Book, Never Waste Time on the Wrong Man Again
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Full Transcription via AI Transcription Service
[0:00] I'm Rip Esselstyn, and you're listening to the PLANTSTRONG Podcast. Oh boy, you are in for a doozy today. Whether you're looking for a romantic partner or even a new friendship where you can truly be yourself, you'll want to tune into my conversation with relationship coach and matchmaking expert, Michelle Jacoby. Not only is Michelle one of the nation's leading dating experts, I actually like to refer to her as the matchmaking whisperer, but she's also a phenomenal PLANTSTRONG Pickleball player. She's here today to give us the do's and the don'ts of building new relationships. That's all coming up right after this message from PLANTSTRONG.
[0:51] Have you heard about the hottest news that's coming across the wires in the month of may, here it is we at PLANTSTRONG we are hosting our 13th annual Plant-Stock weekend in black mountain north carolina and you are invited to join us we're going to be sharing laughs learning and a a whole lot of plant-based meals August 16th to the 18th. Bring a friend and come mingle with folks from all across the country that are coming together with one goal, to eat more plants. We'll have inspiring talks from Dr. Dawn Mussallem, Dr. Gemma Newman, Dr. Will Bulsiewicz, and John Mackey, and many more, and entertaining food demos by Carleigh Bodrug, my sister Jane and Ann, and so much more. Come for the food, stay for the fun. We'll have tons of outdoor activities, including swimming, hiking, pickleball, cornhole, tennis, and a whole lot more. It's a great opportunity to build connection and community, and we hope that you'll join us. Visit liveplanstrong.com today for all the details.
[2:14] I first met Michelle Jacoby at our Sedona PLANTSTRONG retreat last October. And besides being whole food plant-based for well over a dozen years, she's also an avid pickleball player. And when she discovered that pickleball was one of our popular activities at all of our retreats, she was all in. Well, today on the PLANTSTRONG podcast, podcast she's here to teach us how to go all in on finding and navigating new relationships and I don't want you to worry if you've been married a long time not only does this apply to new friendships but it also is packed with all kinds of fantastic tips on how to rekindle a marriage or partnered relationships michelle is a leader in the matchmaking industry and shares her advice and wisdom on finding the one, what not to do when you're looking for a new partner, how to navigate your differences, how to know when you found a great match, and how to make deep connections with others. Yes, we even talk about dating people who are not plant-based. And a question that I had for her that the answer surprised me, should you only look for a plant-strong partner?
[3:41] I think you're going to be surprised. I enjoyed this conversation so much, and I know it's a little different from our usual episodes, but we're all looking for healthy relationships, if I'm not mistaken. We all want to be seen and respected while still thriving as an individual. Michelle has helped others since 2009, and we're We're lucky enough to have her with us today to give her advice on finding healthy, happy.
[4:11] Music. Michelle Jacoby, welcome to the PLANTSTRONGPodcast. I am so jazzed to have you on the show and talk about dating and what you do. You're like the matchmaking whisperer. And this is just a subject to me that so many people either are struggling with it, they're super excited about it. Anyway, I'm just so excited. So thank you for joining.
[4:11] And sustainable relationships.
[4:34] Thank you for having me. I'm really excited. I am pumped. I am excited to be here. Thank you. Yeah. So just so everybody knows our background, I met Michelle back in October of 2023.
[4:48] Because you were adventurous enough to come to one of our retreats, our PLANTSTRONG retreats, that was in Sedona, Arizona. And so I got to spend six days with you. And if there's one thing that we did together every day, it was we played pickleball. Yeah, let's go down that rabbit hole at some point. It was awesome. We definitely will. Yeah. So after the morning and then afternoon lectures, really from like 3 to 5.30, Michelle and I and typically six to eight other people, we would play pickleball. And it's such a great way to get to know somebody to me at a lot at numerous levels that i want to get into with you but but not at the top of uh of this of this show with you so what i want to talk to you about is so first tell me like how in the world did you get into being a matchmaker and if i'm not mistaken you've got all kinds of incredible awards like you're you're like the matchmaker's matchmaker. You're like, you are it. That's so sweet. Thank you so much. This is a common question because everyone's always so curious, like, how'd you end up being a matchmaker? And it's kind of a funny story.
[6:05] I was single and dating. I got divorced at 35 and found myself single and dating. And I was on the apps and I was doing what you do. And I was having a pretty good time, but my parents were concerned and they were like, we want you to meet a nice man. And they said, why don't you hire a matchmaker? And I had never thought about, a modern day matchmaker. I mean, I saw Fiddler on the Roof, but it never occurred to me. So I'm in the Washington DC area. And so I was like, okay, I will research matchmakers. And that was back in 2008.
[6:41] And at that time, everyone I spoke to who had worked with a matchmaking company and had like a negative experience. And I was in a mode where I was thinking about changing careers. And I just had this like moment where I thought, okay, I'm not going to hire a matchmaker. There's no one here for me to hire, but yeah, maybe I should be a matchmaker because my best friend was engaged to someone I introduced her to. And I had been like, I'm a compulsive connector. I had been matching people, you know, just for the fun of it. And I researched, I read an article on USA Today about matchmaking as a career. And I was like, I'm doing this. And I never looked back. I mean, I had a website up. I had my first client within like two weeks. That first client, her third introduction was the the person she ended up with. And I'm like, wow, this is my thing. And it's been 15 years and I absolutely love it. I, I can, I can see why, I mean, how, how gratifying it must be to put people together for a healthy, lasting relationship. And I thoroughly went through through your websites, DC Matchmaking and michellejacobi.com. And the number of testimonials that are there about how incredible you are and how happy they are. And oh my God, Michelle put us together and she was, she came to the wedding. I mean, it's, it's overwhelming.
[8:09] So there's not a doubt in my mind that you are the best at what you do. What, tell me a little bit more about your background because I want to know, like, did you not even knowing it, were you building up the tools that allowed you to basically be this incredible matchmaker?
[8:27] That's a really good question. You know, also in 2011, I founded an organization called the Matchmakers Alliance. And there was at that time, no industry organization for matchmakers where we could get together and be collaborative.
[8:39] And so with another couple of matchmakers, we put together this organization. And the reason I'm telling you this story is because we were at a conference, we have yearly conferences, and we had about 70 matchmakers in the room. And I said, by a show of hands, how many people in the room have a degree in psychology? And like 50% of the hands went up, myself included. And, you know.
[9:02] I've just been fascinated by humans for as long as I can remember. And dating, you know, is interesting and not everyone's good at it. And not everyone feels comfortable being vulnerable and putting themselves out there. And so, I don't know, I find it fascinating. I also did go to, there's a place called the Global Love Institute in New York for anyone watching who wants to become a matchmaker. It's like a school for matchmakers. I got certified there.
[9:28] And then I have also veered into coaching, which is something I'm really passionate about. But yeah, I mean, there was really no... I know matchmakers from every background, literally people who were lawyers and decided, I want to be a matchmaker, people who are therapists. Sometimes I feel like a therapist, if I'm being honest, but I'm not one. I bet. So did you learn much when you went to the Global Love, whatever it was, conference? Global Love Institute. It was called the Matchmaking Institute back then in 2009. And actually, I just went to their conference with about 120 matchmakers in New York last week. Yeah, I did learn. But more importantly, I made incredible connections because one of the things that makes a matchmaker good is being able to find the right match. And so sometimes we collaborate with each other. You know, I just made a match with a matchmaker in California and my male client ended up meeting her female client, and now they're living together in Los Angeles. It's really exciting. So having a whole network of hundreds of matchmakers to utilize is really wonderful. So that's the biggest thing I got out of the Global Love Institute and then the organization that I co-founded that we founded.
[10:44] Would you say your expertise is finding men for women and women for men? Or do you also do, do you do men and men and women and women or how does that work? So, so my business has always been matching straight singles. If someone reaches out to me, I know some great singles who work with the LGTBQ community and I will refer them, but I don't have a database for that. But, you know, I work with, I've had clients from 24 to let me get 80 something, both men and women. I work as a matchmaker and also a dating coach. So just try to serve anybody who is ready for love. Well, so that's interesting. You said you've, so you've, you've worked with anybody that's as young as 24, as old as 86. Did you say, I don't remember how old, honestly, early 80s. And I'm wondering, have you found that, the older that we get, the more stuck in the ways we are and the harder it is to pair somebody with somebody else? Or is that not the case? Is it just their attitude?
[12:00] That's a tough one because I feel that as we get older, we start to really learn about ourselves and grow and understand what matters most. And we've had relationships and we've probably had some relationships that didn't work. And, you know, some people in there, I mean, I'm 58, some people in their 50s, 60s, 70s, you know, have done the work and they really have grown and understand what qualities they should be looking for that will impact their happiness. And then there are still people who are, you know, senior citizens who are looking for, I just call it the stupid stuff, the stuff that's just like, it's not going to make you happy in the end. It's just stupid stuff. Well, that's a great segue to, so what is it that you find makes people happy in the end? What's your answer to that question? You know, I've never heard anyone say my husband is a wonderful husband because he's six foot two. I've never heard that, you know, or my wife is an amazing wife because she's 14 years younger than me. Like that's just not what makes someone a great partner. What makes someone a great partner?
[13:14] I always tell my clients, find someone with high self-esteem, who's emotionally healthy, who has done the work, who feels worthy of love because someone who feels worthy of love knows how to give and receive love.
[13:28] I think it's important to know what your needs are and make sure they are met in a relationship. I remember being single in my early 40s and thinking to myself, you know, my needs have never been met in a relationship. And so I had to get really serious about figuring out what those needs were. And I think it's also really important to be with someone who treats you beautifully. And so when I work with my clients, we talk about what their boundaries are going to be and how to advocate for themselves and how to determine when they
[13:58] should stay in a relationship or when they should leave one. And one of the things I think is important for your listeners to hear is that the fastest way and the best way to find the right person is to get rid of the wrong person. So many people stay in relationships for months and years that don't serve them, and hoping that things will change. But one of the things that's important to do is advocate for yourself early on and don't ignore the red flags, deal with them because they're there and they represent, they represent, sometimes the behaviors represent issues that are unresolved and people need to do their work. And sometimes you shouldn't be dating that person. Yeah. I think we all know so many people that are either dating somebody, they've been in a marriage that obviously isn't working, but maybe it's just, it's more comfortable than doing the hard work, maybe having to get out of the relationship and then move on.
[14:53] There's just so much going on in people's lives. Relationships aren't easy. And I think people have this scarcity mindset, like I don't want to be alone. And if I leave this relationship, that's not really serving me. I'm just going to be alone and there's nobody, but there's amazing people out there. And I think that if you're in a relationship that doesn't serve you, it's time to move on. There's a lot of happiness after a divorce. I'm married to my second husband for 15 years now. He's a much better fit for me. And I think every relationship we're in teaches us so much about what we need and who we are. So the relationships where we felt we wasted our time, honestly, they were our teachers. They lead us towards the right person if we pay attention. Yeah, that's a really nice way of looking at it. But if you don't mind me asking you some personal questions, when did you know, or how old were you when you got married the first time? And when did you have some red flags and kind of signposts that maybe this relationship wasn't the one that you thought it was or could be? I got a big smile on my face because I thought you were going to ask me about my current husband. I was all excited. Not yet. So I got married very young. I got married at 23 years old.
[16:14] And, you know, it was a little bit of a different generation. I was really excited about being a mom. I had three kids in three years. And I think that what happened was, you know, when you get married that young, and by the way, I saw a statistic that if you get married before the age of 25, you have a 75% chance of becoming divorced. And in D.C., which is interesting where I am, right now the current first marriage age is like 31 1⁄2 or 32. too. And I don't think that's a bad thing. I think that, you know, getting to know yourself and be a little more mature before you choose your partner is a good idea. But my ex-husband and I just grew in different directions. We had different values, you know. So at the end of the day, we got divorced at 35. And I learned a lot from that about what I want and what I need and was able to, after many years of dating, find the most wonderful man I've ever met. I can't stop smiling. I was like, maybe he'll come and wave.
[17:19] I thought you were going to say, when did you know? I knew on my very first date with my husband, Rob, that he was the one. We were at a restaurant and my friend owned the restaurant. When he went to the restroom and she came over, I said, I think this is the guy. She was just laughing at me. She's like, how the heck do you know that? Because that was my first date restaurant where I would go with so many different dates. And I worked hard dating. You know, sometimes you've got to be consistent and put yourself out there. But when I met him, he's just fun and kind.
[17:48] And I think, you know, for your listeners, when you're looking for your partner, the most important thing to look for, aside from someone who has high self-esteem and is emotionally healthy, is somebody who's kind. Kind, somebody who really is kind and a good person, someone you can trust and somebody who has your back and also somebody fun who you love to spend time with. And then ultimately you have to share values and life goals. But like the minute I met him, I was just laughing. He's funny.
[18:19] I love that. And, Obviously, this is the PLANTSTRONG podcast. So I would say probably 99.9% of the listeners are plant-based, plant-slanting, vegan, all those things. And so what would you say for somebody that's listening, male or female, and they've been trying to date only somebody that's vegan, plant-based, and not had success? Yeah. Well, I'm whole food plant-based, trying not to do the oils. And I've been vegan or slightly cheating vegan for 15, 20 years. And so I was single and dating.
[19:09] As someone who was plant-based. And I have a cute story, which I can tell you about how my husband tried to dump me because I was plant-based and I wouldn't let him when we first met. But But to answer your question, you know, it's important to be open minded about like sometimes the universe surprises you with someone different than you were looking for. There were a lot of things on my list that my husband doesn't have. You can't I always like to joke, you can't order a person like a pizza, a vegan pizza. You know, like you can't say I'll have this, this, this and this and this because it doesn't work that way. Love doesn't work that way. And that's one of the things that, you know, is not so great about dating today with the apps and everything. If you limit yourself to such a small, you know, segment of the population, you're limited. And you're, you know, you're going to have a smaller dating pool and it might feel really frustrating. So, Rip, can I tell the story about my husband? And it'll give people an idea of...
[20:08] You have permission to tell as many stories as you can. I love telling stories. Because stories are just the absolute best. Thank you. I actually teach a lot through telling stories. So I had gone on two dates with my husband. And as I told you, I had an instant feeling. And maybe that's why I do what I do. But I had an instant feeling that this guy is for me. And after our second date, he invited me to his home to have a barbecue. He was having his whole neighborhood. I think it was his birthday and they're like all his neighbors and everybody. So I was like, awesome. I'd love to come. And he gave me his address. And then like a few days before the barbecue or a couple of days before the barbecue, I get a call from him and he says, you know, I'm canceling, I'm uninviting you. And I was like, excuse me, what?
[20:59] I just met this guy. You're uninviting me. And he's like, listen, I'm tired of women trying to change me. He's like, I like me. Meat. Meat's a hobby for me. I got a smoker. I'm this. He's like, I don't want you changing me. And I said, listen, buddy, I know your address. I'm coming. Make me a veggie burger. It's okay. But the irony is over time, we've been together for 15 years. Guess who's like 98% plant-based now? My husband, right? Because we impact each other and what we believe we share with each And the way that we live, you know, impacts your partner. So, so to answer your question, if I had only dated men who were plant-based, I wouldn't be married to my husband.
[21:43] Yeah. You know, so you need to find someone who respects your values, who doesn't silence you when you want to talk about how excited you are about food and that it heals and that, you know, somebody who is is just on board with what you are passionate about and what you believe. But they don't have to do the exact same thing, but they really have to respect you. Yeah. You know what's interesting about that? I love the way you're trying to tell people, you know, cast a wider net, give yourself that opportunity because that misright or Mr. Right, you know, may be outside the current rails that you've set up for yourselves. Right. Sure. But but the other thing. But but where I'm going to push back on that is. And I applaud you for being so open minded is.
[22:40] I'll give you an example so this last summer we spent a eight days in an airbnb with our family and then my wife's brother's family meat eaters.
[22:59] I thought I was going to go crazy at the end of the seven, seven days. I mean, the cutting boards had, had, had meat slime on them. There was cheese in the house, you know, it would, the smell permeated the refrigerator, the whole kitchen. I was like, oh my God, if we're going to do anything in the future with your brother's family, we've got to get separate, separate places. We're not going to get a big house that's got, you know, eight bedrooms because this isn't going to fly. And my wife was just as adamant as I was that we can't do this. So I listen, I don't disagree with you. I mean, I'm pretty pragmatic when it comes to finding love. And in my experience, like the number one thing people say to me when I've matched them or coach them and they're happily coupled, they'll come back and say, you know, I never would have met this person if I hadn't worked with you because they were outside of what I was looking for. Or coming back to this idea of sharing a home with someone who has all that food. I mean, you could date people who are vegetarian. There are a lot of people who are vegetarian, right? Or you could, like my husband and I, sometimes every once in a while on a rare occasion, he'll have meat. We have a refrigerator in the garage. He really respects the fact that I can't look at meat. I just can't. I can't have it inside the house.
[24:17] I don't know. No, I mean, each of us have to do what makes us feel most comfortable, but I do think it's important to realize that, you know, that we can impact other people's lifestyles with our beautiful choices.
[24:32] Yeah. Can you, what are your thoughts on online dating? Because I can remember when my wife's roommate, this is before we were married, found her husband to be 15 years ago.
[24:47] On, uh, one of these dating apps. I was like, that is the craziest thing in the world. Dating online. Oh my, you gotta be kidding me. I mean, I don't think it's really been around that long or.
[24:59] Vogue and kind of, you know, just common practice now it is, but back around for about 20 years, because I remember in like 2003 or four, I was dating online. Okay. Okay. And do you think, I mean, I guess it's, it just fulfills a need, but do you think that, what's your, what's your opinion of online dating? Do you think it's a, it's a healthy way to date? Is it kind of a sign of the times? So I, if I have my numbers, right, which I hope I do more than 50% of relationships now start online. Um, a lot of matchmakers will poo poo online dating sites, but I'm not one of them. I think they're a beautiful tool. I mean, where else can you like, I don't know, get in your PJs, you know, get a snack and pull out your laptop and, you know, go man shopping or what, you know, I always joke. I just, I just love the fact that we have access to all these people we would never meet otherwise. The problem is that there's this illusion of choice. And I think there's a lot of bad behavior and it stems from people's frustration and also not knowing how to use the sites. You know, the sites, the online dating sites are a business.
[26:19] And I sort of feel like if they really wanted to get you off the site, they would have someone like me create a class to teach you. This is the smart way to use the online dating apps, but no one does that. So therefore, you know, people are using them in a way that's not skillful or strategic and they're just getting super frustrated. But there are, just want to say one thing, there are wonderful people on these apps, normal, amazing people, like everyone I've ever worked with, almost everyone I've ever worked with who's been my matchmaking client. And these are very successful, lovely people. They've all dated on the apps. They probably hired me because they weren't successful because they needed help on the apps. So it's not like over there are the weird people who date online and over here are the quality people. It's all the same people. But I will say that like when you put yourself on Match.com or Bumble, it's like holding a sign at the mall that says anyone can talk to me. Right. So people are going to reach out to you. You don't want to talk to. Don't take it personally. Just appreciate their attention and just say, no, thank you. Yeah. Well, so it sounds like you coach people how to communicate.
[27:26] How to be effective online on these dating apps. What are some of the mistakes that you see people making that you coach them on? Oh, that's such a good question. I was horrified. I had a friend in my kitchen, a guy, he was on Tinder and he's just swiping, swiping, swiping, left, left, left, left, left, left. The problem is- Wait, wait, help me out here.
[27:48] I've heard that Tinder is a a place where you actually hook up? Is that- Tinder started out that way, but actually over time there, I mean, I know people who have found their spouse on Tinder. And Tinder, interestingly enough, is 80% of, or I think 85% of subscribers on Tinder are under the age of 30. So it's actually very young. All of the different apps have different demographics. But no, it's not just a hookup app. But my friend was just judging people so quickly. And I was like- Does left mean you're not interested? No, right means yes. Okay. Right. So left makes the person disappear. They just go poof and they're gone forever. The problem is, I mean, there's so many, there's so many ways people need to date differently, but I'll say two. One is, is not taking the time. They get, people get so overwhelmed by the quantity of available people that they don't take the time to consider each person. And then what happens is the biggest problem is assumptions. People make so many assumptions about people based on a profile. And I love sharing this because after I met my husband, he showed me his match.com profile and it was horrible. He looked like he was drunk in his pictures.
[29:02] Oh my God, it was so bad. I know, right? Otherwise maybe he would have been snapped up. But like his profile was all about don't contact me if you're this or that because he'd had a frustrating experience. It was terrible. Thank God I met him in real life at a restaurant. Otherwise, I would have just hit delete on his profile. So another thing that you need to remember, those of you who are dating online, is that sometimes wonderful people are bad at online dating.
[29:28] Sometimes they have terrible pictures. Like, I mean, I had a client once who was the greatest guy and he just took a scowling car selfie that was so close up. You can see the pores on his nose. And I'm like, who are you and why are you doing this? Like bathroom selfies, you know, gym selfies with the shirt off. Guys, stop. Just stop. You know, it's just it's dating is not intuitive. So people make a lot of people make the same types of mistakes. stakes. So keep in mind, be, be gentle hearted when you're looking at people's profiles and realize that sometimes somebody with a mediocre profile could be phenomenal. And also somebody with a phenomenal profile could be not for you. So give people a chance and try not to ask yourself when you're deciding, you know, if you want to meet someone, am I, am I making an assumption about that? People make assumptions and over-eliminate. It's frustrating. In one of the testimonials that I read, raving about you, they talked about how Michelle got in there. She basically changed my photo, changed kind of what I had written, and I found the woman of my life in two weeks. Every once in a while we're very effective like that that's awesome yeah but you know the quality.
[30:47] This is interesting I was at a I was at another matchmaking conference in california last year and one of the there was a man there who specializes in AIand he works creating the algorithms for some of the online dating sites and apps and this this is interesting Ifound this fascinating. Apparently, each person gets a rating. The popularity of your profile gets a certain number. And then you only have access to seeing people whose number is similar to your number. So this is for all of you out there who are not seeing the quality and caliber of people you'd like to see on the apps. It probably means that your profile in your pictures are not as good as they could be. So if you're, if you're, if you're saying everyone online is, it's like, that's probably an indication that you really need to redo your profile and take better pictures. And I have found that the quality of the pictures impacts the quality of the
[31:43] people who reach out to you. Hmm. Hmm. What? So that I want to move to dating now. Okay. Like, like live dating. What are some of the biggest mistakes you see with, with live dating with men and women? Yeah.
[32:00] Okay. No, I'm just, I have so many things going on in my brain. So people are going on so many first dates that they're kind of going through the motions and they're not really connecting. They just go on date after date, after date, after date, lots of first date, very few second dates. Can I stop you for a sec? I want to stop you for a sec. Yeah. They're going on date after date, date after date after date. And is it typically like to a, to a, out to, out to eat or to a movie or is it, is that one of the mistakes that they're making? They're just doing the same. I mean, maybe I think people get fatigued, but one of the things I don't love that people do is the coffee date. I know it's less expensive and it's can be convenient, but it's not very conducive to chemistry and romance to sit in a Starbucks, you know, with, with fluorescent lighting and just, you know, people on either side of you. I like, I like activity dates, but I'm kind of old fashioned and I don't mind a nice dinner date. Some people don't care for that. But I think one of the mistakes people make.
[33:05] Is they decide in five minutes, am I attracted to this person? Do I like this person? And even at the beginning of the date, okay, here, I wrote a book about this. This is what I teach. There are things to do at the beginning of a date that set up the whole date. Like you see someone, and in the very first, I do this in business meetings. I do this all the time. In the first minute, with the first 30 seconds, you have a big smile on your face. You don't shake hands. This is not a meeting. You give them a hug. You tell them you might say something like, I've really been excited to meet you. So you decide you like them before you know if you like them, because what that does is then the other person is at ease. They feel liked and they can show up, you know, in a different energy and it just feeds off each other. So there are certain things that you can do during a date. Like if you like something about someone, tell them. I have a philosophy that every person has what I call the gooey center. People are amazing. They're amazing. If you're not seeing that when you're dating, you're just, you don't know how to get to the gooey center.
[34:12] You know, people are beautiful. And I think what happens is a lot of people are on dates looking for what's wrong. And I think interestingly in women, women do this a lot. Maybe it's biological. psychological, like when we were mating, we have to look for danger, you know, to survive. I've put a lot of thought into why do women do this? But like, there could be 20 positive things, but there's one thing someone says that was negative and we just focus on it.
[34:38] So when people, I'm going to give your listeners four questions to ask themselves after our first date to decide if they want to go on a second date because people over eliminate, they should be going out more.
[34:49] I have clients who didn't want to go on second dates and I nudged them and they ended up getting married. So here are the three, the four questions really quickly. One was there after the date. Yeah. So this is after the date when you're thinking, do I want to see this person again? A lot of people expect to feel butterflies and fireworks. That's not realistic. First dates can be a lot of pressure. People can be nervous. this. And are these four questions part of the homework assignment you give to everybody you work with? And do you also ask them to send you the answers? This is not, well, this is something that I teach my clients because, you know, when you're going on dates, assessing whether or not you should continue getting to know someone is an important part of dating. And what I'm seeing people do is over eliminate and say no way too often to getting together again, because, you know, years and years ago, you'd meet people through your work or your neighborhood or your friend group. But now you're meeting someone and you have 90 minutes to impress them or be impressed.
[35:52] It's not organic. And so I like very black and white coaching and rules. It just helps me. And so I used this rule when I was dating. And so now I share it with my clients. But I'm just going to give you the questions really quickly. Let's do it. The first question is, was there at least some chemistry? And I'm not talking like a nine or a ten, but like a six. Like if this person kissed me, I wouldn't go like, you know, I wouldn't be yucked out.
[36:20] Was there just some chemistry? If the answer is yes, the next question is...
[36:27] From what I can tell, is this a good person? You know, just from what I can tell, having spent time with them, are they a good person, a kind person, someone with a good heart? And then the next question, if the answer to that is yes, the next question is, did I enjoy my time on the date? Did I have a nice time? It's a pretty simple question. If the answer to those three questions is yes, the last question is, was there an obvious deal breaker? Like, I'm moving to the other side of the country next Thursday. day. Or, oh, you want to have kids? I have no desire to have kids. Like a big deal breaker. And if you have a yes, yes, yes, no, I have no idea why you wouldn't go on another date. You know, you cannot figure out in one date if someone is your person, right? It takes time. And by the way, you're not leading anyone on if you're not sure. If your intention is just curiosity and spending a little more time together. Look, the whole point of a first date is just to have fun together. It's not to ask them a litany of questions to figure out, could this be my person? And the only goal of a first date is to have fun and to see if you want to continue the conversation again another day. Yeah. You've got such a great attitude around all this. It's easy to see why people are so drawn to you around this subject. Let me ask you this. Yes.
[37:50] So somebody comes to you and they want to hire your services because they just feel like they're not doing things right. And they're open to you changing maybe their look, the way they dress.
[38:06] Is that hard for you to say, listen, you got to get a haircut or why you got the bangs or what are you doing wearing the Birkenstocks? You got to be kidding me. Wear this. I mean, Do you go that detailed with people? Yeah, well, it's interesting. I am certified in body language. There's actually a body language institute in D.C. And one of the things that we studied was response to color. There's a reason I'm not wearing a black shirt today. People who wear color are perceived as kinder, warmer, happier, more open.
[38:38] And, you know, it doesn't hurt to wear a little color. So I encourage I encourage my female clients to wear color. And I think that men are very attracted to femininity. However, I don't want people to feel like they're not themselves. But what I think is that I would love for you to be a dating version of yourself when you're dating. So for men, you know, maybe your M.O. is to wear, you know, a wrinkled T-shirt and shorts. But on a date, maybe you have a wardrobe that's your go-to dating wardrobe with a nice button down and a pair of designer jeans and loafers like that.
[39:16] You have, I mean, first impressions, you have a minute, you know, for someone to like size you up. And especially men, I think men are very visual. And what I've heard from my clients is that within, I don't know if you'll agree with this, but in 40 seconds, it's really four minutes or something. You know whether or not you're attracted to someone, right? Right. And I just it cannot hurt to look your best and to show that you put some time and effort into getting ready. And and so I do talk to my clients about what they're what they're wearing after dates. When I'm working with a matchmaking client, we get feedback. And, you know, sometimes I have to deliver feedback. I had to I have I have a client right now has been with, you know, the woman of his life for the last six years. I had to tell him he had to get his teeth whitened. I had to tell him that he chewed with his mouth open and that you could. I heard this from two people. So I went and met him for lunch and I was like, oh, yeah, I can see what he's doing.
[40:14] But what I tell my clients is that everything I'm telling you, I'm going to say in the kindest way. And it's coming from a place of deeply caring about your success. And the beautiful thing about the matchmaking process is we get feedback so we can learn how we are being perceived on a date. You know if you're not working with a matchmaker someone doesn't want to see you again you're like I have no idea why I can guess and what I have found is people are usually wrong, yeah so anyways I have to I do help people look their best we have stylists we work with and we do photo shoots with the right body language and I do talk to people about things they could do differently so that they can be more successful you know we all have blind spots and And it doesn't, I want to say that, you know, I've worked with some of the most highly educated and successful people. And sometimes the skills that get you, you know, to the top of the corporate ladder, those skills don't translate to dating.
[41:13] Can you give me, yeah. Can you give me an example? I certainly can. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, I am a coach for women and, and, um, you know, strong, smart, successful women are very goal oriented. They're very purpose driven. They're thinking about their ultimate goal and they're going towards it. When you're dating, that doesn't necessarily work. You need to be in the moment having fun. If you're sitting on a date and you have a checklist and you're asking somebody, you know, all of these questions, you know, it doesn't, it's not fun. The person feels like it's a test or they're on an interview. Right. And then I've talked with clients who have been so excited to meet someone they like that they're they're overbearing in their availability, you know, and not being able to just sit in the moment and enjoy what's happening right now without worrying about where am I going and how am I getting there and pushing towards that? Because intimacy, you know, emotional intimacy and getting to know someone, if you rush it, it's not healthy. You have to put in the time to get to know someone in a healthy way. And I know people are excited when they meet someone they like, you know, but like, I'll give you an example. When my husband, when we met after two weeks, he said, I want to, you're my person, I'm done.
[42:34] I mean, I love that. And you know, I had a feeling, but I said to him, listen, listen, I don't know you well enough to call you my boyfriend yet. And I literally said these words. I said, why don't you court me?
[42:47] Ask me out on dates, take me out. We'll spend time together, you know, and when I feel ready, I'll let you know. And then we can, you know, be in a relationship. And so for two months, that man, you know, took me out to dinner, picked me up, brought me flowers, you know, he was amazing. And, uh, and after two months I was like, oh yeah, definitely want to be your girlfriend, but I see people rushing, you know, you know, or taking too long
[43:14] because they're afraid to open up. You know, one thing I do want to say is that the only way to fall in love is to, to open up your heart and be truly available. But that's scary if you've been in a relationship where you were hurt before. And that's one of the reasons why I work with my clients to come up with what I call a protective contract, which is a contract between you and yourself, listing all of the ways that you're going to insist on being treated, right? So if you have this protractive contract in place, like I will not date someone who, and you know how to advocate for yourself and hold those boundaries. Once you have the tools in place to get your needs met and to hold your boundaries, you can be open-hearted. You can be vulnerable knowing that if someone is not treating you right, or you're not getting your needs met, you're out of there. So I think a lot of people have walls up and so they don't really open up and then nothing really goes anywhere and things fizzle out. Sadly. I've had so many, so many questions.
[44:11] Let me start with this one. So you, you.
[44:18] You're primarily located in the D.C. area. And on the website, it says basically for successful, committed people, right? Well, for commitment-minded singles, like professional commitment-minded singles, yeah. Yes. And so my question is, how important is it for the men or the women that you're primarily working with that they're at a certain financial status? Oh, that's a good question.
[45:16] And at first I thought you were asking me about like who can hire a matchmaker and what is it, you know, but no, that's not what you're asking. So what you're asking, I think, is how much do finances play into who you should be with? Well, with the people you're working with, how important is that to them? That's interesting. So it's more, you know, I'm just going to put it out there. It's more important to my female clients. Um you know most of my male clients are not asking me that someone have a certain income level or that someone um be in a certain type of profession I think what men want is to date a woman who's financially independent capable and can take care of herself and doesn't have debt or financial chaos in any way. There are some women who come to me looking for men who are quite wealthy. I don't do that. If someone comes to me and they say, I'm looking for a very wealthy partner, I might refer them to another matchmaker. This is a love search and I'm looking for compatibility. Now, of course, you want to be with someone who loves what they do, is passionate, is successful, you know, DC where I am located, people are very passionate, entrepreneurial, professional, but at the end of the day.
[46:41] The way someone loves you matters a lot more than, you know, what kind of car you're driving. So I try to teach my clients what matters most. And I think a lot of people are very focused on the bright, shiny object, and they're missing the whole point of what it feels like to be loved right.
[47:01] You work with people on mastering the art of flirting. You say flirting is an important part of dating, right? Right. So can you give me an example? Like, let's say that I was a girl or a guy or whatever, whichever, whichever way. Like, Michelle, how do I flirt better? OK, so there's no big mystery here. It's not something, you know, where you have to dress inappropriately or bat your eyelashes. Flirting is about connecting and being open. So one of the things that I teach my clients to do is to smile more than they've ever smiled in their life.
[47:39] You know, literally when you smile, you're giving people the signal that you can talk to me. I'm friendly. I'm not going to bite your head off. A smile is an invitation and eye contact. Also, I from for years have been I talk up strangers all the time. I love your shirt. You know, did you pick that out yourself in the elevator? I make it a point to chat in the elevator. I know it's so awkward, but it's not awkward for me anymore because I've been doing it forever. ever. But I met my husband at a restaurant. The person I dated before him, I met at a bookstore, Barnes and Noble. The person before that, I met in the grocery store. So it's not that you just have to date online. There are beautiful, phenomenal single people everywhere. You're just busy looking at your phone or you have your earbuds on, right? And so chatting with people in the grocery store line, at Starbucks, smiling, being at a restaurant and just chatting with the person next to you. I believe that connecting in person is amazing and that we just don't do that anymore. I remember I drove by a bus stop in DC and there were like 12 people in this bus stop and every single person was looking down at a phone. And I thought, what a missed opportunity.
[48:54] People are cool. People are cool. They're fun. Like you said, try and get to that That gushy center. The gooey center, yeah. The gooey center. You mentioned the smile and the colorful shirt.
[49:12] What is some other effective body language that you use.
[49:18] That you recommend people use to, you know, for attraction? Yeah. Well, that's really interesting. Well, first of all, if you're on a date, and the man or the woman that you're on a date with feet and belly button are facing away from you, they want to go over there away from you. So like, you know, if you're, if you're at a bar and you're talking to someone and they're not facing you, they're probably not into you. Don't waste your time. Um, but the question is how, the question is, how do you know when someone's into to you? Is that it? No, no, no. Just, just more effective body language. Okay. More effective body language that, that, that elicits. Okay. Thank you. I forgot your question. So first of all, in your pictures, your body language should be open, open body language shows that you're open. So, you know, people are touching their arm, they're, they're covering up their neck dimple. Don't do that. You know, they have their arms crossed, open body language shows that you're you're confident and that you're open and available. So, and by the way, the arm pop, when you put your arm over a chair, this is really good for the guys, actually, the arm pop shows a lot of confidence. So, you know, if I'm in a meeting or something, I'll put my arm, my arm like this and just, and just chat. But when you're on a date, leaning into somebody, making eye contact, you know, like acting like there's nobody else anywhere, putting your phone away. Please turn your phone off, off, off. But like body language is about eye contact, leaning in and just really connecting.
[50:46] And it's very clear to me when I'm watching people at a, like I have, sometimes I'll throw happy hours and singles events. I can literally tell which, which people are into which people by looking at the way their belly buttons, their feet, their body language, if they're leaning back, if they're leaning in. When you like someone, you want to be close to them. You want to lean towards them. You want to look them in the eye, but you also do have to be sensitive about personal space because I'm a personal space person. I'm very huggy, but like, don't get within, especially since COVID, like don't crowd me. So another thing is, you know, when you're out there, read the signals you're getting.
The Importance of Being Authentic
[51:26] If you're talking with someone and they're just clearly don't want to be near you and they're facing the other way, just move on to the next person, you know?
[51:36] So we've talked about how hard it can be being different. Oh my God, yeah. That's a real thing. Yeah. So, for example, you and I, we're plantstrong, right? We're plant-based. We're vegans. And I know we talked about this earlier about, you know, casting a wider net. But outside of that, like, what would you say to somebody if whether it's, you know, their the way they eat, their religion, whatever it is, how what would you what advice would you give them if they are different?
[52:18] Yeah. You know, I own the fact that the way that I eat and the things that I believe are just so different than the general population. And it's something I'm passionate about. And I'll tell you one thing that's a turn on to singles is passion. Passion. I tell all my clients, but it doesn't matter what that passion is. I had a client once who raised bees in his backyard. And I'm like, look, if you're into that, that's cool. I had another guy who was into Civil War reenactments. To me, that's pretty geeky. But what I find as a turn-on as a woman is when a man is passionate about something and he's got stuff he's into. to. Um, but being different, you just have to own it. You have to be authentic. You don't want, you have to be you because you want someone to really love you for you. So, you know, one of the things that you and I talked about is that, um.
[53:16] If you're plant-based vegan and you're dating, there's discrimination. Actually, one of my best friends, Debbie, who was vegan before I was, she's been vegan for 30 years. She's dating on the apps right now. And we'll get a message from guys saying, you know, I don't think this is a fit, you know, you're vegan. And her response is usually, I don't care what you eat. Like you do you, but quite often people decline. And that's cool. If you don't appreciate me, then you don't get to date me. It's as simple as that. And it's, it's like, uh, whatever your difference is, if you have, if you have a handicap, if you, um, whatever it is, I can think of a million different things. You have to just realize that the right person is going to adore you exactly the way you are, you know, adore you. So just, you know, one of the things I don't care for is people who try to be something else, because then you get stuck, you know, pretending and you're stuck in a relationship now with someone who thinks you're not you. Well, and speaking of being authentic.
[54:27] Yeah. With people that don't post authentic photos or don't say, don't say, you know, authentic things. And I, we, you and I talked about this not too long ago, how I've had people send me photos of guys posing with my profile picture as whoever they are. And then in the copy, they say, it is so important to be real, to be who you are and all that stuff. And it's like, Oh my God, you are a total poser across the board here, buddy. Yeah. So anybody who dates online is going to come across people who are, um.
[55:05] Who are lying. But I just want to give a shout out that I would say my guesstimate is that 90% of people on those apps are really good people who are looking for love sincerely. And don't let those few annoying people who are trying to scam you or, you know, just don't let them stop you. I was at a dating conference and learned a statistic. It was years ago, but I imagine it's still true that about 25% to 33% of people who date online never go on a single date. They're amusing themselves or they are too anxious to actually take the step of meeting someone. So what I tell people is don't stay on the app forever chatting with someone. Once you have had a short conversation and you think someone seems nice and normal, suggest getting together um you know one of the things i tell this is for women because you it's nice to have a man ask you out but you could say something like you know i'm really enjoying our conversation you seem like a quality person i'm wondering if you're open to something more personal than messaging here or for the men just saying you know you seem like a quality person listen, I'm wondering if you'd be open to meeting.
[56:21] I'd love to plan a date for us. So you can tell I'm a little old fashioned. But as a woman, you could even say to a guy, I'm wondering if you're open to getting together for drinks. So don't stay on the app because you have no idea who you're really talking with. And some people are great writers, but then you meet them in person and you know within five seconds that this person is not for me. I will say that it's very common for men over 50 to fudge on their age.
[56:50] I want to share that I have some really good guy friends who are good people who do it. So my advice is please be honest about your age. Please be honest about everything because the person is going to meet you. And starting an interaction with a lie just sucks. Yeah. Yeah. But you have to decide what you're going to let go. I mean, I don't think that's a huge one. By the way, I teach all of my clients to do background checks. And one of the lovely things about a background check is once you have someone's name and you know where they live, you can find out how old they are in five seconds. You just click and it shows you their birth year, their address. You know, can I talk about safety when you're dating online for a second? Absolutely. I also want to say, say, say that I think as part of that is that when you work with clients, you do background checks on everybody that they're, you're going to pair them up with, right? No, actually, I do background checks. I have. Well, I do background checks on my clients. I want to make sure that my clients are someone that I can tell I can tell their potential match. This person is safe for you to meet. This person is a quality person. This is someone you can trust. I I offer that service to my my matchmaking clients if they want me to do background searches. But, you know, a lot of people don't care. And I teach my clients, my coaching clients how to do that themselves.
[58:19] Um okay yeah yeah well sometimes those searches i mean the the background checks are not entirely reliable so you have to obviously use your best judgment meet people in public places tell a friend you know where you're going and when you're going to be back you have to be you know don't drink too much like like use common sense when you're dating don't invite someone you barely know back to your home don't get in a car with someone you don't know well, use common sense but when you're dating on the apps there's there's two things that I think are really smart to do just for your own safety and when I talk about safety you know I'm speaking mostly I coach women but this is for everyone in terms of your privacy don't use well you can if you want to but I would say don't use your your real phone number get a google voice number they're free and so that's a number that forwards to your number so you don't have to put your number out there because people can take your phone number. They can do a reverse number check. They can know where you live.
[59:19] And I just think it's nice not to have your number out there. I also tell people when you're dating online, if your name is Carla with a K, change it to a C.
[59:28] Or if you have, you know, you might want to use your middle name. But until you meet someone in person, right, you don't know if they're safe or who they are. So just be a little cautious and be smart. And I want to reemphasize that, you know, I'm going to say 95% of people on the apps are amazing people who are genuinely looking for love. You just have to be smart. Somebody asks you for money, you are not sending them money for anything. No, you're not. And I'm shocked at how many people, you know, fall for that. Don't fall for that. Yeah. What do your parents think of what you're doing? Oh, that's a sweet question. So when I first started, I I've always been very entrepreneurial and I tried a lot. I raised my kids for 17 years. So when I was in my, I don't know, early forties and figuring out what I wanted to do for a living, I tried so many different things. And so the day that I announced I'm going to be a matchmaker to my parents, my mom, literally, it was like an eye roll. Like, okay, my daughter, the matchmaker, she thought it was a little ridiculous. Now that I've been doing this for 15 years, and there are so many happy couples and children in the world. And my parents are so proud. They're always my mom. Anytime she's at like a dinner party, and she meets someone single, she's handing out my card.
[1:00:48] It's so sweet. I love it. I've actually I actually worked with one of my, two of my dad's friends were my clients. One of them, I never told my dad because he wanted the privacy, but, you know, I love them so much. They're wonderful. That's so adorable.
[1:01:07] Speaking of being different and being vegan, last night you were out to dinner with your parents. And you mentioned that your father kind of did a little jab, made a little fun of you. Uh, how do you, how do, how do you react when your dad does that? Well, no, it's what happened was we were talking about going to, there's a restaurant in the DC area called Planted. That's all, um, plant-based. And he said something about like me being charged of the restaurant. And I'm like, why am I in charge of the restaurant? And he said to me, why do you think like, you know, um, I had to, you look, you love your, I love my parents and I want them to be healthy and I want them to be vibrant. But I believe that eating is so personal and some people are not going to hear you or they're not going to want to hear you. And I actually talked to a therapist about this. It's really hard. And so she suggested just practicing radical acceptance in that we're each on our own journey.
[1:02:15] And that we have to accept that we're each on our own journey. We can share what we want to share, but then we just need to step back and let people live their own lives or on their own path. You know, I have some friends who are very curious about my lifestyle. They see that I, you know, play pickleball seven days a week, that I only need five hours of sleep, that I'm full of energy, that I look good for almost 60 years old, right? And they're like, what are you doing?
[1:02:40] And they want to know. And I have many friends who have become plant-based just from me leading by example. And then I have other people who are, they don't want to hear a word I have to say. They're like, just shush already. We don't want to hear it. We don't care. And so radical acceptance is my new thing. I'm trying very hard. I think that's a nice philosophy.
[1:03:08] So outside of matchmaking, and I think you've kind of said it, but what is your biggest passion in life right now? Oh, my biggest passion in life. Well, I'm, I am a little obsessed with pickleball. If I'm being honest, I'm a little, a client gave me this necklace. It's a little pickleball paddle. Oh yeah. I want to say, I want to say something to all your listeners. If you're feeling lonely or you're feeling like you want a new friend group or you want to find love, there is no better place to meet new people. There is no more welcoming place to meet new people. Pickleball is for everyone. I don't care if you're 17 or 97 and you can still move. I mean, I literally played pickleball with someone who is 94.
[1:03:48] Pickleball is so great because you don't have to be an athlete. You can be at any level and have fun. And what I love about it is you don't have to set up games. There's always what's called open play where you can go and just show up. So like I was doing a retreat for some of my coaching clients in Florida and our Airbnb wasn't ready. I landed at nine. I looked on my phone. I found open play pickleball. I went to the tennis center, you know, in Delray beach. And I was playing pickleball an hour later with all these new friends. I ended up going to lunch with them. Like when I was in Sedona, but not, not, not at your thing. But when I was in Sedona, I was, my girlfriends wanted to go shopping and I was like, I don't want to go shopping. I want to play pickleball. So I ended up meeting the Sedona Pickleball Club. They gave me a t-shirt. They gave me a ride in the middle of a pandemic, by the way, they were just so gracious.
[1:04:38] Anywhere you go in the United States of America, actually, I went to your mom and sisters. Um, yeah. What's it called? The women warriors. Yeah. I went to their program. And one of the days I was just, I was jonesing for some pickleball. So I ended up going to the YMCA right near where the Kenyon colleges. And I played pickleball and made friends. So like, I'm so obsessed with this game. I love it so much. Yeah. I mean, I think, and we talked about this, that pickleball dating is, is a thing and it's, Oh, it is a thing. Totally. I've done two singles, um, pickleball, uh, parties and there have, there have couples that have come out of those two parties. Um, yeah, it's, it's a wonderful, Oh, I have a, I have a couple of friends who met on the pickleball court on the Eastern and shore of Maryland. And they actually got married in white pickleball clothes on the court where they met.
[1:05:36] Love it. And you know what? That's one of the reasons why I went to the Sedona retreat. I was really excited to learn and hear all the speakers. But when I heard there was pickleball, I was like, okay, I mean, vegetables and pickleball, this is my jam. I'm going. Jane told me, she said, Rip, there is this fanatic named Michelle who loves pickleball. She ducked out at one of our afternoon sessions to go play pickleball. And when I told her about Sedona and that there would be pickleball, she said she signed up that afternoon. I signed up right there. I was like, wait, and I really wanted to get to know you also. And we, you know, what's fun about pickleball is that it's, it's a lighthearted, fun game. It's also very athletic depending on how you play.
[1:06:17] And I mean, it was just, I felt like it's just such a good way to make friends. It's such a connector. It's really special. It is such a connector. And case in point, we did that immersion in Sedona in the middle of October. Towards the end of November, the Esselstyn family was getting awarded that prize at the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine. It was at the National Press Club in D.C., yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And Gwen Whitaker, who runs Green Fair, it's in Reston, Virginia.
[1:06:52] I she wanted to meet to do a lunch event. And so I had like a four hour window between the evening and then after I did this event and and we somehow connected. And you're like, I got to pick a ball game at the YMCA show up at two thirty and we're going to like have a blast. And we did yep I mean I was like hey Rip if you're in dc i'm gonna set up a pickleball game and we're gonna play and we did it was really really fun and then after that you went to get the the award ceremony and Iwent there too it was fun yeah and you you and I were we are we we we are pickleball fanatics we I think we both played for two hours this morning I did I actually played for two hours and 20 minutes. I was there at 8.30. I'm not even a morning person, but I was like, yeah, I want to go play this morning. It was fun. No, if you're playing in the morning, you get up with a little kick in your step. It's exciting. It's funny. I find that two hours is, typically, or an hour and a half isn't enough. You got to have like two to two and a half to kind of get it out of you. I work, I mean, I play with a lot of, I was a tennis player for years and I only played with women, but like 95% of people I play with are men. Don't know why, but a lot of my friends are retired and some of them play literally five, six, seven hours a day.
[1:08:15] They They like, they come over to play. We have a court in the backyard. They come over to play and I'm there. They're like just coming from playing somewhere else. I'm like, what? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's just, anyways, if you haven't tried it, people, you've got to try it. And it's just a beautiful way to make friends. I probably have, and I'm not exaggerating. I swear 150 friends I didn't have three years ago.
[1:08:39] It's really special. Like some of my closest friends in the world I've met through pickleball. Yeah um well I think the reason why probably most of them are men is because you're so good and thanks you're better he's really people he's really good like playing with rip is not is not, it's serious business well and to get good it always helps if you play with people that are better than you and i've been trying to do that a lot lately and um yeah I mean this morning I played for two hours and these guys were incredible I know you play singles too and And pickles, singles pickleball is really athletic. Oh, it is. That's a workout. But come on, everybody listening is if you're eating the right way, you have all the stamina and energy. And I wanted to say one thing, like my husband, you know, now that he's eating plant based, he's beating his, he's a competitive cycler. He's beating his cycling times from 15 years ago. He's blowing them away, blowing them away. That's impressive. That's so fun for him. He compares them on, like he has them on Strava. Like he can see what he did 15 years ago. And he's like, I'm killing it. Right. And he's turning 60 next week. So, uh, Michelle, uh.
[1:09:52] You're going to gift everybody that's listening to this with a, was it a downloadable version of your book? Yeah, it's a free download of my book. And when I tell you the name of the book, the women are going to want to download it, but I wouldn't mind if the men did too, because a lot of my male clients have taken a lot from the book, but it is called never waste time on the wrong man again. And if you go to michellesbook.com, there's a free download there.
[1:10:19] That will put you on my list. If you want to unsubscribe, if you don't want to be on the list, that's totally cool. You can have the book, but that will put you into, you know, you'll get some emails from me, but that book, if you do, this is,
[1:10:32] this is for everyone listening. If you do what I teach you to do in that book, there's absolutely no way you will end up in an unhealthy relationship. It's impossible. That's, I guarantee that. That's how confident I feel about it. That's the Michelle guarantee right there. Yeah. Iron clad. Love that. And Michelle, I can't even tell you how much I've enjoyed talking about dating and your career as a matchmaker and what people can do to have a healthier relationships and find lasting love. It's good stuff.
[1:11:11] Yeah. You know what? I mean, everybody wants to share their life. Most, I mean, most everybody. Life is better when shared. and um anyone who's feeling frustrated just know that you know I know someone who, fell in love with match date number seven zero got married had three children and lived happily ever after what if she had quit after number 65 you know don't quit have fun while you're dating people are really neat be in the moment and enjoy yourself and and just stick to stick with it your person's out there. Yeah. Michelle, you have such a wonderful, refreshing attitude around, around not only dating, but what I love is that it just permeates out into everything you do in life. And, uh, we, we all, we all could take a little bit more of, of your attitude with us. So thank you, Michelle. It's been an absolute pleasure. Will you give me a virtual plantstrong fist bump on the way out. Bam. There you go. A little squirt.
[1:12:21] You can get a free copy of Michelle Jacoby's book at michellesbook.com, and I'll be sure to put a link in the show notes for that. You can also learn more about her at michellejacoby.com. Until next week, keep it real, keep it authentic, and always, always keep it PLANTSTRONG. The PLANTSTRONG podcast team includes Carrie Barrett, Laurie Kortowich, and Ami Mackey. if you like what you hear do us a favor and share the show with your friends and loved ones you can always leave a five-star rating and review on apple podcasts or Spotify and while you're there make sure to hit that follow button so that you never miss an episode. As always, this and every episode is dedicated to my parents, Dr. Caldwell B. Esselstyn Jr. And Anne Crile Esselstyn. Thanks so much for listening.
