#153: Howie Jacobson - You Can Change Other People. Here's How!
We’ve all heard the phrase, “You can’t change others. You can only change yourself.”
It’s really frustrating when the people we care about are behaving in self-defeating ways (especially with their health and well-being), and when we try to talk to them about it, we just make things worse.
Our guest today, Howie Jacobson, is here to tell you, you CAN change people - not by force, shame, or guilt - but by becoming a supportive ally.
You may know Howie as the long-time host of the Plant Yourself podcast, and he’s also the co-author of some groundbreaking books including Whole by T.Colin Campbell, Proteinaholic with Dr. Garth Davis, and Sick to Fit with Josh Lajaunie.
His most recent book, “You CAN Change Other People: The Four Steps to Help Employees, Colleagues—Even Family—Up Their Game,” co-authored with Peter Bregman, outlines four steps to helping people change.
If you care about people around you who are eating poorly, not taking care of themselves, or not reaching their potential, Howie is here to help.
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Episode Timestamps
11:22 People don’t resist change. They resist BEING changed.
12:55 What does it mean to really help people change their behavior?
“We can use techniques and approaches to allow people to make different decisions.”
14:05 Step 1: Shift from a Critic to an Ally - "I’m here to help you if you want my help." -empathize -express confidence in them -ask for permission
22:50 Be prepared for them to say, “No thanks.”
25:25 Step 2: Find the Positive Outcome - What would you like to happen? What would it look like?
31:30 Step 3: Find a Golden Opportunity - What can you do right now?
41:06 Step 4: What’s the Plan?
Episode Resources
Order You Can Change People: The Four Steps to Help Your Colleagues, Employees—Even Family—Up Their Game
Ask Howie - Business Coaching Website
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Promo Music: Your Love by Atch License: Creative Commons License - Attribution 3.0
Full YouTube Transcript
Rip Esselstyn:
Hey, everyone. I want to share this email with you, it's from Ruth Morrow and she writes, "Hello, Rip. I wanted to say thank you for producing your line of PLANTSTRONG products. My husband and I have been dabbling with eating plant-based for a few years, but now due to a health scare and a cardiac intervention for my husband, we are all in. I love filling my pantry with your chilies and stews and batch cooking with all of your new broths. I look at the products as an investment in our health, and I appreciate all you've created. Breakfast is always Rips Big Bowl and we have your pizza every Friday night. We know that your products are actually helping us to heal our bodies, and we love that they actually taste great, too. I tell all of our friends to jump on the PLANTSTRONG wagon before they need to. We have read the research and we listen to your podcast every week, and are convinced this is our best chance to stop the progression of heart disease and to help us be healthy role models for our children and grandchildren. Keep up the good work, Ruth Morrow."
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, Ruth, you have not only made my day, you have made the day of everyone on the PLANTSTRONG team. It gives us so much pride to know that you are leaning on us, as you look to turn around your health. These are the exact reasons we get out of bed each day and work to create all of these health promoting products. For people like you, who want convenience and progress. Please, keep us posted on your husband's health and let us know how he's doing. All of our products are available to ship straight to your doorstep. So if you or a loved one is recovering from a hospital stay, there's really no better gift than our ready to eat chilies and stews, that you can just throw into a bowl, heat in the microwave for a minute and a half. And there you go, you got your meal. Nourishing meals that provide all the benefits of PLANTSTRONG living. What could be better? Check out our full assortment at planstrongfoods.com.
Howie Jacobson:
The key point of the book is that we need each other. It's not like this is a magic method that simply works on its own. But what it does is kind of invites people into relationship. And the truth is change is hard. Change is really hard. And you guys understood this before anyone, by having these big events and conferences, where people could come and be supported. That community is important and that this book is really a tool for people to work together.
Rip Esselstyn:
I'm Rip Esselstyn and welcome to the PLANTSTRONG Podcast. The mission at PLANTSTRONG is to further the advancement of all things within the plant-based movement. We advocate for the scientifically proven benefits of plant-based living and envision a world that universally understands, promotes and prescribes plants as a solution to empowering your health, enhancing your performance, restoring the environment and becoming better guardians to the animals we share this planet with. We welcome you wherever you are on your PLANTSTRONG journey. And I hope that you enjoy this show.
Rip Esselstyn:
We've all heard the phrase, "You can't change others, you can only change yourself." And I know it can be super frustrating when the people that we care about are behaving in self defeating ways, especially with their health and wellbeing. And I've talked about this with lots of other guests on the PLANTSTRONG Podcast. And when we try to talk to them about it, we just start making things worse. So we tell ourselves it's impossible and then try and bite our tongues until we feel like we're going to explode.
Rip Esselstyn:
My guest today, Howard Jacobson is here to tell you and me, you can change people. Not by force, shame or guilt, but by becoming a supportive ally. You may know Howie as the longtime host of The Plant Yourself Podcast, he's also the co-author of some really groundbreaking books, including Whole by T Colin Campbell, Proteinaholic with Dr. Garth Davis and Sick to Fit with Josh LaJaunie. His most recent book, You Can Change Other People: The Four Steps to Help Your Colleagues, Employees, Even Family, Up Their Game. Co-authored by Peter Bregman, outlines four steps to helping people change.
Rip Esselstyn:
In this conversation with Howie, he helps us understand how we can help people get excited about the futures that they long for. Not only does Howie say it's possible, but it's often our responsibility. If you're a leader or manager in an organization, you need to get the people around you to act differently in order to accomplish important work. He also tells us that if you care about people around you who are suffering and not reaching their potential, eating poorly, not taking care of themselves, not exercising. It's your longing to want this for them and Howie is here to help us understand how to make this happen. Let's create some long lasting positive change in those we love.
Rip Esselstyn:
So first let me say, Howie has a new book that he has co-authored with Peter Bregman. This is it right here, it's called ... oh boy, Rip. They're like, that's not going to work, is it.
Howie Jacobson:
I could hold up mine.
Rip Esselstyn:
You can hold up yours. Yeah.
Howie Jacobson:
I have a real background.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, there you go. There you go. You Can Change Other People: The Four Steps to Help Your Colleagues, Employees, Even Family, Up Their Game. And I am so interested in hearing about this for a multitude of reasons, as you can imagine. But before, you have been pretty darn enthusiastic about all things in the plant-based space for how long? When did your plant-based journey begin?
Howie Jacobson:
Well, my plant-based journey began in 1990. I actually, it was like three weeks after my father died of a heart attack, I picked up John Robbins, Diet for a New America. And I had no interest in nutrition or health or ecology or any of that stuff. And I read that book and it really turned me around. And over the years, I'd fall off, I'd fall back on. Then meeting Colin Campbell and reading The China Study in 2004 and then getting an opportunity to work with him in 2011. So it's been a long journey and it has not been perfect. Like I would forget and life would get in the way.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Howie Jacobson:
But I've been sort of circling the north star of whole food plant based eating for 31 years now.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. And then you even got a ... so you went to Princeton and then afterwards you got a degree, was it in? In public health?
Howie Jacobson:
Yeah, I got a Master's in Public Health and a Doctorate in Health Studies from Temple University.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, obviously this is something that has been very passionate within you and has driven you to do all kinds of great things. I mean, in addition to working with Colin Campbell on Whole, you also have worked extensively with Josh LaJaunie.
Howie Jacobson:
Yep.
Rip Esselstyn:
Sick to Fit.
Howie Jacobson:
He's my boy.
Rip Esselstyn:
He is your boy. He is. And then obviously, Garth Davis with Proteinaholic. What a great title, that book is brilliant.
Howie Jacobson:
Yeah, it is.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know who came up with that, you or Garth. But congratulations on that because we are a bunch of proteinaholics in this country.
Howie Jacobson:
Yep. Yep. Actually, I don't think I've ever come up with a good title. In fact, I remember a conversation with Colin Campbell where I told him that I thought Forks Over Knives was a silly title and it was never going to amount to anything.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, yeah. Well, frankly, it's funny because I had Brian Wendell on the podcast. And he was saying how he just felt like that was it. And he had to drive everybody on his team to kind of rally behind him on that because they were like, "Oh no, this is not good." But it ended up working. Sometimes you never know until you throw it out into the universe.
Howie Jacobson:
Right.
Rip Esselstyn:
For sure. Well, so why don't we ... I mean, I'd love to, Howie, just dive into this new book that you wrote with Peter. And so, I'm just going to read what you guys have here on the inside flap. And that is, "You can't change other people, you can only change yourself." Which I'm sure if we were to ask 100 people walking into a Whole Food Market store, do you think you can change other people? They would say, "No, you can only change yourself." But you guys say that's a truism and it's not true at all. So I would love to understand how I can change people and what are the four steps. And I don't have any idea where you want to start with this.
Howie Jacobson:
Yeah. Well, let's start with that idea that we can't change other people. So the truth is people change all the time on their own. People will pick up one of your books or come to an event and they'll change how they do things. People get married, they change jobs, they move. Like people don't resist change, they resist being changed. So that's the kicker. When we try to change other people and it feels like we're trying to take control, we're trying to take control away from them. We've got ownership, we know what they should be doing. Then it almost never works.
Howie Jacobson:
And in fact, it damages the relationship. So I know like so many people that we work with, they see the light and they get healthier. And the thing they want to do is spread the gospel to everyone they know. And especially, their spouse or their kids or their siblings or their parents, people they really care about. And the way they can go about it is just going to create all this resistance, it's going to make people feel like, who are you to be telling me this? Or even if we tell people things that they already know, like, you sure you want to have that third bowl of ice cream? Like, just if you hear that, you're like, "Heck yeah."
Rip Esselstyn:
Right.
Howie Jacobson:
Like who are you to tell me? You're not the boss of me.
Howie Jacobson:
In the title, you can change other people, it really means not that we impose our will on them. But we can use techniques and approaches that allow people to make different decisions and engage in different behaviors that are more in line with their best interests, with their values, with their goals. And so instead of trying to pull them in the direction that we want them to go, we have to give up some control and we have to trust other human beings that they kind of know what's good for them. And we can help them get out of their own way.
Rip Esselstyn:
So I read the book from cover to cover and I think it's absolutely fantastic. And I read this and I'm like, "Oh my gosh, if I would've had this 10, 15 years ago. So many of my relationships, business relationships, colleague relationships, family relationships would be better off." Because as you said, you can't force anyone to change. And this to me is why step number one is so brilliant.
Howie Jacobson:
Thank you. Yeah, I mean, that's kind of the crux of the whole thing. Do you want me to just say what it is?
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, absolutely.
Howie Jacobson:
Just to shift from a critic to an ally. And I have to say like start working on this book, I really began to understand more deeply what a critic is. Because I thought a critic is someone who just criticizes, who just tells you what you're doing wrong, tells you what's wrong with you, nags you. But there's so many other ways to be a critic, it's essentially the critic gives the message, "I know more than you."
Howie Jacobson:
So if I give you advice, I'm saying, "I know more." Unsolicited advice, if someone comes to you and say, "Hey, Rip, how should I eat?" They want to hear from you. But if you just go up to someone and say, "Hey, that meal you ordered, here's how you could do it better." They're hearing you as saying, "I am superior. I know more than you." And a lot of what we talk about in the book, like we've heard at plant stock from people like Doug Lyle.
Rip Esselstyn:
Sure.
Howie Jacobson:
Who brilliantly talks about how to lower your own status. Which I had trouble with because, look, I've written books. Or Colin Campbell or you, we're not going to just go around pretending we just heard this somewhere and hey gee, it's working for me. There's other ways to not be threatening. And one way is to say, "I'm here, I want to help you if you want my help." As opposed to, "I know what's better for you than you do."
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, to me, that whole, you go into it and if you can get them to become your ally ... and then there's obviously some techniques that you've written about to become their ally. And it's almost then like you formed this partnership.
Howie Jacobson:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right, to go forward and kind of solve this issue, problem or change, whatever it is you're trying ... whatever the end goal is.
Howie Jacobson:
Right. Like if you have a spouse who's just not eating well and you're scared for them, you don't want them to get sick, you don't want them to die prematurely. And so all you know how to do is to, "Hey, do you want to try a vegan restaurant tonight?" Or, "Hey, maybe I can make you the Forks Over Knives loaf instead of the meatloaf." Like all this stuff. And it's just leading to more and more conflict. At some point you go, "I either have to choose the relationship or the goal." And so we give up. But the way that we're talking about actually prioritizes privileges the relationship as the means to get to the goal/ that without the relationship, you're not going to help them get there.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yes. Yes. So can you give us an example? Can you like role play? Like what would that look like?
Howie Jacobson:
Yeah, sure. So it depends. So, if someone comes to you and they say, "Hey, I need help with this." Then it's easy. So let's talk about when you have to initiate. So, one way to do it that I like is to wait for what we call a silver platter opportunity, that when the person just complains. So, if someone happens to say, "Oh, it's so hard to get up off my chair." Or, "I've got heartburn again." Or any sort of complaint. Complaints mean we're not taking responsibility for solving it. We're just sort of saying what's wrong. So a lot of coaches really don't like hearing complaints because it feels like people are not stepping up, they're not taking agency for their lives. I love complaints because it's a way in.
Howie Jacobson:
So the process here is to first empathize. "Boy, that sounds really hard." "Oh, I can imagine." Or, "Yeah. I've had a bad back, I know how that feels." Or, "Yeah, it's so hard to be positive when your stomach's upset." And like some truthful empathy. Next express confidence in them. You've handled lots of challenges, I know you can get through this. Something of that nature. And you're not lying when you say that, because when you think about it, if you didn't have confidence that they could change, you wouldn't even be involved in the conversation. Like you just wouldn't waste your time. So the fact that you want to help them change means you're, by definition, confident that they can do it.
Howie Jacobson:
And then the third step is to ask for permission. And the phrase we've come up with, it seems to work better than any other is something along the lines of, "Would you like to think this through together?" As opposed to, "Would you like my help?" Or, "Would you like some coaching on it?" Because like thinking it through together really positions you as a partner, as a supporter of their thinking. And it signals that they have all the ownership, it's going to be their thinking and you're just going to be a partner with them.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. I mean, it is such a beautiful jujitsu move. It truly is. But it's coming from the right place.
Howie Jacobson:
Well, that's-
Rip Esselstyn:
But ... yeah.
Howie Jacobson:
Sorry, go ahead.
Rip Esselstyn:
No, no. It's coming from the right place and we're just so conditioned for whatever reason that, as you said in the very, very top of this. We don't mind changing, but we're not going to change if somebody else is trying to make us change.
Howie Jacobson:
Yeah. And people can feel very bad about wanting to change their spouse. Like, "Oh, I keep on saying that thing, I keep on criticizing my child." Like, "Oh, I don't like who I am when I do this, but I just can't help myself." So like, what you said is so beautiful that we're coming from the right place is important. And in our formulation, everybody's always coming from the right place. We want them to change because we love them, we care about them, we want them to be healthy, we want them to be well, we want our children to have parents.
Howie Jacobson:
So one of the things we ask people to do is get in touch with your own positive intention. At the very beginning, so if you've been beating yourself up, "Oh, I'm such a nag. I keep doing it." What matters to you? That anytime we get upset for any reason, it's because a value of ours is being threatened. So, if I read the newspaper and I get upset at a headline, it's because there's something I care about that's at stake. So first acknowledge that in ourselves.
Howie Jacobson:
And then look at the other person with the same eyes. Like, I don't care what your bad habit is, you're doing it for a good reason. People who eat really junky food, they're doing it to feel better in the moment, they're doing it because there's an addiction that tells them, this is how I feel good. This is how I get to be okay. And being okay and feeling good and feeling love and feeling connection are human birth rights, they're extremely valid. So, there's no dysfunctional behavior that we can't look at and say, "This is a misguided attempt to get something good." And once we can see people in that light, it becomes much easier to do those three steps, empathy, confidence, and permission without trying to fake it.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. And one of the things you also talk about under shifting from the critic to the ally in the first step. Is how you do not want to rely on your position of power to try and make this change. That's just going to backfire.
Howie Jacobson:
Right. Right. Because often we have less power than we think we do.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right.
Howie Jacobson:
Right. So the book is from my perspective, I wrote it from my experience in helping people make health changes and life changes. My co-author Peter Bregman is an executive coach and so there's a lot of business in there. And so you can say, "Well, if you're the boss, you obviously have all this positional power. You can just tell people what to do." If that were true, I mean, you spent your life in business. Do you find that bosses can tell people what to do? And that means it gets done or it gets done the way you want it to?
Rip Esselstyn:
No, absolutely not.
Howie Jacobson:
Right. So, positional power becomes a crutch. And when you have positional power, you can get people to do things, but they're typically going to do the minimum. In organizations where people don't feel valued and they don't feel like they belong, by definition, they're basically doing just enough to not get fired.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Yeah. So anything else you want to talk about on step number one?
Howie Jacobson:
Yeah. You have to be willing for them to say no. Like, "No, I don't want to think it through with you."
Rip Esselstyn:
And then what do you do? Just step away?
Howie Jacobson:
Well, you step away at that moment. I mean, I will say, "Great, that's fine. I'm here if you want me." And I find that a lot of the time, especially ... I want to share one other thing about this step. But especially if you have a long history of conflict over this issue. Like you're the person who's gone to Plant Stock four times and you dragged your spouse the last time. And they're like, "Oh, what is this big pile of green stuff?" And they're just like not enjoying themselves and it's become a real sore point in the relationship. When you say, "Oh, that's fine. We don't have to talk about ... I don't need to think it through with you." For the first time, they're getting a message that you are honoring their own autonomy and their ownership.
Howie Jacobson:
So that in of itself can lead them to then say later on, like later that day or next week, or next month, "You know what? I do want to talk about this with you." Because they're not feeling threatened and they're not feeling shame about it. So that was the other thing I wanted to say is if you've been in this long intractable fight with someone, what you're asking of them is to be vulnerable. When someone's going to change, they have to be vulnerable.
Howie Jacobson:
So you go first and you could say something like, "Hey, I don't think I've done this well. I feel like I've been hard on you and I've been nagging and it hasn't helped. And I'm sorry. I know why I did it and you probably know why I did it too, but that doesn't excuse it. And I just want to apologize. And I want to commit going forward to not trying to be this bully or trying to constantly change you. I apologize." And just saying that, like you can imagine a lot of conversations could then, "Oh, well, I know you're trying to do good and I would really liked it."
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, yeah. That's wonderful to show that vulnerability, to apologize. And then I think it opens up that door, for sure.
Howie Jacobson:
Yeah. And so, a big part of this process, the title, You Can Change Other People, might indicate that we have some sort of control. But paradoxically, we get to have the greatest influence when we completely give up control. Well, give up the illusion of control because we never had control in the first place.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. What about step number two?
Howie Jacobson:
Yeah, I love step number two. I love all the steps. It's like when you introduce me as a very special guest, like I want to hear the person you said, "Today's guest isn't very special." Best we could do.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. You don't say very special all the time. You are a very special guest.
Howie Jacobson:
I appreciate that.
Rip Esselstyn:
Let's find the positive outcome, shall we?
Howie Jacobson:
Positive outcome. Very good. You have read this book.
Howie Jacobson:
So when someone says yes, like I'm willing to think it through with you. Our minds immediately want to jump in and like solve the problem. Because our minds love problems, we love to solve problems. In relationship, we love to be smart, we love to be helpful. And that's why the second step is to wait, don't jump into the problem. But instead, ask the person sort of what would you like to happen? What's an energizing outcome?
Howie Jacobson:
Because if we dive right into the problem, they've been dealing with this problem maybe for decades. Everybody's been on 20 diets, everybody's read all the books, everybody's tried stuff. And so if we're just going back into solving the problem, we're probably not going to have any new ideas. And when we think about problems, we're still sort of in fight or flight. It's a thing I want to get away from. So instead we say, "What would you like to have happened? What would be a great outcome for you? If you could solve this exactly how you want to solve it, what would that look like? What would that do for you? How would your life be?"
Rip Esselstyn:
So to put this in like ... to frame it up in a context. Can we give an example of, let's just say we have somebody who's 310 pounds and they've got elevated cholesterol, they've had a heart attack.
Howie Jacobson:
Okay.
Rip Esselstyn:
Let's just use that as the-
Howie Jacobson:
Okay.
Rip Esselstyn:
If you're okay with that.
Howie Jacobson:
Yeah, yeah. Sure.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay, okay. So keep going. So we're trying to find an energizing outcome to this problem that this person has had, let's just say his name is Jim. That Jim has had for a good 20 years.
Howie Jacobson:
Right. So we're going to unrelated it to the problem. We're not going to worry about the problem now. We say like, "Jim, what would you like to have happen? What would a great outcome be?" And so Jim is-
Rip Esselstyn:
I'd love to get healthy. I'd love to get healthy and I'd love to lose the weight. But I've tried every diet under the sun and nothing seems to stick. So, I'm frustrated.
Howie Jacobson:
Yeah, I hear your frustration and I hear your self doubt, we can deal with that later. So first of all, out of scene, Rip, what you did was more advanced than most people are going to do. You're like, "I just want to get healthy." Most people are going to talk about what they want to avoid.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay, okay.
Howie Jacobson:
I want to stop taking these meds, I want to stop shooting myself up with insulin. So getting healthy, but even losing weight is a kind of like, I want to avoid being fat. So that's great, so then we say, "Okay, I hear all those doubts. What would your life be like? Imagine it's a year from now and you've lost that weight and you're healthy. Tell me, what would you do with that life? What would you do with that body?"
Rip Esselstyn:
My gosh, I wouldn't be going to the doctors once a week. I could hit the broken, spoke dance floor. I love dancing, but I haven't done it in years. My confidence is so low and I'm so overweight. I'd love to get off the medications. I don't have a life. I don't have life, Howie.
Howie Jacobson:
Wow. I hear how much this means to you. And I can totally understand when the stakes are so high, you really don't want to put yourself out and get disappointed. I totally get that. So getting your life back and going to the broken, spoken, dancing, like what would that do for you? Your face just lit up when I just repeat it back to you, what comes to mind? Like what's important to you about that?
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh, it brings me so much joy to be able to hear music, to move on the dance floor with a partner, doing the cotton eyed Joe, whatever it is. I mean, that's what I'd like to do again before I die. I really would.
Howie Jacobson:
So you mentioned a partner, it sounds like connecting with other people is important to you.
Rip Esselstyn:
You know what, Howie? It is. And I haven't connected with anyone really, since I started gaining this weight.
Howie Jacobson:
Yeah. Okay, so can we cut?
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Howie Jacobson:
And debrief.
Rip Esselstyn:
Absolutely.
Howie Jacobson:
Rip, I just want to give you your 350 pounds self a hug right now.
Rip Esselstyn:
Thank you, Howie.
Howie Jacobson:
Right. So when we're talking about an energizing outcome, we want it to be positive. So you can see the difference between, I want to get healthy and lose the weight. Get healthy is sort of positive, but it's also vague. As soon as you talked about dancing, like there's somewhere to go. Explore that, what would that do for you? And I got to this idea of connection.
Howie Jacobson:
So Jim is lonely. Jim is ashamed of himself. Jim is shut away. And connection with others seems to be like a huge value. So now, like goals are great. It's great to say, "Okay, I'm 350 pounds, I want to be down to 210 pounds in a year." Like, that's fine. The trouble with goals though, is when they're in the future, they can actually be demotivating because they seem so far away. Just as you as Jim, as soon as you said what you wanted, you immediately felt the low energy. Like I can't have it. So I like to use goals to establish what their values are. Like, what really matters? Jim really wants to participate in life and connect with other people. So that's the energizing outcome.
Howie Jacobson:
So now we can talk about the third step, which is to find a hidden opportunity. And the idea is that the goal, you can't have the goal now. All Jim can do now is not enjoy food as much. Pay now for pleasure later, it's not a real great equation for the human mind. But when we talk about like what the real outcome is, I want to connect with people and come to life. Now the opportunity is, how can you do that today? How can you do that right now in a way that is going to be relevant to the problem? How can you use the problem of, let's say, I'm just eating really poorly. I'm making terrible food choices and I'm inactive. How can we use that problem to achieve the outcome?
Howie Jacobson:
Because just getting Jim healthy doesn't solve the problem necessarily of connection. Jim can sit in his room and walk on a treadmill and order in freezer meals. So maybe Jim's going to find a walking buddy. And say like, okay, so I have all these fears. I'm terrified of how people will judge my body. And I want to live my value now. So I'm going to learn how to, at the same time, as I'm feeling this fear and shame around judgment. I'm going to go walk around the town with a friend. Or start changing my diet. And now when I get those cravings, I'm going to think about not, when am I going to lose 140 pounds? But I'm going to think about, how does the me who wants to be engaged in life and connected to other people eat.
Howie Jacobson:
So much of our bad eating is secret eating. So we can talk to Jim, like, "Are you binging in private?" Trying to be good publicly. So those are opportunities to then say, "Let's talk about connection. Let's talk about your values, the person you want to be right now." And yeah, it can be hard. You're going to be fighting stuff. But you're be doing it in the pursuit of these values, you can live now as opposed to some fantasy body you may or may not ever get.
Rip Esselstyn:
So when you say like we're trying to find the hidden opportunities, I think you have, in a very slippery way, you've moved on without letting me know to step number three.
Howie Jacobson:
Yep.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay. Okay.
Howie Jacobson:
Yep. Right. But I like step two, like when they come up with this energizing opportunity. It very naturally leads to, instead of now we're not ... like most of the time when we say, "Here's the opportunity." Solving the problem doesn't get us there. It's not like it's the positive of the negative. Solving the problem gets us from a negative to zero. But now when we got this energizing outcome, we actually want to do better than that. I don't just want to be off my diabetes meds, I want to be living a great life connected with the people I love, doing the things I love to do.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Yeah. It's a much deeper, richer reason to move in this direction.
Howie Jacobson:
Yeah. And because it's going to get hard because Jim's going to go out and he's going to smell delicious foods that he's become habituated to. And he is going to have to say, "The opportunity here is for me to live this value of being engaged in life." Like probably most people who eat a lot of junk food are doing it to satisfy an emotional itch in the moment. I don't feel good about myself. I'm unconnected. So as long as we're eating our emotions, we never have to face those emotions. So the opportunity is, now I'm feeling lonely. Jim's lonely and Jim's been solving loneliness bite by bite with junk food. Now Jim gets to face the loneliness and say, "The only way to solve this is with other people." So there's the opportunity in every moment that he wants to binge, every temptation, every craving, is now an opportunity to choose connection over pacification.
Rip Esselstyn:
Nice. Anything else in step number three, finding that hidden opportunity?
Howie Jacobson:
Yeah, there's lots of different types of hidden opportunities. So very often the opportunity might be something like, this is a symptom of a larger issue. So, we see this a lot in organizations that, let's say, there's a team and one of the people on the team is being very belligerent.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yes.
Howie Jacobson:
And we say, "Well, what we need to do is fire that person. Then we've solved the problem." But if we say, "What do I really want?" Well, the opportunity is a really high performing team. And a high performing team is one in which we can respectfully share opposing points of view. Then that person can become an opportunity. Like the problem isn't that person, the problem is no one else is raising difficult issues. So, they're the lightning rod, but they're not the entirety of the problem.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right. And I think the example in the book was Ramona ... wasn't Ramona the one that was-
Howie Jacobson:
Yep.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, yeah. As it turns out, she was kind of a little bit belligerent, but it's because she had the courage to basically raise her hand and say, "Hey, I want to question this." And her team members, her colleagues didn't like that. But then when you press them, really press them, what is it that you want? You discovered that, you know what? There is a lot of great value in what Ramona brings to the table. And so the issue was not really Ramona, it was kind of the way that they communicated and where they needed to go as a team.
Howie Jacobson:
Right. Yeah. So very often the thing we think of as the problem is actually ... it's like the leaves on top of the big tuber on the bottom. Like, oh, we can actually solve a much bigger, more important problem by addressing this.
Howie Jacobson:
Another is very often the opportunity is to grow your self identity. So I don't know how often do you hear from people why they can't be healthy because of some characteristic of theirs. I just have a sweet tooth, I'm not a morning person. Well, Rip, I'm not as self-disciplined as you are. People go to Plant Stock and they go, "Well, the Esselstyn's just have this incredible genetics. Like they're just lucky." And then you hear the talk about ... you see the slide with like the 43 diseases that run in your family.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yes, yes. It's rampant. It's rampant. Or at least I should say, it was rampant until I think my parents, Ann and Essy, through their legacy and my father's work were able to put a halt to the standard American diet and what was going into the Esselstyn's mouths.
Howie Jacobson:
Yeah. And at some point, both of them had to face limiting beliefs. Like, they had ideas about who they were and what was important. And in order to become the people they've become, or even to adopt the diet they adopted, they had to challenge those beliefs. I remember the story of your dad with the Reese's peanut butter cups. Like that was like his last holdout.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. New Year's.
Howie Jacobson:
Right. So, clearly there was struggle there. It wasn't just a simple matter of snapping his fingers, even though people look at him now and go, "Well, he's got more willpower than anyone." If someone has like this belief about themselves, well, a really common belief that people will come to Plant Stock with is, "Well, I've been on diets before and they all failed." Or, "I just can't stick to it." So every time someone slips up is an opportunity either to reinforce that belief or to get up again and say, "Oh, things are different this time." Last time I did Atkins and I had that donut, I just threw the book away. This time, I'm doing Engine 2 and I went and had a cheeseburger and I put it down after eating half of it and I got back up and I'm moving forward again. That's different.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Yeah. Good. You've done such a great job, you and Peter, in each one of the steps, doing mini chapters that kind of drive home, what it is and giving examples of how to do it. And I know it's hard and just a 45 minute podcast to kind of get all that in.
Howie Jacobson:
Are you saying that people should buy the book, Rip?
Rip Esselstyn:
I'm saying that people definitely should buy the book, no doubt about it. Because it so helps to read all the examples that you have and the tools that you guys lay out there. Do you want to talk about step number four?
Howie Jacobson:
Yeah. Yeah. Step number four is the difference between insight and action. So step four is the plan, where we say, "Okay, so what's going to actually happen?" So once we have this new opportunity, so if Jim is saying, "Well, see, every time I have the urge to eat my loneliness away, I'm now going to try something else. I could call a friend, I could do a Zoom call. I could go out and have a walk with someone. I could read a book." Something that connects him. They said, "Okay, well, let's make it real. What might you want to do?" We could talk about like different options. Always we're sort of keeping the ownership in the other person's court, if we're trying to help them.
Howie Jacobson:
So, what might you do now? And Jim, all of a sudden, instead of saying, "Well, I'm just going to muscle through and yeah, I'm going to get the vegan pizza instead of the cheese pizza." Now he's like, "Okay, I'm going to do this and here's how I'm going to do it." And we're like, "What would you like to commit to?" So we want the, what are you going to do by when? To choose an option and commit to it. And the most important thing, we call this, the create a level 10 plan. And level 10 refers to, when we ask the question, how confident are you that you're going to follow through on this plan? We want them to say, 10.
Rip Esselstyn:
And let's say they say six or seven or eight, do you keep pushing them until they kind of get to that 10? And what they need to do to get there?
Howie Jacobson:
Yeah, I don't push them, but I explore it. So, my superpower is always going to be curiosity and empathy.
Rip Esselstyn:
Good. Good super powers.
Howie Jacobson:
Yeah. So, if somebody says, "Well, no, actually I'm only at a six. Coin toss, whether I'm really going to do this." Say, "Great, what's getting in the way?" Because maybe he can't go 100% tomorrow. Maybe he asked has to stepwise it. Or maybe there's some things we can talk about. The most important thing is that somebody takes positive action, so they get new results. Even if the only thing they're going to do is meatless Mondays. At that Austin Symposium, there was a wonderful debate between two of the speakers about meatless Monday. And they were both exactly. One person said it's complete BS, it's not going to make a difference. We're facing a climate emergency and meatless Monday is just window dressing. And someone else said, behaviorally, meatless Monday is the first step that most people are going to take on their way to becoming fully plant based and embracing it. They're both absolutely right.
Howie Jacobson:
So I want people to take the first step and learn from it. So that's why we talk about follow through rather than success. I don't care if you succeed or not. I want to know that you're going to follow through and we're going to treat this as an experiment. So you may do it, you may fail. You may lose five pounds, you may gain three pounds. If people are just pragmatic about what am I doing and what is it getting me? And we adjust accordingly. That's like the secret of success is no more complicated than that. Do stuff, see what happens, and do it again differently.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right. And then what? Course correct and just do it again?
Howie Jacobson:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Under that create a level 10 plan, you guys are really adamant that you got to commit to the plan. Commit to it, make it happen.
Howie Jacobson:
Yeah. Yeah. So I would rather someone commit to, I'm going to have 20 diet sodas this week instead of 21. Because the one time, if they have it three times a day, every meal. And on Thursday lunch, they don't have it, they are going to learn something new about themselves. And all of a sudden, they're a slightly different person.
Howie Jacobson:
So instead of saying like, "Okay, I want you to jump to the top of Everest." Maybe you're going to walk. And each individual step doesn't seem daunting. But step by step is how you get there. So I want the person to experience success, I want them to experience the need for emotional courage. Because if you're addicted to a substance and however we want to understand that word addicted, but basically you go to it whenever you feel bad. That you're going to have to be willing to feel bad. There is no Engine 2 recipe that can solve emotional unhappiness. Engine 2 recipes can make your taste buds happy and they can fill you with nutrition, they are not going to solve your emotional problems. And neither has sugar, by the way.
Rip Esselstyn:
So you're saying that you got to get comfortable being uncomfortable.
Howie Jacobson:
Yeah. I mean, that was your career, wasn't it? I don't think I ever saw a picture of a triathlete in competition who looked like they weren't in pain.
Rip Esselstyn:
Very rarely. Every once in a while you had that race where you kind of felt like you were hovering outside your body and it was like complete Nirvana. But very few and far between, for sure.
Howie Jacobson:
And I would argue that you only get those moments because you're putting yourself in discomfort all the other moments.
Rip Esselstyn:
Exactly. Exactly. Anything else you want to say about the four steps? Anything that we've left out?
Howie Jacobson:
No, I think we covered it all. I think the only thing I want to say is that what I discovered ... and Peter and I both discovered this and we didn't tell each other for a while because we were embarrassed. We both tried the four steps on ourselves and it didn't work. And we were like, "Oh gee, what's wrong?" But then it works so well with other people.
Howie Jacobson:
And what we realized is like, the key point of the book is that we need each other. It's not like this is a magic method that simply works on its own. But what it does is kind of invites people into relationship. And the truth is change is hard. Change is really hard. And you guys understood this before anyone, by having these big events and conferences, where people could come and be supported.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Howie Jacobson:
That community is important. And that this book is really a tool for people to work together. So if I have something I'm working on, I give a copy of the book to someone that I want to help me. And I'll say, "Take me through this. Because life is hard, we're living in particularly challenging times right now. We need each other." And so I hope what this book will do is give people a tool to approach each other as allies and create that world.
Rip Esselstyn:
So let's say that there's somebody in my life that I want to change using these principles in the book. Do you recommend that I also ... like, should I get the book for them? So that they're on the same page? Or is it better when you're doing this and they're a little bit oblivious to how you're doing this.
Howie Jacobson:
I don't think you need them to be oblivious. This isn't like a secret Jedi mind trick that you're doing on people. However, I do find when people give me books, like, "Read this." Or, "You've got to watch that video." Like there can be some resistance. I would start with just getting permission, "Hey, want to think this through with me?" When they say yes, you can say, "I'm new at this. I'm reading a book. I just want you to know, I want to follow the process in here because it seems really nice." So, I wouldn't pretend that you're Svengali or some magician. I think you can be as transparent as possible.
Howie Jacobson:
I coach people on this all the time and I have my cheat sheet. I have two pages of crib sheet on my own process. So I don't forget anything. So I think, again, it's part of being vulnerable and just being honest and open and transparent. You want the person you're talking to be honest and transparent, as well. Because they're going to have to admit to things that maybe they didn't want to admit to you.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Yeah. In the dedication to this book, both you and Peter dedicated it to your fathers.
Howie Jacobson:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
And in your dedication, you said, "Dad, you showed me how to be a warrior for positive change and a steadfast champion of the underdog." I mean, the whole purpose of this book as you guys talk about is to increase the positive impact on the people around you. So I mean, I'm sure your dad would be just so, so proud of what you've created here.
Howie Jacobson:
I hope so. I like to think so. He was a fighter and I mean that in a literal and metaphorical sense. And people who know me know I'm pretty mild mannered. And so for me to kind of put myself out there is a challenge. It feels scary. So, wanting to have positive impact, I had to look at his example a little bit and say, if I want to have the impact that he had, I see him as a great man. I mean, both of us grew up in the shadow of very formidable dads. It's a blessing and it's also a challenge to say-
Rip Esselstyn:
So not a curse, but a challenge. That's good.
Howie Jacobson:
Yeah, I mean, we can turn it into a curse. Again, it's a problem, it's an opportunity. It's an invitation to say, "Well, who am I? How can I take the best of this man and be myself?" So I think, for me, this book was partly around flexing muscles around that a little bit.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. I like it. And also a steadfast champion of the underdog. So you like the underdog, huh?
Howie Jacobson:
Yeah. Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
I guess most people really are rooting for the underdog, aren't they? Kind of David versus Goliath.
Howie Jacobson:
Yeah. And I like the process that we have, it kind of democratizes power a little bit. Like you can do this with your boss, you can do this with parents. Because you're just trying to be helpful, it kind of takes any sort of hierarchy or status out of it.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. I picked up my daughter, my seven year old daughter from school yesterday. And the first thing I was supposed to do was take her to swim practice. She's part of this age group swim program. And of course, she got in the car and all of a sudden she kind of slinked down in the seat and she's like, "Daddy, I'm really tired. I don't want to go to swimming."
Rip Esselstyn:
And I'm like, "Well, I know how you feel. I've been there a lot. There's some practices where I have not wanted to go. And in fact, your older brother, Cole, also hasn't wanted to go a lot of the time. But you know what? We kind of came to this agreement that it's the 45 minutes swim practice. Let's go and you try it for 15 minutes. And after 15 minutes, if you tell me, daddy, I'm tired. I don't want to swim any longer. We'll get out of there. But if you're having fun, you just let me know and you can swim the whole time." And of course, she got in the water, after 15 minutes, she was like, "I'm having a lot of fun." She was leading the lane.
Rip Esselstyn:
So anyway, but the whole time I was doing that with her, I was thinking about your book. And I'm thinking about it now in a lot of my conversations with people, because as you know, I just launched this new food line and I've got a lot of people that I'm working with to make this happen, fractional and also full time. And everything in life is kind of about figuring out ways for people to become your allies and work together to like solve problems and have positive impacts. And anyway, this book couldn't have come at a better time for me.
Howie Jacobson:
Oh, that's awesome to hear. Yeah, I love how you led with empathy.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right, right, right. Yeah.
Howie Jacobson:
So, you could argue that like, if you're the parent of a seven year old, you kind of tell them what to do a lot of the time. Like at a certain , but the trajectory is like, as they get older, they can make more and more good decisions on their own. And I love how you sort of framed that in terms of, confidence in her decision making. And then also, it sounds like you tied it to values, like this is who we are as a family. Like we give things a try, like that's building a positive identity, as well. So, beautiful.
Rip Esselstyn:
Thank you. So let me ask you this. So, you wrote Proteinaholic with Garth. What do you say when somebody comes up to you and says, "Howie, how in the world do you get your protein eating a bunch of plants?" Do you have a pad answer or is it depend upon the person that's asking it?
Howie Jacobson:
Yeah. I used to have a pad answer.
Rip Esselstyn:
What was it?
Howie Jacobson:
Well, first the pad answer was, plants have protein, where do you think gorillas ... right? It was that line. Then the pad answer became, Doug Lyles. Like, I don't know, I seem to be doing all right. Or human flesh, he did that at a talk once. Like I'm recycling my own amino acids. Now I say, "What makes you ask that question? What's behind that question?"
Rip Esselstyn:
Ah, I like it.
Howie Jacobson:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Curiosity.
Howie Jacobson:
Yeah. Because as a coach, I almost never try to convince anybody of anything. I'm much more devious now, I just ask questions and get them to convince themselves.
Rip Esselstyn:
So, Peter Bregman, who you wrote this with, you guys have known each other a long time, correct?
Howie Jacobson:
Yeah, 22 years.
Rip Esselstyn:
22 years. Have you changed him to become plant-based? Is he plant-based?
Howie Jacobson:
He is largely plant-based. I mean, I need to let him talk for himself. He does talk a lot about his sugar challenge. So, we've been working on that for a while. But I would say he's plant-based, but not exclusively at this point.
Rip Esselstyn:
Is that in large part because of your relationship? Have you influenced him? Have you changed him?
Howie Jacobson:
You'd have to ask him, but I think so. I think every so often he calls and asks the protein question.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right, right.
Howie Jacobson:
It's kind of ingrained. Like there are days that I worry about protein just because of something I read. Like when the culture is in you, like that's largely a point. Like we all have thoughts and we don't have to act on those thoughts. Like I can still be full of doubts and worries and things and say, "Oh, well, it seems to be working so far." I don't have to get rid of the thoughts. I can just sort of be gentle and compassionate with them and say, "Oh, they don't have to rule my life."
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Is your whole family plant-based?
Howie Jacobson:
To a great extent. My kids are not living at home, so I don't monitor them.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Howie Jacobson:
And I don't know if you know this part of my story, but when I first went seriously plant-based with kids, it was right after reading The China Study. And I became a tyrant, I was completely inappropriate and like I did everything that this book tells you not to do. And so, I had a lot of repairing to do in the relationship. So, I'm still paying for the clumsiness.
Rip Esselstyn:
So you're doing a lot of vulnerability and I'm sorry's.
Howie Jacobson:
Yeah. And even still, like when my kids are home and they'll be sitting and eating something. And it might be like soy ice cream at four in the afternoon and I have to like compose my face. Like what does a non-judgmental face look like? Like how high should this eyebrow be? I mean, things are complicated, relationships are hard.
Rip Esselstyn:
No doubt about it. Tell me this, where can people find out more information about you, Howard Jacobson?
Howie Jacobson:
Yeah. So, I've got The Plant Yourself Podcast, which has been going for eight years now-
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow.
Howie Jacobson:
And that's at plantyourself.com. I have probably as many Esselstyns on my podcast as anybody does. Because I got Jody talking about art and healing, as well.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow. Wow.
Howie Jacobson:
As well as all the usual Esselstyn subject. And I've started a business site because I also do executive coaching and organizational coaching. It's askhowie.com. And it's partly, as I talked about, like flexing my ability to impact the world,.it's like not just working with individuals, but working with organizations and groups that are doing great stuff. So I want to offer my skillset to help them, as well.
Rip Esselstyn:
Good stuff, Howie. Well, congratulations on cranking out another very special, important book. You Can Change Other People. I read it, I loved it, I'll be implementing this in my life. And I know that my relationships will become much more positive.
Howie Jacobson:
Awesome. Well Rip, I so appreciate this opportunity to talk to you and to share this with your audience. I really appreciate your support.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh, this is a great message and all of our listeners can benefit from this. So thanks so much for bringing it out into the universe.
Howie Jacobson:
Right on.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, yeah. So, hey, I look forward to seeing you sometime soon. Will you do the send off with me? Peace.
Howie Jacobson:
Peace.
Rip Esselstyn:
Turn it around, Engine 2.
Howie Jacobson:
Engine 2.
Rip Esselstyn:
Keep it PLANTSTRONG.
Howie Jacobson:
PLANTSTRONG. Nice.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
