#128: Harvey Lewis - Living Plantstrong and Running, and Running, and Running...
Photo by: David E. Klutho, Sports Illustrated
Harvey Lewis is one of the hottest ultra-distance runners on the planet and, in 2021, was virtually unstoppable. As you'll hear today, this plant-powered school teacher from Cincinnati, Ohio is no stranger to suffering - especially on the racecourse.
Last year, among other events, he won the infamous Badwater 135 Ultra (from Death Valley to Mt. Whitney), and then just a few weeks later, he outlasted every competitor at Big Dog's Backyard Ultra where he ran for 354.16 miles four almost four days - all fueled on a PLANTSTRONG Diet.
In March 2022, he’s set to take on the hardest Ultra on the planet – the Barkley Marathons - where there have only been 15 total finishers in its entire existence.
In today's conversation with Rip, Harvey discusses:
His first marathon and the profound impact it had on his life
His motivation for becoming vegetarian at such a young age
When he connected the dots between his health and his diet
His mindset when training and racing and his relationship with pain and suffering
His connection with nature
Details from his recent races and adventures, including Badwater and Big's
How he fuels himself during these harsh events and how he varies his fueling based on the conditions and the type of the event
His training regime and how he incorpoates running into his daily life
Tips for ultra-endurance runners - how to avoid blisters, fuel properly, and manage the pain
What's next? His thoughts on the Barkley Marathons
We know if anyone can finish the Barkley, it would definitely be Harvey and we’ll be rooting for you every step of the way.
Harvey is doing the impossible, but the simplicity of his life makes it possible. In fact, Ultra Running Magazine just named Harvey one of the Top 5 Ultrarunners of 2021, but there's no question, he's definitely Number one over here at PLANTSTRONG.
Episode and PLANTSTRONG Resources:
Everything You Need to Know About the Barkley Marathons - Runner's World
Your Guide to the 7-Day PLANTSTRONG Challenge
Join the free PLANTSTRONG Community
Promo Music: Your Love by Atch
License: Creative Commons License - Attribution 3.0 Unported (CC BY 3.0)
Full Transcript from YouTube Interview
Harvey Lewis:
I get to think about at a very deep level what's important to me in the world and I get to be connected with nature. That's a powerful thing. It's something I can't really, it's like a deeper level of meditation that I cannot achieve just in my daily life. I'm going to go about my day today, I will get nowhere close to where I get when I'm running in some ultra run pushing myself like Badwater. I have this force against me, but while I'm having that force against me, it opens up streams of cognition that I don't normally have on a day-to-day basis.
Rip Esselstyn:
I'm Rip Esselstyn and welcome to the PLANTSTRONG Podcast. The mission at PLANTSTRONG is to further the advancement of all things within the plant-based movement. We advocate for the scientifically proven benefits of plant-based living and envision a world that universally understands, promotes and prescribes plants as a solution to empowering your health, enhancing your performance, restoring the environment, and becoming better guardians to the animals we share this planet with. We welcome you wherever you are on your PLANTSTRONG journey, and I hope that you enjoy the show. Hello, leafy green listeners, and welcome to another episode of the PLANTSTRONG podcast. I'm Rip Esselstyn and I've got a real doozy of a conversation for you today. This is with the hottest ultra distance runner on the planet, he was unstoppable in 2021. He is a 100% PLANTSTRONG. He hails from Cincinnati, Ohio, where he is a school teacher.
Rip Esselstyn:
He is humble. He is fast, and he is amazing. I think an appropriate way to summarize Harvey is a real life story that just happened a few weeks ago. Harvey was, he was set to run the Long Haul 100 mile race that takes place in Florida. It was January 15th, of 2022. The only hiccup is that he was stuck in Cincinnati the night before, every flight was canceled and he had absolutely no way of getting there by plane. His only option was to hop into his car, and attempt to drive all during the night in hopes of making it to the starting line before the gun went off at 8:00 AM. Guess what, that's exactly what he did. He made it to the starting line with about 40 minutes to spare, took a short nap, lined up and then proceeded to win the entire race in just over 16 hours.
Rip Esselstyn:
That my green leafy friends is Harvey Lewis in a nutshell. He's an absolute legend of an ultra distance runner, a gem of a human and an inspiration for any of us who are seeking to find joy and passion while in the midst of a lot of pain and suffering. Speaking of suffering, Harvey knows how to suffer, especially on the race course and just last year in 2021, he won the famous Badwater 135 Ultra. This is a 135 mile race from Death Valley to Mount Whitney. It goes over three different mountain passes, and then just a few weeks later, he outlasted every competitor at Big Dog's Backyard Ultra, Last Person Standing race where he ran 354.16 miles, and it took him almost four days, all fueled on a PLANTSTRONG diet. In March of this year, he is ready to tackle the hardest ultra on the planet.
Rip Esselstyn:
It's the Barkley Marathon where believe it or not, there's only been 15 total finishers in its entire existence. I think that if anybody can finish, I would bet that Harvey has a pretty good chance, and I'll be rooting for you every single step of the way. Speaking of, I want to invite you to lace up your own shoes, head out the door, put in those AirPods and enjoy this super conversation with the incredibly humble and amazing Harvey Lewis. Now, before you go, I'd like to quickly share that we are offering a free two-week membership into our most powerful tool, the PLANTSTRONG Meal Planner, to really help everyone stick to those New Year's resolutions. The meal planner has all our community favorite recipes, an adaptive and mobile grocery list and support from experts seven days a week.
Rip Esselstyn:
Simply visit mealplanner.plantstrong.com and use the code PS2022 to redeem a free two-week membership. Now, take it away, Harvey. I cannot wait to dive into this conversation with you and really talk about two of your big passions and loves that are so to me, inextricably intertwined and that is basically your love of running and your love of plant-based nutrition/food. I'd love to just out of the gates ask you, how did you get into plant-based nutrition? Obviously, that probably came after you started, you became a runner.
Harvey Lewis:
Right.
Rip Esselstyn:
What was your impetus for fueling yourself with plants?
Harvey Lewis:
Well, I had quite a few things that hit me with this, and I guess going back on the journey, it really started back in high school because in my health class, we watched this video that involved the slaughtering of animals-
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Harvey Lewis:
... and I'm really not sure why they showed the video at the time, but it definitely impacted me. I was just like, just really, just, I guess, disturbed by the images I saw. I decided I want to be vegetarian, but it only lasted for about three hours or whatever it was until I had lunch, because I had no idea where to begin. Back in high school, there was not a vegetarian option. Back in 1993, there was not even, I didn't know any other students who were vegetarian.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Harvey Lewis:
I ended up, a few years after that my mother end up having a stroke and she was only 54, a nurse. It made me be much more retrospective on what we had been eating and what led up to that stroke and a large part of it was our American diet that we were accustomed to. That led me down the path of saying, I need to really look at this deeper and I started reading books in transitioning and about the same time I discovered ultras. In a matter of maybe five or six months, I went from the traditional diet, American diet to eating vegetarian, and then to total vegan while I was in college. I noticed a tremendous change in my abilities, day and night. I went from being a back in a pack runner to being much more energetic and there was a transition.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow. Where did you go to college?
Harvey Lewis:
I went to college, Bowling Green my first year and then I transferred to the University of Minnesota. I had an untraditional college experience in the fact that I was a young parent and also I worked during the day. It was a busy lifestyle and on the weekends, but it definitely was a revolutionary time in my experience, in my life experience that is to go through those transitions, discovering ultras and also changing my nutrition, it had incredible impacts.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. I love the fact that you were able to find plant-based nutrition to supplement and enhance your running. Your running, I've obviously read up on your story, but I think it's fascinating that you didn't really get into running until high school, right? Just on a whim, you decided to run the, was it the Cleveland Marathon?
Harvey Lewis:
Yeah. Yeah. Actually, I did start running in middle school, right about seventh to eighth grade, that transition, I did track, but I jumped into the Cleveland Marathon when I was 15 as a freshman. My coaches, they all said, basically, you don't want to do it. The other kids on my team were like, there's no way you can do it. I love, if someone says you can't do something-
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Harvey Lewis:
... it's the greatest motivation to actually do it. I went out, I didn't know what I was doing. I thought I could run eight minute miles because I could do an eight minute mile for eight miles, but that's the furthest I'd ever run. Of course, when I got to mile 10, 11, I was dying and I ended up running and walking the rest of the race and it seemed like I was crossing the Sahara desert or something. I mean, the difficulty for a 15 year old that has limited experience. I used to be, I was really chunk prior to this whole running experience. But getting to the finish line was a breakthrough moment in my life and just opened up so many other portals.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. As a 15 year old that maybe didn't have that much confidence in life, tell me how that impacted you in other portals of your existence and how it fed those.
Harvey Lewis:
Definitely. Up until that time, I was more of a D, C student with a couple of F's. After having that experience, it just awoken me to the potential of just determination. If you are so determined for something, just about anything is possible. That was a new insight for me, because up to that point, I really didn't have the confidence that I could do well in school. That was part of my problem, so I didn't really give it my full effort because I didn't want to not succeed or I didn't think I could do it.
Harvey Lewis:
I just learned really with everything, it's a matter of how much pressure or effort you're willing to give to make it happen in a lot of cases. That was one of the biggest impacts on me and my grades changed. I had a idea I wanted to go to college, but after that I really did so much better in school and earned like A's and B's versus D's and it happened really fast, literally after doing that marathon, the next school year-
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow.
Harvey Lewis:
... that marathon was the end of that school year, next school year things were just totally different.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. That's really, to me that's, that is spectacular what achieving something that maybe you didn't think you could do, like finishing that marathon when you were 15, the impact that had on really a lot of future decisions in your life and the path that you're on now probably would've never happened without you doing that Cleveland Marathon.
Harvey Lewis:
Yeah. Absolutely not.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Yeah. Can you remember your time in that marathon?
Harvey Lewis:
Yeah. I think it was somewhere, it was definitely over five hours and I think it was somewhere like five hours and seven minutes, eight minutes somewhere around that. Actually, it's like every year I would repeat the same process and I literally, it took me I think, five years to finally break five hours in the marathon. It was a long time. Finally, so finally I did break the five hours and then took me a while to get, not too long, because then after, I changed over my nutrition-
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Harvey Lewis:
... at age 20, then I really improved dramatically. I think I went to maybe under three hours and 30 minutes, something like that.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Yeah. Have you been then vegetarian/vegan now for 24 years or something like that?
Harvey Lewis:
Yeah. I've been vegetarian for 25 years and after college, I've always been, as much passion as I have for running and for food, I have for travel.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh, wow.
Harvey Lewis:
I would do a lot of traveling. I did this journey through Latin America, through 17 countries, just taking the public buses. In that journey, I ended up just going back to eating vegetarian, just mainly out of convenience because I wasn't making my own food and back in the late 90s, there were just not that many options sometimes in these travels and places. Now I'm much more, I have more discipline about it and more knowledge about it and there's more availability of things.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Harvey Lewis:
I ended up being vegetarian up until five years ago and then in 2016, I said, changed back to eating just plant-base, all-vegan. That's remarkable to me because my strongest running years of my life have actually been the last five years since I've gone back to eating vegan. I don't really have a regret, but if I were to have a regret in life is just that I should have just maintained eating all-vegan and worked through, I was being, I could've given more effort and discipline and learned options. I'm grateful now to just be in a place now where I have that knowledge and I've been able to apply it to my running in my life and I mean, it's just incredible that I can perform now 25 years later at the best of my running ever. It's just remarkable to me and a big part of that is the plant-based foods because it helps me to rejuvenate and recover so rapidly. I mean, it's a wild thing.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. What are you, are you 44 now?
Harvey Lewis:
I'm 45.
Rip Esselstyn:
45. Okay. 45, and you're really crushing it in the ultra endurance running world. Would you say that 2021 has been your best year to date?
Harvey Lewis:
Yeah. I would say it's been my best year to date. This year has been just crazy. Every year I write down goals and I tend to have a few running goals and every one of my running goals I achieved. I usually dream pretty big, so it doesn't normally happen that way, but it was pretty amazing and exciting.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. I'll say so. Officially, how long would you say that you've been running ultra distance runs?
Harvey Lewis:
Since...
Rip Esselstyn:
A decade or more?
Harvey Lewis:
25 years.
Rip Esselstyn:
You've been, 25 years. Okay. All right.
Harvey Lewis:
Yeah. I've been running ultras for 25 years.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay. What's your definition of an ultra?
Harvey Lewis:
An ultra is any distance further than a marathon.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay.
Harvey Lewis:
My first experience with a ultra was back in 1996, I did the FANS 24 hour race. It's, you basically repeat loops on a lake and just, it's an endurance event where you see who can, and how far you can go in 24 hours. I did like 81.25 miles and my furthest 24 hour race was actually back in 2019 since I've been vegan. It was a world championship in France, I ran 160.609 miles. I almost doubled-
Rip Esselstyn:
Yes.
Harvey Lewis:
... my original distance. One of my goals in life is to eventually double that distance I ran the first time, run 162.5 miles.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right.
Harvey Lewis:
Eventually I have to do that.
Rip Esselstyn:
What pace is 160 miles in 24 hours, do you know?
Harvey Lewis:
Yeah. It's slightly, 160 miles is right at a nine minute pace. Running, it's right under, it's eight minutes and 54 seconds or something like that.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Harvey Lewis:
You have to run slightly faster than that, calculating in your restroom stops and stretching once every hour and a half for 40 seconds.
Rip Esselstyn:
What's remarkable to me is that you've been doing ultras for 25 years and at the age of 45, you're now maybe, I don't know if stronger is the right word, maybe it's, you're smarter and you know your body so well. I would imagine that ultras require just such a combination of pacing, nutrition, hydration, your crew, all those things. I mean, would you say that you've totally got that dialed in now or is it just, is it everything that now you just have, you've figured out how to link everything together?
Harvey Lewis:
Yeah. You hit it really well because there are those key ingredients and the ones you listed, and then you could come up with another six or seven that are really pivotal and it is the knowledge about those items. Also, the nutrition really helps too. I mean, and then putting it all together. It's pretty amazing that you can continuously grow across so many years in a sport. I'd say definitely now I'm stronger than I was for sure when I was 20, no doubt about it. Now I can even, there's certain things you can continuously develop.
Harvey Lewis:
Right now I'm training for the Barkley race. I've been doing more climbing than I've ever done outside of going for the Appalachian Trail record. I mean, I noticed even on my run to work this morning, going up some hills, I can go up them faster than I've ever in my whole life. It's like, I mean, I ran up the stairs this morning to my classroom, I'm on the fourth floor and I'm like, God, I can't believe I could do that. Not even taking a deep breath or anything. It's just like, [quick sound effect] right up the stairs.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow.
Harvey Lewis:
But it's wild how you can impact your body, I mean, through training, through the things you need. The key ingredients from the food, your sleep, nourishing your mind. There are so many things that you can impact yourself and continuously grow in. It's kind of fun.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Yeah. You've been, it sounds like you've been having a lot of fun for a lot of years, which to me, I think that a lot of our people listening, a little bit, including myself are like, oh my God, I mean, it sounds so absolutely punishing. It sounds sadomasochistic, whatever that term is. It doesn't sound fun. To me, it sounds borderline miserable and I think about what you've accomplished this year between winning the Badwater 135, Big Dog's Backyard, you went for the Appalachian Trail record and what happened there? I don't even know. What did you do there?
Harvey Lewis:
Yeah. That was actually 2018.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay.
Harvey Lewis:
Yeah. Yeah. I was going for the record, I finished with the eighth fastest time.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay. Okay.
Harvey Lewis:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, that's still pretty remarkable. But I just know from being a professional triathlete back in the day and when I would do my long 100 mile rides and 10 mile runs, I'd be a little bit gasped for a couple days.
Harvey Lewis:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
The fact that you won Badwater, and then what, a month later you went and you did Big Dog's Backyard, 356 miles in 80 something hours. I mean, wow. I just can't imagine-
Harvey Lewis:
Well, it was wild. We actually had, I had two races in between Badwater and Big's. What happened was I did Badwater in July, and then there was a four or four week, maybe five week and I had a 24 hour race in Minnesota, the original one I did 25 years ago. Then after that, I did the Superior 100 race about 13 days later and that was a good one too. They had 20,000 feet of elevation gain. Both those races, it helped with preparation for Big's. Then Big's was five weeks after the Superior 100. There was a little bit of a, there was a real tight fit between the Superior 100 and the 24 hour race, but a little bit more time, not a lot of time.
Harvey Lewis:
That's where it really helped with my nutrition because it's unusual to have something so tough, then five weeks later, you have another tough and it can be a little bit too close together. But I wasn't sure if I was going to be able to pull it off, but it came together, which was amazing. It's a good question you ask and it can sound really masochistic and really number one is to find whatever's fun for you. I mean, it might be really fun to just go out and hike or go do a half a marathon and that's fantastic.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Harvey Lewis:
But for me, there's a couple of things that, it involves psychology and not something I'm following in a formal sense. I don't have a coach, but I've just learned this over the years. I always do something, it's like Pavlov and with psychology like a reward system. That's a big deal. If I do some really tough workout this last, like on Saturday and Sunday, I did some really tough workout and so you got to have some amazing dinner-
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Harvey Lewis:
... or something you treat yourself to. You have something that you have lined up. For example, I'm doing Barkley in March and basically I'm preparing to do a trip to the Cypress after Barkley. It's either I survive or I don't survive at Barkley, but I'm going to have the reward of going to Cypress following Barkley. So-
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. So, so-
Harvey Lewis:
It helps to have that positive association, so then you make a positive mental association with it, it's not just discomfort, you have a reward as well.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. But do you think over the last 25 years, you've come to really relish that discomfort and just pushing yourself to the point of just total exhaustion? Is that something you feel like you need now?
Harvey Lewis:
Yeah. I do like that actually. I really do. It's like the buffet always tastes amazing after you've been in the wilderness camping for a week.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Harvey Lewis:
It's like having some level of lows creates even larger highs. Having these moments, they're very, there's a lot of things I get from them. I get reflection on life. I get to think about, at a very deep level what's important to me in the world and I get to be connected with nature. That's a powerful thing. It's something I can't really, it's like a deeper level of meditation that I cannot achieve just in my daily life. I'm going to go about my day today, I will get nowhere close to where I get when I'm running in some ultra run pushing myself, like Badwater.
Harvey Lewis:
I have this force against me, but while I'm having that force against me, it opens up streams of cognition that I don't normally have on a day-to-day basis. It really opens up my thinking sometimes. I mean, it's not like I'm always in that deep level of thinking at every moment during the race, but it may be only moments, fleeting moments during that race, but it is, so there's something special about that, that I can't exactly pinpoint and express entirely, but there's something really special about that incredible challenge. Then also, when you manage to achieve what your goal was, whether that is to finish or-
Harvey Lewis:
... to achieve what your goal was, whether that is to finish or to finish at a faster pace or to win the race or whatever it may be, it's an incredible to feel that.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, well listen, I get exactly what you're talking about. I have never done ultras, but being an athlete my whole life and wanting to be in tune with my body and being out in nature and just everything that comes with that, there's something very powerful there for sure. And you've drawn upon it in a big, powerful way. I got a jillion questions for you, so first what is Barkleys? I don't know what Barkleys is.
Harvey Lewis:
You haven't heard of Barkley?
Rip Esselstyn:
Uh-uh (negative).
Harvey Lewis:
No, I can't believe it. Oh I see. Well, it is a race run by the infamous Lazarus Lake. It happens in Frozen Head State Park, and it is a race with 40 runners. Basically, there's a great couple documentaries that are out now and you can just Google Barkley Marathon, you'll see those. It's a somewhat secretive race and it has a secretive process for the application to get in. It's nuts. Basically, it's the hardest trail race in the world, because they've only had 15 finishers since 1985.
Rip Esselstyn:
What?
Harvey Lewis:
Yeah, it's nuts, you have to cover a... Laz has said it's 20 mile loops and you do 100 miles, but really it's probably 135 miles, or 130 miles. Then you have to cover 120 to 127,000 feet of elevation change in 60 hours. It's off course, you're only on a trail a fraction of the time. The rest of the time, you have to figure out your own coordinates based on the map that Laz gives everyone a copy of the night before. It's wet oftentimes, or foggy and you're navigating at nighttime. You have to find the books. There's 13 books in the woods and you have to find them based on Laz's, sometimes, cryptic instructions.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow.
Harvey Lewis:
And you have a 60 minute time limit, 60 hour time limit, so it's very difficult. Even if you have many different skills, it's a whole new set of skills that I have to develop. I have to work on navigation, navigation at nighttime, and when it's foggy, I have to figure out the mapping, where to go. It's confusing, you have to do this while you're really tired. If I survive two or three or four laps, then I'll be doing this after going for two days straight, with just maybe a five minute nap a couple times.
Harvey Lewis:
It is really tough because you could make one or two errors, and it could cost you the whole race, so just a navigational error. You're sleepy and you're running down the embankment, it's off trail, so you're running as fast as you can sometimes, that is nuts. And you hit a stub, or something like that, and you fall and break something and you can be out of the race.
Rip Esselstyn:
Totally cool.
Harvey Lewis:
You really have so many things you have to be mastering at the same time and extremely focused.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, I can see why that's the next challenge on your list, for sure. Have you ever done it before?
Harvey Lewis:
No, I haven't actually. It was a prize for winning the Big's Backyard.
Rip Esselstyn:
Really?
Harvey Lewis:
For winning Big's, the winner of Big's, they get an entry into the Barkley race, because it is a very difficult to get into that race now.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow. I would think with your credentials, you'd be one of the top 40 that would get in just by saying, "Hey, I'd like to do this race."
Harvey Lewis:
No, you have to... I mean, you can get on the wait list perhaps, if you are someone who's really accomplished, but it could still take you three or four years to get into the race. Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Is it televised or anything like that? Or is there a documentary guy?
Harvey Lewis:
No.
Rip Esselstyn:
No.
Harvey Lewis:
It's pretty much the most old school fashioned race you can dream up . And Laz is a character and all the people associated, but there is... I mean, it will have some updates. The internet's not very good there. The reception's not good.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right, right. Wow. That almost sounds like when I first did the Escape From Alcatraz Triathlon in 1989, it was old school and it's since become very commercialized.
Harvey Lewis:
Right.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Yeah. It's completely changed.
Harvey Lewis:
That would be fun.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh, yeah. That was fun. The run, back when I did that the first two years, was the Double Dipsea, from Muir Woods to Stinson Beach and back, it was 15 mile or seven and a half each way, which was cool.
Harvey Lewis:
That would be neat. Did you do it without a wetsuit?
Rip Esselstyn:
No. No, no, no. It was 51 degrees, I wore a wetsuit.
Harvey Lewis:
Ah no, it is cold.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh yeah. Oh, that's cold. That's cold. Especially for a mile and a half, yeah.
Harvey Lewis:
Right.
Rip Esselstyn:
So tell me this. Out of all the races you've done, from Marathon des, how do you pronounce it, Sables, Sables?
Harvey Lewis:
Yeah. Marathon des Sables.
Rip Esselstyn:
Marathon des Sables. Badwater. Ultra Gobi, Arrowhead. What was the most difficult?
Harvey Lewis:
Yeah. That's a great question, but I'm going to give you-
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Harvey Lewis:
... a bad answer, I guess, because I think that they're all really difficult races, and it really depends on the person as well, because some people really love warm weather. If they do, Badwater might not be the toughest race for them, but that person may really struggle in the Arrowhead 135, that's a really cold race in Northern Minnesota and you have to pull a sled. That was fun to do.
Harvey Lewis:
I would say, for me, I remember just tough elements of each of the races, but the Gobi Trail Ultra could be one of the toughest, because that was in China, and there was no course markings. Now that I'm preparing for Barkley, it doesn't seem as bad. I would say that, even though I haven't run Barkley yet, I would say Barkley is probably going to be the... It's just purely going to be the toughest because so few people finish. It's only 15 people have finished that race.
Harvey Lewis:
I mean, if you only make it one or two loops at Barkley, that may not be physically as tough of course as Badwater, but it's so tough in terms of just finishing. Just completing that race, being out there on your own, in the middle of the wilderness, there's no GPS tracker on your back. You have no idea you where you are. You got to find your way back.
Rip Esselstyn:
Man. Yeah.
Harvey Lewis:
Yeah, but I do love the adventure of it and there's so many challenging races. I mean, you could even say a mile race is a very challenging race because you feel that pain for a minute, or whatever it is, until you cross the finish line at last 20%, 30% of your race. That can be really tough.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. You did Big Dog's Backyard recently and you went, what? 354 miles?
Harvey Lewis:
Four miles.
Rip Esselstyn:
54.16 miles.
Harvey Lewis:
167.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yes. Is the reason you did so much, was there somebody else that was pushing you to where, that's how many miles you had to do to win the event?
Harvey Lewis:
Yeah, so that's a whole nother format with ultras. There's all these little specializations you could get into, and backyard ultras have exploded. They're now in 60 some countries, and there's been over 13,000 people run one. So with Big's, you have to do a 4.167 mile loop every hour, and so this amounts to 100 miles every 24 hours. It's 11 hours on the trail, and 13 hours on the road. So it doesn't give a advantage to someone who's a really strong trail runner, but not a very strong road runner, or vice versa. You have to be versatile.
Harvey Lewis:
So with that race, it comes down to the final two runners. Whoever the assist, that we call it the assist, the person who is the second to last person to go out, and once they go out, the final runners only allowed to run one more loop.
Harvey Lewis:
If they don't make that final loop, then no one wins the race and everyone's DNF.
Rip Esselstyn:
What?
Harvey Lewis:
Yeah, it's wild. So yeah, there wasn't a lot of push this year. We had never been over 300 miles at Laz's property. Laz has a much more technical force than lot of the other races in the world, and it has a good amount of elevation. So there was a Japanese runner [ Mori Roy 00:29:04]. He was very competitive, as well as the assist, Chris Roberts. They both were really focused. They did not want to give up.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, either did you.
Harvey Lewis:
I thought the race was going to go on forever. We'd still be out there running right now. But I told Laz, I said, "I think that no one's going to quit here. No one's going to submit Laz". He said, "Eventually it'll happen." So, it did.
Harvey Lewis:
But we got into a really strong mode, after it seemed like once we got up to 300 miles, we even had more energy at times than we had at the beginning of the race. So Mori and I, we started really just hammering each other. We would start running up the hills that we were walking in day one, and Chris had gotten a bit of an injury in the second night, but miraculously, he came back to life on the third day, or I mean the... Was it the fourth day? Fourth day.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Harvey Lewis:
The fourth day, he came back to life on the fourth day, and is amazing. He was running better the fourth day than he was earlier, so it's interesting how the people can push through these barriers that you think that you can't make it through, and it's remarkable how far you can go. A lot of it is the mind, some of it is the body, but a lot of is the mind.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, so did you have a strategy going into Big's as far as, "Okay, it's a four mile loop. Do I want to go 40 minutes or 45, so I get 15 minutes rest and I'm not going harder than I need to?" I mean, what was your strategy?
Harvey Lewis:
Yeah, I had a lot of strategies and definitely when it came to pacing, that was just to remain relaxed and having fun with what I was doing. So that was a really important element, is staying relaxed. In order to do that, I had to run. I ended up running at that particular race course about a 53, 54 second loop on the trail. And on the road, I think it was around 48 minutes and I was pretty consistent. I probably came within a minute every single time, minus a couple.
Rip Esselstyn:
So you're getting a seven minutes off-road, seven minutes rest, in around 12 when you're running on the road?
Harvey Lewis:
Yeah, and that was what fit me. It's different for everyone, and that worked for me on that particular course. But if it was a different course, I would have a different pacing element and it just settled well with me. But I also like to throw curve balls and mess with the other people, so I probably... If it was down to the last few days I might, the last day I may, or later in the race, I may do different things as well.
Rip Esselstyn:
Huh. So are you able to... I mean, you were going for over three days, so into your fourth day, I don't think it's, I mean, I'm obviously could be wrong, humanly possible to go that long without sleep. Are you taking three five minute cat naps, and does somebody have to make sure you get up in time?
Harvey Lewis:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
What are you doing?
Harvey Lewis:
Yeah, I was really concerned about the sleep. I think going into Big's, I was most concerned about the sleep. The year prior, I was the assist to Courtney Dauwalter, and she's a phenomenal runner. Great person, fun to run with, but I noticed that the sleep element was probably impacting me more the year before, or at least the psychology around the sleep element.
Harvey Lewis:
I did a lot of reading on sleep, and actually the record for sleep deprivation is really long. So I was like, "Well," because I was thinking the same thing as you. And going back into the sixties, people were experimenting with sleep deprivation. They got 11, 12 days, more than that. It's not recommended.
Rip Esselstyn:
No, it's not. No.
Harvey Lewis:
So that told me that, yeah, we can survive. I didn't know the people that did that sleep deprivation study, they did not do that under physical distress. Just getting those little cat naps, three to five minutes, it was powerful, and I'd aim to do that every hour in the nighttime. But to be honest with you, I'm not really sure how much I actually fell asleep. Honestly, just laying there with your eyes shut has a impact on the human body.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Are you lying there with your eyes shut, with your feet up in the air to try and get-
Harvey Lewis:
Yeah, that would be good. I didn't have them too elevated. I was in a cot, but elevating your feet is always a great idea, whether it's training or during a race, if you can. I actually took my shoes off every lap. Even just for that four or five minutes, I found... I hadn't done that previous years, but taking my shoes off actually helped my body to rest and get to that place where I could fall sleep easier.
Rip Esselstyn:
What are you doing for nutrition, for almost four days?
Harvey Lewis:
So the nutrition is, to eat as many calories as humanly possible. That is the number one thing. It doesn't matter so much about whether they're carbohydrates or proteins, although it would be better to get more complex carbohydrates and simple sugars when you're thinking about the longevity of it. I wouldn't day one, just rely solely on gels and things like that. Actually getting soups and vegan mac and cheese, and sandwiches with avocados and lentils.
Harvey Lewis:
I mean, I would eat a lot of unhealthy things, if you were at eat them on a daily basis, like chips, but you just look at how many calories potato chips have. I would also have squeezable fruits, dried fruits, just a lot of variety. Burritos. I drank a lot of coconut water and Tailwind, and there wasn't just one specific thing. Mashed potatoes, vegan mashed potatoes are great, vegetable broth, mixed together. Yes, so, so good.
Harvey Lewis:
Yeah. But I would eat anything that my crew chief Jud would provide. We would try to eat something that was more solid like that at least every couple hours, because I could eat snacks, like chips or fruits and things like that, but to get something that's warm and more hearty, that was better for me to get every two or three hours.
Rip Esselstyn:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Would you say that your nutrition strategy for Big Dog's Backyard was different than Badwater or Arrowhead?
Harvey Lewis:
Oh yeah. Yeah, definitely. I would say that it, I think, my nutrition was the best of all the runners there. It was. I mean, I think it was amongst the best, and that's why I survived the longest, because I was able to eat. I think I pretty much out ate everybody. I mean, I'm not trying to brag here, but I think I pretty much out ate everybody, in terms of the calories and the content.
Harvey Lewis:
I mean, I observed everyone else, and I think a lot of people were trying to do the same, but across the whole duration of 85 hours, I think that I ate a small city of food, and it really helped me to digest that food. I didn't get sick at all. That whole race, I didn't get sick at all, eating all that food. I mean I probably, I ate a unbelievable number of calories, but that helped me to survive and to feel pretty good at the end of the race, because I was able to eat like that. It matters.
Harvey Lewis:
Now, Badwater, I focused, it's so hot, it's over 120 degrees, so it's hard to eat anything that is a solid format. So I could have, for sure Tailwind and gels and fruit, but it's difficult. Mashed potatoes and gravy, anything I would eat would have to be easy to dissolve in Badwater. Sometimes you can't eat larger portions, so at Big's, I had these muffins from Abe's or something like that.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, yeah.
Harvey Lewis:
Abe's muffins. I mean, I ate half of a package of that, at one time. Six of them, I think that's 700 calories or something like that, at one time.
Rip Esselstyn:
More than that. More than that.
Harvey Lewis:
Yeah, it's a lot. It's a lot of calories. I would never do that in Badwater. I might eat one of them at a time in Badwater and I probably only could eat two, and I'd have to rotate, so diversity also matters. A lot of people can't handle diversity. They really have four things they can eat, or it messes with their mind, or it's just that they have a negative association with it.
Harvey Lewis:
But for me, I actually had, probably at Big's, 28 items. I was eating 28 different things, and in Badwater, I have Tailwind is my number one drink, but I have 12 or 15 different drinks. It sounds crazy, but it works for me, and I never drink water. I only drink drinks with calories because I'm trying to energize myself along the endurance event.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow. When you're drinking drinks that aren't just water, are you worried at all about the percentage of how diluted it is, so it doesn't Jack with your stomach and you can absorb it all properly, and you don't-
Harvey Lewis:
Yeah. The only thing I'm worried about is how much it has in terms of electrolytes. At Big's, I wouldn't be quite as worried because it's not so high, but in Badwater, I would want it to be at least half and half. Half of my drinks have to have electrolytes. If I'm relying only on Coca-Cola and Dr. Pepper and Root beer, those drinks don't have any electrolytes in them. So if I only drink those drinks, eventually my engine would crash.
Rip Esselstyn:
Those are good healthy things.
Harvey Lewis:
And so at Badwater, my team knows that I have to have half of my drinks roughly estimated to be electrolyte drinks, like Tailwind. Or even coconut water has some electrolytes in it, but half of my drinks have to have electrolytes. I can't just rely on only... And at Big's it also factors in.
Harvey Lewis:
But in terms of dilution, I like drinks to be sweet and strong, so I don't like drinks that are half water and more watered down. I don't like that so much. It's something that probably people have to adjust into, and I've trained myself to do that over years. I could literally eat a giant burrito from Chipotle and a giant thing of Tailwind, and then just go do a 5k as fast as humanly possible, and I probably won't get sick. I won't. In an Ultra, I would definitely not get sick. Or even running a 5k as fast as I humanly can, after eating that stuff, I don't get sick. But I've trained myself with that. That's one of the 12 or 15 pillars of Ultra running, the ingredients that you have to train yourself on, and it's like condition yourself to be able to absorb nutrition is huge.
Rip Esselstyn:
So have you always... I mean, at what point were you like, "You know what? I'm pretty good at this, and I like winning, and I'm a fierce competitor?" I mean, is that something that you just grew into, or has it always been part of who you are?
Harvey Lewis:
I have both sides, because with the sport, I absolutely admire anyone that's willing to go out there and finish in the back of the pack, because that's amazing. I mean, I was that person. I did that for years, so I absolutely admire that so much. So to me, it's participating in our sport is the number one thing. My number one goal, in every race, is always to finish a race, even if that means finishing last. If I ever finish a race last, that might be the race that is most meaningful to me because it took the most conviction to get there to finish last.
Harvey Lewis:
But there was a bit of a transition, I'd say. It happened after I broke my neck. So I broke my neck in 2004, and that really also impacted my mindset. It just gave me a higher level of drive to want to go out and chase after my best, and I love the competitive element. So races like Badwater, and at Big's especially, where you have all these runners just coming together. It's really fun to go out there and to come as an underdog and to achieve higher than you thought you ever could achieve before.
Rip Esselstyn:
How did you break your neck?
Harvey Lewis:
It was a bad car wreck. There was a car that spun out in front of me and I went off the road to avoid hitting them. My car rolled over multiple times, and then I didn't know my neck was broken. I managed to climb out of the vehicle. It took me some effort, because I couldn't break the very easily. I ended up getting to a hospital and they thought everything was fine at first, because I was calm and comfortable, but then they did the x-rays and it turned out that I had broke my fourth and fifth vertebrae, so I have surgery.
Harvey Lewis:
I had a extra bone added and some titanium, and it's amazing the world we live in today, where we can have some sort of medical treatment like that, that can enable us to continue on. So I mean, I was looking at it for a time, the night of the accident, where maybe I could die, or I could be paralyzed forever. And so to have the opportunity to still run and enjoy life, with being able to move, was something that's indescribable. So I just can't give up that opportunity.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Feel how fortunate you were to make it through that.
Harvey Lewis:
Yeah. Yeah. So it was such a good thing I broke my neck.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Harvey Lewis:
Oh it definitely... Not that I wish to go out and break anything else right now, but breaking my neck was a really powerful experience to have life almost taken from you and then have another lease on life is just a super powerful thing that I, still I may take for granted today, but just when I think about that, it just makes me want to live life to the fullest.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, so you mentioned, you have such admiration for anyone that toes the starting line at any of these events and you really admire, for example, the people that come in last. Correct me if I'm wrong, you've done Badwater 10 times, is that correct?
Harvey Lewis:
Yeah. Yeah, 10 times.
Rip Esselstyn:
10 times, and you had one year where something happened after a couple miles and you what? You walked the last 85, 90 miles, is that right?
Harvey Lewis:
Yes. Yeah, actually that was the year of the Appalachian Trail. My father and I, we set out on this journey, 2190 miles, and I had a little timeframe to work with because I teach high school. It goes until the end of May. And I knew Badwater... I've got tradition of going out there and making annual pilgrimage, running Badwater around mid-July. I had a little time to work from, finish Appalachian Trail with five days before that, the Badwater race.
Harvey Lewis:
I wasn't really sure if I'd be able to finish Badwater, because that AT beat me up so bad. I mean, imagine falling over a hundred times, covering 43 miles a day, you're basically cover the elevation of Everest every three days.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow.
Harvey Lewis:
It just beats you up so badly. It took me about a year to get fully back to a hundred percent. But, one year, actually one year ... hard at. But the Badwater race, was five days after me finishing that, so I had to drive home with our work truck, fly out west, get all arrangements together. During this time I'm only running one mile a day to keep my run streak alive, and when I'd run that one mile, I'd be like...
Harvey Lewis:
To keep my run streak alive. And when I'd run that one mile, I'd be like, man, I'm tired. This is one mile. I'm like, I don't know how I'm going to do 135 miles. So getting to the race, I did run the first, I think, about 42 miles. Which, I was surprised that it felt as good as it did. Although once I got to mile 41/42, I felt this pull on my groin, and I thought I was going to break. So, I had to walk the whole rest of the way. About 93 miles. And it was a unique experience. I hadn't run or walked that far, in my whole life. But I finished, and that was really the best experience, to just finish. I wasn't the last runner, but just finishing was something special, for sure.
Rip Esselstyn:
What year was that?
Harvey Lewis:
That was 2018.
Rip Esselstyn:
18. So, you won it in 2014. You won it in 2021. You got a, what? Six year, seven year gap between wins there.
Harvey Lewis:
Yes.
Rip Esselstyn:
That's wild. And there's probably so much that can happen over those 135 miles, that sets you up for that win, or your second or third. And you've got to probably, have just a great race. And everybody else's race probably has to maybe, not be perfect.
Harvey Lewis:
Yeah. It was wild all right. It was wild. And I mean really, Badwater is tough to have a perfect race in that race. I mean, there's a lot of different elements that are pushed on you. I mean, it's 120 degrees. So this last year, it was a dream of mine. One of my goals I had wrote out at the start of the year, to win Badwater and to win Big's. And it was incredible to have it happen.
Harvey Lewis:
I mean, a large part was, my team. Also, I had an amazing team.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Harvey Lewis:
That helped and supported me out there, as crew members. And we'd take on the energy of our team members. It's really important to have that positive energy. Yeah, it's something super strong. Another one of those categories, that helps to push you upward.
Rip Esselstyn:
And just for the listeners that don't really know, Badwaters, you start in Death Valley, right?
Harvey Lewis:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
And you climb over 17,000 feet. And you go over, what? Three mountain passes. You finish on Mount Whitney. Wow. Incredible. And 120 degrees.
Harvey Lewis:
It's a beautiful place. That's why I like returning. I like to do a few new races every year.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Harvey Lewis:
I also like to do a few of the races I repeat, every year. And Badwater is one I plan to do, until I can no longer run. I plan do it forever. So, I'm not planning to stop that anytime soon. And it was a really wild experience this year. On the second mountain... well, we'll go back. The first 40 miles, were very windy this year. And it was a strong headwind. I was in second place, all throughout the first half the race. But, the leader was continuously moving ahead of me. So I think, he was at about three minutes ahead of me. On the second mountain, I felt terrible. And I got to the next checkpoint, and I saw that the leader actually didn't gain on me, even though I was going much slower than I typically go.
Harvey Lewis:
It actually motivated me because I knew that he's also struggling.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Harvey Lewis:
So I was able to really turn it around mentally, and chase him down. But it was wild to... the race did not happen with me feeling amazing the whole way. I actually felt rough, myself. So to have a situation where you're not feeling your best, but then you can pull it together, that made it even sweeter. To have the finish that we did, and to have adversity in the midst of it. Where you have to really pull it together mentally, and also pull things back together, even though you're not feeling your strongest. That's what made it even more special.
Rip Esselstyn:
All right. We'll get back to Harvey, in a sec. But first, I'd like to take a minute to read an email from one of our community members who has found success with the power of plants. This letter is from Bud. Rip, I wanted to say, thanks. Thanks for helping me save my own life, and lose 50 pounds. Today marks three years of 100% plant-based eating, with fantastic results.
Rip Esselstyn:
My wife and I saw you talk at the Whole Foods in Naples, Florida, in January 2019. And since then, both of us have been 100% plant-based. I had a slightly high cardiac calcium score, and wanted to do something about it. This lifestyle has lowered all my blood levels enough, to where I don't have to take a Statin anymore. I've also lost 35 pounds in the last 18 months, and have been able to keep it off ever since. Thank you. You are really providing a needed service.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well Bud, I want to thank you for sharing your success. Because your ongoing success and health, is the real service and the best way of paying it forward, for you and for your family. So, thank you for sharing. And don't forget, anyone can join our free community at community.plantstrong.com, where inspiration awaits. Speaking of inspiration, let's get back to Harvey Lewis.
Rip Esselstyn:
So, you've done Badwaters, 10 years. Did you ever compete against Goggins, or Scott?
Harvey Lewis:
Yeah. Scott Jurek, he actually did two years of Badwater.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Harvey Lewis:
And he actually won both those years, as well. But that was back in 2006 and 2007, I believe.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay.
Harvey Lewis:
So, my first Badwater was 2011.
Rip Esselstyn:
Got it.
Harvey Lewis:
Goggins also, I've run with Goggins in Badwater. Actually, he wrote in his book which, it's a great book. He wrote about the 2014 Badwater. And he ended up having some difficulty and having to drop out after the first mountain, on that one. That's the one where I won the race.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh.
Harvey Lewis:
But I remember having a couple exchanges with David. He's definitely a character. Yeah. I love his book. And what he's done to inspire people, is amazing. Because, I know he's brought a lot of people into the sport, that had no idea of it, or had no interest in that. And so, he's elevated the sport, I feel like. So, I admire what he's done.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. You mentioned your running streak. You've kept it alive, even when you have to do one mile. How long is your running streak?
Harvey Lewis:
Right now, it's at two years and maybe a month. So, it's building back. I almost had it to five years, and then I got a bit of an Achilles pull, at the 2019, 24 hour world championship.
Rip Esselstyn:
Ah.
Harvey Lewis:
I mean, it's incredible. There's people that have streaks for 40 years plus. So, it's amazing. But I do enjoy it. Going back in time where I was a younger person, I think I thought that was crazy, or why would someone want to do that? But for me to go... if you saw my count or you'd be like, oh my God, Harvard. What are you doing? I've got so many things on there, with runs. I mean, I don't just run once a day. I normally run twice a day. A lot of days, I run three times a day.
Harvey Lewis:
Because I'm always running back and forth to work, that streak is going on eight years. But for me to go run, if I do a little day, small day is maybe, only eight miles. To me, that's almost like a day off. Because, I'm just running easy. I'm running a couple times in a day, and it's just easy. I'm not running fast. It's like walking. Then I have my other days that I'll do more miles, or do more intensity. So it is not like, every day is a hard day. Yeah. That might not make sense to people.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh. No, totally.
Harvey Lewis:
Hearing myself say it, it does sound little silly.
Rip Esselstyn:
No.
Harvey Lewis:
Little ridiculous, but...
Rip Esselstyn:
Do you even own a car?
Harvey Lewis:
I do. I do actually, have a vehicle.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Harvey Lewis:
And my fiance lives in Circleville, so I actually live between two different cities. So I have to commute there. I have run there before, it's 104 miles. But it's a lot easier to drive. Otherwise, my whole weekend would be consumed with just running to see my fiance, and running home. Every weekend.
Rip Esselstyn:
Is she a runner?
Harvey Lewis:
She is. Yeah. Unfortunately, Kelly puts up with me.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow. So, did you meet her at one of the events, or...
Harvey Lewis:
Yes. I actually did meet her at a 24 hour race, where we were both stuck on the same loop. So, she couldn't run away from me.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow.
Harvey Lewis:
I got to really talk to her. And I'd run with her for a while, then I'd speed up and do a few laps. Catch back up with her. It was motivation to me moving faster.
Rip Esselstyn:
Ah. Is she also plant based?
Harvey Lewis:
She is 95%.
Rip Esselstyn:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Harvey Lewis:
So, she eats cheese pizza when she wants to.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right.
Harvey Lewis:
Once a week, or something. But she's really changed her eating habits, as well. I mean, she was very traditional American diet, and she's also found an impact with eating more plant based foods. And she's an amazing chef. She makes incredible stuff. I love it.
Rip Esselstyn:
That's awesome. So, you live in Cincinnati, right?
Harvey Lewis:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
And how long have you been teaching? And what do you teach?
Harvey Lewis:
Yeah. So I teach financial literacy and American government, at the School for Performing Arts. It's a public arts school. It's K through 12. We're closing in our 50 year celebration.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow.
Harvey Lewis:
It's a really neat school because, it's very diverse. We have students coming from all different backgrounds, across greater Cincinnati. So, we have a very diverse population. And a really amazing group. They're really interested in their particular major. Whether that be ballet or musical theater, focal, creative writing. So, it's a neat environment. And I get a lot of positive energy from my students, that I then take and take it to the ultra's.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Harvey Lewis:
I think that some of that mindset I've been able to gain, also from my students.
Rip Esselstyn:
Do they realize what a running stud you are?
Harvey Lewis:
I don't know about that. I don't know if I'd say... my students are... we have a lot of fun with it. Today, we did pushups in second bell. And I had another student, he comes in, does pushups... He's a senior, so he comes in on a Wednesday. Usually once a day, or every other day.
Harvey Lewis:
He says, ready for our push up time. Let's go.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow.
Harvey Lewis:
And then on the run to work, I'll see some of my students look me, run their little ways. Yeah. So they do know I'm into the running thing. But I try not to be overbearing at all, but I just try to be there as a role model. And then, as a resource, if they have questions. We have had the vegetarian club in the past. But due to COVID, we have not had that now.
Rip Esselstyn:
Mm.
Harvey Lewis:
Having the vegetarian club, gives me a low opportunity to speak about nutrition. And otherwise, I really don't speak about that much. I do have one lesson, I talk about health in terms of financial literacy. And its impact on our financial health. But, I try to not be overbearing.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Well, I think that's a really smart approach. And I can't imagine how much some of the other teachers must respect you and be in awe of you. And feel really lucky that you're teaching at this school, and the positive energy and influence that you have really on the whole school community. That's pretty remarkable.
Harvey Lewis:
Thank you. I appreciate that.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Harvey Lewis:
Yeah. Honestly, our school is a really neat place. And every teacher here, I think, brings their own special dynamic that adds to the whole picture. So, I definitely don't feel like I'm bringing any additional, beyond each other person here. I think they all bring something that's powerful.
Harvey Lewis:
But it's a really neat career, to be in teaching. Or to be a teacher. And it's nice. It's really powerful, especially with my group I have. I mean, I get a lot of... for the race, Big's for example, I had my students write out... if they wanted to. I didn't say, you had to. They had note cards. They could make a message for me. And so, John, my crew chief. When I was going through difficult parts of the race, he could hand me one of these note cards, and I would read it. And it really empowered me, through that lab. I mean, there's no way I'm going to be stopping, while my students saying something positive. That's just fuel the fire, for sure. So I mean, there's definitely a dual relationship, in terms of, I'm getting a lot from my students, as well as giving.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Nice. So it seems to me, that you also have a passion for different causes, in your life. And I know that back in 2008, for example, you retraced Gandhi's Salt March.
Harvey Lewis:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
241 miles, or something like that.
Harvey Lewis:
Right.
Rip Esselstyn:
Tell me a little bit about that, and why you did that.
Harvey Lewis:
Yeah. So, I love connecting to history. And being able to share that with my students. And also, I have intrigue for historical figures. Gandhi, going to India. My cousin and his girlfriend at the time, we were going to India. And we came up with this idea, let's retrace Gandhi's footsteps. And so, it started in the Gandhi Ashram, in Ahmedabad. It was 241 miles to Gandhi. It was a crazy adventure because, I didn't have a support crew. In fact, my cousin and his girlfriend, they broke up on the second day. And they up going off on their own, on their bikes.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Harvey Lewis:
So I was running through India with just a backpack, with 10 items. Because, that's what Gandhi always had. And so I thought, okay, I'm going to actually simulate this experience. I'm only have 10 items.
Harvey Lewis:
And so, it was challenging because of so many reasons. But the congestion, there's more congestion than there is open space, in that area of the world. And there was a lot of challenges with the pollution, in the different cities. I didn't think of it as being a challenge going into it, but that was really difficult, surviving the pollution.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow.
Harvey Lewis:
The people were extraordinary. They would give me everything I asked. I mean, I wouldn't ask for anything, and they'd give me everything they had. So I mean, the people were just amazing. I had the Times of India following me every day, in different journalists. So, they would publish every day updates. And so, along the journey, about every two or three trucks would just be honking at me, and waving. So, everyone knew what I was doing at that point. I'd go through Muslim communities, and Hindu communities. And at the end, I met up with a school of deaf and blind children. And the principal had the students finish the last mile with me, which was something just mind blown.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow.
Harvey Lewis:
Getting to meet the kids, and the people there.
Rip Esselstyn:
So, how long did it take you to do that?
Harvey Lewis:
It took me 10 days. Yeah. So, I wasn't as strong of an athlete back then. And I didn't know some of the things I know today. So, I absolutely destroyed my feet. I had the worst blisters of my life. Blisters on top of blisters, on top of blisters. And it was filthy. I mean, I end up coming back to America. I end up getting a staph infection.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh.
Harvey Lewis:
In my leg. It was two months later, or something like that. And I got stye in my eye. I had things that would like hit me three, four months later from that journey, just because I brutalized my body so much to survive. It was tough. I had to actually get bamboo sticks to make it, because my feet were just so blistered from the heat. It was a very hot environment, and very humid environment. So, you're talking close to a hundred degrees. It was the summertime, and it was humid. Very high humidity. So, I learned a lot. And I didn't have electrolytes. I drank a lot of soda and just whatever was available. So, that was problematic too. I learned a lot in that journey.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, it sounds like that was one of your most difficult races.
Harvey Lewis:
Yeah, it really was. It was very difficult.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh my gosh. So it gave you a ton of respect for Gandhi, doing that, huh? Wow.
Harvey Lewis:
Absolutely. I mean, it's amazing just to imagine how he captivated millions of people, but that journey was not easy as well.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Harvey Lewis:
Little over 20 days. And it was March, but it is a journey. It's a journey nevertheless. And to do something like that, to bring media attention and to embody the movement he was creating, that was really interesting to see.
Rip Esselstyn:
You mentioned getting really bad blisters. What advice would you give to people as far as running socks, shoes, so that they don't get blisters?
Harvey Lewis:
Yeah. A big thing that I learned is, I put squirrel nut butter on my feet before I put my socks on. And it's not tons of it, but I just put that over, a little layer. And then, I put my socks on. And that was a huge jump forward, to learn that. Yeah, it's kind of interesting. I think maybe, your running form could impact you too. I wear Newton's, which happen to be all vegan. They're a small little company out of Border. But I've been wearing them for 11 years. And I notice sometimes when I'm running, only a couple times I notice in a year, if I'm running on a trail that has an embankment.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Harvey Lewis:
Notice my foot positioning, I have to adjust it slightly, just because I'm starting to maybe build up a blister. But the Newtons really helped me because, I have a very efficient stride. So I don't really get the type of blisters that I used to get.
Harvey Lewis:
But I think that you want to have, maybe tie your shoes looser, when you're doing a longer event. So if I'm running something over 50K, my shoes are much looser. And I don't time as tight. If I'm running a 5K, my shoes are really tight. And I'm just all about being able to turn, and move as fast as possible. But in the longer race, you actually don't want your shoes tight. You want them rather loose. Not too loose, but just right.
Rip Esselstyn:
You almost want to have your shoe... For example, when you're running Death Valley in the heat. Do you almost want to have a half a size bigger, to accommodate...
Harvey Lewis:
Some people do that. I don't do that because, I think it could affect your form. And with the Newtons, they're already not snugging against my feet. I wear a size 12, always. If I wore an 11 and a half, they would definitely feel too tight. If I wore a 12 and a half... I did that, for that push trail. Come to think of it, I think I may have had one pair that was 12 and a half.
Harvey Lewis:
Because, my feet were swelling a little bit. But I think I always, just not to get too large. But I know people do that, for six day races. They'll often do that. I think it could affect your form, which could create other types of problems for your body. Fortunately, I've been able to also stay injury free, knock on wood, all this time more or less. I mean, even right now, I don't feel a single issue on my body, which is amazing.
Rip Esselstyn:
That's great.
Harvey Lewis:
I mean, that's nice. Yeah. I have Mr. Miyagi. I did go see Mr. Miyagi, it was two days ago or yesterday.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Harvey Lewis:
So, he does help things. Yeah, it's kind of wild.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, I can't wait to look you up and look at your form. Because, you're doing a lot of things right.
Harvey Lewis:
It might not be that good, later in the race. It's not bad. I know my weaknesses. I have a tendency, and my arms, move them up a little bit more when I'm running. But see, you have to do the check on yourself and be like, am I doing that? And then you, oh yeah. I am doing that. Relax my shoulders. We all as runners, we tend to tighten up a little bit when we're running. So when I'm pacing a marathon, I'll say to my marathon group, make sure you relax your shoulders, relax your breathing. The more relaxed you are, the faster you are.
Rip Esselstyn:
So, you have a marathon group?
Harvey Lewis:
No. I mean, I pace of marathons for Clifbar, for about eight years. And then, I still pace the Flying Pig Marathon every year. I really get a lot of joy out of that. I enjoy helping others to reach their personal best times.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right.
Harvey Lewis:
So, it's fun for me to run a pacing time and have a group of people with me. And just talk them through the race, and then also give them motivation as we're going through the race. And try to help them to give their fastest possible time.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Are you able to make money running? Or is this just purely a life's passion.
Harvey Lewis:
It more of a life's passion, but I do have a small business. I take people in the summertime to Portugal, with Run Quest Travel. And so for me, it's not... my main career is of course, teaching.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Harvey Lewis:
I've gotten some assistance from my sponsors, for adventures. But it's pretty much, going to the adventure. I'm happy with my lifestyle, so I don't really need more things. So I mean, its true. I mean, I'd rather be more of a minimalist.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Harvey Lewis:
And for me, I mean, I wouldn't mind if some company says, okay, we're going to give you all the coconut water in the world, and we're going to offer you a sponsorship for that, that covers all your costs. But I still plan to teach. So I mean, even if I had that, I would still plan to teach. Because, I enjoy the experience to teach.
Rip Esselstyn:
Tell me, who are some of your sponsors that help you out?
Harvey Lewis:
Well, Newton is a sponsor. I've been with them for 11 years. Also, 2XU. They're a sponsor. I love the gear. Tailwind is, also Squirrel Nut Butter. I Road iD. This is really nice to have. It's got my information. So if anything ever happens to me, someone can see this. They can get in contact with my significant other. And the Road iD is actually, really nice. This is the dream big band. And it's modeled after Death Valley.
Harvey Lewis:
And we did this for scholarship, for my students. So a portion of sales went to that scholarship. And I think, we raised maybe $2,500 this year for that. So, we're going to repeat that. We'll do one or two dream big bands, each year.
Rip Esselstyn:
Nice.
Harvey Lewis:
That's exciting. Yeah. So, that's pretty much my sponsors. But again, for me, it's just running as a passion. And even if I had... I mean, nothing. Everything I get, is just by doing this sport, the people I interact. I mean, we have an amazing community in ultra running. The places I see. I mean, just getting out in nature.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Harvey Lewis:
Its an incredible experience.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Well, I can tell that you feel very blessed with running, and what it's given you. I remember, I think it was Lance Armstrong, back after he had beaten cancer. And just saying, he would be happy in a tent, just as long as he could continue to ride his bike. And there's something to less is more, and being minimalistic. And just being happy with the basics. And being able to move your body, in a way you love it.
Harvey Lewis:
Yes.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Nothing better. So, is your father also running? You mentioned that he took part in the Appalachian Trail. Or, was he supporting you?
Harvey Lewis:
Yeah, he was my support crew. I couldn't have done it without him. In fact, he drove this old Ford band across the whole Appalachian Trail, and provided me with gear whenever we could enter.
Harvey Lewis:
... and provided me with gear whenever we could intercept, wherever he could intercept me. Sometimes it was every 12 miles, every 15 miles. In Maine wilderness it was further gaps. But it was really a chance of a lifetime to be able to spend that time with my father. And we ended up Rhode ID actually produced a film called Like Harvey Like Son, which is really about the story of our journey together and the relationship we have with one another, as much as it is about the nature of the AT and the challenge of making that journey. And right now we are hoping it will make it to a streaming service. It kind of got bumped by the whole COVID, because it was originally aligned to open in theaters, starting out west in Hollywood in April of 2020. And so with COVID hitting, it was reduced to like, I think, maybe 70 or 90 theaters in the country. And attendance was down to like 15%.
Harvey Lewis:
So it didn't get that initial push, but if anyone's interested they can go on Facebook and search Like Harvey Like Son. It won about 19 ... No 11. It won 11 different awards for the documentary, like for competitions.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow.
Harvey Lewis:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
How did that come to life as far as did somebody approach you saying, "Hey, I want to do a documentary about your Appalachian trail with your father," or?
Harvey Lewis:
That was an interesting story. So actually the director, Rudy Harris, he has a business where he does commercials for companies. And he was doing a commercial for Rhode ID that I was involved in down in Kentucky. We were running on this beautiful area called The Gorge. And he had some amazing like shots and fun with it, I mean with this. And I said, "Hey, I've got this adventure plan this summer. I'm not sure I could tell you guys, but I'd love to have you there." And I ended up telling him, and he worked it out with Rhode ID. And it was really a challenge for them to shoot this, because they came out four different times. And trying to get up on the trail is really difficult. I mean, most of the trail is very technical. It's not like just a normal trail with dirt.
Harvey Lewis:
I mean, there's a lot of very technical areas. And so it's tough to get the equipment in there. And I think it was something that they had no idea what they were getting themselves into. But once they got into it, they loved it. So it was a lot of fun. They're a great group of people. It was a small group, but usually they'd come out with like maybe four or five people and be shooting. And they weren't there the whole time, they came out like three or four different times. And I had a blast with them. So I mean ultimately, no matter what, it's really meaningful to me because I have a film with my father. So I'll always be able to look back and see that and capture that experience. So I'm grateful for that.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. What a great keepsake. Now I know from the documentary The Game Changers, I don't know if you've ever seen The Game Changers.
Harvey Lewis:
Oh yeah. Yeah. I loved it.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. And just hearing from Louis Psihoyos, the director, how challenging it was getting some of that footage of Scott Jurek when he got the record. Was that 2017 that Scott did that?
Harvey Lewis:
He got the record in, I think, 2015.
Rip Esselstyn:
'15. Okay.
Harvey Lewis:
Yeah. 2015 or 2016.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, yeah.
Harvey Lewis:
Yeah. And then, yeah. It's impressive, impressive that they got that footage.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Well, as you probably know, it chewed Scott up pretty badly. And he went north. Did you go north to south?
Harvey Lewis:
I went worth as well.
Rip Esselstyn:
You did.
Harvey Lewis:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow. Is that your first time trying it?
Harvey Lewis:
It was my first time. Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow.
Harvey Lewis:
And that made it tough. So Scott was smart that he went out there with Carl, his friend, and had been out there before. So he had some more exposure, and seeing someone else do it, which is helpful. I think before I went out to it I had no conception of what the Appalachian Trail really was. I mean, to me, I thought it just seemed like it was going to be so much easier than it actually was. I envisioned the trails we have in Ohio. Like there are dirt trails without that many rocks and roots. And then I got to like Pennsylvania and I'm just like, "There's 80 miles of just rocks that are all different like sizes. They literally ... It's just nuts." And there's a lot more climbing. I mean, 10,000 feet a day, that's a lot of climbing when you're running like 50 mile days.
Harvey Lewis:
So like the first three weeks I was running 50 mile days, and I had like a rough stretch in the white mountains where I was doing significantly lower. But when you're running like 50 miles a day and you're covering 10,000 feet, it's like to run 50 miles on a road, that would be pretty hard. It wouldn't be that hard, but to add like it's on a technical trail and then to add 10,000 feet of climbing, it's really rough on your body.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Yeah.
Harvey Lewis:
It is a challenge. I mean, I learned a lot. Like if I were to go back and do it in again, I would do things differently. Like I would start with poles. I didn't start using poles until like the last half of the event. But I should have started off by using poles and training with poles, because that puts less pressure on your body. That would be one thing I would do differently. I would probably not push as hard when I'm feeling tired. And I would like pace myself better and not be so laser focused that we must reach this mount today. Because some days maybe it's better to go slightly less. Yeah.
Harvey Lewis:
And then our thing, I became overdependent on the vehicle. So what I meant by that is that the vehicle would be positioned. We could only get it like in some places every 10 or 12 miles. So maybe if I finished at 8:30 at one point, if I were to go the next 10 or 12 miles to get the next point, it might be 11 o'clock. So I had to choose between do I want to stop at 8:30, or do I want to stop at 11:00? And neither of those are great times. It would be better for me to maybe stop at 9:45 or 10 o'clock. So it would be better if I slept more on the trail, but I found a way that [volume cuts out briefly]. I just didn't have a system that was very good for sleeping. I did it, I slept out in the woods, but I'd have to transition myself.
Rip Esselstyn:
Do you have a difficulty with ticks at all and rain?
Harvey Lewis:
No, actually. Ticks, I only had like two ticks on me I think the whole trip.
Rip Esselstyn:
That's incredible.
Harvey Lewis:
That's it. I know. I don't know if it's they don't like the food I eat, or what. But yeah, the rain was crazy. We have a trailer that you could pull up, and it's got myself and a friend, Greg Armstrong, running across this metal bridge near Harpers Ferry. And there's just like the rain is coming down like we're in the middle of a monsoon, and there's lightning and everything like that. And it's really kind of a fun trailer if you get a chance to check it out. I mean, it's in the film as well.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's really cool. So when you're running, when you're doing these races, when you're training, do you like listening to music, or do you not? Do you find that's a distraction?
Harvey Lewis:
Yeah, so everything I do is simulating the environment of the race, typically. And so I do. I really like listening to music, especially like I never take any painkillers whatsoever. I mean, if I had to have like a surgery or something, I would. But I never take any painkillers. And so for ultras, if I'm feeling really discomfort, also I can listen to music because it just kind of enables me to put my mind somewhere else to disassociate myself from that discomfort, and it goes away. So it's kind of wild how you can do that. But I also listen to music just to get inspired in like the ... also just keep yourself motivated. For the Barclay race, it's not really a good idea to have music. I'm not sure we can have music out there, but you can't have the music out there I don't think. So I'm trying to, to train now without using much music at all, just because of that. Just be out there in the element, be in the woods, in the dark, nobody there, and just the sound of nature. That's it. Just to prepare.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Are you finding it hard to run now without your music or whatever? Is it a bit of a transition?
Harvey Lewis:
Yeah. I mean, it is a little. Everything about Barclay is very difficult. So I would say that. But I only say it now. Once I get like closer, a couple months away, I don't say anything like that. I won't acknowledge it. But it's very difficult. And also, it makes me a little nervous. So I've got a little bit of anticipation, little fear, little anxiety. But that's a good thing because it sharpens our willpower to prepare. And it also makes me take it seriously. So I like the fact. I don't usually get nervous about races. I mean, even if there's a lot on the line, it's like a world championship race, I don't usually get that nervous, or for Badwater now. But like Barclay makes me a little nervous, which is good. Like it's good to find things that make you nervous still, because I found that it also is motivating me like crazy to train, because I'm a little nervous.
Rip Esselstyn:
That's good.
Harvey Lewis:
Got to get out there.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Well I'm excited for you for Barclays. That's going to be quite an event. And as you said, that's March?
Harvey Lewis:
It's in the wintertime. I mean spring, winter, somewhere around there. March, April. It's around that. Yeah. It's in that vicinity. March, April.
Rip Esselstyn:
They don't have the date nailed down yet?
Harvey Lewis:
Well, they do. We just can't say.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh okay. Got you. I got you. I got you.
Harvey Lewis:
Yeah, it's all part of the whole mystique behind the race.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay. All right. I got it. I got it. Part of the magic. So right before I joined you today, somebody that I work with, when they found out I was interviewing you today, she said, "Will you ask Harvey, after he does a race and he puts it all out there, what does he leave behind? Does he leave something behind?" Or do you feel like you're gaining something? Because to me, and obviously to her, it's like when you go that hard, like go for the Appalachian Trail, do the Badwater, the Gobi, are you like somehow like whittling away at your life blood? Or no? You don't look at it like that at all?
Harvey Lewis:
Yeah. It's a good question. Yeah. I never feel like I'm leaving something behind really. I feel like I treasure experiences, and relationships. And those events, they are incredible experiences that I'll remember forever I hope. And also, it adds ... Like winning Big's was such an incredible experience, because it's very improbable. And both Big's and Badwater this year. I mean, I just felt so elated. I still feel the fire from it. I mean, I still feel that excitement. So it inspires me for everything that's possible. So I mean, I understand that I am like at 45, most people would say, "Well Harvey, you've probably just about overdone it now." But I kind of feel like I may be giving some hell in the backyard ultra for a long time to come. So I hope to be like that guy's who's out there at 60 that's like, "Why doesn't he just stop?"
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, that's really-
Harvey Lewis:
Giving us a hard time at 60, and he should just quit.
Rip Esselstyn:
I find it fascinating that you've been doing it 25 years and you're still going stronger than ever, because there's that saying, the light that burns twice as bright burns half as long. And I know some people that have done ultra tris, they specialize in the Ironman distance triathlon. And typically you've got a shelf life of maybe five to 10 years where you can really perform, and then the body typically gives out.
Harvey Lewis:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
So it's interesting to me how long you've been going. And then I also remember, I think it was reading the book by Christopher McDougall.
Harvey Lewis:
Oh yeah. I love that book.
Rip Esselstyn:
What was it called? Can you remember?
Harvey Lewis:
Yes. I love his book too. Born to Run.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, sorry. Born to Run. But where he talked about the Leadville, they brought those Tarahumara Indians in that one year. A 55 year old Indian won that 100 mile race. So to me there are some definite anomalies out there. And I love what you're doing. I love-
Harvey Lewis:
Thank you.
Rip Esselstyn:
I love-
Harvey Lewis:
Thank you so much.
Rip Esselstyn:
I love your longevity. I love your-
Harvey Lewis:
Thank you so much.
Rip Esselstyn:
... stronger. Your positivity. It is awesome.
Harvey Lewis:
I hear like what you're saying, and actually it's something I take seriously. So I really like focus in on things that will heal my body. So I definitely focus in on the nutrition. I visit Mr. Miyagi with the ART. And I also value like sleep and listening to my body. So if I feel like something, I ease up. And I have amazing role models. Well, my buddy's in Cincinnati. He's 99.8 years young. So I mean, he is all plant based, Mike Fremont. And he still runs five miles three times a week, and-
Rip Esselstyn:
He's 99?
Harvey Lewis:
99.8. And he kayaks the other two or three days a week. And he can do more pull ups than I can do. He can do 16 pull ups. So I mean, I'm like, "Geez." And then there's Marco Olmo, who I was on a team with in the marathon des Sables. That's actually, yeah, a documentary called Desert Around Me for that, with the five number team. But he actually won the UTMB at the age of 57. And he's all plant based as well.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow.
Harvey Lewis:
So famous Italian runner, Marco Olmo. He finished like number 16 in the marathon des Sables at age 67. I mean, that's incredible. So I mean, he's still going strong. So I do have some really powerful role models. They give me the idea that it's possible to continue going for a long time.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow.
Harvey Lewis:
And then the technique. Like I said, the shoes. The technique I have, like for the good form. That really has an impact. But I hear what you're saying. There is some limitations. I don't plan to do a backyard ultra every month. I think that would be a little over the top.
Rip Esselstyn:
I love your role models, and this 99.8 year old guy that is running three times a week and can do 16 pull ups. Is that at once? 16 at once?
Harvey Lewis:
One time. Yeah. He can do it one time.
Rip Esselstyn:
Not doing sets of five?
Harvey Lewis:
Actually, I'd love for you to have him on.
Rip Esselstyn:
You'll have to hook me up with him.
Harvey Lewis:
I will. I will.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh my gosh. That's crazy. I can remember when Dave Scott at 42 got second at the Hawaii Ironman triathlon. And it was like, Oh my God, this guy's a grandfather, grandfather, and he's practically winning the Hawaii Ironman." And look at you, you're 44, 45 and you're doing insane things. It's just spectacular.
Harvey Lewis:
Well, I appreciate it. And yeah. That's got to be pretty amazing. How many Ironmans did you do?
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh, Ironmans, they weren't my thing. My thing was the international 1.5k swim, 40k bike, 10k run. I usually did those in like an hour 50.
Harvey Lewis:
Wow.
Rip Esselstyn:
That was my specialty.
Harvey Lewis:
So fast.
Rip Esselstyn:
But so I did ... In my career, and I had a career that spanned about, oh, a good almost 20 years, I only did two Ironmans. They were both were in Hawaii, and they both obliterated me.
Harvey Lewis:
Wow.
Rip Esselstyn:
They obliterated me.
Harvey Lewis:
Well, beautiful terrain at least.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yes, it was. Yes.
Harvey Lewis:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. It was. It's very majestic and magical. And it's this fierce, fierce beauty out here, with the lava fields and everything like that.
Harvey Lewis:
Yeah. It's beautiful.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Yeah. So tell me, what have you eaten so far today? Like what's your typical breakfast?
Harvey Lewis:
Well, honestly, I had granola today, and almond milk with dark cherries, frozen dark cherries I'll throw in. Usually I have that or Power O's with almond milk and chia seeds and blueberries. I love blueberries. I actually got like two giant containers at Costco last night of blueberries. I'll probably eat them in about two days. But also, last night I got ... just at Whole Foods there's like a deli. So on the weekdays I do a lot of buying food out. On the weekends Kelly makes food, and I love to eat her food. So it's amazing. But yeah, so I had just some mixture of vegetables. And it was like a vegan meatball from Whole Foods with green beans and capers and olives. And it was really actually very delicious. And last night I had burritos from Cordoba. So I had like, what, rice and black beans.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Harvey Lewis:
So that's kind of a typical day for me. I eat a lot of snacks too. I love to eat. So I'll probably eat like four meals. I get home and I'll munch on like some hummus and some healthy type of like flax seed chips or something like that. And yeah, I eat a lot of food. Variety. I don't usually drink a lot of protein shakes. So the only supplement I have is like vitamin B12. That's it.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Well, I think that's great. I think way too many people spend way too much money on a lot of supplementation, on a lot of protein powders and shakes and stuff like that. And to me, the best way to optimize your nutrition is with whole foods. Right?
Harvey Lewis:
Yeah. Definitely.
Rip Esselstyn:
You're getting all of the benefit, all the fiber, all the phytonutrients, antioxidants, the carbs, the fats, the protein. And the perfect balance that nature intended, as opposed to some isolated form that's been stripped of everything.
Harvey Lewis:
Right.
Rip Esselstyn:
So anyway, I think that ... I'm really glad to hear that you're not doing a lot of that stuff. That's good to hear. Yeah.
Harvey Lewis:
Yeah. That's another thing that kind of excites me, is that I know I can continuously grow. And like even what I'm doing now, like Mike Fremont, the fellow I was talking about who's 99.8, he's much more scientific about what he eats. I just kind of like eat everything. But I know that I can still improve in that too. And that's kind of exciting. Like I love learning about new foods. And there's certain things like I'll do now. Like I don't eat beets a lot, but I will actually drink like beet juice, like the few days leading up to a big race I really care about. And it's funny, but it's part of my tradition. And there's certain foods or spices like turmeric. I know that that's really good time for anti-inflammation. I love learning about like the types of foods that can impact you, and the benefits of them. So it's exciting to, yeah. It's part of the whole picture, and what's exciting is still me learning about these things.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yep. Very much. And you're exactly right. The science with the beet juice, the science with the turmeric, and being anti-inflammatory with the turmeric and with the beet juice as far as the nitrates that can allow the blood flow and dilation of the vessels to working muscles, all that stuff. Yeah.
Harvey Lewis:
Yes.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. It's fascinating. Hey Harvey, I'm going to let you go.
Harvey Lewis:
There we go. All right.
Rip Esselstyn:
Because otherwise I could talk to you forever, because I-
Harvey Lewis:
Well, I appreciate it. It has been an honor to be like on this with you. And yeah. I loved it. So thank you so much for sharing and letting me be a part of your show. And it's been a blast chatting with you. I'd love to connect more on some more adventures in the future.
Rip Esselstyn:
I'd love to. Actually, let's do this. After Barclays, I want to have you back on the podcast and we'll talk about how it went. Whether you're the 16th person to finish it-
Harvey Lewis:
Or the first one to go out, which-
Rip Esselstyn:
Or the first one to go out.
Harvey Lewis:
Laz calls that the sacrificial lamb.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. But I want to-
Harvey Lewis:
Apparently he has pegged me as the sacrificial lamb. So we'll see if it comes true.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay. Well, I can't wait to hear about it. And in the meantime, I'm going to send you a little Plantstrong care package to help. We'll send you some cereals, granolas, pizza crust, some veggie broths.
Harvey Lewis:
Wow. You're making me hungry now.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
Harvey Lewis:
Thank you so much.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. So with that, man, all the best my Plantstrong ultra distance brother. And I can't wait to connect.
Harvey Lewis:
I appreciate it so much.
Rip Esselstyn:
All right.
Harvey Lewis:
Thank you.
Rip Esselstyn:
Peace engine two, keep it Plantstrong.
Rip Esselstyn:
Harvey, the Energizer bunny, thank you for taking the time after school, and before your evening run, to speak with me. You are putting out the energy that we all need so desperately right now. In fact, Ultra Runner Magazine just named Harvey Lewis one of the top five ultra runners of 2021, but you're definitely number one in my book. To learn more about Harvey and all of our Plantstrong resources, visit the show notes at plantstrongpodcast.com. Thanks.
Rip Esselstyn:
The Plantstrong podcast team includes Carrie Barrett, Laurie Kortowich, Ami Mackey, Patrick Gavin, and Wade Clark. This season is dedicated to all of those courageous truth seekers who weren't afraid to look through the lens with clear vision and hold firm to a higher truth, most notably my parents, Dr. Caldwell B. Esselstyn Jr, and Ann Crile Esselstyn. Thanks for listening.
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