#138: Dr. Heather Shenkman - Treating Cardiac Disease from the Heart
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Heather Shenkman, MD, FACC
Dr. Heather Shenkman has known she wanted to be a Doctor since she was a young girl and today, she’s one of the top Interventional Cardiologists in the country.
You see, while Heather does perform complex angioplasties and other surgeries to open up clogged coronary arteries, she prefers to help her patients reduce their risk of heart disease through not only medication, but also a healthy lifestyle, including a whole-foods, plant-based diet and regular exercise.
Heather herself has been plantstrong since 2005 and her book, “The Vegan Heart Doctor’s Guide to Reversing Heart Disease, Losing Weight, and Reclaiming Your Life” outlines her simple path to reclaiming and living a full and active lifestyle.
Not only do we discuss facts about blood pressure, heart disease, and statins, but we also discuss specific lifestyle changes to help you become PLANTSTRONG with your whole heart.
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Promo Music: Your Love by Atch
License: Creative Commons License - Attribution 3.0 Unported (CC BY 3.0)
Full YouTube Transcript
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
My initial reasons for wanting to be vegetarian were because I loved the animals. And the more I learned about how animal products, including eggs and dairy get to our table, and the horrible lives of veal cows, and the mothers who were milked, and the chickens that lay eggs, and the baby chicks that are killed early on because there of no use just in order to make more eggs, that really tugged at my heart. But that said, I was also in my cardiology fellowship training and learning more about how diet can help heart disease. And of course, I came upon your father's work. So, not only was a diet that I was passionate about for the animals, but also, something that I knew was healthier for people, and for the environment as well. So it was a good blend to me and that it made sense that if this diet that's good for the animals is good for people, this is something I want to offer my patients.
Rip Esselstyn:
I'm Rip Esselstyn, and welcome to the PLANTSTRONG Podcast. The mission at PLANTSTRONG is to further the advancement of all things within the plant-based movement. We advocate for the scientifically proven benefits of plant-based living, and envision a world that universally understands, promotes, and prescribes plants as a solution to empowering your health, enhancing your performance, restoring the environment, and becoming better guardians to the animals we share this planet with. We welcome you wherever you are on your PLANTSTRONG journey. And I hope that you enjoy this show.
Rip Esselstyn:
Hello, my PLANTSTRONG Papayas, and welcome to another episode of the PLANTSTRONG Podcast. I'm Rip Esselstyn. I've got papayas on my mind right now, because this weekend I was hanging out with Robby Barbaro and Cyrus Khambatta. They are the two Allstars from mastering diabetes. And they're practically fruitarians. And we were double feasting mangoes, we were eating the most amazing papayas, plantains, bananas, Kiwis. It was a fruit fest, and my whole family just got so into it. These guys are really spectacular and I'm still on a high from having him stay with us for a couple days. But let's talk about today's episode. A few months ago, I read a quote from a cardiologist that really caught my eye. And it read, "In over 11 years of medical practice, not a single plant-based patient under my care has gone on to have another heart attack, need another stent, or need bypass surgery."
Rip Esselstyn:
That is a super powerful statement. And that physician is my guest today. Her name is Dr. Heather Shenkman, and she is an interventional cardiologist. And I want to focus for a second on a key phrase in her statement. Plant-based patient. You see, while Heather performs complex angioplasty and other surgeries to open up clogged coronary arteries, she prefers to help her patients reduce their risk of heart disease through not only medication, but also a healthy lifestyle, including a plant-based diet, and regular exercise. She is totally speaking my love language. Heather herself has been PLANTSTRONG since 2005, and her book, The Vegan Heart Doctor's Guide to Reversing Heart Disease, Losing Weight, and Reclaiming Your Life, outlines her simple path to doing just that, and living a very full and vibrant lifestyle. Let's welcome Dr. Heather Shenkman.
Rip Esselstyn:
We're going to talk today about heart disease. Heart disease, and what people can do to... They may think that they've got this death sentence hanging over their head. And I think what you're going to hopefully share with our listeners today is that, excuse me, is that there's no reason that you should ever have another heart attack, or stent, or cardiac event. And that, to me, is cause for celebration.
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
I would agree. And that's why I love what I do for a living.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Yeah. So, I'd love to dive in. Actually you wrote this book, The Vegan Heart Doctor's Guide to Reversing Heart Disease, Losing Weight, and Reclaiming Your Life. Who doesn't want any of that? It's all good stuff. And so, congrats on the book and getting it out into the universe. Writing a book is... It's not easy and-
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
No, it most certainly is not.
Rip Esselstyn:
So, congrats on that. I love having you on the show, I've had other heart doctors on the show before. I've had obviously Columbus Batiste, I've had Kim Williams, Dr. Brian Asbill. I've had two of the pioneers to show that we can not only prevent, but reverse heart disease, Dean Ornish, and obviously my father, Dr. Caldwell B. Esselstyn Jr. And in reading your book, I really want people to understand why you went into medicine, why you were drawn specifically to the heart. I'd love for you to share why you're so jazzed about exercise. And now, why you're now this iron-womanning, marathoning, interventional cardiologist. But specifically too, in reading your book, I was really drawn to you explain what heart disease is. What's going on with cholesterol levels, stroke, hypertension. So, after we talk about your particular story, I'd love for you to drill home to people what is heart disease? And so, what's going on at a basic level, because I feel like with all these experts, we've never done that before. Does that sound good?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
That's true. Yeah. Yeah. That sounds great. Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
But let me start with this. So, Heather, why did you decide to get into medicine?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
I honestly can't recall wanting to do anything else with my life, which is, this sound a little bit crazy. I was the three year old who said I wanted to be a doctor. And one of my friends, who I've known since kindergarten, tells me I was running around kindergarten one day saying, "I want to be a doctor because I want to play with people's brains." Well, that's clearly not the direction I went, but I've always known I wanted to use my knowledge to be able to help people. And I got into a combined degree program straight out of high school that allowed me to finish my bachelor's and MD degree in six years. So, by 23 years of age, I was a physician doing my internship.
Rip Esselstyn:
That's crazy. 23!
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Yeah. It is pretty crazy. In retrospect.
Rip Esselstyn:
So, throughout high school and college, did you excel in academics?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
I did pretty well in high school. I mean, I was not the most social individual, but I did pretty well academically, and it permitted me to get into one of these fairly competitive combined degree programs. So, I have absolutely no idea what it's like to take an MCAT exam because I didn't have to. I was automatically admitted into medical school.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow. And so, where did you go for this combined degree?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Well, I got my undergraduate graduate degree from a place called RPI Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, which is in Troy, New York. And after two years there, I was automatically admitted into Albany Medical College, which was basically just down the road. There were 20 of us who started the program. And of the 20 of us, I believe 14 of us finished. I can tell you in retrospect, it saved me a lot of money in schooling because I cut out a couple of years, but I think it's, at least for me, it was emotionally hard to be a medical student at age 19. I wasn't the most social individual growing up. I spent a lot of time studying. So, I really valued my years in college, and my sorority experience, and having fun. So, it was a hard transition for me.
Rip Esselstyn:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). So, you were two years in Troy, and then were you four years in Albany?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Yes.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. And what did you think of Albany as a city? Okay?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Albany was an okay place. I mean, it's fairly small. I'm originally from the Detroit area, which is a much larger metropolitan area. So, it was smaller, but there were things to do. And when you're in medical school, you don't really have a lot of time to do things. So, it was fine.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Yeah. Well I know Albany's the capital, it's 45 miles from the Esselstyn family farm.
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Oh yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
That's kind of near Hudson, Claverack area. So, I always fly in to Albany quite frequently. Adorable little airport.
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Yeah, sure is.
Rip Esselstyn:
It really is. So, that's interesting. And so coming out of Albany Medical College, 1999.
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Yes.
Rip Esselstyn:
You what? I mean, in reading your book, it looked like you were interested in emergency medicine, and then you tried a little stint at family medicine, and then hematology. And so, how did you land with the heart?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Originally I thought I would be very excited about the fast paced action of emergency medicine. But as I got to medical school, I realized there was more to it than just that. And I found that during my rotations of third year of medical school, I was really drawn to internal medicine. I liked the focus on problem solving, and taking care of adult patients. And that's why I did my residency in internal medicine. And it wasn't maybe until a few months into my internal medicine residency that I figured out that I wanted to do cardiology. And there were two aspects to cardiology that really appealed to me. The first, and really in general, it's the fact that you can help people. If people have heart problems, you can help them in two ways. You can help them before they have the problem, and that you can help with who controlling blood pressure, controlling cholesterol, improving their lifestyle, their diet, their exercise.
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
So, you can prevent things on the front end, but on the back end, if they actually do have an event, you can do something to help them. You can open up a blocked artery, you can fix a valve. So, that really appealed to me, the ability to use my knowledge, to help people.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yes. And so then, you decided to go into what form of cardiology?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
I am an interventional cardiologist. So, what I am able to do is I can perform a coronary angiogram, which is a procedure to basically inject dye directly into the coronary arteries. And if there is an artery that is blocked off, such as in the setting of a heart attack, I can open that up and save a person's life, and that's pretty exciting.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right. And do you also do stents and stuff like that?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Yes. That would be a procedure in which an artery would be open, and a tube called a stent would be inserted into the artery as a scaffolding to hold the artery open.
Rip Esselstyn:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). And you also do angioplasty?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Yes, I do. And that's along the same lines, opening up a blocked artery.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right. But you don't do open heart surgery?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
I do not do open heart surgery. That is an entirely different track. The training to become a cardiothoracic surgeon starts with a general surgery residency, whereas to be a cardiologist, it starts with an internal medicine residency.
Rip Esselstyn:
Got it, got it. So, how would you define a healthy heart? In your book, you do a nice job. Like, how does a healthy heart function for example?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Well, I would say that in general, a healthy heart allows you to do the things that you want to do. But in order to keep that heart healthy, you need to make sure that everything around it is controlled to make sure that the blood pressure is under control, that the cholesterol is under control. That if there is diabetes, that is under control, and blood sugars aren't too high. So, that would be a healthy heart.
Rip Esselstyn:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). So, you say blood pressure under control, for people that know that, oh yeah, my blood pressure, it should be 120 over 80, what is blood pressure? What's an indication of, and why is it so important that we keep this in control?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Right. So, blood pressure is the pressure that is felt inside the arteries of your heart. And having a healthy blood pressure, not too low, not too high, too low is rarely a problem, ensures that the heart is working well, in blood is getting to your tissues and organs. Things that can raise the blood pressure include genetics, a diet that's higher in salt, and perhaps a stressful lifestyle, and not exercising. So, having a healthy blood pressure is very important. Also, on the converse, if blood pressure is elevated, it does increase the risk of having a heart attack or having a stroke.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, what does... I mean, what? I think you wrote in your book they were close to a third of Americans are considered hypertensive, right?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Rip Esselstyn:
So, that's almost a hundred and what, 20 million of us. And it's referred to as the silent killer, so it's very dangerous. What does it do to our vessels when you have this high blood pressure?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Right. So, high blood pressure is called the silent killer because you could be walking around with a very, very high blood pressure. Our body gets used to blood pressure over time. You could be walking around with a very high blood pressure and not even know it if you haven't had it checked. And having an uncontrolled blood pressure does cause risk of many complications, and most important of which would be heart attack, and stroke and which is within the realm of disease diseases of the arteries of the body.
Rip Esselstyn:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). And so, you mentioned a low sodium diet. Also, I would imagine that the curtailing process, refined foods, animal products, animal byproducts, would also be helpful, yes?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Yes. I would add absolutely agree with that. And the interesting thing is the diets that initially were used to treat high blood pressure back in the 1940s before there were pills for blood pressure, it was actually a fully vegan diet because it actually was a diet that was based on rice for the most part. And it was found that if you profoundly change somebody's diet, then you can bring their blood pressure down drastically. And then in the 60s and 70s, when the DASH diet, the dietary approaches to stop hypertension, then that diet was developed, and that's the diet that we are pushed to provide for people to control their blood pressure. That diet initially was designed on a vegetarian diet though it in itself does state that people are allowed to have a little bit of animal products, and some lean meat, and low fat dairy and whatnot.
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
But if you get into the paper, there's an interesting phrase. They say that the diet is designed to have the benefits of a vegetarian diet, but to be palatable enough to people so that they will actually follow it. So basically, suggesting that yeah, blood pressure is best controlled with the vegetarian diet, but we don't think people can be vegetarians because they just won't do it.
Rip Esselstyn:
Uh-huh (affirmative). Well, we know better than that, right?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Absolutely.
Rip Esselstyn:
And I want to talk about that in a sec. But you mentioned in the 1940s, I think you're probably referring to the work by Dr. Walter Kempner.
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Yes.
Rip Esselstyn:
Out of duke, right?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Yes. Correct. Kempner's work.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. And he was able to what? He had them on a 5%, I think protein diet, he did white rice because I think he wanted that protein down if I'm not mistaken, and fruit, and then also white sugar, right?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Exactly. Yeah. So very, very low protein, very high carbohydrate, and fairly low in calories as well.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he got amazing results not only with that, but also with weight loss.
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I've seen pictures of the before and after with the white rice Kempner diet. And-
Rip Esselstyn:
I know.
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
... it's like night and day.
Rip Esselstyn:
No. It is night and day. Yeah. I first learned of Walter Kempner through Dr. John McDougal, who really admires his work, and all that he was able to accomplish. So, you just said that in that one paper, it said that we know what a vegetarian diet could do, but because it's not palatable, we're going to recommend this. How do you address a major lifestyle change with your patients that come in and see you and you're like, "Hey I got the answer for you."
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Right.
Rip Esselstyn:
How do you do that?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Well, there's a couple of settings in which I do that. One of those settings that I find most fascinating is if I've seen somebody emergently, we're meeting for the first time, and I just opened up their blocked artery, and saved their life, and saved their heart from having massive damage. And they're on the cath lab table afterwards, and we're talking, and I'll say, 'These are the medicines you're going to need to take, but you're going to change your lifestyle." And right there, patients lying flat on the cath lab table, we'll start talking about benefits of plant-based diets. And it's amazing that the uptake that I often see if people say, "Okay, can I do that in the hospital?" I say, "Yeah, sure. We can give you a plant-based diet here in the hospital." And they go with it, and they run with it, and they do really well.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wait, wait, wait, time out. You have the ability to give your patients a plant-based diet in the hospital? That's an option for them?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
It is in fact an option. Yes.
Rip Esselstyn:
Really? That sounds pretty unique. I haven't heard of many hospitals that do that. I know Montefiore has that as an option. And where are you? What hospital are you at?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Well, I guess, it helps to be in Southern California. I'm in the San Fernando Valley. My two main hospitals are Valley Presbyterian Hospital and Providence Tarzana Medical Center.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay. Okay. Well, that's great. And so, what percent of your patients would you say when you say, "Hey, we can get you going right now," 50%? 75? 25?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
You know what? It's funny that initial enthusiasm's pretty good. I'd say more than half are like, "Yeah, let's try it out." And then I try to get a consultation with the nutritionist to try to further emphasize some of the things that I'm telling patients so that it's something that they may be able to stick with once they leave the hospital.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Well, I would imagine that it's also very... It's much more sellable when you tell them, "Hey, this is the way I eat," Right? "And this is something that you could do as well." I mean, do you make that known to them that this is the lifestyle you follow?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Oh, absolutely. And I make it clear to my patients. I'm not going to tell you to do something that I myself can't or won't do.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
So, yes, absolutely.
Rip Esselstyn:
And how long have you been following a whole food plant-based lifestyle?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
I've been a vegetarian since I was 16 years old, but I didn't adopt a whole food plant-based diet until I was in my cardiology fellowship. I think I was, I was 29 years old. So, I guess, I'm dating myself in saying that I've been on whole food plant-based diet for 17 years now.
Rip Esselstyn:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). And what inspired you to go all in with a whole food plant-based at the age of 29?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Well, my initial reasons for wanting to be vegetarian were because I loved the animals. And the more I learned about how animal products, include eggs and dairy get to our table, and the horrible lives of veal cows, and the mothers who were milked, and the chickens that lay eggs, and the baby chicks that are killed early on, because there of no use just in order to make more eggs, that really tugged at my heart. But that said, I was also in my cardiology fellowship training and learning more about how diet can help heart disease. And of course, I came upon your father's work, Prevent And Reverse Heart Disease. I read his book. I read his, well, one paper at the time, the second paper wasn't out quite yet.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
And Dean Ornish's work, of course. So, not only was a diet that I was passionate about for the animals, but also something that I knew was healthier for people and for the environment as well. So, it was a good blend to me and that it made sense that if this diet that's good for the animals is good for people, this is something I want to offer my patients.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. But so how did you find, for example, like my father's paper, or Dean Ornish's work? Because it seems to me that a lot of cardiologists, and maybe I'm incorrect here, don't seem to be up on the research, or the papers, or some of these kind of groundbreaking books that are out there.
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Right. I think that that's actually changed at least in my time here in Southern California. When I first came out here in 2007, I don't think there was anybody else who had a inkling towards plan of based diets. But now, I can probably think off of the top of my head about a dozen cardiologists who either are vegans, or are proponents of vegan plant-based diets for heart health.
Rip Esselstyn:
And why do you think that is?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
I just think that people are hearing more about plant-based diets. There was the Forks Over Knives movie that came out almost... Actually, I think it's 10 years ago at this point. So, the information is more out there, and doctors, as well as everybody else, are picking up on it.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right. So, when you talk to other fellow cardiologists, are they like, "Oh yeah, there's something to that," or are they like, "Eh, come on, man. It doesn't matter what you eat. It's got nothing to do with it. It's all in the genes."
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
I think most cardiologists at this point, get it that, yeah, diet's important. And I even know cardiologists who I'm acquainted with, who aren't necessarily plant-based, but have asked me questions about how I do it, how I talk to my patients. So, there definitely is the interest there.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Well, that's heartwarming to hear that. Very heartwarming.
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Because I can tell you, I don't know, in my opinion, five, 10 years ago, it seemed like most cardiologist, they either hadn't read about it, or didn't want to hear about it because Hey, if I can put a stent in you... And I mean, you tell me, but according to what I've read here, especially like some of the latest research in The Lancet, unless it's a lifesaving kind of procedures, stents really don't make a difference, but...
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Right. And for the most part, you're right. When it comes to angioplasty and stents, when I have somebody who's coming to me in the office who's saying they're having chest pain when they exert, they rest, it gets better. And they're not having an acute event, an acute heart attack. I explain to them, "I can open up your artery, but I am not prolonging your life. I'm not changing the course of disease. I'm just opening an artery to allow better blood flow and improve your chest pain. So you got to do the rest of the lifestyle the medications, the aspirin, the statin medicine, along with the lifestyle, the exercise, and eating healthfully."
Rip Esselstyn:
So, you mentioned statins just now. I'd love to talk for you about statins, because I've heard... Again, let me tell you what I've heard, and then you tell me what you think. So, I've heard that people that have had a cardiac event, statins can help prevent another event by about 30%. However, the NNT, the numbers needed to treat for people that have not had a cardiac event, 100 people have to be taking a statin drug for five years, for one person to show some sort of benefit. That's what I have read and heard. So, would love to know if you agree with that.
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Well, I do agree, and there's a little bit of nuance to that. And you are absolutely correct. If somebody has coronary artery disease and, or has peripheral arterial diseases, or has had a heart attack or stroke, there is no doubt that a statin medicine will help to prevent another event and prolong life. However, if you're a person who has not had an event before, there's definitely some nuance. And it's not a black and white question, "Oh, if your cholesterol is this, yes, you should be on a statin." It really is what we call shared decision making.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
So, there are certain conditions that people may have that do strongly predisposed to coronary artery disease. So, for example, if you're somebody who has an LDL cholesterol that is over 190, that very high, you likely have a familial hyperlipidemia. And that's somebody who a statin does have some potent effect in reducing the risk of heart attack and stroke. Somebody who is a diabetic, especially somebody who's a diabetic over the age of 40. That is a strong indication that a statin does provide strong benefit. Now, for others, we calculate risk. And we use a number of things to assess somebody's risk, their age, their blood pressure, whether they're a smoker, whether they're a diabetic, and what their HDL cholesterol and total cholesterol numbers are. In addition, we can use a coronary calcium score, which is obtained through a CT scan, which can also help to determine what our risk is.
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
So, what I will often do, is I'll sit down with my patients and we'll take all this information, and say, "Okay. So, given your numbers, your risk of having a heart attack or a stroke in the next year, or the next 10 years is such and such." And typically, our guideline suggested if the risk is more than 7.5% of having a heart attack or a stroke in the next 10 years, that a statin is a reasonable thing to take to reduce the risk of having a heart attack or a stroke. That said, if somebody's risk is like one or 2% of having a heart attack or stroke in 10 years, in all likelihood, if I prescribe some statin and they take it for 10 years, they're not going to notice any difference at all.
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
But that said, it's important to keep in mind that plaque progresses over the course of years. It's not... It's not a black or white thing. So, plaque will progress, and then at some point, an event will and can occur. So, even some younger patients depending on circumstances, family history, or other issues, I may recommend statin therapy. But again, in somebody who has never had an event, it is correct. A statin is going to be less likely to prevent an event than in somebody who already has had one.
Rip Esselstyn:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). And so, you mentioned, when you're trying to figure out that percent likeliness of a heart attack is what they eat also put into that equation how they eat.
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
That's a great question. And it's actually not part of the equation.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, you got to be kidding me. Don't you think that's probably... I mean, I could be... If the most important thing, I'm right up there with maybe your... If you have, I don't know, a genetic predisposition.
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
No, I think it's important. But that said, I think that the numbers, the blood pressure, cholesterol numbers, and diabetes reflect what somebody's already eating in a lot of ways. But that said, if somebody's willing to change their eating habits, then yeah, that's going to be potent.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Now, when patients come in to see, and they want to get off their statins, or they want to get off their high blood pressure medications, are you supportive of that?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
I really take that on a case by case basis. I often see people who come to me, plant-based or not plant-based, who say, "I don't like take medicines," but then they're cholesterol's sky high, their diabetes is uncontrolled, and their blood pressure is uncontrolled. And I say, "Right now, that's not a reasonable expectation, but if you make some lifestyle changes, I think that we can definitely reduce the number of pills that you're taking." There are patients who I have gotten off of blood pressure medications who have adopted a healthy plant-based diet. So yes, with diet, reducing the number of medicines is definitely possible.
Rip Esselstyn:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). With your patients that are willing to go, do you like saying whole food plant-based? Do you like saying vegan? How do you refer to it?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
That's a great question. I'd say I more often use the term plant-based, but I'll use the term vegan. My book has the word vegan in it on the covers. So, and my hand-
Rip Esselstyn:
Yes, it does.
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Yeah. And my handles on social media are all VeganHeartDoc. So, I don't shy away from the word.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, so are there any foods in particular that you recommend that your patients really plow down?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Well, I'm a big advocate of keeping things simple. I'm a big advocate of getting vegetables, making sure you get several servings of vegetables a day, that fruit is good for you, that fruit should not be demonized. I hear way too often, "Oh my goodness, fruit has sugar. I can't eat fruit." And that's just not the case. You just, if you're a diabetic, you just can't eat an entire watermelon in a serving. You just have to be smart about it. But I really encourage my patients towards your minimally processed plant-based foods, and eating that way as much as possible, getting meals at home as much as possible as well, and minimizing restaurant foods, and minimizing processed foods.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. And do you like them to get like a serving or two of beans a day, or certain number of green leafies? Because my father's just fanatical that his patients get five to six servings of green leafies a day, right? To make those endothelial cells come back to life.
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Right. Well, I think your father sees people who are very, very committed. I see some of those, but I see patients along the whole gamut. And sometimes it's a success if I can get my patient to eat a vegetable every day, just a vegetable. Find one that you like and eat it.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right.
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
And then we go from there.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right. That's funny. You're right. The people that come to my father are... A lot of them are very highly motivated. They've got their back up against a wall. A lot of times it's life or death, and they're willing to do whatever it takes. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Well, so, let's talk for a second about you, right? And you were a heart patient yourself. And I think it kind of informed and made you a little bit more empathetic for what some of your patients go through. What happened to your heart?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Yes. So, I actually did have a heart issue. And to be clear, I don't have coronary artery disease, I had a heart rhythm issue. And I noticed while I was exercising, that I started having these episodes of palpitations. And if I stopped and I would take a deep breath, I could get them to stop. And I ultimately was diagnosed with a condition called super ventricular tachycardia. It's basically an abnormal wiring of the heart where the heart will just beat fast and in an endless loop. And you have to find some way to make it stop. And at the same time I was competing as a triathlete, and it would interfere with my exercises. I'd be climbing a hill, and all of a sudden, my heart would go into this fast rhythm. And there's a couple of ways to treat this. There's medications, which can slow down the heart rate, but again, it slows down the heart rate. And I'm sure from between triathlons and swimming, that when your heart is slow, you can't do the things you want to do. You can't go as fast.
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
And I was concerned that God forbid, what if I started getting this rhythm while I was doing an open water swim in the ocean? I certainly didn't want to be floating in the ocean with this really fast heart rate. So, I sought out a procedure called an ablation, which is a procedure with a catheter that goes inside of the body, into the heart, and finds where that rhythm is, and basically burns it, and gets rid of that pathway. And so, in April 2009, I underwent a catheter ablation for super ventricular tachycardia. It was a same day procedure at the hospital, and I've had no problem since. But one thing that it did give me the appreciation of is what it's like to lie on a cath lab table. As an interventional cardiologist, I'm the one standing next to the table looking at the patient. But I remember what it's like being on that table. And one thing I recall is just how small it felt. And I'm not a big person, I'm not heavy, but I felt like that table was just so small.
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
And I realize that I've got patients who are double my size, who are lying on that table. I can imagine how awkward that feels. And another thing that I gained an appreciation for is just the vulnerability of what it's like to be a patient, to be lying there, to receiving sedation medicine, to not necessarily know what is happening to you. Because as I was on the table, the doctor was struggling a little bit to find where my arrhythmia originated from. And he was giving me medication that every so often, I would just have this feel like, like this sense of doom. It's a medicine called adenosine that we use in cardiology, and we use it fairly frequently. So, now I have an understanding of what that feels like.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh, good.
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
So yeah. Yeah, it was an interesting experience. It gave me an appreciation of what it's like in a lot of ways to be on the other side, but it also so helped me to be able to continue to do triathlons without having to worry that my heart was going to race out of control.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, we'll be right back with Dr. Shenkman, but I want to share another PLANTSTRONG proof podcast review with you. And I'm sharing this one because, believe it or not, I know how easy it is to lose your way, or fall off the plan. And there are moments when you feel like you are absolutely 100% alone on this journey. In fact, I remember being the only firefighter in my firehouse that was eating this way, and living this lifestyle. And I caught endless amounts of flag. And in fact, when I went over to fire station two, and got the whole gang to eat this way, there were people in organizations that were so hell bent on bringing us down that they would send freshly cooked briskets to the engine two fire station. How crazy is that? And I know that they were doing it because they knew that we were onto something special, and obviously, they were threatened. And that's how I want all of you to feel, that you are on to something super special, and don't let anyone take it away from you.
Rip Esselstyn:
With that said, here's a recent podcast review from J Lewis H. Hey Rip. Your podcast is my new favorite. You and your family have such a way about you. There is so much love, compassion, and ease when it comes to the relationship between you guys, and your relationships with food. I was plant-based from 2016 to 2018, and even had a super healthy plant-based pregnancy and birth in that time. Currently, I'm finding my way back. I stopped due to feeling unincluded. Hearing your firemen friends journey, and the fact that he was alone within his firehouse makes me feel like I am not alone, and I can do this. I'm going back to how I love to eat, and I can inspire others as I did before. Thank you for the work that you do, and presenting this podcast in the lovely way that you do.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, I appreciate those words very, very much. Welcome back to the lifestyle. You are not alone. In fact, here at PLANTSTRONG, we have a free community with over 30,000 people who are right there with you along the way. We share recipes, workouts, we lift each other up in support, and we also share our tough moments as well. So, anybody that's out there, if you're feeling alone, consider joining us. You can learn more at community.plantstrong.com.
Rip Esselstyn:
So, I want to talk about this tachycardia, because it seems to me like a lot of people around me are having episodes of tachycardia, they're going in for ablations. Why do you think this is becoming what it seems to me to be a popular procedure now for people? I mean...
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Well, there are a variety of different tachycardias, or fast heart rates arrhythmias. The one that I had, which is called super ventricular tachycardia, is really common amongst all age groups. But there's also an arrhythmia called atrial fibrillation.
Rip Esselstyn:
Correct. Yes.
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Right.
Rip Esselstyn:
That's the one that seems to be very popular.
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Yeah. And I see a lot of that. The traditional risk factors for atrial fibrillation are older age, high blood pressure, diabetes, obesity, sleep apnea, but there actually is a higher incidence of atrial fibrillation amongst endurance athletes. So, if you are an endurance athlete, and you're going and going for hours and hours, going for these long bike rides, these long runs, it does something to the heart that really makes you more likely to have these arrhythmias. So, I think endurance athletes have a fun five times increased risk of having atrial fibrillation compared to somebody who is not. But again, the definition of endurance athlete is not somebody who exercises an hour a day, it's far more than that.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right. So, it's kind of what you're doing these days, right?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Well, that's another topic because since I wrote the book, I had a child. So, I've got a two and a half year old daughter.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh.
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
And so, did that put kind of the brakes on all the training?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
It did, because if I'm going to go out and do a triathlon, like I'm somebody, I want to train for it. I want to be really good at it. And being a mom, and doing what I want to do to be with my daughter, like going out and doing a six hour bike ride on Saturday morning, just isn't in the cards anymore.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
My exercise is 6:30 in the morning. Most days I do a Zoom workout for 30, 45 minutes, and that's it at this point.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Well, it's funny how your priorities change once you have children, right?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
But for a while there, you were doing marathons on Ironman, Ironwomans. You were getting after it, right? You became like this major exerciser.
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Oh yeah. I mean, that was like a passion for me. It was for about 10 years, it almost was like my second job. But it was so much fun, and I just loved the competitive nature of it. I mean, I wasn't necessarily on the podium all the time, but it was just good to get out there, and just see how much I could do, and how I could compare to others. I loved it.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Yeah. No, well, it sounds like you really sank your teeth in it, and you got a good taste of it.
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Absolutely. Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
And now it's the... What's it called? Zumbas? Zumbas in the morning?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Well, oh no, no. Not Zumba. I'm highly uncoordinated. I don't do Zumba. But one of the coaches who I trained with when I was doing triathlons, he owns a gym. And his gym has Zoom workouts at 6:30 in the morning, Monday through Friday, so-
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay. Okay.
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
... I just, I picked that up during the pandemic, and it's just the easiest thing to do. I don't have to go to a gym, I can just log onto my computer, and I just have a coach on the other end who's actually seeing what I'm doing. And there's like seven or eight of us who are working out. So, even though we don't usually see each other in person, we're kind of a crew. It's neat.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Fun, fun. Tell me this, we all have heard of the widow maker, right? The LAD, the left anterior descending artery. Why is it that that seems to be the one that clogs up first and foremost? Is that fair to say or not?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
I don't know that's the most common artery to have issues with, but certainly, it tends to be the most dangerous because it does supply that front wall of the heart. And yeah. So, people who have a heart attack that affects that particular artery, are at higher risk of death and disability.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. In your book, you have a whole chapter on how people can go vegan, plant-based, without going out of their mind. What are some of your tricks?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Some of my tricks? Well, I think it really depends on who the person is. I know a lot of people who, like overnight make the change, and they run with it, and they're doing great. But sometimes, it's easier to make a gradual transition if you're somebody who is accustomed to having dairy and so many things, you look at, for example, what can you replace the dairy with? There's so many plant-based milks that are out there. Just about any dairy product that you have enjoyed, there's some sort of plant-based product that's very similar. And then, things like replacing meat with alternatives, preferably beans, lentils, tofu, or better choices. For some, it's easier to make the transition with some of those so-called fake meats.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right. Right. What about down dining out? Do you have any recommendations about dining out?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
That's a great question. Regardless, I think dining out should be mostly for special occasions, but certainly, go to restaurants where know what's in your food, where you know that preferably you can get stuff with things on the side, or perhaps ask that your food be made without oil, or that have enough things that are on the menu that are going to be healthier.
Rip Esselstyn:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. Makes a lot of sense. You also talk about how people should gracefully face questions. So like, let's say you're out with some friends, and they're like, "Heather?" They probably don't do this anymore because you've been doing this forever, but maybe somebody's like, "Heather, why do you eat that way?" Or whatever. How do you respond? How do you tackle that?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Well, I think I jokingly will answer, "Well, you know I'm a cardiologist, and this is really what's best for the heart, and that's why I do this." I certainly am not going to get into the gory details of animal agriculture over dinner, but I might say something to the extent of, "I know where my food comes from, and I don't want to be the source of that type of cruelty," and I'll limit it to that.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Well, it's nice. You've got that kind of ace in the hole where you're like, "Well, as an interventional cardiologist, if you would've seen what I see, and if you knew the research that I know, you too would eat this way." That's pretty cool. Congrats on-
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Yeah, it helps.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Yeah. What about if you have a setback? What's your recommendation if you have a setback?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
That's a great question. And I see that all the time in my patients. They're doing really well, and then something happens in their life, and good choices go by the wayside. It's just, you sit down, and you realize I can make a change going forward, and this is a new day, and I did it once before, I can get back to it.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Get up every time. As long as you're willing to get up, it will not take you down.
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Indeed.
Rip Esselstyn:
Your last chapter in the book is about kind of going whole heart, and the journey to kind of total wellness, balance, and peace. And you have like maybe 10 different things that you recommend. I don't want you to go through all 10 things, but are there some that stick out to you? And if not, I can cue you up.
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Yeah. Cue me up here.
Rip Esselstyn:
All right. Happy to do it. So, you recommend that people spend time in nature, which is something that's very important to me.
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Yes, yes.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yes.
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Yeah. Yeah. I think that getting outside, and doing things outdoors, getting some sunlight, that's something that can help refresh you, and get you going. So, yeah, I'm a big proponent of exercising outdoors. I love getting out on the trails, going for a good trail hike or a trail run.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Yeah. I like to say that getting out, and doing some form of exercise is almost like a little mini rebirth of sorts, right? And it resets your mind, your body, just your breathing, everything. It's a great reset. You talk about committing, and I like that word, you say, commit to sleep and rest. And then, what are some of the things that you recommend people do to ensure a better night's sleep?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Well, I think it's important that you get a good night's sleep because sleep is actually important for controlling blood pressure, for helping us to be well rested, to make good choices. And also, it may reduce the risk of heart attack and stroke. Having a good sleep routine is an important, so winding down towards the end of the day, having a routine before bedtime, limiting screen time, at least an hour before bedtime, and trying to be consistent about sleep time and wake up time.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Even on the weekends.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Some of the other things that you mentioned that I completely agree with are get some black curtains, make sure it's dark in the room, temperature, get that temperature somewhere like... I like 66 to 67. Actually, last night, I had the window open, and it was 32 degrees outside so, it got down into the 40s.
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Wow.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Felt like a black bear hibernating. But yeah, all those little things, right? Getting the right pillow, mask if you need it. I love having a white noise, right? That's very, very soothing, and kind of gets me into that sleep state. So, couldn't agree with you more on all that stuff. What about meditation? Is that something that you practice?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Meditation's something I probably should practice. And I dabble in here and there, but it's something I should likely do more. But meditation is definitely good. It's been demonstrated that it does actually lower blood pressure a bit. So, having a couple of minutes where you sit quietly and clear your mind is definitely something that's good to do.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Well, we've talked a lot about exercise and how much you love it, tell us why exercise is good for the heart, and then also, how it is a very effective tool at combating depression.
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Yes. I think exercise is so good for so many reasons. It naturally helps to lower blood pressure, it increases insulin sensitivity, so it helps to naturally lower glucose levels. It's helpful for getting a good restful sleep if you exercise earlier in the day as well.
Rip Esselstyn:
There's a lot of people out there, especially given what's going on in the last two years with COVID and stuff, that have some very negative thought patterns going on in their minds. How do you suggest people break negative thought patterns?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
That's a tough one. And I see a lot in my practice, people who have, with the pandemic, they have just unfortunately gained weight because they aren't going out and shopping for their own groceries as much anymore. And they're ordering in food, and the gym that they used to go to, they're not comfortable going to. So, they haven't been exercising. And their health has gone by the wayside as a consequence. But I think that, again, it's a matter of recommitting and finding ways to do the things that you need to for your health though let's say you're not comfortable going to the gym. If you got a pair of walking shoes, start going for walks. Being outside is exceedingly low risk when it comes to catching an infection such as the coronavirus. And rather than ordering Grubhub from takeout places, maybe order your groceries online, because those can be delivered too. So, there's ways of being healthy in spite of everything that's going on.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Have you noticed at all, any relation between COVID and it's effects on the heart?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
There definitely has been an issue with COVID and the heart, especially earlier in the pandemic when people weren't vaccinated, and we were seeing people who were coming in who were just very, very sick. The incidence of heart attack and people who had COVID was very high. I can think of a dozen or so patients who I took care of who had acute heart attacks and clots in their heart that we took care of. And a lot of these patients who had COVID and had heart attacks just didn't do very well, unfortunately. But also, there's myocarditis. Yes, we know that you can get myocarditis from the vaccine. It's a low like thing that it can happen. But from the actual coronavirus infection, you definitely can get a myocarditis.
Rip Esselstyn:
What is that? What is myocarditis?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Myocarditis is an inflammation of the heart that can take some time to recover from.
Rip Esselstyn:
And when you're seeing this myocarditis, is it in... And you think that it's related to COVID, is it in younger people that you typically aren't seeing it in?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Well, myocarditis with coronavirus infection, I think we see it in all ages. The myocarditis that occurs with the vaccine actually tends to be in men between the ages of 15 and 30. It's fairly uncommon, but it is there. I took care of a grant total of one patient who had vaccine associated myocarditis who's an 18 year old, and was in the hospital, spent a day there, but in the long run, he did great. Really no untoward effects.
Rip Esselstyn:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
So, the myocarditis that comes with acute COVID infection is unfortunately, it's more significant, and more of a health issue than the myocarditis that comes from the vaccine.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right. So, the one with the vaccine, then, was it fair to say that you recover from it a little more rapidly?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Yes, definitely recover more rapidly.
Rip Esselstyn:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). You say you have a two and a half year old, did you say daughter?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Yes, daughter.
Rip Esselstyn:
Nice. What's her name?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Her name is Ava.
Rip Esselstyn:
Ava. And is Ava plant-based like mama?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Oh, she most so certainly is.
Rip Esselstyn:
Uh-huh (affirmative). And are you married?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
I am engaged.
Rip Esselstyn:
You're engaged. Got you.
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
My partner and I... Yeah, we've been together for like almost six years. I mean, we've lived together, and we planned on having a daughter together. I mean, the whole issue of engage versus married it's I don't know. It feels anti climactic. But yeah, we're engaged.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Beautiful. And what is his name?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
His name, name is Ray.
Rip Esselstyn:
And is Ray plant-based?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Ray is not plant-based. But what we eat in the home is, for the most part, plant-based.
Rip Esselstyn:
Uh-huh (affirmative). So, is there any tension there with the food and how you're going to be raising Ava?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
There really hasn't been tension. He recognizes that plant-based eating is healthier. And it's funny, we go out and some of his friends will give me garbage about, "Haha, you're a vegan." And he'll actually sometimes step in. Often, he steps in and he says, "Well, you know it's a healthier way to eat. It makes sense." So, he recognizes that plant-based eating is healthier. So, it hasn't been hard in raising our daughter that way. And she's got a broad range of things that she likes to eat. It's funny, she loves sweet potatoes, she loves tofu.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
She loves avocado. So, it's been a joy. It's been fairly easy.
Rip Esselstyn:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Does she like oatmeal?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
She's kind of plus minus on the oatmeal.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right. Neutral. What about you? What'd you have for breakfast today?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
What did I have for breakfast? I had a soy latte that I made before my workout, and I had a banana with some PB fit, which is-
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh yeah.
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Yeah. It's not quite peanut butter, it's basically de-fatted peanut. So it's entire in protein, and lower in fat. So, I put that on my banana. And then after my workout, I had had some soy yogurt, and I had a waffle.
Rip Esselstyn:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Was that a homemade waffle, or a store bought waffle?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
It was a store bought waffle. I don't have the time to make waffles from scratch.
Rip Esselstyn:
"I'm an interventional cardiologist dammit Rip. Cut me some slack." Yeah. Yeah. But I'm sure it was a vegan waffle.
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Of course.
Rip Esselstyn:
Of course. Of course. Yes. Yes, of course. So now, when you're at the hospital, what do you do for lunch? Do you bring lunch? Are you able to eat in the cafeteria there?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
It's a great question. One of my hospitals typically actually does have a plant-based option more often than not, but just to be on the safe side of thing, because neither of my hospitals has a terribly robust salad bar part, particularly now since the pandemic. I used to be able to get a good salad at my hospitals, but they just don't want people with fingers, and your tongues, and whatnot. So, I just make it easier on myself. I just bring my food. Makes it easier.
Rip Esselstyn:
Uh-huh (affirmative). So, that means you kind of... So, is it fair to say you usually figure out a way to make dinner at home, and then you take leftovers the next day?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Often, I'll bring leftovers, or I've got the same salad that I like to eat every day. So, I'll just throw that together in a Tupperware and take that to go. And that's real easy and I don't have to worry about heating it up.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. What's that salad consist of? I want to know.
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Okay. So, it's got the basics, the lettuce, the tomato oil-
Rip Esselstyn:
Romaine? Is it romaine butter? What kind of lettuce?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
It's like a baby mixed greens salad.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay.
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
So, a little mix of things. Some arugula, some romaine, some of the other stuff. And then I like heirloom tomatoes. Our farmer's markets here have the best heirloom tomatoes in Southern California. So, I like to cut one of those up. Cucumber, carrot, one of the things that I maybe a little quirky about me is I love putting sweet potatoes in my salads. So, I always have like a baked sweet, preferably, a Japanese sweet potato, just because they're a little bit sweeter. So, I'll put that my salad. I put avocado-
Rip Esselstyn:
Purple Japanese sweet potato, or a white one?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
A white one. The purple are good too, but I like the white ones better.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
And-
Rip Esselstyn:
I don't think that's quirky at all. I think that's absolutely perfect that you do that. Yes. And then what else?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
And then I'll just some form of either beans, or tofu, or there's something from the farmer's market here in Southern California, it's called tempeh, and it's like a brown rice black bean textured protein that's got a little bit of sweetness to it. That goes really good in the salad. And then a little bit of meso dressing. Oil free meso dressing.
Rip Esselstyn:
Hmm. Is that like a store bought meso dressing?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
I get it from the farmer's market.
Rip Esselstyn:
The farmer's market. All right. Nicely done. Nicely done. Man, you know what? Dr. Heather Shenkman, this has been a lot of fun. I really appreciate you-
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
It has.
Rip Esselstyn:
... coming on the podcast. Let me ask you this. Before you go in and see another patient, is there anything that you want to tell the listeners that I've forgotten to ask you, or is burning on your mind?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
No, but I just want to let people know that I have an office in Tarzana, California, and I see patients both in person, and via telemedicine. If you're local, I would love to see you in person in my office if you would like advice on your heart health. If you are within the state of California, as that's the only state that I have a medical license in, I can actually provide you a telemedicine consultation. If that's something that interests you, way to best reach me would be my office phone number. I've got a website for myself in my office. It's www.drheathershenkman.com. And that's a great way to reach me. I'm also active on Twitter and on Instagram, I handle there in both places is @VeganHeartDoc, and I also have a Facebook page for my practice. So, I'm out there.
Rip Esselstyn:
Nice. We'll be sure to put all that in the show notes-
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Great.
Rip Esselstyn:
... for people to access. So, that'd be great. Well, Heather, thank you again for coming on the PLANTSTRONG Podcast. I'm glad we finally nailed down a date. I know that we had two previous dates in mind and for whatever reason, we weren't able to make those work. So, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And all the best. Give my best to Ray and Ava, right?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Yes, exactly. Yes.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Good. Good. All right. Hey, so, can you sign off with me, and repeat after me?
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Sure.
Rip Esselstyn:
All right. Peace.
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Peace.
Rip Esselstyn:
Engine two.
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Engine two.
Rip Esselstyn:
Keep it PLANTSTRONG.
Dr. Heather Shenkman:
Keep it PLANTSTRONG.
Rip Esselstyn:
Thank you. Thank you, Dr. Heather Shenkman. Thank you for the work that you're doing as a mother, as an athlete, and of course, as a plant-based cardiologist. You don't just talk the talk, you walk the walk as well. For resources on today's episode, simply visit the episode page at plantstrongpodcast.com. We'll see y'all next week. And until then, keep it PLANTSTRONG.
Rip Esselstyn:
The PLANTSTRONG Podcast team includes Carrie Barrett, Laurie Kortowich, Ami Mackey, Patrick Gavin, and Wade Clark. This season is dedicated to all of those courageous true seekers who weren't afraid to look through the lens with clear vision and hold firm to a higher truth. Most notably my parents, Dr. Caldwell B. Esselstyn Jr. And Ann Crile Esselstyn. Thanks for listening.
