#156: Dr. Dawn Mussallem - This Plant-Based Physician Survived Two Death Sentences To Become a Real Life Wonder Woman
Dr. Dawn Mussallem finishes her marathon one year after her heart transplant
Dr. Dawn Mussallem is a board-certified Lifestyle Medicine Physician at the Mayo Clinic Jacoby Center for Breast Health where she works with breast cancer patients during and after their diagnosis to heal and thrive using the pillars of lifestyle medicine alongside their conventional cancer treatments.
Dawn has many remarkable stories of patient recovery, but the biggest recovery story of all is her own. You see, in addition to being a physician, teacher, wife, and mother, Mussallem is also a cancer survivor, 2021 heart transplant recipient, and as of February 2022, she's also a marathon finisher!
It's a story you simply have to hear to believe and her passion and positivity will leave a lasting impact. Not only does she acknowledge her family and faith in this decades-long journey, but she also credits her whole foods plant-based diet with her ability to thrive and train with a renewed sense of purpose and boundless energy. It's a life force she brings both to her life and the lives of the patients she works with on a daily basis.
About Dawn Mussallem, DO
Dr. Mussallem is a consultant in the Department of General Internal Medicine at Mayo Clinic and is an Assistant Professor of Medicine. She is a diagnostic breast specialist at The Robert and Monica Jacoby Center for Breast Health and serves as Medical Director for Mayo Clinic Florida Lyndra P. Daniel Center for Humanities in Medicine. Dr. Mussallem is double-board certified, including a board certification in Lifestyle Medicine. She has over 25 years of patient-centered clinical wellness experience with international recognition in the field of breast medicine, lifestyle medicine, integrative oncology, cancer prevention, and cancer survivorship, and a unique personal experience as a stage IV cancer patient diagnosed 3 months into medical school, as well as a heart transplant recipient. She shares that her journey as a patient cultivated her boundless energy and deep purpose to help guide patients toward renewed vitality. In 2015, she founded the Integrative Medicine and Breast Health Program at Mayo Clinic Florida, a patient-centered program that works with breast cancer patients during and after a breast cancer diagnosis, introducing them early on to the importance of lifestyle optimization and evidence-based mind-body practices alongside conventional cancer treatments with a goal to reframe the cancer diagnosis as a “teacher of life,” leading patients to discover renewed vitality through healthier living.
Episode Resources
Mayo Clinic News Network Story on Dawn
Dawn's Journey from Cancer Survivor to Heart Transplant Recipient
Running to a New Beat - Heart transplant recipient to mark 1-year anniversary with marathon
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Rip Esselstyn:
Hang onto your hats, hang onto your kale. It is that time of the year. We have just announced our 11th annual plant stock weekend, and this year's celebration will be virtual, and it will take place from September 9th to the 11th. And you better bet your bottom butternut squash that we are focused on food this year from start to finish. And we've assembled an absolute rockstar lineup of chefs and cookbook authors to demonstrate their favorite recipes so you can get inspired to get in the kitchen and eat more whole plants. don't miss the chance to join us live. I will be in Cleveland with my parents, Anne Esselstyn and you know, my rale dazzle sister Jane, and we cannot wait to connect with you. Visit plant strong.com/plantstock to sign up today.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
And so I woke up and my whole body was just like beating against the bed. And I had never felt this before. I was like, oh my gosh, what is going on? Everything's beat... And I heard this whistling sound. And it was my hair that was just brushing ever so subtly. I don't know if anyone else would ever have heard anything. I mean, it probably happens to anyone with a little bit of long hair, but they probably aren't aware of it. But I just have such full awareness of everything. This is the gift of everything I've been through.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
And it was like singing. And it was just like this harmonious sound. And my whole body was warm for the first time in so many years that it was just like this immense sense of being fully alive. I describe it as my cells were oscillating at this higher frequency. And I think this is very cool. And there's something with this that has to do with whole food plant-based nutrition I think too. Which, this may sound a little weird to people, but it was the coolest thing ever. I was alive, and more alive than anyone who's ever experienced. And I haven't lost that.
Rip Esselstyn:
I'm Rip Esselstyn and welcome to the plant strong podcast. The mission at plant strong is to further the advancement of all things within the plant-based movement. We advocate for the scientifically proven benefits of plant-based living, and envision a world that universally understands, promotes, and prescribes plants as a solution to empowering your health, enhancing your performance, restoring the environment, and becoming better guardians to the animals we share this planet with. We welcome you wherever you are on your plant strong journey. And I hope that you enjoy the show.
Rip Esselstyn:
All right my plant strong brothers and sisters, cousins, one and all. I know that you are going to thoroughly enjoy today's conversation with literally one of the most positive, inspiring, and uplifting people that I have ever met. And I am not talking about my mother Anne. And I know that it sounds like I must be exaggerating, but I am not. Dr. Dawn Mussallem is a board certified lifestyle medicine physician. She works at the Mayo Clinic Jacobi Center for breast health, where she works hand in hand with breast cancer patients and their oncologists and other specialists to heal and thrive using the pillars of lifestyle medicine.
Rip Esselstyn:
Dawn has so many remarkable stories of patient recovery. But the biggest recovery story of them all is her own. One where she herself, time and again, has had to put her own medicine in motion and practice what she preaches. It's a journey with so many twists and turns, you'll have to hear it to believe it. And some would say, her life so far is a marathon of sorts. And you'll understand what I mean when we start to dig in. So, let's meet a real life wonder woman, Dr. Dawn Mussallem.
Rip Esselstyn:
All right, Dawn, I am... There is no place I would rather be right now than here talking to you. And I want you to know that in researching your story and the absolute harrowing, and I mean, harrowing rollercoaster ride that you have been on in the second half of your life. I want to hear all about it. And I can't believe that you are still smiling and you have this insane love of life. And I think it's a Testament to just your spirit that I just want to, I want to understand it and I want to tackle it. So thank you for being with me today.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
Thank you Rip. I am extremely excited to be here for so many reasons. And you are right, I have just this immense level of love and energy for life, but I've always had that. So, that's what we're going to talk about.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yes we are. So what time did you wake up this morning?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
3:54. But that's because I was so excited.
Rip Esselstyn:
3:54, but what time do you usually set the alarm clock for?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
4:07.
Rip Esselstyn:
4:07. So you were officially... If I could do the math on that, about 13 minutes so excited that that's how much earlier you got up. Wow. So, why in the world are you getting up at 4:07? Do you have to run or what's up?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
I have always gotten up at four in the morning, my entire life, even as a young girl, probably not quite that early. But even as a young girl, I would often wake up at 5:00 AM. My family, we were all morning people. We were the kind of people that would drive everyone else nuts. But yeah, our lights were on in our house super bright and early. So that is just how I have been since day one. And I love it. I love the morning. So I try to get my workouts in the morning, but I usually wake up and I get work done. I have a lot of different projects that I love, and so it's quiet time. I review my patients for the morning. And then I usually work out like about an hour or two before I need to see patients.
Rip Esselstyn:
Man. And so what time are you usually in the hospital seeing patients?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
You know, it's different for me now? So my medical practice is a hundred percent virtual.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh my goodness gracious. Do you like that?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
It's so interesting. So I love it. So, my practice at this point is a hundred percent lifestyle medicine in the cancer center, working with breast cancer patients. And so they're not just local patients. Most of my patients actually are from out of town, out of state. And a lot of them are even from out the country. And so it works out wonderful, not just for me, but for the patients. So oftentimes I'm seeing patients I have on my running shorts, I still have them on my running shoes. And I may have changed my top, or I may just have wore a colorful top to work out in. And it works out good because they understand it's the lifestyle and that's what we're going to be talking about. So, it's been great. Or, I can have a patient, if someone cancels I can go get on the bike or do whatever it is. Or if I want to go get my sweet potato, I can go downstairs and get my sweet potato. I can kind of just really live a healthy life and work virtual and it's wonderful. So I enjoy it.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow. Now, when did this whole telemedicine take over for you? Was it during COVID that you transitioned to this? Has it been two, three years?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
Very interesting. Well, it has a lot to do with my story, how I actually transitioned. But COVID for me was actually a silver lining, because we were trying to figure out capabilities for me to do virtual work, but the billing was very complicated until COVID. And so now with COVID it has been seamless with my ability to do virtual work and bill insurance companies, like I always have with complete reimbursement. It's been amazing. And even though I work in that lifestyle medicine arena for cancer patients, I have, knock on wood, not had any issues with insurance reimbursement, which has been really rewarding to get these patients the help they are desiring and they're seeking out. I mean, they're thirsty for this sort of discussion with a medical professional to learn more. There's so much out there for them. There's so many great books now, but it really helps them to have it individualized when we get to meet one on one. Especially with their particular disease or the treatment that they're going to be receiving, since it isn't in the breast cancer center.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. So how do these patients find you? I mean, is it through the Mayo clinic?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
It is-
Rip Esselstyn:
And then they refer these patients to you?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
Yeah, it's interesting. So early on in my career, I was actually a hospital physician, and I loved that. And in 2015, the director of the breast center had approached me and asked me if I would be interested in transitioning over to the breast center to kind of help to kind of reorganize the program. And at that time I also had asked if I could potentially create an integrative medicine and health program within the breast center. And it was built on a foundation of lifestyle medicine. And so that's exactly what I did.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
So since 2015, 2016 in the breast center, I was doing a little bit of lifestyle medicine. But at that time, there really wasn't the staffing for me to do it a hundred percent, and the patients just weren't quite as aware of it at that time. And so I would say from 2015, 2016, up until about 2018, it was like slowly, the demand started getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And my confidence in the practice and how it would kind of flow also grew. And it was around that time that I also got board certified in lifestyle medicine, even though I had always practiced this sort of medicine in my career, it just, the American college of lifestyle medicine really did afford me a little bit more of a formal approach to the patient. I always, prior to that was a little bit hesitant, honestly, to go whole food plant based with my patients. I would go almost there, but I would be too scared to push too hard on it. But following my board certification, I became very encouraging for my patients to go in that direction if they were willing to.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
And so there are just so many amazing stories every day. I mean, honestly, I wake up at four in the morning super excited to start my work day, because my patients give me so much energy. I think I give them a lot of energy, but they give me back so much energy. These individuals are so incredibly inspiring. A lot of them are coming in already doing a lot of things pretty correct. But one thing that I do see in my practice is some people have such turbulence about eating healthy. They just don't have a healthy relationship about it.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
And so it's really exciting to be able to be there with them and teach them kind of the love and harmony and how they can kind of really use that food as a springboard to ignite that vitality. And it's so hopeful for them, because in that same department where they're seeing their breast surgeon, their breast radiation oncologist, their medical oncologist, they're able to meet with me. And we're able to talk about how they live and how they can live and flourish both during chemotherapy and after. And that's what's just been so incredibly exciting. And I had some flourish stories.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh, I can't wait to hear about some of them. What's interesting to me is that I don't think it was too long ago that the Mayo clinic was not pointing patients to a whole food plant based diet, because, and this may sound not correct. But what I heard from a person that went to the Mayo clinic, was that he asked his doctor, I've heard that a whole food plant based diet is the best thing for what I'm recovering for. I think it was heart surgery. And the doctor said, yes, it is. But that is not the protocol that we're pushing at the Mayo clinic. And this is probably back in 2012, 13. Right? They saw it as a little bit too preventative, a little bit too extreme. So, I'm really glad to hear that the tides are changing when it comes to that.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
You're exactly right. And I remember going to the American Institute for Cancer Research, a meeting, this was probably, I think it was around 2018. And that was exactly one greeting I got is, I'm surprised you're here. Mayo clinic doesn't seem like the type that's as interested in prevention and lifestyle. It seems like they're really just doing these really advanced therapies. And we are very motivated to have that different image. And the integrative medicine program has been a part of Mayo clinic for over 20 years. So it's always been there. It's just, a lot of patients come, they receive that world class curative therapy that wasn't offered anywhere else in the world. And then they go back home without realizing we do have these services when patients ask.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
However, the doctors have to have awareness. And the doctors have to have some invested interest and belief in this too. So what I am super excited about is, I am currently starting in August of this year, starting a lifestyle medicine residency curriculum across the enterprise. So we have three residency, or we have three clinics. We have Mayo Clinic Rochester, Mayo Clinic Jacksonville, Florida, Mayo Clinic Arizona. So we are going to offer as an elective opportunity for all of our residents to have the opportunity to learn this curriculum, which will go deep into whole food plant based nutrition, exercise, social connection, stress management. So excited, but the residents are excited. So it's really amazing to see the enthusiasm and the interest that the residents have. So, I'm really blessed to be able to be a part of starting that program and working directly with these young doctors to kind of change that foundational thought process.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh, that is so heartwarming to hear that, that these residents are learning about this. It sounds like maybe they're embracing it. I know Dr. Clapper, do you know Dr. Michael clapper at all?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
Yes.
Rip Esselstyn:
He is involved with a nonprofit now called moving medicine forward. And all he does is go out and visit medical schools and talk to the medical students. So to hear about that, to hear about this with the residents, it is absolutely heartwarming. I love it. Dawn, we need to get to your story because we could just talk about this forever. But when in your life did you know that Dawn Mussallem wants to be a doctor?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
I love this question. So, okay, I was like four, five years old. And when people say, what do you want to be when you grow up? I would say, I want to live to be a hundred, and I want to be a doctor. Because I knew I would have to like kind of learn something. I loved helping people, helping animals, the whole nine yards. So it was a few years after that I just became enamored with Willard Scott on the today show 100th birthday celebration. I mean, I would sit there Indian style, in my little night nightgown just watching these vital 100 year old people. So at an early age, my family was actually really healthy. The family that wakes up early, we ate healthy food really early too. That's probably why we had so much energy, all of us. I have the best family.
Rip Esselstyn:
But weren't eating plants back then were you?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
Mm-hmm.
Rip Esselstyn:
You were? When you were four, five and six?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
Oh yeah. My family was super healthy at a young age. I would say one of my favorite childhood memories was going to the whole food store. And going into the refrigeration section where you would open it, and you would smell the oatmeal and the greens. And so, yes, so we were not whole food plant only at the time, but we were whole food plant predominant, but we would have some fish and we would have some chicken. But we had our own butcher, we had someone where we got that meat fresh if we ever ate it.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
But then I was vegetarian in high school. I would have some yogurt. And then I was vegan in college for some points of that. And then as I was going through college, I got active in fitness contests. And then a personal trainer kind of corrupted my brain. It's like, you need more protein. You're never going to put on muscle. You're never going to win contests if you don't get more muscle. So guess what? This girl started to eat a lot of chicken and I started to eat beef and stuff like that. And so that's what kind of happened. So I had these little short window of time when I didn't eat as healthy.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. So let me ask you this, you mentioned Willard Scott and how you wanted to live to be a hundred. And so were you a fan of the Smucker's jar and the... So that was your goal, right? To be somebody that's on the Smucker's jar?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
To be on the Smucker's jar.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. So don't you think, looking back at it, because I used to love that segment too. That that was the most brilliant marketing campaign ever by Smucker's? I mean, who doesn't want to have some Smucker's after seeing somebody that's a hundred on the jars? It's like, oh yeah, you associate living long with Smucker's.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
It was great marketing. And just so... And I love that you remember it too, because I share that story. And so many people, they kind of look at me like, I don't know what she's talking about. I'm like, how do you not know this? It was so impressionable.
Rip Esselstyn:
Totally.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
And when I was young, I would read all about Linus Pauling. I had that book, life extensions, that is like a junior high, high school I was reading this stuff. I was a big runner back then. And, I joke, when my friends were eating bread of wonder, you know what I mean? I was eating food for life, like sprouted bread. And I just, I love this stuff. It was just right up my alley. It energized me. And so it was always something I was just really interested in.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
So, I studied nutrition and exercise physiology in undergrad. And when I went to medical school, I first went to naturopathic school with the intention on doing very, very holistic care. But it turned out to be a little bit more of an alternative focus than I really wanted. So I transitioned to osteopathic medical school, where I really had a strong foundation of nutrition education in my medical school. I was very fortunate to have that. So that's how I ended up becoming a doctor, I ended up going through to osteopathic school, and I did my clinical trainings at Mayo Clinic as part of the osteopathic school in Arizona, and then eventually transitioned to Mayo Clinic Florida.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. So now at the age of 26, you got diagnosed with stage four cancer, if I'm not mistaken. Right?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
Yup.
Rip Esselstyn:
And you were in medical school at the time, is that correct?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
I was. So, a few weeks into medical school... And again, I was running, I was climbing mountains every day, very, very fit. And I was eating my healthy diet at that time. I was away from the fitness competitions. And I noticed that I just couldn't perform the way I used to. So I would get a little shortness of breath, little cough, what is going on. Saw a doctor. He said, it's nothing. It's asthma. Saw another doctor, symptoms getting worse, same thing. Nothing, it's asthma. Finally, saw another doctor. And that doctor's like, it's in your head. This happens to all medical students.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
And it just, a few days later I'm walking up the stairs after class going to my apartment and I collapsed. I went to the emergency room, they did a chest x-ray, and there was a huge mass in my chest, enormous mass. And it had collapsed my left lung. It was pushing on my major vessels. And so they had to take me to urgent surgery. They did the preliminary pathology. And I'll never forget it, because I woke up and one of the medical students who was in my medical school was there crying over me, just sobbing. I'm thinking, ugh, this is not a good sign.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
And then the doctor came in the room, and this was actually Thanksgiving day, November 23rd, 2000. So the doctor came in the room and he was on call. And he was kind of a grumpy doctor. He wasn't very nice. And I remember him just kind of throwing this diagnosis out there. I'm like, how is this possible? I have really lived out in my... My dad's next to me, who here he's like always given me this path of health for life. And his 26 year old daughter, who's in a few months into medical school gets diagnosed with cancer. And they go on and they say this is stage four cancer based on the imaging and the size of the tumor and the extension and the other places that it was showing its involvement.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
And so it just took us back. And I remember them saying that if I wasn't going to receive treatment that I would have months to live. I needed treatment and they needed to start it immediately. And then the next thing out of his mouth was I needed to quit medical school. And I'm like, he obviously does not know me. So, that really triggered this autonomous motivation to steer my own ship. And I was like, thank goodness he was on call. And my real oncologist came in the following day. And then we got a really good treatment plan. He was really optimistic and upbeat. But I started chemo just a few short days thereafter. There wasn't time for fertility preservation. There wasn't really time to think about it. It was just like, okay, this is what we have to do. I want to live, I'm going to stay in medical school. We're going to do part of this my way. We'll do part of it your way. And so started treatment.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow. So you came up with a plan. And then you also, in addition to the chemo, did you also have anything else, like radiation or bone marrow transplant or stuff like that?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
Yeah. Great question. So they did four cycles of what's called chopped chemotherapy, which is very high intensity chemotherapy. The first cycle was in the hospital, the remaining ones I was able to do in the outpatient setting. After that, they had talked with me and my family, letting us know that because of the stage of the cancer and how advanced it was, because it had gone on for those several months that people just weren't really paying attention to it, the doctors that I was seeing. That I would need a bone marrow transplant. So that meant more chemotherapy. That was very high dose, that was given to you in the hospital. So I was in the hospital for a month. And then that's followed by a bone marrow transplant, where they pull your immune cells all the way down to zero. And then they give you back cells to give you back a healthy immune system. And then that was followed by radiation therapy for two months.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
But what was fascinating... And I'm sure a lot of listeners are like, okay, maybe this isn't the best person to have on here. She lives healthy her whole life and she ends up with cancer. But I'll tell you, I've had people say, how do you think you got cancer? And I think I know how I got cancer. As a little girl, maybe not little. But, when I was in elementary school, there was a creek behind her house that I would play in all the time, like hours I would be in this creek. And it was a runoff from corn. Where I'm quite certain there was probably pesticides.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
And we don't know in life. I mean, things happen. I mean, quite frankly for me, cancer was the biggest teacher of life. I mean the post traumatic growth I experienced for this was immense. It's phenomenal. I would never trade in what I went through. So it's all okay. But what I will say is this, during my chemotherapy I would see other patients sit in these big chairs, there's other people around you. They were so sick. I was not sick. I was still running. I was still mountain climbing. I was climbing Camelback mountain twice a day with hemoglobins of like five.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
And I felt great. My senses were heightened. When someone would see a green tree, no, no. My green tree was like vibrant. It was just, wow. So my life experience was so heightened during that window of time, it really taught me how to live. And that's where I think we can take adversity. And when we read about post traumatic growth, people may or may not really understand what that means. But there is such opportunity to learn from adversity. And we just have to accept that, we can't run from it. We need to truly accept that. And so that was really, like I said, such a teacher of life.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, you've had many teachers, because of all the experiences you've been through, and we're going to get to all those. Now stage four. What type of cancer was it that you were diagnosed with?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
Yeah, it was a diffuse B cell non-Hodgkin's lymphoma.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay. And do you know, what were the statistics? At stage four with this, what are the chances that you're going to be alive in two years?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
Yeah. So one of my friends, who actually ended up being my husband who was at my bedside, asked that question. I was like mm. You know, I didn't want numbers, because I really didn't want to hear that. And I think to this day, I think a lot of patients that I see get frustrated when they hear numbers. And so I actually talk to patients. I say if you don't want to hear those numbers, just let your doctor know. Sometimes the doctors feel obligated to give you numbers. They don't have to give you those numbers. If the numbers are going to help you, then great. But if the numbers are going to frustrate you, then why even hear it? But this particular doctor said, I would have three months.
Rip Esselstyn:
Three months to live?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
But that was without treatment. And so, I of course was going to do the treatment. But the problem was is this particular non-Hodgkin's lymphoma has a very high chance of coming back very quickly. And when it comes back, they cannot cure it. They cannot effectively treat it. They're kind of out of options. At least back then. I had my treatment before they had the rituximab, which is something that's really been groundbreaking for many non-Hodgkin's lymphoma patients. But that wasn't an available treatment for me at the time. So I was kind of stuck with just a traditional chemotherapy that just didn't do a really good job at treating this cancer. So the mortality rate was actually quite high at the five year mark following a diagnosis like this.
Rip Esselstyn:
Mm-hmm. When you say quite high what's that mean?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
I honestly don't remember. If I'm remembering correctly, it was like 50 to 60% survival rate. So pretty-
Rip Esselstyn:
So this happened. All this took place in 2000, is that correct?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
Yeah, 2000. 2000, I had my bone marrow transplant 2001.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay. And you pulled through it. And two years later you're... Is this in the rear view mirror for you now?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
Completely. So, after I was down with treatment, I was cured. I mean, it felt amazing for me to get that pet scan or... It was gallium scans, and it was eventually pet scans, negative, negative, negative, everything was great cured. So it was like, miracles happen, this cancer's gone. I was vital. I felt great. I stayed in medical school. Didn't miss a day.
Rip Esselstyn:
Incredible. And then what happens in roughly June of 2003?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
Yeah. So my husband and I, the one who asked about, how long does she have? He felt so bad about the three months he got married to me, of course, right. So we got married in-
Rip Esselstyn:
Was he a physician?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
No, he was not a physician.
Rip Esselstyn:
No. Okay.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
So in 2003, I started not to feel good. And thought for sure the cancer was back, because I was kind of nauseated and I was losing weight. So did some tests, turns out I'm pregnant so the doctor was wrong. So I was actually able to get pregnant.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow. You were fertile.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
And my husbands' like, what. How is this possible? I'm like, oh. I don't think he was planning on that. He's actually older than me, so I think he definitely was not planning on that, but it was amazing. We were just so blessed. So I gave birth to my daughter in May of 2003.
Rip Esselstyn:
What was her name?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
Sophia.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh my goodness gracious. That's my daughter's name.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
Is it really?
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
Oh, I love it. Love it. It was my grandmother's name too. So we named her after my grandmother. I just love that name. It was such a miracle. And I remember the childbirth was extremely hard, and I thought this is weird. And I'm thinking, women don't really complain of this much. Women are my hero. They were my new superhero. No more Smucker's jars, vitality heroes. These women that give babies, these are my heroes, right. So difficult the childbirth. So a few weeks go by after I delivered my daughter, and I couldn't even hold her. My mom was in town. She would have to bathe there for me. I could do nothing. So I was actually quite worried cancer was back. And that kind of always hangs over your shoulder. Like could this cancer come back.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
So I went to the emergency room, and the doctor came in the room and he looked more sick than I think I actually felt. And he told me that they needed to do additional testing, but that my lung was filled with fluid. And so it'd automatically think that it was going to be cancer again. So they continued to do additional testing. They did an ultrasound of the heart, and they told me that the heart was only pumping at 8%. And so I was diagnosed, I was in cardiogenic shock. I was diagnosed with cardiomyopathy. Thought from a few things, this did develop right after I had childbirth. So there was a small possibility that maybe it was from postpartum cardiomyopathy. But the more likely thing was the fact that I had radiation right to my chest.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
And that heart was really wrapped around all my great vessels. So when I had radiation, they knew it was going to go to the chest. But again, they're treating stage four cancer. It's almost like we just want to get this girl to live three years, maybe five years. I mean, that was kind of their goal. I don't know that... You don't worry about the late stream effects when you're trying to save a life. And so to look back, I would never have not had chemotherapy. I would never have not had that radiation, because that really is what cured the lymphoma.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
But, unfortunately I was one of the few that did end up with this cardiomyopathy from the treatments that I received. And maybe the childbirth also continued to push that forward a little bit more. It may have been a lot of strain on the heart so close to that time when I had had the chemotherapy. So I'm diagnosed with heart failure and the doctor came in the room and, this is my biggest nightmare, right. Because actually it was so interesting, when I was diagnosed with cancer. I thought, oh, thank God I don't have asthma. I could not live with a chronic disease. Because after the cancer treatment I could get back. And you know, once I had my first chemo, I could start running it... I felt great because I got my life back. Now I'm being diagnosed with a heart failure. I'm like, this is very bad. This is very, very, very bad.
Rip Esselstyn:
So how do you recover from cardiomyopathy? be
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
Right. So the doctor at this particular hospital, cause I didn't go to Mayo. I just went to a hospital very close to my house, because I wasn't feeling good. He had said, this heart's not going to last you more than a year. They had me in the hospital for about two weeks to try to stabilize me. And so I went to Mayo Clinic, and ironically I was getting ready to start my clinicals at Mayo Clinic, like within a few weeks. So went to Mayo Clinic, saw the doctors there, and they just filled my heart with hope. They said, no. You may one day need a transplant, but we're going to start with medications. When the medications don't work, there will be various procedures we can consider. And that's exactly what we did.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
So that was 2003. So they started me on medications and cardiac rehab. So guess who was super excited about that? I was like, yes, sign me up. So really loved cardiac rehab, got stronger. The medications helped the heart. So the heart function increased to about 16 to 18%. Not great. It was still super low, but because I was fit and I took such good care of my body for so many years, I felt pretty good. I was able to start my residency, and it worked out for about two years. But the demands of residency became pretty challenging. So in 2004 or five, I guess it was about 2006. I took a few years off. And then in 2008, really probably the most significant hardship in my life happened. And my husband slept in, and that was unlike him because he too was a morning person like me actually.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. And so when did you get married? What's his name? What was his name?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
Charles.
Rip Esselstyn:
Charles. Okay. And so when did you get married to Charles? Was it-
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
So that would've been around 2006.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay. And then, okay, so we're now in 2008-
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
What am I thinking. No, I have to track back my ears. So that would've been around... Before I moved to... It was around 2002, 2000's. Yeah, 2002.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay. So Charles slept in and what happened?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
So that was in 2008. And so slept in and you automatically get that feeling like, this just seems very unusual for him. But I always try to like go towards that place of optimism, like being the eternal optimist. But I had this very bad feeling, and I remember the night before he told me, because we had gone out to dinner as a family. And he had told me, go sleep with the baby, just be down there with her tonight. And I was like, okay, that's fine. I'll go down and be with her. Because our bedrooms were kind of separated from Sophia, and she was still so young at the time.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
And so I went in to check on him in the bedroom, and I just saw him face down, and I called his name out and there was no response. And I just knew. And it's like, your existence just... And I live at this really high level of just... I love your mom by the way. And I think your mom's... I live up there, and she's the same way. Like I just love like... And in a matter of, it was like a second, it's just like everything free fell. And it's so hard to describe that experience. And it's so flat, you're almost emotionless. You're so numb to everything.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
And I knew that I wouldn't be able to resuscitate him, because time had gone by, it probably happened many hours earlier. But in retrospect it's just one of those really terrible things. It just, it changed my life for a good year or so. I was not able to get back to that happy. I never got depressed, which was interesting. But I could never get happy, but I wasn't clinically depressed. I have a very strong faith in God. I really relied on that, but it was difficult. And I had to stay strong for Sophia.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. How and so how old was Sophia?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
So she was five at the time.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
So she was five and it was really difficult for her because she was different than her friends. And you know, death, it's so difficult. And in life, as humans, we really run away from death or pain, any sort of grief experience. And I don't know, I think running away from it sometimes makes it worse. You sometimes have to just go head on into it. And when you go head on into it and face it is when you really start to be able to process these things in a way that you can cultivate renewal and acceptance. And that's what it takes. But for me it was really my faith in God that brought me through, because there had to be a deeper meaning to death and where your loved one goes. And so those fundamental belief systems that I had from a very young child with being raised Christian or whatever your belief system is, but I was Roman Catholic and that really helped me through this very, very, very difficult time.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
And so, I got better. The hardest thing was my heart, because this was when I was still off of work. And what was really crazy during this time is, I was actually listed for heart transplant during this time. And I've actually never told this part of the story. But in 2007, about a year before my husband was, had passed away, I was listed for transplant because I was not doing well. And so this happens, and you're just like, oh my gosh, what do you do? And we never really talked about this. I mean, I was the one that was sick. He wasn't sick. We didn't think he would necessarily die. But I was the one that was supposed to die, not him. And so it was like this whole role reversal and just trying to get through it.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
And I did. I have such a loving, supportive family. They were so there for me. I did things very different than what they tell you to do. I mean, I did a lot of things within that first year. I moved out of our house. I went to go just kind of rent a house on the ocean just to get away from what I had found. I couldn't be near that bedroom. And I bought a dog. And I eventually bought a different house. And so I did all these major changes, but that helped me. That helped me re-identify Dawn and what the new normal was going to be. And then after about a year I started dating again and I was judged, but that helped too.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Before you go on, I just want to ask you a couple questions. So your husband, how old was he when he had-
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
He was older than me. Yeah, so he was 54.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay. And, any... Did heart disease run in his family?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
It did. Heart disease did run in this family. And he had had many years prior to meeting me that he did not take as good of care of himself. And then when he met me, of course, that was part of the attraction, is the fact that he had already changed his life and he was taking good care of himself. He was a brilliant man, just with such wisdom and love for life, and love for humanity, and just a really deep rich person in terms of his belief systems and faith in God himself. And so it was really a beautiful relationship we shared. And we had never thought I'd be able to have a child. And so, that also worked that he was a little bit older.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
Because it was really difficult, after I went through cancer and I was dating young men. I was kind of like, oh, I don't know. I can't really have kids. And I had this totally, very different view on life. And so when I would date 26 year old men, I just didn't really get why they wanted to go out, and do these things that I just didn't want to do. Drink and all these... I just really wanted to talk about life. It was like higher important topics. And Charles loved doing that with me. So we had a beautiful relationship. And that's what I really learned from this, is that time on earth, you have to cherish.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Okay. So you rebounded, you got the house by the water, the dog. You're there for Sophia, and now you go out and you start dating again.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
Yeah. And you know it was interesting, because around that time, when they had listed me for transplant, they put this device in my chest. And around 2009, I started feeling better, like a lot better. It was almost a miracle. And so that is when I started dating. I started having happiness again. And so it's like everything started working. And in fact, I started feeling better than I had ever with heart failure. I even tried to start jogging again a little bit, which I really couldn't do too much of that. But life was back. I met an amazing man, who is actually my husband now, Brandon. So I did get remarried and-
Rip Esselstyn:
Older again? Or younger, same age?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
No, he's just a few years older than me, so. Yeah. He's just a few years older than me. But I was older at this time, so everyone around my age then had more wisdom than a 26 year old, right. So, that's was a really important lesson for me, is I had, at that time, despite going through cancer you would think I wouldn't worry about what people thought about me, but I did. And a lot of people judged, and they thought how could she get married so quick? Especially since he was... And that couldn't have been farther from the truth. For me, I was so in love with my husband Charles when he died, I wanted love immediately. I wanted to end my life again. And it was really hard dating because I went from love and I wanted to go to love. So dating other men that were divorced before. And so it just didn't work, because they kind of had this hate for their ex. I didn't want hate-
Rip Esselstyn:
How did you end up meeting and falling in love with Brandon?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
So a friend introduced me. And he was at a restaurant. She happened to know him. It was kind of this weird how we met sort of a thing. But it was kind of meant to be. He had never been married, has an amazing family. And so I was just really blessed. And-
Rip Esselstyn:
Did you know that first night in that restaurant? Did you sense it or no?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
There was a really strong attraction on many levels. And so I wasn't sure. I stayed really in the present, so I didn't think too far in the future, but it felt right. It felt safe. And it hadn't felt that way before. And he had really good virtues, and that was important to me, especially having a daughter and he respected that. He respected the fact that I wouldn't be able to do a lot of the things that many women he would date would do, right. I mean I wanted to be proper and do the right things around my daughter, and make sure that she was comfortable with things. And, and so yeah, we didn't date that long. We dated for probably a little less than a year. And we eventually got married, because it was hard to date having a young child who was... I guess she was seven at the time. And then we had this beautiful family unit and everything was wonderful until about 2015.
Rip Esselstyn:
What happened then?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
I was with Sophia. I was in Cleveland, I was doing a presentation at Cleveland clinic, and I happened to bring her with me. She sat in the back of the room. And I was driving home. And you know how there's some certain parts of town that are maybe not even totally a little more difficult to drive through. And I passed out, I was losing consciousness. And I had been having these dizzy spells, and I just kept in... I told my doctor, I feel weird. It's just something's not quite right. The injection fraction started creeping down a little bit again. So I went to Cleveland clinic. I was really fortunate actually to be there, to be with good doctors when I wasn't near my own. And what they had found is that device they put in my chest was causing an occlusion in my neck. So blood flow wasn't draining for my brain properly. And anytime I would drive with my arms up, it would cause some complications in that area.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
So in 2015 there started to become more and more resistance. All those interventions over the years they had done to kind of give me some quality of life were starting to kind of wear out their welcome at that point in my body. And so fast forward to 2016, that was kind of really when symptoms plummeted at that point. I was super excited... This again, we kind of started off with some of the story. How I went from hospital medicine to the outpatient side to work in the cancer center. And around that time my symptoms were starting to get worse. So it was like divine intervention as it would be. Because I really couldn't keep up the hospital practice, that pace of that practice and the call schedule at night and weekends and holidays. So I was invited to go to that outpatient cancer center to start that integrative program in the right time.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
And so then in 2016. It was September 22nd, 2016. I was supposed to present to the executive team about the success of that integrative program. So I could get expansion throughout the institution. And I finished my morning patients. And I love... I mean I just, I adore my patients. I love each and every one. I could just kiss them. I love them. And so, I finish, but I'm always late, because I just could be with them for all day. I always go over. I'm always running late. They're always okay with it though. So I get to the stairs to go downstairs and my knees were like quivering. I remember, I was like, what on earth is going on? And I'm like, I'm not nervous. I love talking. Like you can see it's not that.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
So I get to the bottom of the stairs and I'm like, oh my gosh, my legs feel so weak. And I got to the bottom of the stairs and I just felt totally off. So I got to the board room and I just paused, and I remember kind of just shutting my eyes and just giving gratitude, just doing a deep breath, being so grateful for being able to have this opportunity. So they invite me in and there's, everyone's in suits, dark suits, everyone's serious. And usually I would say something really lighthearted kind of break the mood. But I was like, not today. I am going to stay focused because I do not feel too hot. So I sit down... And you know when you're holding the mouse and you're trying to control it with the cursor. I couldn't coordinate it. And then as time goes by, the mouse goes further, and further, and further away. And I look down at the keyboard and as I'm looking down at the keyboard, everyone gets fuzzy. And then that's the last thing I remember.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
And then the next moments were the most, it was the most amazing experience a human being can ever have. There was just this complete silence, peace. It was cool feeling in terms of the temperature. And I remember there being almost a slight breeze. And the breeze... I remember almost just like feeling the hair sticking on my cheek. So it was like, there was still this subtle level of awareness. But it was a place of complete innocence and acceptance of what was the total unknowing. But I was in no hurry to get out of where I was at. There was also no bright light, which a lot of people say, was there a bright light. But there was no bright light. But it just felt like I was being suspended. I felt like I was being held.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
And I've described this before. It was like God was holding me. I had so much warmth and comfort. And then the next thing you know, there's this immense level of energy that just goes through my body. And I've described it like a tsunami. Just this... Dawn's energy is coming back. Her life force is coming back and then it comes back it's a lot. So here it comes. So this energy goes through my body, pops me up on my bottom. I literally pop up, and it was preceded by this huge thump, which was my defibrillator. And so, basically though my defibrillator was going shock, after shock, after shock, after shock. And it wasn't shocking me back to life because-
Rip Esselstyn:
You didn't have a shockable rhythm?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
That's exactly right. It was completely, it was essentially a flat line. It was very fine VFIB. So it was ventricular fibrillation, and it was essentially just like this. So the defibrillator just couldn't shock it. My electrophysiologist was at Mayo Clinic Rochester. And when he reviewed the rhythm, he said it basically just give chills up his spine. He's like, he doesn't even know if he believes that the defibrillator really pulled me out of the rhythm. He thinks I really just came back to life. I mean, we will never know. Doesn't matter, but guess what? Dawn's awake. And you know what the first thing out of my mouth was? I can finish presenting.
Rip Esselstyn:
They're like, let's pass on that dawn.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
That's exactly what they said. They're like uh-huh. I had no idea what just happened. I mean, I was just out. And I didn't know I was really down that long. I actually not too long ago look back at the medical notes, because I'm like, everyone keeps asking me how long I was down. I don't know. Was it just a few seconds. But no, it actually said four minutes.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
I know. I was like, I don't know, but it was crazy. What was really terrible though is-
Rip Esselstyn:
So wait. You're in that room, you flat line, you're down for roughly four minutes. Were there other physicians there?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
That's what I was just going to say.
Rip Esselstyn:
I mean, did that they did they not try and basically give you CPR?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
No one knew my story. And so, here's Dawn, everyone sees her as this picture of health, right. A few people, some people knew my story, but people didn't see me as sick. I really, you know that's a hard thing with heart failure, is you don't really look sick. And that's the most invalidating thing. People are like, oh, you don't look sick. I'm like, but I feel terrible. And I never really would tell many people that, but boy, heart failure was just awful. It was like, I was shackled with it. I couldn't do anything. I was so limited. And so I basically would invest all my energy into my time with my patients and my work, because it gave me back so much meaning. And the things I do with my daughter, I'd give her all the energy. But at the end of the day, miss Dawn was really totally depleted.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
But no one did CPR. I had one colleague of mine actually that, I guess just wasn't aware my... She thought I was having a seizure. Which, maybe I was, because I didn't have any blood flow going to my brain. So I guess that could have been a possibility. But no one thought about it. And then a few other colleagues were like, did you just not eat breakfast? I'm like, no clue. They still, at that point had no real clue what happened until someone had said, here's her rhythm strip. Because they were able to pull it right away. And everyone was like, oh gosh.
Rip Esselstyn:
Are you supposed to wear a bracelet when you have that? Just like a diabetic does?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
Yeah. I was told actually you are, but I did not. Mm-hmm. That probably would've been really smart actually. [crosstalk 00:48:36] After that I had a few people, someone even bought me one. I didn't wear it. So after that 2016 issue, there was more procedures, it was just this back and forth. In fact, they even did another device because they were really worried since that one didn't shock me, and I was at more of a risk of this happening again. They switched out that device. They tried to pull out those old leads, they couldn't. So they left them in. So they actually added another lead to that occlusion, which caused more symptoms. So, in 2019 I was driving with my daughter and I passed out again, and that was it. So I had to stop driving in 2019, and that's ultimately when they listed me for transplant. So it was in 2019, December.
Rip Esselstyn:
So they listed you for transplant. So you need a heart transplant. And do you know, are you high on the list? Low on the list? And typically, my understanding is that there's lots of people that are in need of heart transplants. And that you have to have what the right, a lot of things have to come together to make that happen. Is that right?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
That's exactly right Rip. When you're listed for transplant, or even before you're listed for transplant, they do this expansive panel of test. And for me it was a whole week long, because with the history of cancer and all these other things, they had to do even more tests to make sure there's no cancer. So you get so exhausted from that evaluation. And there's over 106,000 people on the transplant list today as we talk. And about almost 20 people die a day waiting. And what's really difficult is... We all believe in organ donation, right? 95% of Americans believe in organ donation. They think it's a good thing. But only 58% actually check that box to be an organ donor.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
And you know, it's ironic, you know what I did this morning at eight o'clock. I actually had the privilege of going and talking to high school students that were in their driver's ed classes, to talk about organ donation. It was so cool. And they were so interested. It was the neatest thing. And so the organ donation life source, I did a PowerPoint presentation. And these young men and women, they were so interested, and they paid such sincere attention to my story, and it was such a lovely exchange. So it's really neat to see what this whole journey brings to life.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
And I think that's why I'm so open with my story, is because if this can help to encourage others to be organ donors. And we'll keep on talking about this... But, when someone dies, why would you bury your organs? If you're going to die anyways... If you're brain dead and you have no quality of life, and they're going to remove you from life support and you're going to die, why would you not give your organs? One person who dies has a potential to save eight lives. Eight organs. And then, well beyond that we use tissue for other various things. Up to 75 lives can be helped with those various tissues for other procedures. But, it's really amazing.
Rip Esselstyn:
I don't think that, like I didn't know all that. I think there's a lot of people that don't realize how, if you check that box to be an organ donor, how many potential lives you can help and potentially save.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
And it doesn't matter how old you were, because there's older people. There was a gentleman, I believe he was in his one hundreds, that donated his corneas to help someone see. And then there was another person who was in his nineties, who was able to donate part of his liver to another person after he died. And so it's just really incredible the stories that you hear. And so, when I was listed for transplant in 2019, it's so hopeful. It's like, oh my gosh. It's like, I'm going to finally get my life back. But I'll tell you what was really challenging, was the years leading up to that. 18 years I lived with heart failure, and I was a young person. You think of heart failure, you think of an older person maybe that didn't take care of their body, and maybe smoked.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
Those people still deserve their lives to be given back by organ donation if they need it. But it's hard to realize that there's congenital heart disease. There's some babies, think about all the babies that die that need heart transplants because of being born with heart defects. And then you have young adults that end up with some of those congenital issues that need a second transplant. And then you have individuals like myself that end up with some of these issues or infiltrative diseases. So there's a lot of young folks that end up needing heart transplant, and you just would never think it. There are people that you may see at the store that look totally normal, but inside it's really difficult.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
I remember my doctor asked me towards the end, you know you probably should get a handicap sticker, because that way you could spend your energy doing things you enjoy rather than walking. And I was like, I'm not going to do it. I never got one. So, and to this day, when I see him, I'm like, I'm so happy I never did that. I'm so happy. I always made myself exercise. And I'll tell you, the value of taking care of your body, eating good, your whole life and exercising. No one ever would've known I was sick. And in fact, I worked all the way up until the day of transplant. I was [inaudible 00:53:58], and you had asked me this. So I was doing all video stuff. And I was in the hospital. So, I guess I should back up. So in 2019, they listed me for transplant. I got no call for 13 months.
Rip Esselstyn:
How frustrating was that?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
It wasn't frustrating, it was just really scary. I had actually gotten COVID during part of that time. And so I was like, oh. My whole family's like, she's going to die. Because that's what it was Delta, that's before we had any vaccines, any treatment. This is like first wave. And I got COVID, my daughter got it. You know, life happens. But, guess who didn't have to go to the hospital? And if you really look at that research, we see that folks who are on whole food plant based diets typically just don't succumb to COVID. They seem to just do better. And I really did believe that. But I did okay during COVID. Mayo Clinic has this awesome telehealth program, so they're able to keep me at home and monitor me with a nurse multiple times a day at home. So they didn't have to bring me in the hospital. But that's what really pushed me down. So that was December of 2020.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
And then come January of 2021, I just was no longer safe to be at home anymore. And they did further testing to show that my heart just wasn't getting adequate blood flow and oxygen to the vital organs. And so, at that point they admitted me to the hospital for supportive therapies. So I wasn't a candidate for the heart pump. I wasn't a candidate for one of the balloon pumps, because of the prior radiation, and because I'm small and body size. So the only thing they could use to support my life was IV medications to help my heart pump. And if I continued to get more sick, they were going to have to put me on, basically life support, like something called ECMO. Which, we've heard a lot of COVID patients go on.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
But, I remember in the hospital, I'm getting those IV medications and I was doing a webinar. This is an international webinar, no one would know. So I'm talking, I'm presenting about breast cancer and eating healthy. I'm talking about nutrition. So I love this stuff, right. And my heart goes. It starts going into a very dangerous arrhythmia, and all the nurses come in the room. I'm like, it's going to be really embarrassing in a minute. I'm like, we're going to go to questions. So I put the camera off. I'm like, oh this is not good timing. I'm like I told you guys not to run this medicine when I was doing this presentation. So it was the next day-
Rip Esselstyn:
February 5th?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
It was, yep. February 5th. My doctor comes in the room and he is like, Dawn, we have a heart.
Rip Esselstyn:
And do you know where that heart came from?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
I don't.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
I don't know much about it. It's really interesting though. When the doctor tells you that after waiting all these years. You figure I was actually listed temporarily in 2007 to about 2009, getting off the list because of the circumstances. And I ended up getting a little bit better and then getting listed again, when I was actually extremely sick in 2019, waiting all that time. You would think after all those years I'd be like, I'm ready. You're not, I mean, my heart dropped. You automatically have such sadness for this family that's going through this, and that someone has to die so that you can live. So it's a very difficult emotion to process. But yet you're so hopeful, and so happy that you're going to be there for your family again. I'm going to be able to have energy and do stuff with my family. I've held them back for all these years. We couldn't have hardly ever do anything because of me. I'm the one holding my poor family back.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
And so, the next thing out of his... What he shared with me, he is like, but. And I was like, oh, this isn't good. She is an IV drug user. And she has hepatitis C. And so that was like, oh God, how is this possible? This isn't good. Because I really... It's interesting, because you asked me one question earlier. I don't always, I didn't really read a lot about heart failure. Or you asked about the lymphoma statistics. I never read about what I had, because I didn't want to know. I don't want to know numbers. And so I kept myself away from those things and I trusted my doctors. I hired doctors who I trusted, that I could say, you're going to cure me of what's going on so I could do what matters to me.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
You're my caretaker, you're going to fix me. And so that worked for me. And I love that when I see that in patients too, that they can be informed. I was informed and I listened, but yet I didn't want to get so into the details I was trying to be my own doctor. But with the hepatitis C, I actually did research that. And some of the data suggests the things you can die from after a heart transplant are, if you get rejection, of course. And if you get an infection. But you also get vasculopathy or like an arterial disease of the arteries of that transplanted heart. And there, that was one of my concerns is, can that Hep C cause inflammation in the body that can then cause this complication in my heart in the future. Which, I'm back on track to live to be at least a hundred. And now that I have a young heart, maybe I'll be 128, is my hope. But in all seriousness, this was a really hard thing for me to process.
Rip Esselstyn:
Get on that Smucker's jar.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
I'm going to do it, I promise, I want to. So it was difficult though. Then it was really amazing. So a few hours went by, I just had to think about it. And he wanted me to think about it, because he had known that I had said no to this when they had originally listed me. So a few hours went by, and I just had this complete knowing that this heart is for me. And I was probably 80% in agreement with my decision. Deep down I still had some doubts. So, the next day is when they took me to the operating room, because it takes time to bring that organ to Mayo Clinic and set all that stuff up. Because the person's on life support. And then they do the process. And the Mayo Clinic doctors go and they get that heart. They bring it to Mayo Clinic and then you're ready.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
And so they take you down to the operating room while they're doing that process of getting that organ. It's really amazing the timing of it all. I had no idea how this all works. And so they're taking me down to the operating room, prepping me, and they're on the phone the whole time with the procurement team who's getting the heart from the donor, who is actually many states away. Because I was listed as a status two, because I had gotten relatively sick, they were able to go more states over. So my heart was actually coming from a further distance away. I don't know for sure. I kind of, I always joke... In the operating room there was this nurse that had this post-it on our thing and it said Kentucky. So I don't know, maybe Kentucky was her password. But I'm like maybe my organ came from Kentucky. I'm not sure, but maybe one day I'll find out. I hope I find out.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
So I just remember going down into the operating room and seeing my surgeon, Dr. Sareyyupoglu. And I had eye contact with him, and I had no fear, none. Every other surgery I've ever had in my life, I was scared. I think anyone's scared before you go under anesthesia. I had none. I had total knowing that this was for me, this is the right thing. I am ready. And as I went under anesthesia, I just prayed for my donor. I thanked my donor. I prayed for her family and that they were okay and comforted in this time. And that was it. Went under anesthesia. There were some complications. I actually had to go back to the operating room because of the prior radiation. I had had some bleeding. So they had to reopen me up again. I woke up a few days after transplant and that is my most incredible experience in life is when I woke up.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
Oh, okay.
Rip Esselstyn:
That was as incredible as when you almost saw the white light, and you felt like God was holding you and all that?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
Mm-hmm.
Rip Esselstyn:
This is right up there?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
This is better, I think.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay, go ahead. I'm sorry to interrupt.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
Yeah, no. I'm happy you did though, because you're right. Because that was pretty cool. But I think that prepared me for this, that prepared me... That taught me to just embrace every moment, in its ultimate essence. That's just what I would say. And so I woke up, and my whole body was just beating against the bed. And I had never felt this before. I was like, oh my gosh, like what is going on? Like everything's beat. And I heard this whistling sound, and it was my hair that was just brushing, ever so subtly. I don't know if anyone else would ever have heard anything. I mean, it probably happens to anyone with a little bit of long hair, but they probably aren't aware of it. But I just have such full awareness of everything. This is the gift of everything I've been through.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
And it was like singing. And it was just like this harmonious sound. And my whole body was warm for the first time in so many years, that it was just this immense sense of being fully alive. I describe it as like my cells were oscillating at this higher frequency. And I think this is very cool. And there's something with this that has to do with whole food plant based nutrition, I think too. Which, this may sound a little weird to people, but it was the coolest thing ever. Like just, I was alive. And more alive than anyone who's ever experienced it, and I haven't lost that.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
It's so cool.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, it is so cool. And it sounds like you started having issues with your heart back in what, 2003 is when you first had that cardiomyopathy, right?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
And so for almost 18 years, you just kind of weren't able to live at that higher frequency that you probably were so used to. And now all of a sudden, because of this gift, the ultimate gift, right? I mean a new heart. You're now able to oscillate at this frequency that you haven't experienced in 18 years. Wow. Yeah, incredible.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
That was exactly it. I mean, so it was just amazing. And so I remember before I went-
Rip Esselstyn:
You're recharged.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
Everyone's like, don't go in that room. She'll not let you out. She's going to be talking. And she is like energized. I'm so energized. But it wasn't that easy. I was just so in love with the fact that I was alive, and I was going to get on that mucker jar. But, in all seriousness, when I tried to take those first steps, I had asked them who was the first to ever walk once they were extubated. So I wanted to try to hit that. I think they tried to make me feel good. I was probably the last person to walk, because I had had a few of those complications. But that first step was so challenging. I was so weak. I was so de-conditioned. So despite feeling so fully alive, when I tried to take that full first step with a walker. I mean, not even like a true walker. It's like a walker where all your body weight is on it. I could barely do it. I mean I took-
Rip Esselstyn:
But didn't you say that you were out for days, a couple days? Is that right?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
It was a few days before I was extubated. Yeah. That was hard. That actually was really, really difficult. That whole... I don't remember being intubated. I remember part of being extubated, where they're talking to you. And that part was actually scary to me, what was going to happen. Because I remember, as a hospitalist, working with patients who were kind of in those situations. And yeah, that was very challenging.
Rip Esselstyn:
You know, if I can say, so in doing my research for this, Dawn, you... Before we move on too mu too much farther. I just want to say I came across something that you said, and I want to read it for everybody. And you say that the true essence of our existence should be less about what we want and more about what we give. And how there's no greater gift than organ donation. And it's just, it is so incredible to see you so alive, so vibrant, so happy that you just light me on fire. It's incredible.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
Aww. Thank you. I just feel so blessed and it's absolutely true. Organ donation is just, it shifts that permanence of death into this vital existence and purpose. And so, it was so interesting. So you're on so many medications post-transplant, and you're on a lot of Prednisone. And I was a little upset four days after transplant. I started thinking, why. It was very weird. It was very unlike me. But I was in my mind, it was late at night, I couldn't fall asleep. And I was thinking, why did I get this hepatitis C heart? And why is she an IV drug user? And man, if this is going to mess up this heart... This weird thinking, right?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
So I went to bed and I had this dream. I had this powerful dream, and I woke up and I was in this dwelling place. It was this concrete square room. There was a window. And I remember running to that window to look out to see if my car was there. There was no car. I remember looking behind me to see if I had my purse there. There was no purse. The only thing I saw was a door. And I remember in the dream crawling out of the door, and outside of the door was this really tall grass. And as I'm crawling through the grass, the blades of grass were like sticking to my leg. You know how grass has that little stickiness to it. Almost where it cuts your leg. When I describe this, I can feel how that dream was. It was really amazing.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
And I remember in the dream flipping over and there's these clouds, these big cumulus clouds in the sky. And then in the distance, there were these people, this families and kids playing in harmony and blissful existence, it was beautiful. And then there was this message, this word that came over me that said, grace. And I thought, okay. So I woke up and I was really comforted. I was like, okay, I'm going to name my heart, grace. And I happened to look at my phone, because I would always sleep to very relaxing music. And the song that was playing on my phone at that moment, and I screenshotted it, was grace. But it gets better. So I opened my email, because I wasn't sleeping and I like to work. And the email waiting for me says, full of grace. So it was powerful.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
So at that moment I had complete knowing that this is the right heart for me. I named her grace, as you would imagine. And from that moment forward, I have had just full embrace of the heart I received. And in fact, it's so meaningful to me that I actually got her heart, because I don't know what her circumstances were. And all I know is that her and I live in such harmony together, we have so much fun together that if this can be an example for someone who is even on the brink of questioning, being an organ donor. I am here to say, the person that gets your or your loved ones organs, God forbid, anything ever had to happen, and it did like this. I am just one person out of all those other organ donation recipients that are the same exact way. They are the same way.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
You know, that gift is something that just transforms everyone's life. I think I lived like this before. But this has raised me to a different level of existence, in purpose and meaning. I get up at 3:54 in the morning and I am ready to go because I have so much to do and so much to give back for what I received. That truly is that ultimate gift of life.
Rip Esselstyn:
So do you feel like you are at all a different Dawn? Or do you feel like you're just more of Dawn?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
I feel both. I am different in a way that I feel that I am, I'm more connected to people and humanity. I've always loved people, but I love people with about zero judgment at this point. I don't pass judgment, that's what this taught me. Because going into this transplant, getting that organ, I was still having a little judgment. Even post-op day four, I was having some judgment, until I had that dream. And you know, when you look at the divine meaning of grace, it's really a gift from God, it's a virtue. And I feel that I received this gift so that I can help to radically change certain things in life. And there's no better time now. And you know, part of this is, what you are so passionate about with whole food plant-based nutrition, and just living healthy, and exercise, and in sleep and social connections, and deep meaning and purpose. And I love everything that you and your family stands for. And I'm the same way. There's just so much that we can give back to others. And I love that.
Rip Esselstyn:
How have Brandon and Sophia embraced you post heart transplant surgery?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
Yeah, it was so amazing. So, because I had the transplant and the timing I did, I was able to be at her high school graduation, which was awesome. I was able to help her move in to college, because she just started her fresh... Last year was her first year at college. So I was able to do that. I was able to go to some football games, which is so fun. These young college kids, I'm like, oh, I just love this. And they're so full of energy and stuff.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh, nothing like it. Yeah.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
Oh, so it's just been amazing. And we're so excited because this summer we get to really go on our first family vacation, because last year we really couldn't go on a vacation because I was still so close to the transplant period. We really couldn't travel. But it was interesting last year, my doctors did let me travel to Arizona. They felt that was okay since there was a Mayo Clinic Arizona. And you know what, on my four month transplant anniversary, I climbed Camelback mountain.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
I did. It was amazing. So that was one of... Okay, so when I woke up that was powerful, right then. Beating of the heart. Well guess what happened? So, that connection that happened when I woke up from transplant, happened again when I was ascending Camelback mountain. My heart was just beating so forcibly, and I just felt such a direct connection with my donor at that time, and the beauty of the mountain vista and the sunrise. And it was just a very much a spiritual connection in an opportunity that was just really amazing.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
It meant a lot to me because it was something I had done for so many years of my life that I hadn't been able to do for 18 years. I actually didn't set out to climb Camelback mountain, but I had been actually exercising really hard after transplant. And I was running, and I had run a few 5Ks prior to that time. So I was like, maybe I could do half of it. But once I got to the halfway mark, my husband was behind me. By the way, he's like slow down. You need to be safe. I'm like, I think you need to be safe. I'm like, I'm going, I'm fine.
Rip Esselstyn:
Now. So that was, did you say that was four months after surgery?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
That you did that?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
So that was in June of last year.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow. And so, and then what did you do... I read about you doing something else, less than a year after your surgery that no other transplant that I'm aware of has ever done. And what was that?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
Yeah, so I ran a marathon. And I wanted so bad to do it because it was like transplant for me was like my second wind. And a marathon teaches you a lot about life, right? And so, I was so committed, and I really felt it was going to be possible. I trained very, very smart. I really feel the fundamental reason I was able to run the transplant is, I do think my grittiness helped, but it was the plant based nutrition that let me do it. Because there are so many medications you take. In fact, there was one point post transplant that I was taking at least 45 different pills a day.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh wow.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
It's crazy. And the side effects from the transplant medications are immense. And so, going through my transplant rehabilitation, it was kind of like when I went through cancer, everyone around you was sick except for you. It was kind of, again, that same exact thing, I just had this, just felt great. How could I run a marathon? The only difference really was the fact that I was eating this whole food plant-based nutrition and very few transplant patients do, if any. I haven't really met any of that committed. And so I was very specific more than I had ever been about my diet, and very particular about how I balanced everything. And that's what got me to that point. And Jeff Galloway also helped me with my training. So I did do a little bit of a run walk. So I was very smart with my heart.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
A lot of people don't realize, after you have a transplanted heart, they cut the nerves to the heart. So there's nothing that could speed up the heart or slow down the heart. It's you that has to do it, especially early on. So it's very hard to run after a transplant. So when you run your muscles tell your heart, you need to speed up, your body gets that signal, but through the nervous system. But when they cut the nerves, when they put the new heart in, you don't have that signal. So you rely on your circulating catacholamines. That's probably my gift, because I have no problem generating energy. And so early on after transplant-
Rip Esselstyn:
So, do those nerves grow back though?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
They suspect they do, but they suspect that's usually a delayed response. But I'll tell you, this is my theory. And this is why they're going to do some further testing, but I was able to run. I started running about six weeks after transplant. I started very early after transplant running. And I was running 5Ks by three months after transplant, which was also very early. And so I think my desire, and my support of my medical team to start this very early is potentially allowed me to have this re-innervation of my sympathetic nervous system, that's allowing me to engage my heart in a way that really matters. And it helps me in terms of my running, versus I'm just using my catacholamines, but I don't know if I'm that good at it. But yeah, so I've been really lucky. So I think that the early on exercise that I was really dedicated to it, has immensely helped me with the training for the marathon.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow. Now did you also compete in the world transplant games?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
I did. So that was that last-
Rip Esselstyn:
And what does that mean? Do you have to have a transplant of heart or any part of your body? Do you know how that works?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
Yeah. So it's really such a beautiful supportive event. So any person who has undergone organ donation or bone marrow transplant is eligible for the world transplant games, or transplant gain America. Actually, we have that as well. It's coming up actually in July in San Diego. And they even have different categories for family members to run or even living donor to be a part of it. Or there's many, many events that's part of this. So last year because of COVID, it had to be virtual. And so I wanted to start running so I could do the virtual event, which was three and a half months after transplant. So that was my motivation. To start running at six weeks was so I could do this. And initially the world transplant game said, sorry, you have to be... I think it's like nine months out or a year out. And so they originally said I couldn't do it. But then I submitted my numbers and so they let me do it. But I actually did decent.
Rip Esselstyn:
And so what was that like meeting all those transplant athletes, was it just incredible?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
No, that was a shame because it had to be virtual last year.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh, oh, oh, oh, okay.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
Yeah. So I mean, you could meet people virtually, but it had to be virtual. So, next year it's going to be in Australia. So I'm very excited for that.
Rip Esselstyn:
You going to go?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
Well, yeah. So actually, I hope to go. I think I'm going to go. But right now I still, I love the marathon running. And you know, it's a little bit of different training. And so I would love to do the Abbott major. So I would love to do all six of the major marathons, is my goal. So, this fall I'm doing Chicago. And then in the spring, I always like to do the Donna marathon for my patients. That's the breast cancer marathon that's in February. But I really have my site set on doing London in the fall, and it'll just keep on going. So every fall and every spring I'll keep on running a different one until I get all six of those major ones. And then I hope I can qualify. I would like to qualify for Boston, but I'm not very fast yet. So that's frustrating me. I got to figure out how I can get my speedy legs back.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. You know what, listen, the fact that you're back running, just let's call that a huge victory right there. Let alone running marathons. Incredible. So what would you say to people that are listening that have cancer or have had a brush across the bow with cancer? Any recommendation or advice for them?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
Yeah, I would say that I have a lot of times people ask me, exactly what you're asking. I kind of look at it as, what creates that grittiness? You know, I love that word. And I would say the first thing was never letting go of that goal directed mission of wanting to deliver original medicine through the lens of love for humanity, being a doctor and helping people. And you know at that basic biological level we want to be connected and care for others. And as part of that, it's just life is about something so much bigger than us. And society nowadays, there's a lot of need for, people want pleasure. They want immediate gratification, and that's not always what life is about. It needs to be more about meaning and purpose, and the fact that it's not just always about us. So that would be the first part of it.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
The next part of it, I would say is I really controlled my thoughts. I flipped the script both times with cancer and chemo and with transplant. And I allowed both of those to teach me and guide me. And I really tried to keep acceptance at the core of that and never run from it, right. And there's that one story, I know I've shared it before. And it's with cows and buffaloes. It sounds kind of crazy. I don't know if you've ever heard this story. Have you heard that?
Rip Esselstyn:
No, I don't think I have.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
Oh, then I'm happy I'm bringing it up. So this is great. So when there's a storm coming, cows run from it, keeping them in the storm longer. But a Buffalo runs directly into the storm ultimately shortening their time. So I love... It's just simple, but it makes sense. And so that's kind of, go after it. You're not going to shorten it. So, I just feel that is part of why I've attained this life filled with bliss, and just really true heightened existence, despite adversity. And that's what I work with my patients in, and I see them doing the same thing. And it's just that invitation to use that and flip that script.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
But I would say the biggest part of this is gratitude. And it sounds crazy, but I am so grateful for what I went through. And I'm so grateful for the loving support I had from my family, from my friends, from my colleagues, from Mayo Clinic during all this time. I'm so grateful that I have this strong, like spiritual belief in God. And you know, when we have gratitude, it really takes us from this place of deficit, or nothing, to this place of abundance. And that is, those are really, I think the things that helped get me through this.
Rip Esselstyn:
Incredible. So I want to go full swing here. So we started this conversation, and what an incredible conversation it's been. With you waking up at 3:54, because you were so excited, right. Now how many breakfasts did you have this morning?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
I had full... They were like not really full breakfast. There were three.
Rip Esselstyn:
Sorry, can you share with our plants strong audience what those were?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
Yeah. So the first one was a sweet potato, because I love sweet potatoes. And I alternate them between orange and purple. So I love the purple ones, the stokes sweet potatoes, in particular are my favorite.
Rip Esselstyn:
Stokes. Yes.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
Ah, they're so gorgeous, that color. I'll just cut them. And I steam them, because if you steam them the color is even better. So I love sweet potato. So I did that early in the morning. And then after that I had oatmeal, and so I did it with, they were organic wild out. I put ginger in it. I put cinnamon in it. I used soy milk. I love soy milk. That's unsweetened organic. And then, oh, I had-
Rip Esselstyn:
Ginger, cinnamon, half a banana, and soy milk. Okay. And so can you remember roughly what time was that? And was that an hour after your sweet potato, or two hours?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
Yeah, so I had to go talk to the high school students. So I had half of it before I went to talk to the high school students. So that was about 7:30. And then I had other half when I got back before I had a patient, because I had a patient right after. So I ate the other half around 8:30. And then after I got done with my first patient, I had just, I guess it was a little snack. So I had some walnuts and I had some apricots cuts.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay. And then you had this wonderful bowl of oatmeal, right? And then what's your third breakfast?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
Oh yeah. My third breakfast was the apricots and walnuts.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
It's more a snack.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay. Yeah, I'm tracking, I'm tracking now. And have you had lunch yet today?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
No, not yet. I will after this probably. I love breakfast though. Breakfast is my favorite meal. When it comes between lunch and dinner, I have to kind of make myself eat. I do, but it's hard.
Rip Esselstyn:
So tell me, somebody that gets up typically at 4:07, and is living as large and wonderful as you are. What time do you typically, what time does the head hit the pillow?
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
You know, I really try to uphold those kind of pillars of healthy living myself. So I really try, I would love to try to get seven hours of sleep. But I feel actually really good on six hours of sleep. So to answer your question, I try to go to bed between nine and 10 o'clock on most nights. And I'm usually pretty successful about that, but it gets a little hard depending on how busy I am with work. And if I feel like I'm not going to hit that six hours and I need it, I will wake up later. I will push it back to five o'clock, and I'll miss my morning workout on those days and I'll work out in the evening. And I really believe in the importance of sleep. And if we don't have time to let our brain nurture itself and bathe itself to get those adequate hours of sleep, then we're not going to be as functional the next day. So I really try to get at a minimum six hours, but really ideally we should try to hit seven hours, if we're talking-
Rip Esselstyn:
No, you're right. There's so much research coming out about the benefit of sleep. And Matthew Walker's book and others, why we sleep, so. Well Dawn, this has been so fabulous. I can't even tell you how much I have garnered from our time together today. And I know everybody's just going to like, ah, literally eat this up, eat you up. You're this incredible journey of, that you've had on your life. And the joy and the smile and the love for life that you now exude is just so powerful. What a gift, what a gift you are to this planet. Thank you.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
Well, you're very kind. I thank you for those very kind words. And I feel like life has just been a gift to me. And Rip, all of your work is a gift to people. You have no idea. When Carrie had mentioned that I would get to meet you. I was like, oh my gosh. And I actually got to meet your dad not too long ago. He did a talk at Mayo Clinic and your mom kind of put her little happy face around the corner to introduce herself. And I was just tickled. So I just love her energy. And, but thank you for your kind words and all the amazing work you do to help people stay healthy, because it matters. And it really matters, especially if you ever get a diagnosis of something you're not expecting, you can flourish during and after that, because you took good care of your life, and that matters.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
And oh, this is what I was going to say. You know I was talking about energy and cells oscillating. So the food we eat, if you eat food from a factory, there is zero vibrational energy from that. If you want to kind of get on this really weird conversation stuff, but you get zero energy back. If you eat plant food, you're getting food from the... That's why, have you ever met someone who eats a plant based diet who is... You don't, they're all like us. They're all happy people.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
So, if people don't want to eat healthy for any other way, everyone wants to be happy. So try it just to see how good you feel. I don't believe in making people scared. So if people have breast cancer and they're doing it because they're scared of dying, I try to quickly get them to the fact that, you're going to mainly be doing this because you're going to feel alive. And that's why we're curing you of your cancer. So you feel alive. So when you eat like this, you're going to feel like me. This is awesome. Let me tell you it's a great place to be.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Dawn, I got to say goodbye. I hate saying goodbye, but this is the first goodbye. And I'm going to hopefully have lots of hellos in the future. But will you give me a nice plant strong fist bump on the way out here.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
Bye.
Rip Esselstyn:
All right.
Dr. Dawn Mussallem:
Oh wait, there. Bye.
Rip Esselstyn:
There we go. There we go. All right Dawn. Okay, bye. Dawn is all heart, literally and figuratively. And represents such a shiny example of grace and gratitude. If you're as inspired as I am, I hope that you'll give her a big kale yeah shout out on the socials. We'll have all of her links in the show notes on the episode page @planstrongpodcast.com. Thanks so much for listening and keep it plant strong until next time.
Rip Esselstyn:
The plan strong podcast team includes Carrie Barrett, Laurie Kortowich, Ami Mackey, Patrick Gavin and Wade Clark. This season is dedicated to all of those courageous truth seekers, who weren't afraid to look through the lens with clear vision and hold firm to a higher truth. Most notably my parents, Dr. Caldwell B. Esselstyn, Jr. and Ann Crile Esselstyn. Thanks for listening.
