#143: Chef AJ Shares the REAL Secrets of Weight Loss
Rip sings, dances, and raps with the legendary Chef AJ as they celebrate the 10th anniversary and re-release of her book, “Unprocessed - Revitalize Your Health with Whole Foods.”
Chef AJ shares:
Memories of meeting the Esselstyns for the first time
Her early TV appearances on Johnny Carson and the Gong Show as a comedian
How she accidentally created a daily YouTube talk show at the start of the pandemic that is now nearing 1000 daily live episodes!
Her own difficult health journey that is both gut-wrenching and inspiring for anyone seeking lasting change
Creating sustainable weight-loss and why every day should be a "treat day"
Why calorie density unlocks the key to a healthy weight
Her favorite kitchen utensils and meals
Through humor, stories and her gorgeous recipes, she knows how to educate about sustainable weight loss in a way that is both simple and yet so profound.
About Chef AJ
Chef AJ is a chef, culinary instructor, and speaker who uses her series Healthy Living with Chef AJ to promote her plant-based diet. She has also appeared as a guest on The Tonight Show Starring Johnny Carson, The Tonight Show with Jay Leno, and The Late Show with David Letterman. She has worked as the executive pastry chef at LA’s Sante La Brea Restaurant and is the creator of the Ultimate Weight Loss Program. Her expertise comes from her own personal journey, forty years in the industry, and a certificate in Plant-Based Nutrition from eCornell University. Chef AJ is a member of the American College of Lifestyle Medicine. She is also the author of Unprocessed: How to Achieve Vibrant Health and Your Ideal Weight. She is the recipe author of Own Your Health by Glen Merzer.
Episode Timestamps
10:45 Chef AJ’s Pandemic Pivot into a YouTube Star
13:40 Want to hear AJ's phone message?
15:10 What was it like to appear on Johnny Carson and the Gong Show?
18:50 Why Chef AJ prefers “plant-exclusive” over “plant-based”
20:38 The 10th Anniversary of Unprocessed is now available! What's new?
25:30 Chef AJ’s emotional backstory
31:20 Does she *really *love to cook?
34:14 Her Secrets to Ultimate Weight Loss and Calorie Density Explanation
44:35 Rip and Chef AJ talk The C’s of Ultimate Weight Loss Success
46:20 Finding the Why that Makes You Cry
50:22 Consistency - “You don’t need a cheat day because every day is a treat day.”
53:05 Compliance or adherence
54:45 Community - finding a buddy or a coach
1:01:10 What are Chef AJ’s must haves for the kitchen?
1:04:00 What Chef AJ eats in a day
1:20:00 Her personal favorite recipes
Episode Resources
Order the new edition of "Unprocessed"
PLANTSTRONG Foods - shop our official unsalted broths- and our growing assortment of other delicious products made without oil, added sugar, or excessive sodium .
PLANTSTRONG Sedona Retreat - October 10th-15th, 2022 - Dr. Doug Lisle - the esteemed evolutionary psychologist and co-author of The Pleasure Trap - is attending our upcoming Sedona Retreat to give three of his paradigm shifting lectures that help us understand all the forces working against us in our quest to live plantstrong. Once you SEE the system we live in - you can’t UNSEE it. And Dr. Lisle is a master in giving us language and tools to set ourselves on a permanent path to success. And great news! Our Sedona retreat has been approved for 21.5 CME credits for physicians and physician assistants. And 21.5 Nursing Contact Hours for nurses…. And 2.2 CEUs for other healthcare professionals as part of the registration fee for our PLANTSTRONG Retreat.
PLANTSTRONG Meal Planner - Save $10 off the annual membership with the code: PLANTSTRONG
Visit plantstrong.com for all PLANTSTRONG Resources, including books, recipes, foods and the PLANTSTRONG Coaching Programs
Join the Free PLANTSTRONG Community with over 26,000 members
Promo Music: Your Love by Atch License: Creative Commons License - Attribution 3.0
Full Audio Transcript
Chef AJ:
So if we want to keep eating the same amount of food so that we don't get hungry, all we need to do is change the calorie density of the food we eat. And one thing, it's the easiest thing is just take out the oil. Even if you're not vegan, nobody needs to eat processed oil. People are like, "Oh, my brain needs fat." There's fat in everything. There's fat in greens. There's trace amounts of fat in fruit. Oats are almost 20% fat.
Chef AJ:
If you want to eat fat, eat it in its whole form, like nuts, seeds, and avocado, but nobody needs to be having something that's 4,000 calories a pound. To me, that's the most ridiculous triumph of marketing over science that anybody in our species, or any species, needs a processed oil that's not found in nature, that's had its vitamins, and minerals, and phytochemicals, and antioxidants, and fiber, and water stripped from it. It makes no sense. So just if people just stop the oil, I bet you they'll see weight loss, even if they did nothing else.
Rip Esselstyn:
I'm Rip Esselstyn and welcome to the PLANTSTRONG Podcast. The mission at PLANTSTRONG is to further the advancement of all things within the plant based movement. We advocate for the scientifically proven benefits of plant based living and envision a world that universally understands, promotes, and prescribes plants as a solution to empowering your health, enhancing your performance, restoring the environment, and becoming better guardians to the animals we share this planet with. We welcome you wherever you are on your PLANTSTRONG journey. And I hope that you enjoy the show.
Rip Esselstyn:
Hello, my PLANTSTRONG sweet potatoes. I hope that you're having a fantastic week because we're about to make it even better. And my guest today on the PLANTSTRONG Podcast loves sweet potatoes more than any other person that I know. And I think it's fair to say that if she had to be one vegetable, it would be a huge, scrumptious sweet potato. Today, we are going to sing, dance, and rap with the legendary Chef AJ, as we celebrate the 10th anniversary and the rerelease of her book Unprocessed: Revitalize Your Health with Whole Foods.
Rip Esselstyn:
Chef AJ has been a dear friend of mine for over a decade and know that there is never a dull moment in today's conversation. And that's what makes her so special. She is going to share her own difficult health journey that is gut wrenching and yet so relatable to so many of us. Of course, she'll also make you laugh with her hilarious quotes and anecdotes. But the thing that makes Chef AJ so special is that through humor, stories, and her gorgeous recipes, she has learned how to educate about sustainable weight loss in a way that is both simple and super powerful. I am thrilled to welcome Chef AJ today. But heck, we could even call her Chef Aha, because I know you're going to have plenty of aha moments today.
Rip Esselstyn:
Now, before we dive in, I want you to know that may is National Blood Pressure Month. If you're not aware, close to 25% of American adults are on some sort of a hypertensive medication. And hypertension, it's known as the silent killer, because in most cases it has zero symptoms. People with elevated blood pressure are straining their hearts by making them work harder to move blood around. And what's contributing to all that hypertension? You guessed it, salt. The basic problem with salt is that it encourages fluid retention in our bodies. Normally our kidneys deploy a precise balance of potassium and sodium to remove extra water from the blood. But when you consume too much salt, this fragile sodium to potassium balance is absolutely destroyed. And as a result, your kidneys remove less water from your system. This now puts damaging pressure on blood vessels in your kidneys and your arteries bold to accommodate the extra fluid.
Rip Esselstyn:
Now, one of our goals at PLANTSRONG foods is to be as low in sodium as possible with all of our products. That is why our chef created culinary broths are 100% unsalted. All four organic broths are big on flavor to help you enhance and elevate all of your favorite recipes. But we intentionally left out all of the salt other than naturally occurring sodium so that you can control the salt in all of your meals. Check out our unsalted broths and our growing assortment of other delicious products made without oil, added sugar, or excessive sodium. You can go to plantstrongfoods.com. Now let's hop on in with Chef AJ. AJ, I've missed you.
Chef AJ:
I missed you, too, because I have all these desserts. I'm testing 160 of them and I got nobody to eat them.
Rip Esselstyn:
What about Charles and Bailey?
Chef AJ:
Well, first of all, dogs should never have chocolate, and Charles can't eat chocolate, either. And plus I don't live anywhere where there's vegans, so it's been really hard.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow. You can't find any people?
Chef AJ:
I'm sure people, but I want our people to taste something, you know?
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Chef AJ:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Man, so first let me say, I love that you're wearing your kale T-shirt. I love being Twinkies with you. How old is that shirt? Can you remember when?
Chef AJ:
Oh my God, I got it, remember the first Engine 2 conference I was at. So it's got to be 10 years old.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. I think it's holding up remarkably well.
Chef AJ:
Well, you know what? Wash in cold water and don't put it in the dryer. That's my secret.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh, you have all kinds of tips, which I can't wait to get to today. So do you remember the last time that we, or not the last time, the first time that we met?
Chef AJ:
Yes. You were staying at Kobe's house in Northridge. And it was June of 2000, gosh, it's either '08 or '09. This is where I might be off by a year.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow. That's impressive. It was '08, I think.
Chef AJ:
This was just before you reached superstar status, you were almost at the pinnacle. People knew you, it was just before you got huge and you were staying there with your parents, and you were going to speak at this place on Father's Day, which, I think was June 19th, the next day, which was, I think touted to be a big event. But as you know, it really wasn't a big event. You got snookered into it.
Rip Esselstyn:
Ended up being a bit of a dud. Yeah.
Chef AJ:
Right. And I somehow, I don't remember if I connected with your parents first or somebody. And I said, "Would you guys to come for dinner?" And I remember, I even remember the dress I was wearing. I don't have it anymore. So I picked you up in my tiny, little Matrix, and, you know, your dad-
Rip Esselstyn:
Huh.
Chef AJ:
... barely fit in it because he's so tall.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right. And my mom and I were sitting in the back, literally holding on for dear life as you're talking to Essie and you're switching-
Chef AJ:
Oh, I got it.
Rip Esselstyn:
... switching lanes, and my-
Chef AJ:
It was so-
Rip Esselstyn:
... mom and I are like, "oh my God, we're going to die."
Chef AJ:
And funny enough, John Pierre was there, too, but I didn't actually meet him, meet him. I waved to him, but I didn't meet him the same way that I met you guys. And you came for dinner. And I remember your mom was so full. She talked about this on my show recently. She had to lay down on the floor, because I fed you guys too much. And I didn't really understand calorie density back then. So it was too much high calorie density food with too many nuts. It was delicious and everything like that. And then the next day, when you and your father spoke at this event, you guys were speaking and your mother slipped on a piece of wet fruit that was left on the floor.
Rip Esselstyn:
It was a kiwi.
Chef AJ:
A kiwi. Yep. Gosh, I thought it was an apricot, but it turned out she ended up breaking her hip, but first of all, there's two funny parts to this story. Number one, she blamed me. Because she said, "Well, if I hadn't eaten so much at your house the night before, I probably wouldn't taken such a fall." And number two, it was really funny, is you guys were trying to give your talk. You knew something was going on because there were paramedics there. And she's on the gurney. And at the time I think she was maybe 74. I don't remember her exact age, but she was in her 70s and they're asking her her age. "What medications are you on?" "None." "What diseases do you have?" "None." And they're looking at her like, "What?"
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Chef AJ:
And then she was selling your book to the paramedic saying, "Well, that's my son." Other than the fact that she had a broken hip, it was adorable.
Rip Esselstyn:
No, that was a remarkable weekend. It really was. AJ, it is so fantastic to have you on the PLANSTRONG Podcast. I've been trying to make this happen-
Chef AJ:
I know.
Rip Esselstyn:
... forever. And I wanted to do it in person.
Chef AJ:
Yeah. That would have been great.
Rip Esselstyn:
And then obviously COVID hit. Right?
Chef AJ:
Well-
Rip Esselstyn:
And then everything got turned upside down. And now obviously, with what they've done now with technology, and Zoom, and some of these other streaming platforms, it's so much more cost effective. You don't have the same vibe.
Chef AJ:
I know. And you don't get-
Rip Esselstyn:
But-
Chef AJ:
... the same dessert. I can't bring you. Can I say one thing, Rip? Part of that story, I totally forgot. Your mom ends up in, I think it was Tarzana Hospital, because she needs to get her hip fixed. And so your dad, Essie, Dr. Esselstyn's, visiting her, but she's in a shared room. And the other patient in the other room had no idea that this was Dr. Esselstyn, and she's ordering your dad around, like, "Get me some water." And your dad just does it. And he's like, "Oh my God." I'm saying, "This is Dr. Esselstyn. You call your nurse." And he just does it. He's so sweet.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. He really is a great, gentle, wonderful man.
Chef AJ:
That's it a gentle man, a gentleman. They don't make those anymore, unfortunately.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Well, I can't believe, speaking of super stardom, I can't believe how far you've come since we met in 2008, 2009. And the fact that you've got, I don't know, three, four books under your belt, you've got eBooks, you've got weight loss programs. You've got TV shows that you've done. Most recently, was it just a stroke of luck or brilliance that you started your AJ Live YouTube in March, 2020?
Chef AJ:
They say that the Chinese word for luck is preparation meets opportunity. I had no dreams or aspirations to be a "YouTuber." But what happened, it was my pandemic pivot. Because most of the time I was traveling at least two or three times a month, conferences, cruise ships to speak, which was very fun. You met a lot of people, but of course the pandemic shut every job down. Well, since then, the last job I had in person was November of 2019. And I'm not very good with technology. And I had gotten this new technology called Restream that allows you to stream multiple places live at the same time, Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube. And I had a lot of trouble setting it up.
Chef AJ:
And what I was trying to do was, I have a little private group. And I was trying to go live to them at the start of the pandemic, March 20th, '22 to say, "Hey let's connect, blah, blah, blah." And it went everywhere. And there was 600 people watching. I'm like, "Whoa." People wanted a connection. And I felt like, "I can't just be me every day. What am I going to say?" So I started calling on friends in favors, and then all of a sudden it became a show because then people kept writing in. At one point we had 200 guests we had to book. "Can I be on your show?" And I'm like, I don't have a show."
Chef AJ:
But now I do have a show. It's called Chef AJ Live. You've been on it. Your sister, your mom, your dad, your parents were just on episode 900. I'm approaching episode 1,000. And I'm having the time of my life because I would not have met all these people if I'd continued to travel. I may have, but I'm reaching more people in more countries and I'm meeting some of the coolest people that are plant based advocates and staunch supporters that not everybody gets to know because not everybody gets those limited jobs that you see on the cruise ships and the conferences.
Rip Esselstyn:
You're approaching 1,000 of these episodes. Are you doing them literally every day?
Chef AJ:
I have them every day. The daily time of my show is 11:00 AM. But what happens is friends and publishers say, "Oh, so-and-so has a new book." And instead of telling me a few months in advance, they tell me a week in advance. So there have been times where I've had to do five shows a day, which I don't really like to do, but often I have to do a bonus show at 2:00 PM. And I don't to say no to people. But it's so much fun because it's like what you're doing right now, you connect with a person and it just happens to be different only because there's people watching live-
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, this-
Chef AJ:
... that can ask questions.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, this seems it's so incredibly well suited to your personality. And you're so gregarious, and you're so curious, and your IQ is obviously higher than your cholesterol level, right?
Chef AJ:
Absolutely. Just because my-
Rip Esselstyn:
Just-
Chef AJ:
... cholesterol is so darn low.
Rip Esselstyn:
Do you know what your cholesterol level is these days?
Chef AJ:
At one point it really was 99. The last time I checked it, boy, it got up to 122.
Rip Esselstyn:
That's still great.
Chef AJ:
I know, I'm just kidding, because I have an outgoing message on my machine. It's a rap song that goes, "My cholesterol's 99, man. What the hell is yours?" But at the time it was, but it's about 122 now.
Rip Esselstyn:
So is that a rap? Does it rhyme? It didn't sound-
Chef AJ:
Yeah. I can't do it without telling you my phone number, but I go, this is (singing) that's 3436 and it's spells Fido. It's the answering machine of Abby J and it's time for the sermon of the day. I say, be kind to animals and do what you can, remember you should be eating them, man because meat is murder. And the time to stop is now. Even Bart Simpson says, "Don't have a cow." So if you want to be a saint and not a sinner, remember creatures are for loving and not for dinner. If you still eat rotten flesh at every meal, make sure it's dolphin safe and never eat veal. There's some things we all can do for sure, like boycott ivory and don't wear fur. To show our practice what I preach and that these just ain't words, my cholesterol's 99, man, what the hell is yours? And that's been on my answering machine since the year 2000, or on my voicemail. And a lot of people don't like it, because they don't know that they-
Rip Esselstyn:
That-
Chef AJ:
... can actually just push-
Rip Esselstyn:
... bypass the-
Chef AJ:
... pound and get to the beep.
Rip Esselstyn:
What is that? A minute and 12 seconds?
Chef AJ:
Something like that. But the certain plant based doctors, they say they don't like it. Like, "I can't refer you to speak. You said the word hell in your outgoing message."
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, they haven't seen you upside down without your panties on, then.
Chef AJ:
Right. And I cannot do that anymore, just because now that I'm 62, the orthopedic doctor said, "You got to stop standing on your head. It's not good for you." Because I don't do a handstand, I do a headstand and that's just too much pressure for this60-
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, and-
Chef AJ:
... year old .
Rip Esselstyn:
Just for a little context, so that doesn't sound totally nutty what I just said. When was it that you were on Carson and-
Chef AJ:
Oh, September 1st, 1987. I will never forget that day. It was a Tuesday. He was such a great showman. And that's on my YouTube channel, and it's probably on his YouTube channel, too. I wanted to be a comedian growing up, or improvisational comedian, or a standup comedian. And I've dabbled in both, not to any degree of success. But when I was 27 years old, my agent got me an interview with the booker of The Tonight Show, Bob Dolce, and I was accepted. And I did a bit. This was before we had shows like 30 Seconds to Fame or America's Got Talent. So I was called a novelty act or a variety act, which actually, it was something, believe it or not, that I was doing from the age of 14 and getting on shows. We're talking, I was on The Tonight Show. A lot of people don't know this, because there's no way to verify it. I don't have the film.
Chef AJ:
But when I was 14 years old, I was on The Tonight Show the first time with Joey Bishop, who was a guest host for Johnny Carson, doing a part of this act. And I had gotten on shows The Gong Show, and I even got to go to other countries like Japan to do this act, which was great because it paid pretty good back in the day. And so I developed this little comedy act where I play, it's not really a flute, like in the traditional sense of a woodwind instrument. It actually is a musical instrument called a tonette, which, it's not a kazoo, because you have to know the fingering. You have to know how to play the instrument, but I could play not one but two through my nose at the same time, which was unique.
Chef AJ:
But then to up the game it was like, "Well, is that all you got?" I learned to do it upside down, while standing on my head, and then to impress the booker of The Tonight Show even more, I was blowing bubbles with bubble gum at the same time. So none of these things are easy on their own, but to do all three at the same time was cool. Especially since Johnny Carson doesn't meet you before you get on the show. He'll meet you in the dressing room and say, "Hello." I was on his podcast, by the way. But he doesn't rehearse with you the way they did like when I was on Leno or Letterman, where they actually see the act. It's so much better the way Johnny worked. Because when you see my act the first time, it's hilarious, but the 10th time, not so much. So he's seeing it through his eyes the first time. And he's reacting. And the best part of the act is him. His reactions are priceless, because he is amazing.
Rip Esselstyn:
So The Gong Show with Chuck Barry, what-
Chef AJ:
Yeah, Chuck Barris. That was in 1976. And the funny thing was, is I was a senior in high school at that time. And because I wasn't 18, it's so funny because you had to be in TV school and be tutored. It was a strange experience to do it at that time. And that was fun. And I didn't win, but I remember, Jaye P. Morgan was one of the judges and she gave me a 10. So God bless her. And Allen Ludden was one of the judges, and Arte Johnson was one of the judges. And they didn't give me such a good score. I think I got a six or an eight, but it really, it was a fun experience.
Rip Esselstyn:
So on The Gong Show, were you doing the upside down thing with the-
Chef AJ:
I wasn't upside down yet because, see, I did not learn to go upside down until my 20s, when I started taking yoga. So I just did it right side up. And even then, one of the things on television is they don't want to have to pay for the music. So you always have to do what's called a public domain song. That's why, if you ever watch TV shows, you notice that they very rarely sing Happy Birthday when it's a birthday because that's ASCAP and BMI, they usually sing For He's a Jolly Good Fellow. So it's important that you do songs that they don't have to pay those fees. So I usually did Rossini's William Tell 1812 Overture, because that was a song with a lot of trills and it was public domain. So that's what I did. And yeah-
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, you-
Chef AJ:
I really don't do it anymore.
Rip Esselstyn:
You've been plant based for how many years?
Chef AJ:
I've been plant exclusive for close to four. I don't the word plant based. I love Colin Campbell, but plant based, so many people say they're plant based and they still eat meat and pork, and because they think because if they eat more plants. So I am plant exclusive, I am vegan 100%. And I just happen to be, I am whole food plant exclusive, but I'm plant exclusive. I'm not plant based. It's all plants, baby.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. All the way. And-
Chef AJ:
45 years.
Rip Esselstyn:
And you got into the, was it the vegan or the Vegetarian Hall of Fame?
Chef AJ:
Well, the last year they gave the award, which I believe was 2019, they were still calling it the Vegetarian Hall of Fame. But once they start up again, I'm pretty sure they're going to rename it the Vegan Hall of Fame.
Rip Esselstyn:
And so how did you get in there?
Chef AJ:
I have no idea because I didn't think they liked me at Summerfest, because I advocate for the health message so much, even though at the end of the day I became vegan for ethical reasons. And I was really surprised. I was sitting there in the back row waiting to go home, waiting to be driven home. And it's like my friend, because she knew. She's like, "No." And I'm like, "Oh, this is so boring." And I look terrible. I'm in a sweatsuit because I'm about to get in a car. And then they are announcing it and they say, "And this year's winner is from Los Angeles." And I'm like, "Ugh." I was excited because it really was a dream of mine to win that award. But then I was totally unprepared, you know?
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Chef AJ:
But it was really a nice award because I don't need everybody to know who I am, or even love me, or admire me. But what's that saying? Win the approbation of your peers. Because that's really what my life's been about is helping animals and being vegan. And that was an acknowledgement that just by not eating them for 45 years, I've helped quite a few, I think.
Rip Esselstyn:
I think you have, absolutely. So March 7th, this little puppy, Unprocessed, the 10th anniversary edition went live. Can you believe that's been 10 years since she wrote the first edition of Unprocessed?
Chef AJ:
I can't believe it because I have the first one. And you were so kind to endorse it and you wrote, "Chef AJ's food is as fun, filling, and fantastic as she is. The last time I ate dinner at her house, I had seven of her desserts. It's a good thing I live in Austin and not LA."
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh my God.
Chef AJ:
You were one of the first people to endorse my book. So thank you for that.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yes, you're so welcome. Can you hold that up for a second? I see a big potato on that one. You moved from the potato to this new cover. What's up with that?
Chef AJ:
Okay. One of the things we did because we turned out ... Well, my first book, all my first books up into this one were self published. As you know, people love photos. And it's hard to do when you self publish. So we had Hannah Kaminski take as many photos as we could of the recipes, but technically there's still a type of a potato on the cover because these are sweet potato nachos.
Chef AJ:
So we would always have a potato somewhere.
Rip Esselstyn:
I want you to know it is drop dead gorgeous. I just looked on Amazon. It's number 401 of all books on Amazon.
Chef AJ:
At one point it got close to 100. It was number one in four categories: gluten free, fiber, which I didn't know was a category, weight loss-
Rip Esselstyn:
that's funny
Chef AJ:
... and vegetarian cooking. So 1 was hoping to break the top 100, but we were staying at 112 for a while, but-
Rip Esselstyn:
Well-
Chef AJ:
Yeah, very happy that people are supporting the book.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. I need to let Will Bulsiewicz know that you're number one in fiber. He's not going to be happy about that.
Chef AJ:
I did beat him for a little bit. I know. I took a picture of that, that day, but-
Rip Esselstyn:
But-
Chef AJ:
I'm sure he'll take the reins back very soon because he's got another book coming out.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yes he does. But tell me this. 10th anniversary edition. What is different besides great, let me just show some people, but let me-
Chef AJ:
The lasagna picture.
Rip Esselstyn:
Look at these photographs. But what else is different? You got some new recipe in there?
Chef AJ:
Okay. We kept all the same recipes. We took one out, because I couldn't justify the use of alcohol anymore. Not that I ever drank, but there was one recipe where I used a little bit of mirin in it, and I felt that's not true to my message. So we took out one recipe. Every other recipe and I think there's 108 of them, we left intact. But what I did, because as you know, I used to be 50 pounds heavier when I first met you, basically from eating nuts and not understanding calorie density, I wasn't eating junk food, is we gave options for those recipes that were higher in fat, not all of them, because some of them, I couldn't. Okay, for example, some of the recipes, I just couldn't take all the fat out and have it be the recipe.
Chef AJ:
But many of them, we showed options. So in many cases when recipes had nuts, for example, in desserts, when I was making, say a crust or a truffle out of walnuts and dates, well guess what I discovered? Oats are fantastic. They work perfectly. And they're so much lower in calorie density and fat. So we gave options for the brownie recipes and other recipes where you could use oats instead of nuts. And in the savory recipes where I was using nuts for creaminess, we found that, guess what? You could use things white beans, cannellini beans, or even steamed cauliflower. So we gave low fat options where we could. We added color photos. And we have a new forward by Dr. John McDougall, that was very nice of him to write. And those, I think, are the four major changes of the book.
Rip Esselstyn:
And who wrote the forward for the first edition of the book?
Chef AJ:
Dr. Hans Diehl. And since he's probably not going to be watching this, I'm going to tell you a funny story.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Chef AJ:
Yeah. He wrote it, which was very nice because when I was starting out, nobody knew. I couldn't get arrested in the vegan world. John McDougall, I knew him, but I would never ask him that. And so I don't know, it was many, many years later I get a call from Hans Diehl, telling me how much my story moved him. He had never actually read the book until many years later when his wife read it and told him to read it. And I'm thinking-
Rip Esselstyn:
Well-
Chef AJ:
"Oh my God, you endorsed a book you never read."
Rip Esselstyn:
What's funny is, it's not funny, but your first book, I obviously endorsed it. And I was just looking at the recipes and so many of just the beginning material is, "This is what you should have in your kitchen, blah, blah, blah." So I want you to know that I read all 35 pages before the recipes. And I was stunned and amazed, because I didn't know your backstory like this. And to me it so informs who you are today, and the path that you've chosen, and really, your success. so I would love it, the degree that you're comfortable, sharing your story starting when you are seven years old.
Chef AJ:
Yeah. And I don't mind sharing it because I think it will give people hope. And that's why it's so hilarious when people say, "Well, you're a skinny B. It's so easy for you. "And I'm like, "Really?"
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Chef AJ:
"Have you ever watched my lecture from fat vegan to skinny bitch?" "No." So I think the only time I was at my ideal weight, other than the last 10 years, when I learned everything you guys teach and do at PLANTSTRONG, and your dad, calorie density, I became obese at the age of five. And the thing is, I was born in 1960 and there just weren't a lot of fat kids in the '60s. I was it. You know how every year, or maybe that, I don't know if they do this anymore, but growing up, they would do a school picture every year, a panoramic school picture, kindergarten, first grade. And it was black and white. And I'm looking at these now and there's 30, 40 kids, in the class and there's literally one fat kid every year. And that was me.
Chef AJ:
And it wasn't until, really, I started getting into college that I started seeing that there was getting to be some more fat people. This was getting now into the '80s. Now, I would fit in perfectly now. if I was that age now I'd look everybody else. So it is hard being the fat kid and that's how come I became so funny because it was to deflect any teasing or comments because my legal name, the reason I go by AJ is a couple reasons.
Chef AJ:
One, because it made it easier to get a chef job in the restaurant, because on the resume, they didn't know if I was a man or a woman and that they always seemed to prefer men, but when you get there, like, "Oh, you're a lady." But they still had to go through with it. In cheffing it's not a verbal interview as much as a test meal. So being AJ was better, but my legal name, Abby, everybody called me flabby Abby. And I hated that growing up, and hurts, and things like that. And so that was tough. And I didn't get asked to my senior prom. Well, I actually asked the guy, a friend, an older guy, a guy that had already graduated last year, just so I could go.
Chef AJ:
So it's not like my life was this bed of roses growing up being fat. And so I struggled a lot. And it wasn't just with my weight, but I had an eating disorder. And again, everything I had, it was before we had the information on how to really help people with it. So when I got anorexia, well, I don't even know if they treated how they treat it how they treat it now and if it's any better, but basically when I became anorexic, they considered that a mental diagnosis and they lock you in a mental hospital. I'm not bashing mental hospitals, but it's not like you're a ward with other anorexics. There are people there, there was an arsonist there, for example, it's not a fun place to be.
Chef AJ:
And the way they treated it back then was, "Well, either you eat or we tube feed you." It was just deplorable, the kind of treatment that I had to undergo. And so it was just easier to eat and gain enough weight just to get out of there. And the problem was, is I didn't know what to eat. And just being vegan or plant based is not enough because if you're eating crap, you're going to have health consequences, whether it's vegan crap or non vegan crap, crap is crap.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yes. I get that. Another part is that I had no idea, for example, about your father abandoning you.
Chef AJ:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
And then you having to go and live with your aunt fr about two years.
Chef AJ:
That was a blessing, actually. Sometimes when stuff is happening to you, you think, "This is the worst thing." But then when you look back, it's like, "Thank God." In my father's defense, he was kicked in the head by a horse, which made him violent and psychotic. Now, that doesn't mean he was a nice person before that, but I only knew him when I knew him. And so it was a good thing that he abandoned us because living with him for the first 11 years, it was like, imagine Mommy Dearest. It was like Daddy Dearest. So that actually turned out to be a good thing, because I went into a loving home with an aunt and uncle who since passed away that took me in, and they were my legal guardians.
Chef AJ:
And that's really how the seeds of being Chef AJ were created because my aunt was Swiss. She was born and raised in Geneva. My uncle met her while he was attending medical school there. And so her mother lived with us and the mother didn't speak any English, but she was a Cordon Bleu chef. She had a five star restaurant in Switzerland. And I watched this woman make dinner every night, from food. It wasn't vegan, but Rip, she used food, you know what I'm saying? There was no processed food in the house. She would go either to a farmer's market or this nice store called Gelson's, and she would buy things leeks. And she would make recipes from food, not like today, not Hamburger Helper. And it was just amazing what she would create. The food was really quite delicious. And so it always piqued my interest in cooking that way, from ingredients.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. What a blessing. Absolutely. And so then I'm just trying to remember, but so then after about two years of living with them, you went back with your mother.
Chef AJ:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
And then did you start cooking on your own?
Chef AJ:
I did. I remember I gave my first formal dinner party at the age of 14. Now, I was living with my mom. She had subscribed to these Time Life recipe books. And I just loved cooking. And it wasn't vegan, what I made at 14. I didn't become vegan until 17, but I remember the menu. It was stuffed Cornish game henS with apple chestnut stuffing and a bourbon caramel mousse. And I can't remember what the vegetable, but I remember sending out invitations. It was so much fun. I love cooking because to me, it's like arts and crafts. I'm sitting in my office. And I'm not a very good artist, but I pretty much painted everything in here. Cooking, to me, is fun because you get to make stuff and you get to eat it. So it doesn't take up room.
Rip Esselstyn:
Is it fair to say you love to cook?
Chef AJ:
Well, I love to create, but if I had to do it every day in a restaurant, I wouldn't love it. But I do. I love to create. I love it. Thomas Allen from California Balsamic was breezing through last week and he said, "Let's do a video." And I'm like, "I don't really have anything in the house." And I love being put on the spot like that, like an Iron Chef. And I made this orange sesame glazed tofu from three ingredients. So that's what I love to do. But as far as a production job, like at a restaurant, I don't love that. But I do love to cook for myself, and my husband, and friends. And I think I like to bake even more because, I don't know, people seem to love dessert and you can get them in with dessert. Even if they're not vegan, desserts can get people in.
Rip Esselstyn:
They sure can. And you were the executive dessert chef at a restaurant for a long time.
Chef AJ:
I was. I wanted some chef experience for my resume, because I didn't really know what I was going to do. But Sante restaurant, which was on La Brea right up the street from Pink's Hot Dogs, it's now closed. But I was a pastry chef there for, I think four or five years. And again, it was a test job where I just made them stuff. So they didn't care that it was vegan, to be honest. It wasn't a vegan restaurant. they just wanted desserts that taste good. And they had a lot of celebrities that came in there. So that was fun because desserts don't give you the same pressure as an executive chef, because it's not like somebody's waiting for that minute. You have a little bit more breathing room and time. And I got my own little kitchen to cook in. And I could make my own hours.
Chef AJ:
And that's where that famous German chocolate cake was created because it was actually because of Dr. Diehl. He's like, "I need a German chocolate cake." And I'm like, I don't know how to make one. And I figured it out. And so even back then, I wasn't using oil. They didn't know and they didn't care, because they noticed there was all this oil and they go, "Oh, good. We're saving money. She's not using up all the oil." I was using apple sauce, which is much cheaper, for example.
Rip Esselstyn:
Speaking of desserts, one of the differences, you move desserts to the back of the recipes
Chef AJ:
I forgot about that.
Chef AJ:
That was a mistake, I guess. I didn't realize back then I was such a food addict. And the original version, I said, "Life is uncertain, eat dessert first." You're right. And yes, we moved the dessert chapter where it belongs, to the end. And one of the desserts was in honor of your dad. I don't know if you know about Hockey Pucks?
Rip Esselstyn:
Hockey Pucks that were originally called Essies.
Chef AJ:
That's right. But then at our house for dinner that night, Ann Wheat from Millennium Restaurant said, "You can't call them Essies. These look hockey pucks." And that was because I had heard that your dad liked to eat Reese's Peanut Butter Cups on New Year's Eve. And I wanted to give him a way to do it without the sugar and that was completely vegan. And those are fun. I'm actually making them tomorrow.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. I don't think my father's still doing it. For probably a good decade, there, on New Year's Eve, he would usually down, I don't know, eight to 12 Reese's Peanut Butter Cups. And I don't know if you remember or not, but President Clinton told David Letterman that story on the Letterman show. It was-
Chef AJ:
That's hilarious.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. It was hilarious. You've also written The Secrets to Ultimate Weight Loss.
Chef AJ:
Yes.
Rip Esselstyn:
I want to talk about food. I want to talk about your secrets to ultimate weight loss. Tell me this. If somebody is sitting at home right now and they're 50 pounds overweight, what do you recommend? What's the best way to start?
Chef AJ:
Read our shirts. And it doesn't have to be kale, but truthfully just start adding in more healthy food, especially food of a lower caloric density, like fruits and vegetables.
Rip Esselstyn:
You say calorie density. For those people that are out there that have no idea what calorie density is, can you give us a five minute tutorial on that?
Chef AJ:
Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Everybody knows that food has calories and a lot of people do count their calories, or carbs, or points, or weigh and measure their food on a plate in an effort to lose weight. And it will work, but for most people it's not going to be sustainable because when you try to eat less food, you get more hungry. If you understand calorie density, and again, this is from the work of Dr. Barbara Rolls at Penn State University, who did hundreds of articles in the research, medical journals about this calorie density simply means calories per pound of food. It doesn't require you to count calories, or even measure, or understand that maybe half a cup of blueberries has this many calories or a cup rice has this many calories. You only have to know what's called the average calorie density of a few major food groups.
Chef AJ:
And these food groups vary in calorie density from about 100 calories per pound, which are non-starchy vegetables like kale and just about every vegetable, to 4,000 calories a pound, which is all oil. There's a 40 fold difference in the calorie density of food. And I love how Dr. Doug Lisle has often said, "People are not overweight because they eat too much food. They're overweight because they eat too many calories." Because our ancestors evolved at a calorie density of about 700 calories per pound. But now, because of processed food, we didn't always eat processed oil. Our average calorie density of what people are eating is much higher than what the species evolved at. And so if you want to lose weight without going hungry, you need to understand calorie density. Because what Dr. Rolls discovered in her research lab at Penn State University, where she studies human eating behavior, is that human beings eat a consistent amount of food per day by weight.
Rip Esselstyn:
She calls it volumetrics, right?
Chef AJ:
Right. Volumetrics. In order to not be hungry, we each eat about three to five pounds of food a day. Now, you are very athletic, you're a guy. You probably eat more pounds than me, but all of us, without knowing it, because she's studied this with children, she's studied this over and over. We eat a consistent weight of food. And so if we want to keep eating the same amount of food so that we don't get hungry, all we need to do is change the calorie density of the food we eat. And one thing, it's the easiest thing is just take out the oil. Even if you're not vegan, nobody needs to eat processed oil. People are like, "Oh, my brain needs fat." There's fat and everything. There's fat in greens. There's trace amounts of fat and fruit. Oats are almost 20% fat.
Chef AJ:
If you want to eat fat, eat it in its whole form like nuts, seeds, and avocado. But nobody needs to be having something that's 4,000 calories a pound. To me, that's the most ridiculous triumph of marketing over science, that anybody in our species or any species needs a processed oil, that's not found in nature, that's had its vitamins, and minerals, and phytochemicals, and antioxidants, and fiber, and water stripped from it. It makes no sense. So if people just stop the oil, I bet you they'll see weight loss, even if they did nothing else. And I've actually run that experiment on my husband, unknowingly, once. And he did lose weight. And he's like, "I've got cancer." I'm like, "No, I just [inaudible 00:37:54]." So that's calorie density, is to eat foods that are lower in calorie density.
Chef AJ:
And on the back of my book, I have this chart. And you could get it online. I could even send you a PDF, but basically the foods that are lowest in calorie density, fruits, vegetables, whole grains, and legumes. These are the healthiest foods on the planet. These are whole foods that are found in nature. And they have a calorie density of less than 600 calories per pound or less. But what else is significant is they contain fiber and water together, intact. And when you have fiber and water in a whole plant food, you create what's known as bulk. And bulk contributes to that feeling of satiety. And when you reach satiety sooner on fewer calories, you're less likely to overeat. But a lot of people are familiar with those three stomachs. There's a slide in a lot of talks where they show, if you put 400 calories of oil in, you don't even see it because it doesn't activate the stretch nutrient or calorie receptors.
Chef AJ:
If you put chicken or cheese in, it fills the stomach a little bit more. But unless you're willing to fill your stomach with whole plant food, because our stomach holds about a liter of food, about 4.22 cups, you're going to feel hungry. But the good news is these plant foods that are lowest in calorie density are also the foods that are highest in nutrient density. So it's just a win-win situation. And these are the foods that our ancestors ate throughout most of human history. The problem is that most people are eating the majority of their calories, something like over 90% of them, from animal products, which are a much higher caloric density, and processed foods: flour, sugar, oil, which is a much higher caloric density. And the problem is these foods have no fiber and water. And when you don't have fiber and water, you're never going to feel full. You're always going to overeat on calories.
Rip Esselstyn:
That-
Chef AJ:
So when somebody's overweight, they're eating a diet that is too calorically dense for their genetics.
Rip Esselstyn:
That's brilliant. Brilliant five minute explanation. Thank you for that. And in Unprocessed, you talk about when you were considering yourself fat, you had four food groups: sugar, flour, oil and caffeine.
Chef AJ:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right
Chef AJ:
Candies, cakes, cookies, fries, and ice cream. Exactly. Because I was vegan for ethical reasons. That's the whole thing. And people that don't believe in food addiction, I just don't get it, because that's all I ate, was caffeine and sugar. How many people at the age of 43 need a Coke Slurpee just to get out of bed? That's a problem, you know?
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. I just have to go back to that first statement that you made, that you heard from Doug Lisle, and I've heard it as well, but I think it just bears repeating, and it's that people don't become overweight because of how much food they eat. It's because of how many calories they eat. Wow. You know? That's really powerful.
Chef AJ:
Right. Because one of the things I love about Dr Rolls' book, because first of all, so many people in the plant based movement use calorie density. And Dr. Dean Ornish had written a best selling book, I believe it was around 1980, called Eat More, Weigh Less, which is exactly the definition of calorie density. And Dr. John McDougall wrote another bestselling book, McDougall Program for Maximum Weight Loss, again, based in the principles of calorie density. But what attracted me to Dr. Rolls' work was the pictures. And that's why, when I do a presentation, I use a lot of pictures, because when I saw that, for the same amount of calories, in a quarter cup of raisins, I could have two cups of grapes. It was like, "Whoa, I want to be able to eat more food. It's going to be more satisfying. It's going to be more filling." And that's when I really started researching it and started interviewing her.
Chef AJ:
And it's just, calorie density is a game changer. Once you understand it, or even if you don't understand it, and if you're willing to execute it in your life, it's crazy how much food you get to eat when you understand it. So I get to eat more as a slender person than a heavy person. And when I teach at these spas like Rancho La Puerta, where they give these tiny spa portions, and then I'm tiny, and eating these huge plates of food with salads, and vegetables, and fruit, because people, it's not their fault. It's not taught in school. We should teach calorie density instead of the memorization of the historic battles that occurred, because it really is a game changer. It's the best thing that I've ever experienced
Rip Esselstyn:
It is. And there's so many cool, different ways of trying to illustrate to people what calorie density really is, so it really sinks in. And for example, you, to me, did a brilliant job in some of the presentations that you've done with the blenders and like, "Okay, this is five apples, this is apple sauce. And then this is apple juice." And then you're like, "Whoa, that's pretty powerful."
Chef AJ:
It's amazing when people see the visuals, they start to understand it. One of the things that always stuck in my mind is because you said, "If somebody's 50 pounds overweight, what do they do?" Well, first of all, you can be 50 pounds overweight on a vegan diet. I was. But it's very hard to be 50 pounds overweight if you're on a calorically dilute, unprocessed, vegan diet, you know what I'm saying? If you're not eating tons of Ezekiel Bread, and nut butters, and processed oil, and restaurant food. So the first thing I would say to people to do is if, because nobody likes the idea of giving anything up. People just don't like that concept, is to add in more healthy food of a low calorie density, which is particularly vegetables. One of the things Dr. Goldhamer said that always stuck in my mind is he would always say, "Show me an overweight person. And I'll show you someone who is unwilling to eat enough salad and steamed vegetables."
Chef AJ:
Because the caloric density of vegetables is so low, that you don't want to just eat them, you need that starch for satiety. But if you just include them in every meal, half your plate, vegetables, or salad, or start with a salad or vegetables, adding in those high nutrient, calorically dilute foods first, you start to fill your stomach. You start to activate the stretch receptors and the nutrient receptors, and you still want to eat the good stuff, the potatoes, rice, and beans. But you're diluting the overall calorie density of the meal. Soup is a perfect example, because soup, especially because of the high water content, I don't know.
Chef AJ:
When people can get it, they're like, "Oh my God. You get to eat so much. Every meal is Christmas." My husband doesn't eat the same way as me, because he's really skinny. And he eats tons of nut butter sandwiches. He just can't keep weight on. But I look at the amount of food he eats, which is so small. And I look at the amount of food I eat, which is so big. And then satiety actually begins with the eyes. When we see large volumes of food, we expect to be satisfied. That's why these weighing and measuring programs that give you 17 ounces of food per meal, seven ounces of vegetables. You know you're going to be hungry. That's what I love about the in person conferences, because we can talk about this all day. But it's when I'm in person and people see, "Oh yeah, she really can eat me under the table."
Rip Esselstyn:
That's right. That salad should have its own zip code, it's that big. You have seven Cs to weight loss in The Secrets to Ultimate Weight Loss. You want to share a couple that you think are really important for people?
Chef AJ:
Well, yeah. The seven Cs to success. Well, I think the first one is commitment because without some kind of a commitment I don't think you're going to succeed at anything. So-
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, can I stop you there, then, and just say that you talk about, there's a woman that, she was an acting coach of yours or teacher that said, "How bad do you want it?"
Chef AJ:
That's right.
Rip Esselstyn:
Joan-
Chef AJ:
Joan Darling.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. And so is that what you mean by commitment, like how bad do you want it?
Chef AJ:
Well, what my mom used to say, "People that are interested will do whatever is easy and people that are committed will do whatever it takes." And so if you are somebody that's struggling with your weight, especially if you've struggled with a long time, I don't think you can dabble in weight loss the way you can like in a, "Oh, I'm going to take a painting class and see how it goes." You have to really be committed to the process, because if you do it in a helpful manner, it is not a quick fix. It is not an overnight solution. It requires changing your lifestyle. And without that commitment, it's going to be very hard to be successful, because then you're going to have your feet in both worlds. You're like, "Oh, I'm committed Monday through Friday, but on the weekend I'm going to go out, and have drinks, and eat at restaurants." That's not a commitment. It really takes a high level of commitment to do this.
Rip Esselstyn:
But you've coached literally thousands of people, right, using your system.
Chef AJ:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
What have you found with the people that are successful, and they keep it off for an extended period of time? What's your definition of commitment? What does that look like?
Chef AJ:
Well, I think one of the things is they have to know their why. We talk about this idea of the why that makes you cry. If they don't know why they're doing it, let's say if they're doing it because of an offhand comment from some doctor, or somebody they're dating, or to fit into address for their daughter's wedding, that's a very short term commitment and they're going to have short term results, but usually they need something more that's going to keep them going when they reach a plateau, or when they have a bad day, and often it's a health scare. It's often because they don't want to live in a state of debility, or disease, or get their legs amputated, or lose their sight. So I think having a strong why, the why that makes you cry, because listen, weight loss is doable, but for most people, apparently, I'm learning, it's not that easy.
Rip Esselstyn:
What's your why?
Chef AJ:
Well, I don't to be in pain. And for me, what happened is when I broke my knee at the age of 49, and I was working as a pastry chef standing many hours a day, and then the knee would swell up, and it really hurt. And I went to the doctor and he wanted to do surgery. And that's my number one fear is surgery and anesthesia. I was literally willing to do anything to be out of pain, even eat healthy, even eat vegetables for breakfast. So that was my why. And people say, "Oh, you're too thin." It's like, "Well, too thin for who?" When you have a deranged knee that, your doctors want you on the leaner side to avoid surgery. So I'm at the perfect weight for me. And my BMI is almost 20, so I don't know how I'm too thin, but my why is, because the minute I get a little bit of knee pan, it's like, "Oh yeah. Now I remember why I'm doing this."
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Chef AJ:
"I don't want to have surgery."
Rip Esselstyn:
And I also read that you hate hospitals more than funerals.
Chef AJ:
Oh my God. Hospitals. And I used to volunteer in one. Just don't go to a hospital, stay out of the hospital.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. And I don't know how many years ago it was now, but you also had some pretty substantial precancerous polyps.
Chef AJ:
Yeah, I know. If I knew I was going to do this and be a broadcaster and whatever, I would've documented all these things like today's YouTubers do. I actually had the diagnosis, they called it precancer in 2003. And this was the greatest thing, is this is because I was a junk food vegan for 26 years, an ethical vegan living on Coke Slurpees, and Dr. Pepper, and all kinds of vegan dessert. And when I woke up bleeding on January 1st, 2003, I was very concerned because we have a strong family history of colon cancer, had a grandmother that died of it, an uncle that had 80% of his colon removed. So we already had the family history.
Chef AJ:
And so when I went in and they actually did a sigmoidoscopy, they didn't do a colonoscopy, which they should have, but I had an HMO at the time. My colon was riddled with these, I think it's called adenomatous, and they called it and said, "You have precancerous polyps. If we don't remove them, you will get colon cancer." But they couldn't remove them because my colon was, as they said dirty, because I hadn't eaten a fruit and vegetable for 43 years. I wasn't eating any fiber. So duh, I'm going to get something like that.
Rip Esselstyn:
But you did broccoli. So you were eating some broccoli.
Chef AJ:
I did like broccoli and I did eat a little broccoli. I was working as an activity director, and Javier, the chef every night before I'd go home, he would steam some broccoli and give me some marinara. I don't know. I still broccoli. I don't know why. I should have a shirt that says broccoli, because I really do love broccoli. So probably that saved me from full blown colon cancer. And that's when I went to the Optimum Health Institute, July 6th, 2003. And the, I went to the San Diego train station. I took a train from LA.
Chef AJ:
And before the cab driver took me there, I said, take me to 7-Eleven, because I was told if you're caught with anything, they kick you out. They don't give you a refund. And I remember July 6th, 2003, at 4:00 PM Pacific time drinking, at the same time, my last Coke Slurpee and my last Dr. Pepper, saying goodbye to the two men that I loved the most. And that was really something. So I switched from a junk food vegan diet to, it was already vegan, but just unprocessed fruits. I wasn't eating any fruits and vegetables and that is always a recipe for disaster.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay, good. Commitment. Got to find the why makes you cry. Good stuff.
Chef AJ:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
What's another C?
Chef AJ:
Well, one of the thing is you got to to have some degree of consistency and I see too many people that flip flop through all these different programs and they want to lose the weight quickly. So like, "Well, I'm going to do keto because I hear you drop weight quickly." Which you do, because you're dropping water weight and you're depleting your muscles and liver of glycogen, but you're not losing fat. This is what people don't understand. And Dr. Lisle talks about this so eloquently, is that you lose only about two ounces of fat a day. And when the scale moves more than that, that's not fat, that's water. And that's because maybe you were eating a lot of sodium and things that. And so people I find are not very consistent cause they're jumping around. They, they don't stick with one thing long enough to see the calendar do its magic and to glean the results.
Chef AJ:
And like I say, this idea of cheat days is just to me the worst idea in the world. Because if you have to have a cheat day, then your diet is not going to be sustainable for you. I've always said, "Do the least restrictive program that you can do that will get you the results you seek." So I don't need a cheat day because for me every day is a treat day, because I eat huge volumes of air fried potatoes, and sweet potatoes, and rice, and desserts made out of dates, and oats, and fruit. My food is so delicious, what am I going to get as a cheat day? So if you need a cheat day, it's not going to work, number one. And then you're not going to be consistent with the plan that will work. So I find that consistency is really, really important.
Rip Esselstyn:
You have so many killer sayings and quotes, like what you just said, you said, "You don't need any cheat days because every day is a treat day."
Chef AJ:
Yeah. And you know, there's something-
Rip Esselstyn:
That is so adorable.
Chef AJ:
And especially women. Men can be heavier I think. That's not the currency for men. For women, it really is. Our attractiveness, and Dr. Lisle talks about this a lot in his Beat Your Genes Podcast, our attractiveness as a woman is, it's our mate value. And because he explains that in the stone age, there were no overweight women unless they were pregnant. And so that's why very often, some men are not attracted to overweight women. And for women that have suffered for a long time, they don't know how good they can feel at a lower weight, and about themselves and just in general. And until they get there, it's so hard to articulate this to them. But consistency is key. It's-
Rip Esselstyn:
I-
Chef AJ:
... key in athletics, it's key in everything.
Rip Esselstyn:
... oh-
Chef AJ:
... consistency is key.
Rip Esselstyn:
It's key in life. I think it's absolutely crucial in life. Can you hit me with another C?
Chef AJ:
Yeah. And I just wanted to say that the slender body and having the calm, stable brain is the treat. To me, that's the treat, not the cupcake or the cookie. Another C is compliance. And I love the word compliance because Dr. Goldhamer taught it to me, because it doesn't have the emotional charge as other words. In medicine, the word compliance just means following a prescribed course of action.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Chef AJ:
And if people don't the word compliance, they can substitute the word adherence. It doesn't start with C. Because so many people would say to me, when I was working one-on-one with people, which I no longer do, because they would report to me every night or send me their food. They would use these words, "Chef AJ, I was good today because I ate kale. I was bad today because I ate a cookie." And I tried to explain to them that it's not a moral judgment or a moral failure if you eat this way or this way, that simply you're either eating compliant or you're not compliant.
Chef AJ:
So it's not that cookies are bad for everyone all the time. But if you're on this program, they're not compliant. They're not on this program. And it takes the emotional charge and the judgment away from it. And it's like, "Oh, I ate something noncompliant." Doesn't feel the same as, "I ate something bad." Because if you eat something bad, then you assume, "Well, you are a bad person." So being noncompliant or not adherent, I think helps people feel better about themself if they have a little slip. But the greater the degree of compliance you are on any program, the greater success you'll have.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. And it ties in really nicely with consistency and commitment. And I agree. There's something about, "Was it compliant?" As opposed to good or bad? It's not nearly as charged.
Chef AJ:
No, I don't think it is. "Oh, I ate some noncompliant food."
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Chef AJ:
At least for me when I say that I don't feel bad about myself.
Rip Esselstyn:
No, you're right. It removes that judgment. That's really brilliant. Okay. Can you hit me with another one?
Chef AJ:
Yeah. Well, this one you are the king of, with your-
Rip Esselstyn:
I am.
Chef AJ:
... events, which is community. Because it's with the sea of community that I see more people have trouble. "No man is an island," said John Dunn. And in the vegan world, plant based world, we're already such a minority. And most people don't have their families completely on board. If they are not surrounded, at least occasionally at your retreats or your groups with like-minded people, they're going to have a hard time unless they're really disagreeable introverts, and I know a few of them, that just don't care what anybody else thinks, they're going to have a hard time without some kind of community. And especially for weight loss, it's very hard to do this alone. And I remember I interviewed your dad's, I don't know if he's your boss or coworker, but Dr. Michael Rosen once at the Cleveland Clinic.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Chef AJ:
And he said that, "Having a buddy for support, when you're trying to make a lifestyle change, whether it's starting to exercise, or quit smoking, or lose weight is more powerful than taking an anti-addiction medicine for the same thing. It's that powerful to have a community." And a community doesn't have to be thousands of people, because a lot of people live places where they're the only vegan. And it doesn't even necessarily have to be in person. One of the nice things the pandemic taught us, while it's certainly better to be in person to be able to hug people. You can really get a lot out of Zoom. It's so funny because I just saw somebody that I hadn't seen since the pandemic, in three years, in person, but I was Zooming with them. It didn't feel I hadn't seen them. You know what I'm saying?
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Chef AJ:
So we can still create meaningful connections thanks to Zoom, or these other platforms, or even a texting relationship, or an email relationship. But you have to have some kind of accountability often. I call them the ABCs of accountability. You can have a buddy, you can have a coach, but a community, you feel you're not the only one doing this. And so when your kids don't want to eat this way, or your husband doesn't want to eat this way, and your friends don't eat this way, it's like you have a soft place to fall. And you know you're doing the right thing, and you can share recipes, and successes and any problems that you have. But I can't imagine not having the community of some people in your life that are doing the same thing as you.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, it's huge. I know when I wrote my first book, the Engine 2 diet back in 2009, I made every, one of the participants that went through my little pilot study, have, I called it a fire buddy. And had to got to have one or two fire buddies. And then once a month we would have potlucks at my house. And then of course we started the Facebook page, and now my Mighty Networks, and anyway, that's community, absolutely, so important. As you've heard Chef AJ and I have been talking about her six Cs of sustainable weight loss, and one of those Cs is community.
Rip Esselstyn:
I'd to share an email that I received from Lonely Vegan. And she writes, "There's a joke going around social media these days. It goes, 'What's the hardest thing about being a vegan? It's not talking about being a vegan.' It's sad because it's true. I've been whole food, plant based for four years. And I'm very happy with my decision. I've seen many positive results. It's hard socially, though. My husband is supportive, but is not interested in changing his eating habits, even though he's watched Forks Over Knives and The Game Changers with me, and agrees with everything that he's seen. My friends and other family members support my decision, but they are not interested in hearing about it either. So I'm learning to keep quiet while they talk about their aches, and pains, and prescriptions, and operations. I keep myself motivated by reading and listening to podcasts. I imagine that I am not alone in this situation. It would be helpful to hear how others handle this isolation. Thank you."
Rip Esselstyn:
Lonely vegan. Thank you for that very honest email. And you're absolutely right. As much as we want to shout from the rooftops about all the benefits of a whole food, plant based lifestyle, to keep people off of their medications, procedures, operations, it is sometimes not received in the way that it is intended. And so a couple of things, we'll definitely talk about this all too common dilemma of having to go it alone in future podcasts. But I also want you to know that we at PLANTSTRONG do not want you to feel unsupported. And this is why we have a super robust community of support, inspiration, and encouragement that's almost 30,000 strong with our free online community at community.plantstrong.com. So if any of you out there are feeling alone, not part of a community, go to community.plantstrong.com and join ours.
Rip Esselstyn:
We also have our wonderful PLANTSTRONG retreats every year where people can join people literally from all over the globe who have come together for one purpose, and that's to enhance their life with a whole food, plant based lifestyle. You can join us on the Black Mountain each spring, just outside Asheville, North Carolina, or you can join us among the stunning Red Rocks of Sedona, Arizona in the fall. This year, we're in Sedona in October. And if you are a healthcare provider, our retreats include CMEs, nursing contact hours, and CEUs. So come away with us and elevate your personal and professional life at one of our immersive experiences. For all the details, go to plantstrong.com and click on events. What's another C?
Chef AJ:
Well, I changed it when I wrote the book, because when I used to give this lecture in person, one of the Cs was continuing education, which I still think can be really important, but we changed it to cooking. And by-
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh.
Chef AJ:
... cooking, I don't mean you have to be a five star chef, but you got to have some basics. You got to be able to get that healthy food in your house, whether you use a food delivery service or have somebody prepare it. But if somebody would just learn some rudimentary cooking skills, like throwing stuff in an Instant Pot, I think if you don't have the food ready, it's going to be a problem, it's really-
Rip Esselstyn:
You love the instapot, right?
Chef AJ:
I do love the Instant Pot and the air fryer. Those are my two favorite tools.
Rip Esselstyn:
Two favorite. So if somebody was to say, "Chef AJ, what are five things that I should spend $500 on to put into my kitchen?" What would you say?
Chef AJ:
Well, see, unfortunately, the Breville's about 400, so that's going to take a lot of that money.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay. No, hold on.
Chef AJ:
But you don't have to get the Breville. I do believe in Instant Pot. Okay. So I would say an Instant Pot.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Chef AJ:
Which is less than $100 now. I would say a rice cooker because even though you can cook rice in an Instant Pot, I really prefer it in a rice cooker. You can cook other grains. And by the way, the Aroma rice cooker at Costco is $29. So now we're up to about $150. You can get a pretty good air fryer for $100. So now we're up to 250. So now we're going to need some a food processor or blender. Let's see, we have $250 left. I've seen some high powered blenders for 100. So now we're at 350. And for sure you can even get a Cuisinart at Costco. I've seen them for 149. So there's your $500 and your five appliances.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow. What about a pan? Do you have a pan that you use?
Chef AJ:
Yeah. Well, my pan is so old, like me, because it's a Pampered Chef one that I don't think exists. But again, my recommendation to people is always get the biggest and the best that you can afford at the time. And so you can get pieces of cookware like Saladmaster, for $2,000, and you can get a pretty decent nonstick. When I say nonstick, I mean a SCANPAN, or a Copper Chef, or they call it a GreenPan for $29. So I think, or even a good piece of stainless steel cookware.
Chef AJ:
I like to have something with a greater, big size because I don't these small pans, because if I'm sauteing, for example, kale recipes, where I've sauteed some onion and garlic, I want to be putting in big bunches of kale. It's not going to fit in a little, tiny sauce pan. So I have more of a larger wok pan that will fit lots of greens and things that, which would be great. You might have a pan already that would suit your purposes. But most cheffy chefs will just say stainless steel. I've tried the Saladmaster and I know there's people that love it, but I could never figure it out. It seems so complicated. And for the average person, it's very expensive.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Especially if you want cooking to be one of your Cs. So-
Chef AJ:
Yeah, absolutely.
Rip Esselstyn:
Now speaking of cooking, you said that you embraced the principles of calorie density about 10 years ago.
Chef AJ:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right.
Chef AJ:
I know. I remember dates January 2nd, 2012.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay. And so walk me through a typical day of what does Chef AJ eat?
Chef AJ:
Okay.
Rip Esselstyn:
Because we got a lot of people that want to know how you do this.
Chef AJ:
All right. I'm going to say that being 50 pounds lighter, I eat less now than during the weight loss phase. I needed a lot more food, because you do. The more you weigh you need roughly 10 calories per pound of body weight. I want to tell people that I don't eat breakfast, not because I'm doing intermittent fasting, because Chef AJ never ate breakfast. Unless you count Coke Slurpees breakfast. I don't know why I'm not hungry in the morning. I was never a breakfast eater. So my first meal is lunch, which could be anywhere from 11:00 AM to 1:00 PM.
Rip Esselstyn:
So you don't even eat breakfast if you've worked out?
Chef AJ:
I really don't. And I did work out today, and I have still haven't had it for an hour. I don't get hungry. I don't know why, I don't get hungry until lunch.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Chef AJ:
And I tried not eating the day before because people said, "Oh, it's much better if you eat a heavy breakfast, and a heavy lunch, and light dinner." And so I tried that. I didn't eat once for a whole day and I still wasn't hungry until lunch.
Rip Esselstyn:
What is it?
Chef AJ:
I don't know why-
Rip Esselstyn:
What is it?
Chef AJ:
... that is.
Rip Esselstyn:
What is it that McDougall says? "Have breakfast, like you're a- "
Chef AJ:
"Breakfast like a king, lunch like a prince, dinner like a pauper."
Rip Esselstyn:
That's right. That's-
Chef AJ:
I have lunch like a king, dinner like a prince, and breakfast like a pauper because I'm not having any breakfast.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right. Anyway, I'm sorry I interrupted you.
Chef AJ:
Yeah, no, that's okay.
Rip Esselstyn:
For-
Chef AJ:
First, I love lunch. It's my biggest meal. I'm not so hungry, but for me, hunger is the best sauce. And so by lunch I'm really ready to eat. I'm really hungry. So it's a combination of starch and vegetables. And really, it hasn't changed in 10 years because I love sweet potatoes. And when I say sweet potatoes, I don't mean the orange ones, which are very pedestrian, but they're okay if you do-
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh.
Chef AJ:
... fries or mashed. I do like the orange ones in certain things, but I love the Hannah yam, which is the white sweet potato, or the Jersey sweet potato, or the Japanese, the Murasaki or the Korean, these taste cake. And I roast them. And I sometimes just eat them roasted, and sometimes I chill them and then air fry them. But I would imagine I'm eating, if I had to measure it, a pound and a half after cooking, but it's a lot. And I love them and I eat them either with a vegetable, a non-starchy vegetable, broccoli being my favorite, but I also have become quite fond of Brussels sprouts glazed with balsamic vinegar and Dijon mustard or really-
Rip Esselstyn:
And that's your recipe in your book.
Chef AJ:
Yeah. And it's really good. It's really, really good.
Rip Esselstyn:
And that's also, I think that recipe, you use a bag of frozen Brussels sprouts.
Chef AJ:
Yeah. Yes. Absolutely.
Rip Esselstyn:
Which is so simple.
Chef AJ:
Because it was easier. And I found, especially for people that don't like the taste of cruciferous vegetables, the baby Brussels sprouts, which you can get in the freezer section of places Whole Foods and Trader Joe's, they're much milder. They don't have that that stinky feeling that people that don't them like. And they're very easy to cook in the microwave for a few minutes or in the air fryer for 20 minutes. And they're tiny and they're quite delicious.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yes. Sweet potatoes. Let me ask you this. Is there any plant food that you more than sweet potatoes?
Chef AJ:
Hm. I don't think so. I really don't. I don't think so.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay. So would you say that you like Charles and Bailey more than sweet potatoes?
Chef AJ:
No. I love them more than sweet potatoes
Rip Esselstyn:
That's-
Chef AJ:
I do. And-
Rip Esselstyn:
... that was your-
Chef AJ:
I put that in my book.
Rip Esselstyn:
I know.
Chef AJ:
It's Charles, Bailey, sweet potatoes. That's the order of life. Yeah. And it's funny because Charles does not like sweet potatoes. Bailey does. It's like, "How do you not sweet potatoes?" That is the craziest thing to me, to not sweet potatoes.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh my gosh.
Chef AJ:
There's-
Rip Esselstyn:
And so sweet potatoes and broccoli. And then what about dinner?
Chef AJ:
Yeah. Well, but sometimes I eat a chopped salad. That's really been really fun for me because I developed TMJ last year. And so a lot of chewing was a little hard. And so we started making these chopped salads where everything is chopped really finely. We have our greens, we have carrots, purple cabbage, green cabbage, and Charles uses this tool and it makes it really easy to eat. So I love that. So sometimes I'll that with the sweet potatoes. Dinner is honestly a recipe from my book. And so last night, from this book, we had the sweet potato enchiladas, but I was too lazy to roll the enchiladas. So I did it casserole style. And that was really delicious. Tonight. We're having tostadas made with Spanish rice and I don't know what book that's in, it's probably on YouTube.
Chef AJ:
We often just have steamed vegetables and rice for dinner. I really do make the recipes for my book. So dinner's always something different, but I like to batch cook. So for example, when I make cauliflower bisque, it makes so much. So there's some in the freezer. So I'm going to take that out. I know that's dinner tomorrow. And then I also have some black bean mushroom chili in there. So that'll be dinner on Sunday night. I love my sweet potato burgers. I batch cook those because they taste just as good when you just stick them in the toaster oven or the air fryer. So I really do make my recipes and I have them in rotation.
Chef AJ:
And dinner's like that. And usually for dinner, I'm usually too full after lunch to eat dessert, and even a piece of fruit, because lunch, I just go crazy. I love lunch. I love dinner too, but dinner, I've already eaten five hours ago, so I'm not as hungry, but I do try to stop eating by 7:00 because I to have a little bit of time before I lay down, at least three hours, it just feels better to my tummy to do that. So dinner's more like a social thing, because maybe that'll be with Charles or with friends, but lunch is my smorgasbord. It's like, "Just let me have my food."
Rip Esselstyn:
I was watching you on Instagram Live the other day, maybe a week ago. And you were showing your kitchen, and your pantry, and you were pulling stuff out of your fridge. I was stunned and amazed at how organized everything is.
Chef AJ:
Yeah. You've got to be. That's the secret. You asked me like, "Where would people start?" People, organization is very important. Making your bed first thing in the morning. It all starts with that. Because once you don't do that, nothing gets done. I've learned that as a human being. But people say, "Oh, Chef AJ, you have so much willpower. I can't do this." I don't have any more willpower than any other human being, but I am organized. And by that, I mean I have a clean environment, meaning I don't keep junk food in my house, and I always have healthy food ready. So guess what? When somebody's hungry, the only options in my house are healthy food. And it's so funny because right before the pandemic, I was thinking of doing, I occasionally I teach business courses like how to be successful in a plant based business with this other company.
Chef AJ:
And I thought, "Oh, that'd be really fun. I want to do business course." So I was going to create one. Then the pandemic happened, it never happened. So we did a pilot course of just a business course. And we had four people staying with us. And they were all different shapes and sizes. And I fed them because it was just too much trouble to have to go out. So I gave them all their meals while they were here. And they were here over a period of Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday... In nine days. And they just basically ate what I ate. And they were like, "Oh, you're feeding us too much. Oh no, there's dessert." And by the way, dessert in my world is like an apple pie made out of oats, and apples, and dates or a jam bar made out of oats and bananas, things like that.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Chef AJ:
And they all, after they went home, they all had lost weight, anywhere from one to four pounds, just eating like me. But the food's always ready. You got to have the food ready. If you can't do it, have somebody else do it. But if you have, first of all, all you have is healthy food in your house, you and your family will eat. It's only when there's other options that there's a problem.
Rip Esselstyn:
I love hearing how organized you are and how that, it's not about willpower, but you there's certain things you can do to set yourself up for success and make it that much easier. All right. You got another C for me. Are we-
Chef AJ:
Well, yeah, I think there was two more change. You have to be willing to change. Now, there's a saying, "Nobody likes change except for a wet baby." And the thing is, change is difficult. It really is. But you have to at least be willing to change. And that means changing a lot of things. You're not only changing what you eat, but sometimes you even have to change who your friends are. I can't tell you how many people have lost friends just because they're vegan now. It's crazy. Or because they stopped drinking alcohol because now they're not fun anymore.
Chef AJ:
So that's why community is so important because you're going to actually have to replace these people with better friends, and healthier friends, and like-minded people. But the idea is you're going to have to change a few things. You're going to have to change the way you cook. If you're used to dousing the pan with oil, you're going to have to change that. So change is never easy, but you just have to be willing to change. And you have to be willing to embrace change. And to the degree that you're willing to change, the more success you'll probably achieve in these areas of weight loss, and health restoration, and things like that.
Rip Esselstyn:
Change is never easy. But I think we need a little paradigm shift that, it's what human growth is about, and it's also about exploration, and potentially becoming a better version of yourself.
Chef AJ:
Yeah. Well, one of the things I learned is that changes about one of the only things in life that you can be certain of. And unfortunately, a lot of people, Rip, don't change until the pain associated with change is actually less than the pain of staying the same.
Rip Esselstyn:
That's good. Another one of your quotes I love, "If it's in your house."
Chef AJ:
"It's in your mouth." And that is never not true.
Rip Esselstyn:
It's so true. You're drawn to it a moth to flame.
Chef AJ:
Yeah. It's the pleasure trap 101. And people think, oh I'm just going to say these affirmations, not my food. I don't know how people can coexist. Yes, can an alcoholic learn to live with alcohol in the house? Maybe, but why would you want to do that to yourself? Because willpower is a very limited resource and it depletes as the day goes on. And when you've had a bad day, and especially you haven't eaten enough starch, and you're hungry, it's impossible to resist the temptation. It's just too much for an average mortal to do that. So that's really hard for that live in an unclean environment.
Rip Esselstyn:
You are an extremely hard worker, aren't you?
Chef AJ:
I'm very conscientious. I do like to work.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. I'm just thinking about, you're on your 1,000th episode since March. What a grind. That is a bit of a grind.
Chef AJ:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
I know you absolutely adore it and love it.
Chef AJ:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
But would you say that on average you have to spend an hour, or two, or three preparing for each one of your-
Chef AJ:
Yeah, well, it-
Rip Esselstyn:
... interviews?
Chef AJ:
... depends on the interview. If I were going to interview you as a friend, we would be having a fun conversation like this, and I wouldn't spend hours because I know you. And I might listen to a couple recent podcasts, but when I had Richard Wrangham, who wrote Catching Fire, I spent 12 hours preparing for that, not only reading his book, but because I didn't know him. Or Michael Moss, when I have somebody that I don't know well, I get really nervous and I do prepare a lot because I don't want to look a dumb-dumb and not know their work.
Rip Esselstyn:
Who is the guest that you've had on your show more than anyone else?
Chef AJ:
That I really remember in my heart and stuff like that?
Rip Esselstyn:
No, who have you have-
Chef AJ:
Oh, more times.
Rip Esselstyn:
... more times.
Chef AJ:
Oh, gosh. All right.
Rip Esselstyn:
Is it John McDougall?
Chef AJ:
It could be John McDougall now, but it might be Doug Lisle because, see, even when I started out, Dr. Lisle asked to come on once a month when possible. So it's either Dr. McDougall or Dr. Lisle now. Yeah. But it's funny, because now what's happening is I'm getting all these doctors. "Can I have a monthly slot." And maybe it'll become that. I don't know. But it's so much fun. And I'm so honored-
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow.
Chef AJ:
... that people want to talk to me. And to me it's just you and I having a conversation. And I really love it. It's something worth getting up for every morning. And certain guests, and you probably had this, too, they just tug at your heart. And I don't know if you remember Sarah Taylor. She was a vegan author that had brain cancer. And she came on twice. And just stuff like that's just so inspiring, to hear from people that are at the end of their life, and they still want to be helping people. And sometimes-
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, that-
Chef AJ:
... it's the ... And also, this is the other thing, my show isn't a vegan show. In other words, you don't have to be vegan to be on the show. You just can't be promoting animal products, for example. And one of my favorite guests, and you might want to have her on just because she was such a delight, was Elaine LaLanne, the wife of Jack LaLanne.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh, wow. Yeah. Jack LaLanne. You have some really cool quotes from Jack in your book.
Chef AJ:
Yeah. Of all the people I wish I could have met, he was one of them.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. He has that quote that I used to use a long time ago, then again, this is a little sexist, but, "Eating healthy is king, exercise is queen combine the two together- "
Chef AJ:
"Together they're the key." And I love when he said, "If God made it, eat it, if man made it, don't eat it." And that really is the secret. That really, right there, is the secret to weight loss, calorie density, you know?
Rip Esselstyn:
Totally. Who you got on your show today?
Chef AJ:
Today is a doctor that I've never met, Michael Edelstein, but he's vegan. And he does something called three minute therapy. So that should be interesting. I love that I don't meet them. I do like Johnny Carson because a lot of guests like, "Can we jump on a call? Or can I come on early?" And I go, "No." Because sometimes if I do that, magical will happen before and then it's not recorded. So I go, "No, we'll start at 11:00. It'll be fine." And I really to take care of my guests because I don't want to ever be a mean host or anything. Even when people disagree with me, or I disagree with them, and I want to roll my eyes. I just let them say what they want and move on. You know what I mean?
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Do you have help? Do you have production help or anybody?
Chef AJ:
I wish. Gosh. I wish I could just take it to the next level and have a theme song. I have my husband, but nope it's just us right now.
Rip Esselstyn:
That's good. So it's you, and Charles, and Bailey.
Chef AJ:
Yeah, Bailey. Bailey doesn't really do very much. And Bailey, it's so funny because I don't really understand Super Chat donations, but somebody gave me a bell that I'm supposed to ring. Anyway, it scared Bailey. So then somebody sent me another bell that's less scary to Bailey, but that's still scared her. So now-
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh.
Chef AJ:
I've got a bell. That's Bailey's job in the show is to not be scared by-
Rip Esselstyn:
That's a bit-
Chef AJ:
... the bell.
Rip Esselstyn:
... of a bit of a pitiful bell, right there.
Chef AJ:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Before I let you go, I want talk about a lot of people want to know how to season their food. I know you love Benson's and you're a big kind of-
Chef AJ:
And Dillon Holmes has Well Your World spices that are completely SOS free. And there's so many spice shops in the world, maybe not in everyone's area, but there's local spicery. There's Penzeys, there's Savory Spice, actual stores that literally only sell spices. You can actually taste them. And many of them are salt free. But I am your dad and your mom. I'm a fan of balsamic vinegar. It comes in over 30 flavors, and it makes everything taste delicious.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. I know you've got a relationship with, what is it, California Balsamic?
Chef AJ:
California Balsamic. But any brand that you like. The reason I've developed a relationship with him is he tended to have more savory flavors like Sweet Heat and Blazing Habanero. And I like the savory more than the sweet. But gosh, I love vinegar. It's delicious, And also fresh herbs. That's such a great way to season your food. I made a fresh herb chutney. The recipes in the book that you showed earlier. Because I had a bunch of leftover herbs from another recipe. I had some mint, I had some Italian parsley, I had some cilantro. And I threw it in the blender with a jalapeno pepper, a couple of dates, and some lime juice. And it was amazing. I put it on some pasta that was made out of kohlrabi, and it was delicious. Herbs and spices, roasted garlic. Food does not have to be bland and boring. It can have as much flavor as you want, but I think spices are the spice of life.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. One of the signature dishes in all of my cookbooks is the Raise the Roof Sweet Potato Lasagna. What are two or three of your just most popular recipes that people are screaming for?
Chef AJ:
Okay. I know that your lasagna's good, but I want to have a cook off with you one day.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay.
Chef AJ:
Mine.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
Chef AJ:
That's one thing. I actually want to do an Iron Chef.
Rip Esselstyn:
So that's-
Chef AJ:
That's one of my-
Rip Esselstyn:
But that's Chef AJ's Disappearing Lasagna.
Chef AJ:
Yeah. And that's one of my most popular. And so I teach at a spa in Tecate, Mexico called Rancho La Puerta, hands on cooking and the recipe that is always a show stopper that we do in every class, even though every class has to be different, is the stuffed mushrooms. And that's the one that your mom ate 13 of them. And that's why she got so full. Because we didn't do the low fat version with the garbanzo beans. We did the high fat version with the pine nuts. And that one, everybody likes. Regular eaters, sad eaters. So the pesto stuffed mushroom is one and pretty much all the desserts, I don't know which one would they-
Rip Esselstyn:
What about the Hail to the Kale?
Chef AJ:
Well, that one was actually sold at Whole Foods for a while in Pasadena when they had a Chef AJ designated salad bar. So that was really, really popular. But you know, like the chocolate desserts, like the-
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh my.
Chef AJ:
... chocolate mousse tort and that's just nuts and dates. Yes, nuts are calorically dense, but if there's no flour in it, or sugar, and people do that one quite a bit.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Do you ever go out to eat at Sharky's or something like that?
Chef AJ:
No, I-
Rip Esselstyn:
Isn't there a-
Chef AJ:
... we don't have-
Rip Esselstyn:
Isn't there an item on the menu that-
Chef AJ:
Yeah, that was a funny story. In 2010, when I broke my knee, I was going for swimming rehab at Valley College. And I would get so hungry being in the pool for two hours, so I'd go to Sharky's and they'd always make a mistake. I'd come home. There would be salmon in my burrito or cheese. And I finally gave up. And the CEO contacted me, came to my cooking class. I explained that organic and vegan are not the same thing. So they created something that for 10 years was on the secret menu, the AJ Burrito, which then became the AJ Bowl and the AJ Plate, unfortunately in the desert, we don't have a Sharky's.
Rip Esselstyn:
I know the last time I was there, I went to Sharky's and I had the AJ Burrito. It was awesome.
Chef AJ:
It's delicious. It's broccoli, and beans, and rice-
Rip Esselstyn:
I-
Chef AJ:
... and pico de gallo.
Rip Esselstyn:
And I was clueless. I had no idea. And I was staying with the Nelson's, Jeff, and Sabrina, and the twins. And that's where we went. We had a delicious meal.
Chef AJ:
I know. And I get nothing from that except they're using my name, but I'm so happy because it really is yummy.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Is there a difference between garbanzo beans and chickpeas?
Chef AJ:
Same thing.
Rip Esselstyn:
I know.
Chef AJ:
It's like is there a difference between green onions and scallions? As far as I know, they're the same thing.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. AJ, it is so fantastic to see you. I am so thrilled with where you've landed. You've got your own place. You got your own show. You're just changing people's lives, left, right, and center. It's a beautiful thing. If people want to know more, where can they find you? What's all your info?
Chef AJ:
Well, my website is my name, chefaj.com. But if you show up on YouTube, 24-7, any day of the week at 11:00 AM Pacific time, I'm going to be live with somebody. And I got your mom and your sister booked for August already for their next book.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh, good. Yeah. That's great. And you got over 150,000 followers on your YouTube channel.
Chef AJ:
It was the pandemic, because it wasn't that high and it's growing slowly and steadily.
Rip Esselstyn:
That's fantastic.
Chef AJ:
Thank you.
Rip Esselstyn:
Huge, huge success. 10th anniversary, Unprocessed. What a great name. So plant exclusive Chef AJ, Unprocessed. Hm. Delicious. All right. Hey, will you do the sign off with me?
Chef AJ:
Yep.
Rip Esselstyn:
Peace.
Chef AJ:
Peace.
Rip Esselstyn:
Engine two.
Chef AJ:
Engine two.
Rip Esselstyn:
Keep it PLANTSTRONG.
Chef AJ:
PLANTSTRONG, baby.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Kale, yeah.
Chef AJ:
Yeah. Eat your damn kale.
Rip Esselstyn:
I think every day is a treat day when you're learning from Chef AJ. The latest release of Unprocessed is out now and we'll be sure to link all of those resources and the show notes on the episode page of plantstrong podcast.com. We'll see y'all next week. Until then find that why that makes you cry and keep it PLANTSTRONG.
Rip Esselstyn:
The PLANTSTRONG Podcast team includes Carrie Barrett, Laurie Kortowich, Amy Mackey, Patrick Gavin and Wade Clark. This season is dedicated to all of those courageous truth seekers, who weren't afraid to look through the lens with clear vision and hold firm to a higher truth, most notably my parents, Dr. Caldwell D. Esselstyn, Jr. And Anne Crile Esselstyn. Thanks for listening.
