#117 David Goldman - Get the Best Out of Your Body by Changing Your Game
It has been two years since The Game Changers documentary debuted in the fall of 2019. Since then, an estimated 100 million people in more than 190 countries have watched the film, making it one of the most-watched documentaries of all time. In fact, it even gave birth to a phenomenon dubbed, “The Game Changers Effect” for the way it influenced eating behaviors across the globe.
Today, Rip revisits the film and talks about nutrition and performance with the Chief Science Advisor of The Game Changers, David Goldman. David was born for this role as a sports nutritionist and exercise physiologist because the takeaways of the film fall right at the intersection of performance, health, and the benefits of a plant-based diet.
Goldman was the one who crossed all of the “t’s” and dotted all of the “i’s” on the science and research behind the film, so if you’re looking to gain an edge in your performance while becoming a better steward of the environment, you’ll love this conversation.
It doesn’t matter if you’re training for a triathlon or seeking the energy to enjoy a day with your grandkids, becoming plantstrong is a true game-changer.
Key Takeaways:
Protein - a plant-based performance conversation wouldn't be complete without a discussion on protein - the amount, need, and best ways of hitting those numbers
Why David was born for this role as Chief Science Advisor of the film and what that entailed when piecing together the movie
Supplements and vitamins - what does the average person need?
Finding the self-discipline to stick with a whole food, plant-based diet
Why a diet that is predominantly plant-based is becoming optimal for athletes and those seeking an edge in performance
The trickle down effect for better longevity, overall health, and being stewards of the environment
About David Goldman, MS, RD, CSSD, CSCS
David Goldman, MS, RD, CSSD, CSCS is a sports nutritionist and exercise physiologist whose clients include collegiate, professional, and Olympic athletes. He was the Chief Science Advisor for The Game Changers Documentary
Episode Resources
Join us for the next Rip’s Rescue on Sunday, November 14th from 6:00-7:30 PM Eastern. This free educational event will share vital intel every man should know. (Women are welcome to attend, too!) Dr. Aaron Spitz and Dr. Brian Asbill will join me to discuss the “canary in the coal mine” for men’s health, symptoms that should never be ignored, and important screenings to schedule. Plus, we’ll dish on how eating more plants can help with nearly every health issue. Register for Free Here.
PLANTSTRONG Website and Resources
Game Changers Website and Film Resources
Promo Music "Your Love" by Atch
Full Transcript from YouTube
David Goldman:
Yeah, exactly. And going back to performance for a second, you can tank high-intensity performance, just tank it, on a keto diet. And when people speak otherwise, you're looking at research where people are doing pushups or pull-ups, where it's your own body weight. So if you drop body weight, but you're also getting weaker, then proportionally, you might stay the same. You might be like, "Hey, I'm getting weaker, I weigh less, so I can move my body just as well." That's very, very different than sprint times. That's very, very different than your bench press. It's different than... there's research looking at elite race walkers and how they underperform when they're eating keto diets. So on a health front, on a performance front, I mean, to me, the jury is in on that one.
Rip Esselstyn:
I'm Rip Esselstyn, and welcome to the PLANTSTRONG podcast. The mission at PLANTSTRONG is to further the advancement of all things within the plant-based movement. We advocate for the scientifically proven benefits of plant-based living and envision a world that universally understands, promotes, and prescribes plants as a solution to empowering your health, enhancing your performance, restoring the environment and becoming better guardians to the animals we share this planet with. We welcome you, wherever you are on your PLANTSTRONG journey, and I hope that you enjoy the show. Hello PLANTSTRONG people. I'm Rip Esselstyn. And I want to welcome you to another episode of, you guessed it, the PLANTSTRONG podcast. It is hard to believe that it's been two years since The Game Changers documentary debuted in the fall of 2019. And since then, it has shattered all kinds of records when it comes to documentaries. An estimated 100... I'm going to repeat that, 100 million people in more than 190 countries have watched the film, making it number one most watched documentary of all time. That is so cool.
Rip Esselstyn:
In fact, it even gave birth to a phenomenon appropriately dubbed The Game Changers Effect, for the way that it influenced eating behaviors across the globe. Today, I'm going to revisit the film and talk about nutrition and performance with the chief science advisor of The Game Changers, David Goldman. David was literally born for this role as a sports nutritionist and exercise physiologist, because it is right at the intersection of perform health and the benefits of a plant-based diet. He was the one who crossed all the Ts and dotted all the Is on the science and the research behind this film. So if you're looking to gain an edge in your performance, you're going to absolutely love this conversation. And yes, we talk about the P word, Mr. Protein, Mrs. Protein, and he answers your nutrition and performance questions, as well. Enjoy this game changing chat with Mr. David Goldman.
Rip Esselstyn:
What I would love to do before we kind of dive into a bunch of questions and stuff is, you've got a ton of initials after your name. What do all of them mean?
David Goldman:
Oh, it's just Jr. David Goldman Jr. Because my dad is also David Goldman. So, is that what you meant?
Rip Esselstyn:
That's exactly what I meant.
David Goldman:
Cool. All right. So let's get right to the... No, so I appreciate it. And my dad's Jerry, so it's not... I was lying from the get go. So I just, you're asking what what my education is and what-
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean you got, I mean, literally there must be like five or six different letters and I don't know what all of them mean. Some of them, but-
David Goldman:
Yeah, some of them are made up. But yeah, no, sow I have a dual degree Teacher's College, Columbia University. It's a grad degree in applied physiology and nutrition. So it's like exercise, science, and nutrition. I became a registered dietician. What else? Oh, I got a CSSD means, "Certified specialist in sports dietetics." So a sports dietician. And then I have a certified strength and conditioning specialist cert. So, if you wanted to be a strength and conditioning coach, then this is a great certification to have it comes through the National Strength and Conditioning Association. So those are my credentials. Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Awesome. And I think when I met you in 2018, you had just left or you were still with True North. Is that correct?
David Goldman:
Yeah. I had been working at True North. I still work with them from afar a bit. Just recently I helped them develop a questionnaire to do some scientific... They're basically going to run some studies and see how compliant are people eating a super healthy, whole food plant-based diet, devoid of added salt, oil, and sugar. And so trying to help them figure out how to really check in and see if people were compliant with the diet. So, I still work with them from afar on occasion, but yeah, I'm full-time with The Game Changers now. And have been for a while.
Rip Esselstyn:
And so, what do you think the results of that compliance is going to look like?
David Goldman:
Oh man, I wish I could tell you. It's really hard. I mean, it's hard to get people to, I mean, cook in this incredibly healthy way. I think what you do is a fantastic way to get people there, where it's not like zero added salt. It's super healthy. It complies to the recommendations. It works for athletes. It works for more sedentary folks. And so I feel like there's multiple different, yeah, ways of getting people there. And I think this is awesome if people have this support system. So I think compliance will be fantastic when people are highly motivated, when their family and friends get their lifestyle. But I think, I mean, unless I'm diluting myself, I think most people fall off because the food environment is a real tough one to navigate. So, is going to be relatively-
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Well in True North... True North is pretty... I mean, it's SOS-free, right?
David Goldman:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
So it's salt-free, oil-free, and sugar-free. It's about as basic a whole food plant-based diet as you can get, right?
David Goldman:
Yeah. Yeah. I love it.
Rip Esselstyn:
And is that how you currently feed yourself?
David Goldman:
Yeah. I mean, other than bacon and salami... I mean, other than I'm not having that, yeah, I'll totally eat SOS. No, I'm sorry. I'm in a weird mood today.
Rip Esselstyn:
No. Guys, I have to let you know, David is going to throw a lot of curve balls, so just expect the unexpected, right? Expect the bacon, expect the mayo, those little jabs are going to come in.
David Goldman:
Yeah. I'm being totally serious, and by the way, I had barely any sleep last night, so you're going to get some bad jokes probably coming today. But, yeah. No.
Rip Esselstyn:
Why? Why no sleep? What were you doing? Were you watching Queen's Gambit or something?
David Goldman:
Always. That's what I do. Queen's Gambit. No, I mean, I've been doing a lot of work. Maybe at some point in the call today we'll talk about some of the research.
Rip Esselstyn:
I would love to, yeah.
David Goldman:
It's exciting stuff. It's a good reason to not get sleep. It's not like my kids were screaming in the middle of the night. But yeah, I personally, just going back to your question, I eat, yeah, 100% salt, oil, sugar-free whole food plant-based diet. And I have for many years, but I want to throw a qualifier in there, because when people... When my patients have learned that that's the way that I eat, sometimes it can seem daunting and it seems un-relatable to a lot of people. So I just want to throw out that just because I do that personally, does not mean that I recommend that everyone else do the exact same thing. I think it can do some damage when people think that you, no matter what, under all circumstances, have to dive into the deep end. I think that works for some people, and for a lot of other people, for the majority of people, I think a more progressive behavior change makes sense. So yeah, I do eat that way. My whole family does too, but I'm not saying one size fits all.
Rip Esselstyn:
So tell me, I kind of want to pick that apart just a little bit. So salt-free. What does salt free look like to you? I mean, does that mean you don't do anything in a package, box, or can? Or if you do, it's got to say zero milligrams of sodium?
David Goldman:
So I actually don't even look at the number of milligrams or grams, at this point, of anything in any of the foods that I'm eating. But yeah, I mean, if on the ingredient list it says salt or anything with sodium... I mean, I'm eating, I'm buying one ingredient foods, right? So if I buy I tomato paste, the ingredient's just tomato, right? And yeah, so really, I don't really notice the nutrition facts panel at this point, but yeah, it's through really just simple, as close to nature as possible.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Yeah. And then sugar, I would imagine, and I think you and I both know this is the case, but you probably do a lot of fruit, yes?
David Goldman:
I mean, a good amount of fruit. I'm not a fruitarian, but.
Rip Esselstyn:
So, you're not like Robby Barbaro? No, of course not.
David Goldman:
No, I think he's fantastic. And I have so much respect for that man. And I love his business. I mean, Mastering Diabetes is gorgeous, absolutely gorgeous. And he's doing everything right. I had the pleasure of speaking with him once and all of the potential guidance that I could possibly offer, he was already doing all of it. So he's the man. But yeah, no, I mean, I definitely eat fruit. And yeah, it's not the mainstay of the diet. I think my diet's built, at least visually, more around beans and greens. But yeah, I love fruit and every day I'm having a whole bunch of berries and cherries and, yeah, for sure.
Rip Esselstyn:
Nice. Nice. So, The Game Changer. So, You said that, yeah, so you've pivoted away from True North. You now are working, and you have been now for a couple years, full-time with The Game Changers. Did that movie exceed your expectations, as far as how well it was received and it's now the most watched documentary of all time?
David Goldman:
I was thrilled. I really was thrilled. I mean, I thought it did so, so well. If it was up to me, I would've made so dry with all the science. And they figured out how to bring it to life in a way that was relatable, that had... I think there was a firehouse scene in there? I don't know if you saw, but I mean, other than the guy who led that, who I thought was kind of shady, other than that, the rest of the... I mean, the firemen were fantastic. I thought it was really, really great. I mean, I think it addressed a whole bunch of pieces of the puzzle that people have questions about, protein, and B12 and, just a whole bunch of different aspects from health to performance. So I was thrilled with it. And yeah, James and Joseph, as far as I'm concerned are absolutely brilliant. And so I'm really... I feel very fortunate have been a part.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. I mean, was this a dream come true for you, given your background, to be able to be invited to come on board as really the chief science advisor for The Game Changers to make sure that everything was, basically, airtight and it was going to pass any kind of stress test that the community put on it? And Lord knows, it has been stress tested.
David Goldman:
Yeah. It's a dream, honestly. I feel like the job was... I feel like I was built for this position. It's such a niche field, right? To be at the intersection of performance and health and on a plant-based diet. I mean, I love it. I feel like, yeah, it's a perfect match. I really wouldn't have thought, yeah, that it would even be possible. I remember when James and Joseph reached out in the very beginning to see if we could all work together. I remember thinking, "I would do this for free as a side project and continue to work at True North," regardless of whether they brought me on full-time, regardless of whether or not they paid me, just because I thought I feel very well equipped to take this on and collaborate with these guys in this way.
Rip Esselstyn:
We'd like to dive in at some point the interview, as far as it's like, what was David Goldman's Galileo moment where you looked through that telescope and you saw something about plant-based nutrition, whole food plant-based nutrition that kind of resonated with you and it changed your whole trajectory of what you were doing, as far as your career, your mindset and everything. Was there an a-ha moment? Or what happened that changed you?
David Goldman:
You're saying when did I go down this path? When did the fork in the road present?
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Yeah. How did it present itself? Who presented it to it? Or was it a book you read? A movie you saw? An individual that inspired you?
David Goldman:
Yeah. It's funny you mention that. So, there was this book that I read a long time ago. It was a red book and I forgot what it was called. It was like, Engine 3, something like that. I think the author, his name was like Rich Fessil. Anyway, I don't remember exactly what his name was, but it was a great book. And I read that. The truth is I did read the book and I did love the book, but I read that after I was-
Rip Esselstyn:
I know. Yeah. Yes, yes. Yes-
David Goldman:
I told you ...
Rip Esselstyn:
... listeners, again. Another curve ball here, so.
David Goldman:
I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
Rip Esselstyn:
Bear with us.
David Goldman:
I'm in a weird place. No, I'll tell you the truth. So when I was a kid, my mom... So I grew up in a family of omnivores, just like in New York, total standard American diet, even though my mom thinks that it was way healthier because I don't know... she got me... we ate, like, pallets of Costco croissants. And I don't remember why she thought it was health, or I think she thought because it was baked? I don't know, whatever. Anyway, totally unhealthy, standard American diet family. And one day we're eating chicken wings or chicken fingers. And my mom read to me a book called Diet For A New America. And I was a kid and-
Rip Esselstyn:
What... I have to stop you for a second.
David Goldman:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
What in the world are chicken fingers? Is it like the fingers of chicken? What is it?
David Goldman:
Oh yeah, yeah. So, chicken fingers. Cool. See, that speaks to that you were raised in a healthier environment than I was, or maybe it's just an East Coast thing, I don't know. You're from Ohio, right? So...
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Yeah.
David Goldman:
Chicken fingers are almost like breaded chicken. I don't think it's literally the fingers of chicken.
Rip Esselstyn:
No, I know.
David Goldman:
But yeah, it's like, nasty, yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay.
David Goldman:
So, yeah. I was eating chicken fingers and my mom was reading me this book, Diet For A New America, because like I said, she was eating chicken fingers, too, but this book spoke to sort of what we were doing. The problems of eating the typical Western diet and made a case for eating more plants. And she was reading it to me because she raised me to make sort of informed decisions. She never wanted to shield me from what was actually happening. So, she wanted me to have all the information. And so, she read that book to me. Never thought that I was going to bat an eyelash at it, just thought that I'd have the information she had, and that I'd continue eating the way that I did.
David Goldman:
But I thought, "No, I'm not going to do this." I'm somewhere between five and seven years old. And that's when I stopped eating meat at that point. But then I went to college and I started lifting weights. I joined the snowboarding team at Colorado University. And I wanted to be more athletic. And I was completely convinced that in order to perform at a high level, or really at any level, I had to build my diet around meat and animal products. So I did, and I pulled a 180. And I mean, I was getting a gram of protein per pound of body weight, standard body builder approach. I remember the very first thing I ate was like a can of tuna fish, because that was my way of breaking the seal and starting eating meat, because I saw how much protein I had and I was thinking, "There's no way I can do this with beans and grains and vegetables and stuff." So anyway, I did that. And then, so I ate meat for a whole bunch of... many, many years. And then I went to grad school, because I thought, "I'm just getting all my information from Iron Man Magazine, and Flex, and Muscle & Fitness."
Rip Esselstyn:
The bro science.
David Goldman:
Exactly, exactly. And they were great and I loved learning from them. But at a certain point I thought, "They're referencing studies and maybe I could just read those studies that they're referencing so I can make up my own opinion." So I went to grad school and yeah, by the time... so I hit about 27 years old and I realized this is just completely unnecessary for me to be eating these foods. If anything, I'm doing myself a disservice. So when I realized that I could perform at a really high level in the absence of any of those foods that I thought were quintessential, I flipped back and I've been eating a whole food plant-based diet since.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right. And continuing to look at the research, the most latest studies, and always keeping yourself informed, right? You just love it.
David Goldman:
Obsessively. So, that's the kind of thing that, when I say I didn't sleep well, it's probably because some study came out and I'm just thinking about it and I'm thinking, "How can I replicate that study?" Or, "How would I have done it differently?" And I mean, it's borderline profession/obsession, but I am fixated on that intersection of health and performance, for sure.
Rip Esselstyn:
Nice, nice. Well, since I have you here, I'd love to ask you some tried and trued questions. They may be a little bit of a yawn for you, but I think our listeners would love to hear what you have to say about them. And obviously, The Game Changers, like you said, it pretty much delved into all the different... busting the typical myths that are out there and letting men and women know that, "Listen, you can have optimal performance. You can build all the muscle you want. And you can be supremely healthy, and also do the environmental service by eating a plant-based diet." So I think the number one... let me ask you, instead of asking you the direct question, I'll ask you, what do you think was the number one myth that The Game Changers busted?
David Goldman:
I would say the concept that real men eat meat.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay.
David Goldman:
From a number of different angles.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. And I agree. Yeah. And can you talk about why, in fact, real men eat plants? And how by eating plants, you can get all the protein you need?
David Goldman:
Oh, sure. So, that's one of the projects I'm working on right now is, James and I are co-authoring with a couple of colleagues, a scholarly review on protein and a plant-based diet and how... I don't want to give away too much of the paper, not that many people are going to read it, but that if you basically were to take a regular diet that people around the globe are eating in developed nations that are plant-based diet and you just scale it up to the calorie needs of a body builder or an endurance athlete, they're... just by virtue of... they're going to maintain... if you were to maintain the same percentage of calories from protein, and then just scale that up to get the amount of calories that you actually need, you easily hit the quantity that you would require to not just get bigger and stronger, but to max out that response, to max out the size and the strength that you would get.
David Goldman:
So, it's really easy to do. A tricky piece, and I'm also putting this into the paper is about, people will say, "Well, wouldn't you end up getting so much fiber along with that, that that would be a problem, right? Because you're going to be so full, how are we going to get all those calories in? Because this is an effective diet for losing weight, right? So how can it also help you to fuel performance and even build muscle?" And that really just comes down to gradually... This is what I was saying before. If you just dive right into the deep end, going from eating 16 grams of fiber a day, like most people are doing, to just jacking it up right now, my fiber intake's-
Rip Esselstyn:
What is it? 80.
David Goldman:
I mean, it's never less than 110 grams in a day. It's like upwards of 130.
Rip Esselstyn:
That's spectacular.
David Goldman:
It's a lot, it's a lot. And if I were to-
Rip Esselstyn:
And what's your... So if your fiber is typically a 100 to, you said, 130?
David Goldman:
Yeah, like 110, 120.
Rip Esselstyn:
What does that mean your calories are? Do you have any idea?
David Goldman:
Oh, I mean, it depends. But on average, 4500, 5,000 in a day.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right. Okay. Okay. I'm sorry. I interrupted you. Go ahead.
David Goldman:
No, that's cool. And it depends on what I'm doing. If I'm back country skiing a bunch, it will be different than if I'm in a research binge. It just depends on what the lifestyle is like at that time. But yeah, I was just saying that the slow transition can be really helpful. Because if you were to go from 16 grams of fiber to 120, you did that in a week because it's to New Year's and that's what your resolution is, you're going to be in a lot of trouble. And so, that progression makes a lot of sense, but just going back to your question, it's very, very, very easy if you are exercising, training hard, and also trying to actually add mass, you just hit that protein requirement real easy. And even if you weren't eating four and a half thousand calories a day, you can definitely also get the amount of protein that you require eating a plant-based diet.
David Goldman:
So on February 18th, there was a really cool study that was published in the Journal of Sorts Medicine, where they compared a omnivorous diet, where people, obviously, they ate meat animal products and they supplemented with whey protein, so the amount of protein that you require to maximally grow. And they compared that against a plant-based diet, a completely plant-based diet. And they supplemented that diet with soy protein. I'm not saying you need to supplement with protein. I'm just saying, they studied the two head to head. And they both built the same amount of muscle, same amount of strength. And so it really just speaks to, like we were saying before, that the myth is that you need the way and that you need the chicken breasts. And in my case, I guess when I was a kid, chicken fingers.
Rip Esselstyn:
Chicken fingers.
David Goldman:
Yeah, you need all that stuff. And you just don't. And there's so much literature suggesting otherwise, and you see it play out in the strength and conditioning room. You see athletes crushing it, and those anecdotes are backed up by really great research. So yeah, it really is a myth and it feels wonderful to help crush that.
Rip Esselstyn:
Hey, everyone. Taking a quick break to share with you our next Rip's Rescue Event. This free webinar will focus on men's health, in honor of men's health month. Women, you're also absolutely invited to attend. And it's going to take place on Sunday, November 14th at 6:00 PM Eastern, 3:00 PM Pacific. I've invited my friends, Dr. Aaron Spitz, who you all know from The Game Changers documentary, he's the famous urologist that worked with the collegiate athletes. And he's also the author of The Penis Book. I'll also be inviting my friend, Dr. Brian Asbill, cardiologist and lifestyle medicine physician. Both these wonderful doctors will join me in focusing in on the biggest threats to men's overall health. You won't want to miss this event. It is completely free and will be recorded. And for all who join us, you're going to receive a bundle of PLANTSTRONG holiday recipes. Simply visit the show notes to register or go to PLANTSTRONG.com. Thanks.
Rip Esselstyn:
So, I'm pushing 60 and I have not ever figured out or counted how many grams of protein I consume in a day. I just eat, right? And I let my weight be my guide, but people are just obsessed with the protein and, "How much protein should I be getting? I'm a 58 year old female and I do CrossFit and I do cross country skiing. And I just don't know." Or if you're sedentary and if you're a body builder, I mean, do you have that broken down as far as sedentary, active, endurance athlete, and then trying to build muscle? I mean-
David Goldman:
Yeah, for sure. So, I'm going to throw all that in the paper too. You can see, this is why I'm excited about it and I'm thinking about it and I'm writing about it. But yeah, I can throw... You want me to throw some numbers at you?
Rip Esselstyn:
I would love that. Yeah.
David Goldman:
Okay. So beginning at the low end of what requirements should be is something called the EAR, or the estimated average requirement. And that's, the number is 0.66 grams of protein per kilogram body weight. This is something that Institute of Medicine came up with. They said, "This basically meets the needs of half of healthy individuals. The protein requirements for," I'm quoting, I think it's modest levels of physical activity. So that hits half of people, but they thought, "Okay, well 0.66, that's not enough. We don't really care what hits half of people. We want to really get everybody or almost everybody." So the RDA, or the recommended daily allowance, they set that, they basically pushed that out to standard deviations and that's 0.8. So 0.8 grams of protein per kilogram body weight is enough to cover the needs of 97.5% of healthy people undertaking modest level of physical activity. And that's just enough to prevent what's called nitrogen losses. So you're not just losing tissue. That's not to say that you're going to be maximally growing anything, or even... for building, maxing out lean body mass, muscle mass, the number is 1.6 grams of protein per kilogram body weight. So for the same person we were just talking about, that's 109 grams of protein. So that's what, beyond that point, beyond that 109 grams, no additional benefits.
Rip Esselstyn:
Protein?
David Goldman:
Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
And tell me, explain to me what happens if you go over that, as far your protein intake, what happens?
David Goldman:
So it's really... So, I kind of oversimplified it. I said, 1.6 grams of protein per kilogram body weight. The upper end of what's called the 95% Confidence Interval is 2.2. So basically, that means that it's totally safe from a building muscle and strength standpoint to go from anywhere from that, what was it? 109 to 150 grams of protein per day, that basically somewhere in that range is probably going to be totally fine going above that. There's some speculation that it might lead to visceral hypertrophy. The organs that pack around are sort of abdominals, that those are potentially going to grow in response to that. And I don't think anyone really is looking to make that happen. We care more about the limbs, right? So you call it appendicular lean mass. So, arms and legs. We want that to grow. It's not like we want some huge muscle gut. So, advantage there.
David Goldman:
In terms of, if you really start to go up, I think a lot of it comes down to where are you getting that protein from? Are you getting it from plant sources? Are you getting it from animal sources? Is it coming in a whole food package? Is it coming from processed foods? So there's a lot of speculation about what getting an excessive quantity of protein could do. And some people think it can damage kidneys. And some people say that it cannot. And a lot of it just comes down to whose work you're reading. But I think it's really hard to overshoot protein on a whole food plant-based diet. I've never seen anyone do that, any healthy person, overshoot protein on a whole food plant-based diet. Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
For people that are looking, let's say, to get that, they're a endurance athlete, would you recommend that they don't really need to focus on it, just by consuming more calories they're going to hit their protein requirement, just like what you're doing right now?
David Goldman:
Totally.
Rip Esselstyn:
With your 4,000 calories, you're getting all you need. What do you... Would you assume you're getting like, 1.4 grams per kilogram?
David Goldman:
I'm getting more than that. I'm exceeding the 1.6. So I'm somewhere between the 1.6 and the 2.2. So I'm in the ideal spot for building muscle and getting stronger. And yeah, I mean, so I have, in this paper that I'm writing, I have the two largest data sets looking at people eating plant-based diets. One is the Adventists out of California. And the other is called the EPIC... it's the EPIC-Oxford Cohort. It's basically a whole bunch of people in England. And yeah, they're getting a high enough percentage of calories from protein that all they do is they exercise more and they get hungry, so then they eat more, and then that just delivers everything that they need. And if you're getting a bunch of vegetables, and beans, and whole grains, nuts and seeds in your diet, and obviously, I think fruit is a fantastic thing to eat as well, you're going to get everything that you need. I mean, you can see it on the paper there, as a percentage of calories, they're crushing it. They're doing wonderfully with protein.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Do you ever, ever mess with any protein powders or shakes or anything like that?
David Goldman:
I don't. I'm not opposed to its use in certain circumstances. So for example, the patients that I work with at this point are almost entirely professional athletes and some of them are fighters, wrestlers, and sometimes they'll be aggressively cutting weight for their fight, for their competition. And when you are slashing calories dramatically, and obviously, we were saying before, protein comes in as a percentage of your calories. So when you're eating less food, you're getting less protein. And ironically, that's the time when your protein intake, when your protein requirements would go up the most. So when calories drop, but protein needs go up, that would be a scenario where we would consider including protein powder. But the truth is if you were to stay in kind of fighting shape, or as close to it as you can, year round, which I know is a really hard thing to do, you don't have to aggressively cut weight. You can just drop a little bit of weight.
David Goldman:
And so that wouldn't necessitate the same bump in protein. So for the most part, I don't think protein powder is necessary. I do think it makes sense on a convenience level for people who are... or people who are just not getting that much food in, in a given day. But I really think, especially for health, I just don't see a point to it. It really just comes down to body composition and strength. But like I said, that can be done in almost all circumstances with whole foods.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. So you just mentioned that you've been working with some professional athletes, some fighters. I would imagine that you and James and Joseph have gotten inundated since The Game Changers with athletes that are looking to kind of up their game, looking for the edge, especially around nutrition. Is your plate full helping out athletes and professional sports teams? And can you give us a little sneak peek as to some who some of these athletes may be, or is it under wraps?
David Goldman:
Yeah, I wish I could tell you. Yeah. I mean, so it would be HIPAA, right. It'd be a HIPAA violation to drop their names. But yeah, we're working with really high level athletes. Olympic-level athletes, athletes in the NBA, athletes in the NFL, NHL, Major League Baseball. I think pretty much every major league, we're working with athletes. And I mean, they're doing great. Yeah. My plate is full. I have zero room left in my practice. We've actually got a bit of a wait list going, so.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow.
David Goldman:
We're very fortunate.
Rip Esselstyn:
Wow.
David Goldman:
Yeah, the hope is that they'll be these role models and that as they showcase to the world what's possible when they make their dietary change and then they go out and just slaughter their competition, that will be inspiring. And so, a part of me, I have a guilty conscience in a way, because I think I'm only helping the people who already have the resources to help themselves. And I could just take that effort and help people who are not quite as set up. But then I think there's going to be a trickle down effect more here when they're blasting, however many Instagram followers with whatever their breakfast was, that hopefully there's the capacity to make even greater change that way. So have an internal conflict with that, but I think this is the right way to do it.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah, I think so. I think so too, I can't imagine how much you're probably learning from some of these athletes as well, as far as, "Okay, what's working? What's not working? Oh, I can't believe that." I mean, is that the case?
David Goldman:
Yeah. I mean, it's definitely... it's a learning process. And just as much of it relates to how an individual responds to certain foods that they eat as the cultural component of changing your diet. And I worked in strength and conditioning for a bunch of years and I got to witness firsthand what that culture feels like when it's a bunch of football players who are... they're going to rib each other about eating a block of tofu after a meal instead of brisket. And so, yeah, I learn a lot on the cultural side of it. And I mean, this, what I'm about to share is not any remotely scientific observation, but it really does seem to me like the culture around... these team cultures are becoming more amenable, more interested, rather than threatened by eating this way. And so, I think that's the main thing I'm learning is how do you navigate that space? When there's 50 guys and all of them are going to go out to a team dinner, how are you going to help that person do what feels best to them and supports their performance in a way that doesn't have them feel alienated. So that sociological piece of it, I think, is the part that I'm learning most about.
Rip Esselstyn:
Right. Right. I am surprised. I mean, I get it that you and James are working on a research paper. Why are you guys not working on The Game Changers book? When am I going to see that? That needs to come out ASAP.
David Goldman:
That would be cool. That would be really cool. Yeah. It's tricky, right? Because there's the scientific piece that will go into it, and then there's the languaging around it. So if I were to attempt to write that, it would come out like a scientific paper and nobody would want to... I mean, scientists would want to read that and people who have degrees or just are really interested in this stuff. I mean, they would go for it, but it's that framing that really helps deliver the message and makes it digestible. So, I mean, we have a bunch of really cool projects going on and we're a relatively small team. So it just comes down to which projects are we going to put at the front? What's on deck? How are we going to navigate all of that? Because we have, I mean, it's incredible the opportunities that presented themselves when that film came out, which is unbelievable. And so, just trying to figure out what to put in the queue. And so the book would be an amazing idea and I would love to make that happen. It's just a question of where do we prioritize?
Rip Esselstyn:
I have a question for you. So this morning I woke up at about 6:30. I went to swim practice at 7:00. I swam for an hour. I went about 3,000 yards. All I had before I went was a big glass of water. And then about half an hour afterwards, I had a big bowl of oats with three different types of berries, a banana, walnuts, chia seeds. Would you advise me to do anything differently as far as eating or drinking before I work out? And then how long before I, consume something after I work out? Is it based on the individual? What do you think?
David Goldman:
I mean, you're setting records doing what you're doing. And so I would probably have to be a fool to start to tell you to dramatically do things differently. Not to say that even at the top of your game you can't get better, but I would say you're at least doing a lot right. How long does it take for you to... how long is your swim practice class?
Rip Esselstyn:
An hour. An hour.
David Goldman:
Gotcha. So, I'm going to get in the weeds a little bit, but obviously, making sure that you're hydrated. You said you have water before. And the question is, is it a lot of water, a little bit of water? But making sure that you're going into practice hydrated is a really big deal. Now, for the most part, there's no real benefit from having something like a Gatorade or any kind of carb product, if you were going the whole food plant based route, say raisins or whatever. And there actually is research comparing raisins against conventional sports supplements and showing the raisins do great. But at about an hour, you're going to be totally fine if you were starting to go well above that, it would make sense to have fueled up before, and or during, but no, for your hour you're cool.
David Goldman:
There is some research showing that for training or events that are... it was like, 45 minutes and a little bit up, that there might be a performance advantage from a carbohydrate mouth rinse. So not even... Let's just use Gatorade as an example, although I literally never drink Gatorade and I haven't recommended that any of my patients. We will opt for other things. But literally just swishing that in their mouth, whether or not they swallow it, you could spit it out if you wanted to. That, in events lasting, really in your 45 to an hour, let's say, where you are here, that that could actually improve performance as well. Not through like... really through a neurological means... I'm sorry. Neuromuscular means. So it's really just you're getting your body to fire on all cylinders.
David Goldman:
And so that's kind of cool, but really that's... again, I'm in the weeds. I think you're totally fine. I guess my short answer is you're totally fine the way you're doing it. You are drinking all the water that you need to drink. If you had enough glycogen, right, carbohydrates stored in your muscle from the day before, which I'm sure you are going to do that, you're not going to wipe that out in an hour of swimming, you're going to have everything you need to perform. I think you could certainly play with it and see if you were to have a banana before you swim, see if you perform better or worse, and then you can start to tip it in that direction. But some people have sensitive stomachs and they don't feel good doing that right before they train. So it's kind of a personal thing. But then after you finish, your meal sounds great. You're grinding your chia seeds though, right?
Rip Esselstyn:
I didn't grind my chia seeds.
David Goldman:
Grind the chia seeds.
Rip Esselstyn:
I make sure that my flax seeds are ground. But my chia seeds, no. Help me out. Help me out.
David Goldman:
Let me just pull this up real quick. There's some interesting research suggesting that not just the flax seeds, but the chia seeds as well are worth grinding. Here, I just pulled it up. There was a study-
Rip Esselstyn:
Really? Otherwise they pass through as well?
David Goldman:
Yeah. You just don't absorb-
Rip Esselstyn:
As well?
David Goldman:
A fraction of the Omega-3s. So here's the study in case anyone wants to look into it. The study's called Chia Seed Supplementation and Disease Risk Factors in Overweight Women. I know you're not an overweight woman, but this was a real interesting study that spoke to chia.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Where do you go to get all your science? What site are you on right now?
David Goldman:
Oh, this is on PubMed. P-U-B-M-E-D. This is the National Library of Medicine. Any scientific paper, yeah, is going to come through there.
Rip Esselstyn:
Good.
David Goldman:
So anyway, yeah, definitely grind those chia seeds, but otherwise I have no complaints with you.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay. Okay. Good. Good, good. All right. Hey, this is what I'd love to do here. If you got 10 more, 10 more minutes, can you hang with me?
David Goldman:
I'm with you.
Rip Esselstyn:
So we've got a community that's called Mighty Networks. We got thousands and thousands of people. I just put a little post in there this morning saying, "Hey, I'm going to be having David Goldman, the chief scientific advisor for The Game Changers on the podcast. Just hit me with any questions you want me to throw David."
David Goldman:
Oh, that's cool.
Rip Esselstyn:
Literally got over 100. So I'm just going to go through and just cherry pick a couple, okay?
David Goldman:
Okay.
Rip Esselstyn:
So this is Donna. Donna is 72 years old. She is active. She does yoga. She walks. She does HIIT. Do you know what that is? What's that?
David Goldman:
It's high intensity interval training.
Rip Esselstyn:
What's that?
David Goldman:
High intensity interval training.
Rip Esselstyn:
Oh, yeah.
David Goldman:
Donna's a beast. Donna's crushing it. She is, she is crushing it. She could run laps around us both.
Rip Esselstyn:
She is crushing it. Her question is, as a 72 year old active female, do you recommend any supplements or vitamins that she should take?
David Goldman:
So, before recommending a supplement, I mean, I like to just see what does the person's the diet look like, because the supplement, right, just the nature of it, you're supplementing your diet with something else. So the question is, do you need the additional thing? So, what I have had patients do is where we would collect a food diary or a 24 hour recall, or a three-day food diary, so we can see what is it that she's doing great with? What is it that she's falling short with? So, right off the bat, I mean, I can tell you, and this is not going to... I'm not going to win a Nobel Prize for making this suggestion, but you're eating a plant-based diet, you're going to need B12, right? I mean, B12 is an obvious one, but I don't know if she's supplementing with that as it is.
David Goldman:
I don't know if she's getting the vitamin D that she needs. I don't know if she's synthesizing what she needs. I don't know her skin complexion or where she lives and if she's getting sun exposure. So, Donna, I wish I could help you more. But what I can say is people eating plant-based diets, and really, a lot of people who are not eating plant-based diets, also would benefit from upping their B12. We shared a study in the film from the Framingham Offspring Study, showing that a huge percentage of omnivores are also low B12. But anyway, B12 definitely makes sense if you're eating a whole food plant-based diet. And maybe if you're eating an omnivorious diet too. And then, like I said, vitamin D, it just depends. I don't know where you're at on your iron intake. I don't know where you're at on your calcium intake. Some people are falling short in iodine, so you got to Cronometer that for me. You got to enter your diet into the Cronometer. C-R-O-N-O-M-E-T-E-R. It's a really solid way to visualize how close or far you're getting to your recommendations. So, I would say to do that. Let's take it from there.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay. All right. Hey, so let's see if we can... Since this is the Goldman grab bag of questions, so let's see. Let's see. And I know this is going to be tough for you, but let's see if we can keep the answers to under a minute. Okay?
David Goldman:
All right.
Rip Esselstyn:
That's the goal. That's the goal.
David Goldman:
Wish me luck. Wish me luck. I get long winded.
Rip Esselstyn:
All right, this is from Paul. He wants to know, is there any truth that vitamin A and vitamin E are more available and better from animal proteins versus plant proteins? And I have no idea.
David Goldman:
I mean, it's a good question, but under a minute, Rip, man.
Rip Esselstyn:
I'm just throwing it out there.
David Goldman:
On world peace, man. Okay. So yes. I mean, vitamin A, you get through retinol in animal foods. And in plant foods, you're going to get things like beta carotene, which are precursors. And so you, yes, you're going to absorb more retinol. There's a way to sort of convert all these, what's called RAE and sort of you're turning these into equivalents. And the answer is, yes, you absorb it more from animal foods, but if you're eating a regular, healthy, whole food plant-based diet, you're going to get so much of those vitamin A precursors that it's just irrelevant. It just doesn't matter. You're going to get everything that you need. It doesn't matter. You don't need to take more bio-available vitamin A through animal food. It's just not necessary.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, it's interesting. I mean, you talk about... I mean, people talk about something that's more bio-available in animals than it is plants, but that's not necessarily a good thing.
David Goldman:
Exactly.
Rip Esselstyn:
When I had Colin Campbell on the podcast, he was saying how the bio-availability of the protein in animals may be better, but that's actually a bad thing. And they went on to explain why it's not a good thing. And so it's almost like plants, if it's not that bio-available, there's a reason why.
David Goldman:
Right. Exactly. And with vitamin A and E it's a perfect example, because those are fat-soluble vitamins. And so you're going to absorb them. They're going to store in your fat. It's not like a B vitamin where you just urinate excess out. So yeah, it makes sense to not want to load up too much of that.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
David Goldman:
And so I agree you completely. And there are certain mechanisms, it's really interesting, where with plant based foods like iron, plant-based iron, so non-heme iron, you're going to absorb more of it when you have lower stores and you're going to absorb less when you have more replete stores. So do you want to just jam in heme iron, regardless of whether you need it? So yeah, I think, I mean, this is... We're way over our minute, but yeah. I mean, to answer that... And as far as vitamin E is concerned though, no. You get mixed to tocopherols in a plant-based diet. And I'm not excited about any different form of vitamin E you're going to get in animal foods. You're going to get plenty from nuts and seeds, for example, in a plant-based diet.
Rip Esselstyn:
Nina wants to know, this is for both you and me, but I'm going to throw it to you. Where do you guys get your self-discipline from?
David Goldman:
Oh wait, you go first. You go first.
Rip Esselstyn:
To me it's not self discipline. To me, this is just a mindset that I have created. And because of all the reasons, all the things that a plant-based diet gives me, it's not a discipline. I guess in some way, shape, or form, it is a discipline, but it is... it gives me back so much that it's not a chore and it doesn't feel like work. So, now your turn. Now your turn.
David Goldman:
Yeah. I was just trying to see if I could draft off of your answer. But yeah, I mean, it doesn't feel, like you said, it doesn't feel like a discipline. I think about how I have a six year old and a five year old. This is just one area from which I draw strength to do this. They're watching every single thing that I do. And for me to be able to be an example for them of... how can I make it easy for them to be healthy and for them to be as athletic as they want to be? It's just real easy. I take a huge amount of pride in leading by example for them. And the same thing with my patients and same thing with my friends. That whole notion of be the change you wish to see.
David Goldman:
I don't know. I would have a hard time... I'm not saying that other people can't do it differently, but for me I take a huge amount of pride in eating in a way that would support everyone on earth, getting all the food that they need to eat to be healthy. And so, I guess I don't look at it like... I think discipline speaks to, "This is really hard to do and I have to get myself to do it." For me it's like, I think this comes down to how I define myself. So, when you begin with that, and then you work from there, it's sort of easy. It'd be hard to do differently.
Rip Esselstyn:
Beautiful. We went over our minute again, but let's see if we can-
David Goldman:
I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm excited.
Rip Esselstyn:
No, no, it was a combination of both of us. So Sarah wants to know... And then I'm going to combine this with another woman who's asking about her son who plays the Division 3 football and has egg whites and fish a couple times a week. Because he thinks he needs the protein. But Sarah wants to know, can you remind me why wild seafood or white meat in small amounts, as a condiment, once or twice a week is the bad thing? And have I missed the whole point here?
David Goldman:
Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, she's playing sort of the moderation game, right? Like, "Can I get away with that? Is it bad if I only have a little bit?" And a lot of people are asking those questions. You're talking fish and chicken, you're talking sort of Mediterranean-style diet. And actually, there was a study just published within the last month, Neil Barnard ran the study, and maybe you saw it, but he put a vegan diet head to head against the Mediterranean diet. And on all outcomes but one, the vegan diet outperformed. And so, I mean, it's awesome because there's very, very little... I mean people are having a hard time making those comparisons, but really I think the main thing is opportunity cost. That if you're eating chicken or fish, you are missing out on the other food that you could have had that would've been more health promoting, like beans, for example, also fantastic source of protein. But there's also research comparing fish versus legume intake. And one of the studies I think we put up in the film.
Rip Esselstyn:
No, you did.
David Goldman:
What's that?
Rip Esselstyn:
There was one in the film. It was from the National Cancer Institute that showed that just one serving of chicken or pork or white meat increased your chance of colon cancer by 30%.
David Goldman:
Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean there's absolutely research. There's research looking at risk of all cause mortality, basically risk of just dying early. There's research looking at, I think it was non-alcoholic fatty liver disease. But just basically these substitution studies, where when you replace... Oftentimes in the research, people will say, "Hey, I'm looking at research on fish and it doesn't seem like it does anything bad." But increasingly, researchers are looking at these substitution studies that are more realistic where it's like, "Okay, well let's not look at fish in a vacuum. What about fish versus beans? Other plant based sources of protein?" And the plant based sources of protein, I can pull up some studies at some point if you want, but they outperform. So I would say for a bunch of reasons, right, you got the heavy metals in the fish. Anyway, I won't go into it, but ...
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay. Yeah.
David Goldman:
We'll just leave it at that.
Rip Esselstyn:
This is the question from Debbie. And this seems to be a question that we get, maybe 1 out of 10 questions is... So Debbie's 70, like the other woman that was doing the HIIT, and she's also running, she's doing cross training, she's doing weights. She does one rest day a week. But she finds that she's tired more than she'd like. And she's wondering if there's something that she should be eating or doing something to boost her energy levels. And I can't imagine that this isn't something that you hear from some of the athletes you work with, as they're transitioning, maybe, to plant-based diet.
David Goldman:
Sure. I mean, I hear that in general, just from anybody, plant-based diet or otherwise. She's training a lot. You said she's training six days a week and recovering one day, is that right?
Rip Esselstyn:
Right. That's right. Yeah.
David Goldman:
Yeah. So, there's something called maximum recoverable volume and it sounds like she's exceeded that. Basically there's a sweet spot. There's an amount of exercise beneath which you don't make the progress you want to. And then there's a training volume above which you can't recover. So it sounds like there's a few things. Either she has to figure out a way to recover faster, or she would want to decrease her training volume. And so-
Rip Esselstyn:
How do you recover faster?
David Goldman:
Right, right. Because that's more related to the food side of it. So, a few things. One is she getting in the total amount of calories that she requires? I mean, is she accidentally calorically restricting? Which is maybe a great thing for longevity, but in terms of performance, it's really hard to perform at your absolute best while calorically restricting. So, one thing is, is she meeting her calorie needs? Then it's like I was saying before about Cronometer. We would basically take a look and see is she getting the carbs that she needs to perform? Is she getting the protein that she needs to recover? Is she getting all the micronutrients that she needs? Is her vitamin D crazy low? Is she anemic? If she's low in iron, that's another thing. So, those are all things we would want to look at so that we could see how do we troubleshoot it.
Rip Esselstyn:
With the athletes that you're working with, the professional athletes, do you ask them to do a food log and do the... what's it called? The what?
David Goldman:
Cronometer. Yeah, absolutely.
Rip Esselstyn:
Cronometer.
David Goldman:
I mean, that's the way that we... That would be like, I don't know, if I was a psychologist and I'm met with a patient and they said, "Give me advice." Like, "Well, what's your problem? You got to tell me what are you struggling with? And that way I have the data that I need to help you, because otherwise, there's no sawed off shotgun. I mean, people thought that there would be, and that's why a multivitamin was invented, but it turns out that that didn't really do much, if anything. So, yeah, I think we just need to know, what is her weak link? What is the limiting factor? And then how do we address that?
Rip Esselstyn:
Yep. This is from Amy. She says her cholesterol is still high. It's at 200. It came down 30 points over the course of about six months, but she was hoping it would be lower. And she wants to know if you think that it'll drop more in the future, if she continues eating plant-based. I have an answer for her, but first I want you to go.
David Goldman:
Sure. Yeah. I mean, I think it's wonderful that she made a transition. It's great that her cholesterol dropped the way that it did. So, there's something called familial hypercholesterolemia, which is when, in your family, you basically have the genetics to have really high cholesterol. Some people have that. Most people don't. So, it'd be interesting to know where your family's at in this regard, but I would be very optimistic that your cholesterol could continue to drop as you continue to make diet and lifestyle modifications. I mean, there's no reason why... I mean, all of us have room to grow and to get better. So yeah, I would be optimistic that you can continue to drop that as your diet, yeah, and lifestyle improve.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah.
David Goldman:
What's your thought?
Rip Esselstyn:
No, I think that you're right. Because I have seen so many different lipid panels and seen what they have done over 7 days, over 28 days, over 6 weeks over 6 months. And you have to... In order to get a good picture of this, Amy, it's important to know all fractions. So what's your HDL, what's your LDL, what are your triglycerides? Because a lot of women, and women in particular, have these HDLs, David, that are sometimes like, 70 to 100. And I say, "You're 70 to 100, your LDL's 60, you got a total of 200. You're fine. I mean, don't, don't sweat it. You're not going to be able to get that down too much lower."
David Goldman:
True.
Rip Esselstyn:
So, that, to me, is sometimes very telling. So, like you just said, right? We got to see the whole picture, just like with the Cronometer.
David Goldman:
And I agree. I would be more interested in specifically looking at her LDL, right? That would be far more impactful, right? Like you were saying, HDL can occupy a big percentage of that. But yeah, we want to know LDL and there's other things too, like apoB and LP little a. And so there's a whole bunch of other pieces of the puzzle. Like you said, again, we want to see the whole picture and then we can figure out.
Rip Esselstyn:
Yeah. Suzy wants to know, David, what would you like people of all ages to understand most? Very broad question.
David Goldman:
Like in general? Like, in life?
Rip Esselstyn:
You know what? It's very open ended. I'm just reading it verbatim. You take it however it feels right.
David Goldman:
Oh, that's a great question. What do I wish everyone understood?
Rip Esselstyn:
What would you like people of all ages to understand most?
David Goldman:
Man, that's a great... I'm going to get... I'm going to take that as a meta question rather than just a nutrition one.
Rip Esselstyn:
Okay, yeah.
David Goldman:
But I guess that we're all in this together. That if I do something... people like to think that what they do doesn't have an influence beyond themselves. And so, what I do is going to affect you and maybe you can't feel my butterfly effect, but it's going to be there. And so I guess to recognize that we're, as cheesy as the sounds, siblings in this world, and so we should treat each other that way. It's really easy to a family reunion and feel all that love for all these people who we already know. But what about the people who we don't know? What, just because they're our 15th and 20th cousins, we're not going to treat them as if they were family? I don't know. Sometimes I think about if I was like on a desert island, how absolutely happy I would be if I just met some random person, whoever they happened to be, I'd be like, man, "You're my brother. You're my sister. Cool." Like, why do I have to be on a desert island to feel that way about people? So I guess I'm going to go with that. Kumbaya-like answer.
Rip Esselstyn:
I like it. I like it a lot. Pamela wants to know, I've been reading quite a bit about metabolic health and following glucose levels through continual glucose monitoring. What are your thoughts about this? I have no idea about that.
David Goldman:
So continuous glucose monitoring or CGM, you can basically... Technology has come along so far that a diabetic no longer has to just give themselves a finger prick, measure their blood glucose, and then do it a few hours later. They can just constantly be monitoring this. And so I'm assuming that we're talking about in the context of diabetes, but there are some people who are not doing that in the context of diabetes. So I mean, in the context of diabetes, I think CGM is a very useful tool. If you're not in that domain, I would just ask, what are you looking to get out of it? Is it that you're looking to just see how good your blood glucose is? You can do that without out an invasive... I mean, you can just check your A1C periodically when you go to the doctor and have a workup.
David Goldman:
Because I don't know, what are you really going to glean from seeing after a bowl of oatmeal your blood sugar goes up? Is that bad? I would say that's fine and that's normal. If you were to look at blood sugar, going up is a bad thing. Maybe you'd eat a keto diet and I think that'd be a problem. So I would just say, are you looking at the variables of greatest importance? If you're a diabetic, you very quite possibly are. If you're not a diabetic, there are other metrics that I would probably turn to first.
Rip Esselstyn:
You brought up keto here. What your opinion? And if you could keep it short.
David Goldman:
Yeah, good luck. Good luck, man. Good luck.
Rip Esselstyn:
No, no. But as far as paleo, turning into keto, turning into carnivore. It's just like the next one is trying to up the previous one as far as more meat intake, lower carb intake. And then, do you think this is going to have some pretty detrimental effects on these people that are doing this?
David Goldman:
Yeah. I mean, I have no idea how it could not. I mean, people are looking at these short term outcomes and they're saying, "Look, my blood sugar's dropped. Look how healthy I am. I dropped weight. That's awesome." Okay, fine. But you look at these, long term health outcomes are what really matter. Are you going to increase your risk of dying early? To me that matters more than is my blood sugar lower by 10 points this week? And so for example, there's a Harvard meta analysis. I think it's published in 2018, looking at risk of dying or early when people ate an animal-based... or so, when people were dropping their carbs super low, you could see that a risk of dying early was I think it was, I think, about 20% greater. And so on a carnivore diet, on a keto diet, that's a problem.
David Goldman:
And really, it seemed to be the case when animal foods comprised the calories in the diet. So yeah, mean, I think it's a bad move. I think it's missing the forest for the trees. it's chasing short term outcomes, and forgetting that these are just biomarkers. What we care about is did I get sick and die? Not like, did I get nice blood labs? Did the doctor hand me a piece of paper with good numbers on it? That matters too, but only as an indicator of those other things that we actually really care about.
Rip Esselstyn:
Well, yeah. I mean, Dr. Clapper refers to these diets as basically physiologic parlor tricks, right?
David Goldman:
Yeah. Yeah.
Rip Esselstyn:
Where they may make certain things look good and do things, but it's basically smoke and mirrors. And it's basically... like keto, it's fooling your body into going into starvation mode, when you're really just reducing the carbohydrates so much that now you're what you're burning the ketones.
David Goldman:
Yeah, exactly. And going back to performance for a second, you can tank high intensity performance, just tank it, on a keto diet. And when people speak otherwise, you're looking at research where people are doing pushups or pull-ups, where it's your own body weight. So if you drop body weight, but you're also getting weaker, then proportionally, you might stay the same. You might be like, "Hey, I'm getting weaker, but I weigh less, so I can move my body just as well." That's very, very different than sprint times. That's very, very different than your bench press. It's different than... there's research looking at elite race walkers and how they underperform when they're eating keto diets. So on a health front, on a performance front, I mean, to me, the jury is in on that one.
Rip Esselstyn:
Hey, you know what, David? Man, this has been great. I've taken up way too much of your time, but thank you.
David Goldman:
My pleasure.
Rip Esselstyn:
Thank you for, man, answering these questions, sharing your story, talking about The Game Changers, the great work that you're doing with these elite level athletes and the trickle down effect it's going to have on all the kids in this country so that they can have better performance, better muscles, better health, and be better stewards of the environment. It's all good. It's all good.
David Goldman:
Thank you. Thank you, Rip. Thanks so much for having me on. I'm sorry. I answered all the questions too fast. Next time I'll fix it. I'll take my time and get into them, but I appreciate that. I appreciate your kind acknowledgement and thank you for everything you do. You're massive inspiration to me, and I know to tons of other people. So thank you.
Rip Esselstyn:
All right. Hey, will you do the sign off with me? Peace.
David Goldman:
Peace.
Rip Esselstyn:
Engine 2. Keep it PLANTSTRONG.
David Goldman:
Boop.
Rip Esselstyn:
Thank you, David, for the backstage peak at your work that continues to elevate, not just collegiate, professional, and Olympic athletes, but anyone who seeks a performance edge in life. It doesn't matter if you're training for a triathlon or seeking the energy to enjoy a day with your grandkids. Becoming PLANTSTRONG is a true game changer. Okay, we'll see you next week.
Rip Esselstyn:
The PLANTSTRONG podcast team includes Carrie Barrett, Laurie Kortowich, Ami Mackey, Patrick Gavin, and Wade Clark. This season is dedicated to all of those courageous true seekers who weren't afraid to look through the lens with clear vision and hold firm to a higher truth, most notably my parents, Dr. Caldwell B. Esselstyn Jr. And Anne Crile Esselstyn. Thanks for listening.
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